Star Wars EU Retrospect

[The Laurent]

Basically, for me, the Force is the element of Star Wars that makes it most unique. Without it its setting at least is generic space opera.

That is not to say that I only like Jedi characters (Han and Boba Fett ftw), but that the Force is the most unique thing about the *setting* and thus it being a major focus is a perfectly valid thing.

I also still love the times when they draw attention away from the force without letting things become too generic, like the X-Wing series, but it's not really surprising that people focus on the travails and struggles of people who control a unique and interesting cosmic energy.

 

[Asuryan]

You do realize this is the order that re mind raped Reven right. A man who killed billions through his actions. And all they did was hey let's screw mind even farther. Yeah no now I have said that it does not condone his actions and he should have been punished. But the thing is he didn't fall to the dark side completely he came back to and regretted it.

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Not... really? I mean, yeah, we didn't know about Sith Emperor fucking with Revan for sure until SWTOR came out, but still, Revan was only able to go back and be his own man because Jedi wiped out his memory and allowed him to start anew. A weird logic, I admit, but hey, it worked.

But here is the thing the Sith came from the Jedi. Have you ever heard the term Dark Jedi. That is the mid way point of both Sith and Jedi.

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What a load. [2] This is not a «mid-way point» or anything. Dark Jedi don't become Sith, for they are those who went to the Dark Side, Sith don't stem from Dark Jedi for they have a very specific ideology and mindset, these are two entirely different concepts and the only one that confuses them is Karen Traviss, so good job there.

So the Jedi a Order that is built around helping people and protecting is willing to sit around and wait based on a hunch. If they stepped in they could have had the same impact. Without losing Reven. Reven fell because of his lack of faith in the Jedi Order which the Sith used.

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Nope, nope and nope again! Three in a row, ladies and gentlemen, three in a row!

The hunch, as you would call it, is a quite real darkness in the Force, and Jedi felt it quite alright, they had reasons for acting like they did. Them stepping in wouldn't change things you are talking about, aaaand the most important one — Revan didn't fall because he lacked faith. Revan fell because by the end of Wars he's grown into a merciless scumbag that couldn't give two shits about his soldiers and because, you know, some nigh-omnipotent Force user had an amazing, but hilariously one-sided coetus with Revan's brain.

 

[Ser_Serendipity]

Basically, for me, the Force is the element of Star Wars that makes it most unique. Without it its setting at least is generic space opera.

That is not to say that I only like Jedi characters (Han and Boba Fett ftw), but that the Force is the most unique thing about the *setting* and thus it being a major focus is a perfectly valid thing.

I also still love the times when they draw attention away from the force without letting things become too generic, like the X-Wing series, but it's not really surprising that people focus on the travails and struggles of people who control a unique and interesting cosmic energy.

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I love the Force too, but there's certainly too much of a monofocus on it throughout the EU, to the universe's detriment. Having everything of consequence be about or involve Force Users in the backstory is sloppy. Or not Force Users in general, to be precise, but recognizable ones, running around with Lightsabers and fighting The Sith and just...

Bleh.

I hope Disney's canon puts more focus on making Star Wars before the movies different, in a very recognizable way. Not in the EU's "This order has stood for a thousand years! Though it existed before that and was broadly the same," way.

 

[The Laurent]

I love the Force too, but there's certainly too much of a monofocus on it throughout the EU, to the universe's detriment. Having everything of consequence be about or involve Force Users in the backstory is sloppy. Or not Force Users in general, to be precise, but recognizable ones, running around with Lightsabers and fighting The Sith and just...

Bleh.

I hope Disney's canon puts more focus on making Star Wars before the movies different, in a very recognizable way. Not in the EU's "This order has stood for a thousand years! Though it existed before that and was broadly the same," way.

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Oh, I'd certainly agree on that, it was one of the more major flaws, combined with the Crisis-ology that they always engaged in.

 

[CommanderBlade]

I'm trying to parse what @CommanderBlade is on about but it keeps changing. Anyway, as for Mandalorians and being the "third blade" or whatever crap, it is stupid and deserves to get the crap it does.

Because the Jedi and Sith are the two major orders that tap into and utilize the Force, which is the mystical energy that binds the universe together. That's why they're so important. To say then that a bunch of Space Spartans are somehow equal in importance to the Orders that wield the Power Cosmic of the Star Wars Galaxy is absurd.

And why the fuck are the Mandalorians so super-special anyway? Why not Corellians? Kuat Drive Yards? The Ewoks? Traviss never gave a reason beyond "they're badass lol look at them slap Jaina Solo around what a scrub". Which is why people mock the concept, mock Traviss' Mandalorians and mock her as an author. And she deserves it.

I'm also not sure why this whole "Jedi are EVIL" thing is going on. Uh...no they're not? They've made mistakes, but that doesn't make them evil. Like, there's a vast gulf between "hey maybe we could have handled this Anakin Skywalker thing better" (Jedi) to, oh...Palpatine's "oh Governor Tarkin you want to blow up a Major Core World for a demonstration? sure whatever I'll just be over here destroying the last vestiges of democratic government" (Sith).

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OK damn it now I need to respond. All three have a bunch of bullshit in them. I like Mandos so what it's my opinion. I like the fact they can humble the Jedi and the Sith. Look if you are getting that from what I said that the Jedi are evil go back and double check. I am saying they are not the best. They are severely flawed and to damn rigid. Now i never said anything about the Sith being good I just said once that under the Sith there was stability and order to a extent. Now back to Mandos fuck Travis she really went ape shit on the subject. But when done right like the KOTOR Mandos they are bad ass. The Vong version still kicking ass. In fact the only real thing I liked about Travis is Republic Commandoes and Mandalorian Culture about the only thing. Now I will say this about the entire premise of the Mandalorian's being able to bet Jedi and Sith is because they used surprise and tactics that largely left force users on back foot. Mandalorian Iron or Besker makes sense in that it was what gave the Mandalorians their edge on force users. But again it came at a cost the shit was heavy and it was prone to overheating. Which makes sense the Mandalorians also made weapons and utilized weapons that would give them a edge. The Jetpack for gaining distance, the flame throwers for surprising the hell out of people, Crushgautlets for breaking bones and catching the saber. All of these weapons make then able to go up against force users which breaks the norm. Normally it's Jedi vs Sith, Good Vs Evil. But with the Mandalorians in it you see a shift. Because Mandalorians have been bad guys, good guys, or hired guns. Makes it different then before. Takes you to this moral grey area.

 

[Leeanderthal]

I love the Force too, but there's certainly too much of a monofocus on it throughout the EU, to the universe's detriment.

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Agreed. The best parts of the EU, in my opinion, were the parts where they focused on the smaller actors, the non-Jedi. Give me more than 50-year-old Luke and co. running around and doing ninja backflips as they fight enemies 30 years younger than them. There are other, younger Jedi! Give them the assignment!

Give me more along the lines of the X-wing series! Battlefront was amazing because it gives you the feeling of being a soldier in the middle of the battles of the GCW, not as a one man army. Hard Contact was good because it draws attention away from the Jedi and more towards the highly trained Clone Commandos. Things like a Rebel cell working against the Imperial government through guerrilla tactics and subversion of the populace, an Imperial captain who patrols the trade routes along the Outer Rim and clashes against pirates, down-on-their luck smugglers going all-in for a dangerous job because they don't have anything to lose...

Making the same cast appear throughout the EU made it really small.

 

[CommanderBlade]

Sorry for the rant

 

[gman391]

Now to contribute instead of just sniping here.

To a degree, I understand Commander Blade's preference for the Mandalorians
It's essentially the same reason why people love Batman while loathing Superman.
Batman isn't ultimately any less unrealistic, and over the top than Superman, but his terminology is couched differently. He is said to have 'no super powers' just immense drive, money and shit ton of time and gadgets. He's couched as the epitome of 'badass normal' to borrow from TV Tropes.

Mandalorians are coded in much the same way. They are not mystic kung fu warriors beholden to what amounts to space magic. They're just mortals being badass in impressive ways. Which if you get tired of the Jedi and Sith literally being the only thing that matters, is going to have a lot of appeal to it.

You have people who you don't have to be born lucky, to matter.
People who you could in theory join at any point and matter.

At least that's how they're coded, now obviously Traviss went too far in this, and we've lost a lot of nuance, but I understand the desire to have something besides Jedi and Sith matter.

Like all things being equal, I want more stuff about the Echani, I'll never get it, but they seemed like something I would love to world build around and make my own pet faction about in the event that I was given license to write Star Wars Fanfiction.

So yes wanting to do something besides Force in Star Wars with 'Badass normals' is to me a reasonable thing to want.

 

[The Laurent]

Now to contribute instead of just sniping here.

To a degree, I understand Commander Blade's preference for the Mandalorians
It's essentially the same reason why people love Batman while loathing Superman.
Batman isn't ultimately any less unrealistic, and over the top than Superman, but his terminology is couched differently. He is said to have 'no super powers' just immense drive, money and shit ton of time and gadgets. He's couched as the epitome of 'badass normal' to borrow from TV Tropes.

Mandalorians are coded in much the same way. They are not mystic kung fu warriors beholden to what amounts to space magic. They're just mortals being badass in impressive ways. Which if you get tired of the Jedi and Sith literally being the only thing that matters, is going to have a lot of appeal to it.

You have people who you don't have to be born lucky, to matter.
People who you could in theory join at any point and matter.

At least that's how they're coded, now obviously Traviss went too far in this, and we've lost a lot of nuance, but I understand the desire to have something besides Jedi and Sith matter.

Like all things being equal, I want more stuff about the Echani, I'll never get it, but they seemed like something I would love to world build around and make my own pet faction about in the event that I was given license to write Star Wars Fanfiction.

So yes wanting to do something besides Force in Star Wars with 'Badass normals' is to me a reasonable thing to want.

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Well, yeah. I like Boba Fett.[1] I just don't necessarily see the value of an entire race/species/culture of Boba Fetts.

I mean, why not use more of the culture of 'Han Solos'

Or Wookies.

[1] I shall defend Boba Fett pre Vong-war, give or take, to the end. Back when he's just a really awesome bounty hunter, or at least mostly just that.

 

[CommanderBlade]

Well, yeah. I like Boba Fett.[1] I just don't necessarily see the value of an entire race/species/culture of Boba Fetts.

I mean, why not use more of the culture of 'Han Solos'

Or Wookies.

[1] I shall defend Boba Fett pre Vong-war, give or take, to the end.

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They did at least for the Wookies. The only reason Chewie stayed with Han was because of a life debt

 

[CommanderBlade]

Also where hell did the last comment come from on the quote from The Laurent cause I don't see it in his post.

 

[Leeanderthal]

Now to contribute instead of just sniping here.

To a degree, I understand Commander Blade's preference for the Mandalorians
It's essentially the same reason why people love Batman while loathing Superman.
Batman isn't ultimately any less unrealistic, and over the top than Superman, but his terminology is couched differently. He is said to have 'no super powers' just immense drive, money and shit ton of time and gadgets. He's couched as the epitome of 'badass normal' to borrow from TV Tropes.

Mandalorians are coded in much the same way. They are not mystic kung fu warriors beholden to what amounts to space magic. They're just mortals being badass in impressive ways. Which if you get tired of the Jedi and Sith literally being the only thing that matters, is going to have a lot of appeal to it.

You have people who you don't have to be born lucky, to matter.
People who you could in theory join at any point and matter.

At least that's how they're coded, now obviously Traviss went too far in this, and we've lost a lot of nuance, but I understand the desire to have something besides Jedi and Sith matter.

Like all things being equal, I want more stuff about the Echani, I'll never get it, but they seemed like something I would love to world build around and make my own pet faction about in the event that I was given license to write Star Wars Fanfiction.

So yes wanting to do something besides Force in Star Wars with 'Badass normals' is to me a reasonable thing to want.

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The problem is that Mandalorians were never really anything beyond a band of mercenaries and barbarians joined together by a warrior culture. Even at their height of power in KOTOR, Mandalorians were barbarians. They were basically the Mongol hordes without the good judgement of Genghis. They pillaged, they burned, they killed their way through a Republic that was depleted and demoralized from dealing with Exar Kun mere decades before, and when they were confronted by an actually competent strategist, they got their ass kicked. Afterwards, reverted to mere banditry, clinging short-sightedly to their fallen culture and refusing to change.

It's telling that throughout the 4000 years separating KOTOR and the movies, the Mandalorians still have not made something out of themselves. They are still bandits. They still venerate long-defunct philosophies, and when some Mandalorians decided to buckle up and actually make themselves not a burden to the planet, there were still a sizable amount of people who went "MUH WARRIOR CULTURE"

If you gave them Nazi symbology, giant mecha, and made them drop colonies on planets, they'd be indistinguishable from Zeon.

If you want a "badass normal" to look up to, I would just create my own singular character rather than relying on the Mandalorians to do so.

 

[CommanderBlade]

The problem is that Mandalorians were never really anything beyond a band of mercenaries and barbarians joined together by a warrior culture. Even at their height of power in KOTOR, Mandalorians were barbarians. They were basically the Mongol hordes without the good judgement of Genghis. They pillaged, they burned, they killed their way through a Republic that was depleted and demoralized from dealing with Exar Kun mere decades before, and when they were confronted by an actually competent strategist, they got their ass kicked. Afterwards, reverted to mere banditry, clinging short-sightedly to their fallen culture and refusing to change.

It's telling that throughout the 4000 years separating KOTOR and the movies, the Mandalorians still have not made something out of themselves. They are still bandits. They still venerate long-defunct philosophies, and when some Mandalorians decided to buckle up and actually make themselves not a burden to the planet, there were still a sizable amount of people who went "MUH WARRIOR CULTURE"

If you gave them Nazi symbology, giant mecha, and made them drop colonies on planets, they'd be indistinguishable from Zeon.

If you want a "badass normal" to look up to, I would just create my own singular character rather than relying on the Mandalorians to do so.

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Ohh my god I am talking about the Mandalorians formed under Mandlore the Preserver and under the Mandalorian Super Commando Codex. Now the Mandalorians in the KOTOR where badass they where also flawed.

 

[CommanderBlade]

Also the Mandalorians went through a Civil War where in the end the faction that kept the Mandalorians the way they where was the Jedi Order when they Slaughtered the True Mandalorians down to Jango Fett.

 

[gman391]

The problem is that Mandalorians were never really anything beyond a band of mercenaries and barbarians joined together by a warrior culture. Even at their height of power in KOTOR, Mandalorians were barbarians. They were basically the Mongol hordes without the good judgement of Genghis. They pillaged, they burned, they killed their way through a Republic that was depleted and demoralized from dealing with Exar Kun mere decades before, and when they were confronted by an actually competent strategist, they got their ass kicked. Afterwards, reverted to mere banditry, clinging short-sightedly to their fallen culture and refusing to change.

It's telling that throughout the 4000 years separating KOTOR and the movies, the Mandalorians still have not made something out of themselves. They are still bandits. They still venerate long-defunct philosophies, and when some Mandalorians decided to buckle up and actually make themselves not a burden to the planet, there were still a sizable amount of people who went "MUH WARRIOR CULTURE"

If you gave them Nazi symbology, giant mecha, and made them drop colonies on planets, they'd be indistinguishable from Zeon.

If you want a "badass normal" to look up to, I would just create my own singular character rather than relying on the Mandalorians to do so.

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I'm not entirely sure you can blame the 4000 thing on them. Star Wars fears meaningful change in the same way an arachnophobe fears the giant Iridonian jumping spider that craves ocular jelly.

And yes, there's what the writers eventually did with them, but I think it's still telling that the Mandalorians are presented as someone who can challenge the Jedi rightly or wrongly, and that gives them their cachet. Regardless of how they ended up being used.

 

[Leeanderthal]

I'm not entirely sure you can blame the 4000 thing on them. Star Wars fears meaningful change in the same way an arachnophobe fears the giant Iridonian jumping spider that craves ocular jelly.

And yes, there's what the writers eventually did with them, but I think it's still telling that the Mandalorians are presented as someone who can challenge the Jedi rightly or wrongly, and that gives them their cachet. Regardless of how they ended up being used.

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True. I guess that my position on them were rather poisoned by their involvement with Traviss. Personally I would prefer that badass normals would originate from all over, not just from Mandalorian culture. It's not like being a Mandalorian or following their culture/training would magically make you on par with Jedi.

Like Wedge Antilles, for example. One time Luke Skywalker admitted that if it came down to an X-wing duel between them, he honestly did not know who would win.

 

[The Laurent]

True. I guess that my position on them were rather poisoned by their involvement with Traviss. Personally I would prefer that badass normals would originate from all over, not just from Mandalorian culture. It's not like being a Mandalorian or following their culture/training would magically make you on par with Jedi.

Like Wedge Antilles, for example. One time Luke Skywalker admitted that if it came down to an X-wing duel between them, he honestly did not know who would win.

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I mean, Jedi have the advantage that they're taken from literally every culture so you can consider them the 1% of magical asskickers per population. Though I think Mandos tried to claim the same thing, or something? But Jedi are even flavored by their culture. Sometimes in logical ways, and sometimes in special-snowflake ways, or ones that don't quite fit with other elements of canon.

 

[gman391]

True. I guess that my position on them were rather poisoned by their involvement with Traviss. Personally I would prefer that badass normals would originate from all over, not just from Mandalorian culture. It's not like being a Mandalorian or following their culture/training would magically make you on par with Jedi.

Like Wedge Antilles, for example. One time Luke Skywalker admitted that if it came down to an X-wing duel between them, he honestly did not know who would win.

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Well yes ideally, we'd see people of all culture's, species and origins at some point contributing to the grand narrative.
But that would be change.

 

[Leeanderthal]

Well yes ideally, we'd see people of all culture's, species and origins at some point contributing to the grand narrative.
But that would be change.

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If you don't change, you get people complaining about stagnation and boredom.
If you do, then you get people saying, "they changed it, now it sucks."

 

[Space Jawa]

I mean, it's Aaron Allston though. Of course he'd be the one actually making an effort.

/Fan of his X-Wing stuff.

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You know, sentimentally speaking my favorite SW book series is the YJK, but God DAMN do I love those X-wing books.

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Allston's X-Wing stuff is the best. Just...the best.

It's stuff like that that's one of the downsides of the unlinear nature of the way the EU was put together, the fact that we only really got Zsinj for as short a time as we did.

Plus, I kid you not, I count Starfighters of Adumar as my second-favorite book of all time. Out of all books I've ever read, ever.

I think so, but I also think that, being fair here, they should have altered their training somewhat to take into account that they're dealing with someone who has twelve years of life outside of the Jedi Order. Their weaknesses and training him wasn't in their advice when he came to them, but the fact that he'd gotten that far at all without having learned the right lessons.

My suspicions is that they tried to teach him like they would any other Padawan, and partially succeeded, but could have in theory done better. And then Episode 2 and 3 happened, and things got worse.

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I think I read something once to help support this, but I think if there was one major turning point above all others that could have done the most to keep Anakin turning from the Dark Side, it would have been Qui-Gon surviving and actually going on to train him as intended.

I'm trying to parse what @CommanderBlade is on about but it keeps changing. Anyway, as for Mandalorians and being the "third blade" or whatever crap, it is stupid and deserves to get the crap it does.

Because the Jedi and Sith are the two major orders that tap into and utilize the Force, which is the mystical energy that binds the universe together. That's why they're so important. To say then that a bunch of Space Spartans are somehow equal in importance to the Orders that wield the Power Cosmic of the Star Wars Galaxy is absurd.

And why the fuck are the Mandalorians so super-special anyway? Why not Corellians? Kuat Drive Yards? The Ewoks? Traviss never gave a reason beyond "they're badass lol look at them slap Jaina Solo around what a scrub". Which is why people mock the concept, mock Traviss' Mandalorians and mock her as an author. And she deserves it.

I'm also not sure why this whole "Jedi are EVIL" thing is going on. Uh...no they're not? They've made mistakes, but that doesn't make them evil. Like, there's a vast gulf between "hey maybe we could have handled this Anakin Skywalker thing better" (Jedi) to, oh...Palpatine's "oh Governor Tarkin you want to blow up a Major Core World for a demonstration? sure whatever I'll just be over here destroying the last vestiges of democratic government" (Sith).

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Basically, for me, the Force is the element of Star Wars that makes it most unique. Without it its setting at least is generic space opera.

That is not to say that I only like Jedi characters (Han and Boba Fett ftw), but that the Force is the most unique thing about the *setting* and thus it being a major focus is a perfectly valid thing.

I also still love the times when they draw attention away from the force without letting things become too generic, like the X-Wing series, but it's not really surprising that people focus on the travails and struggles of people who control a unique and interesting cosmic energy.

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The problem is that Mandalorians were never really anything beyond a band of mercenaries and barbarians joined together by a warrior culture. Even at their height of power in KOTOR, Mandalorians were barbarians. They were basically the Mongol hordes without the good judgement of Genghis. They pillaged, they burned, they killed their way through a Republic that was depleted and demoralized from dealing with Exar Kun mere decades before, and when they were confronted by an actually competent strategist, they got their ass kicked. Afterwards, reverted to mere banditry, clinging short-sightedly to their fallen culture and refusing to change.

It's telling that throughout the 4000 years separating KOTOR and the movies, the Mandalorians still have not made something out of themselves. They are still bandits. They still venerate long-defunct philosophies, and when some Mandalorians decided to buckle up and actually make themselves not a burden to the planet, there were still a sizable amount of people who went "MUH WARRIOR CULTURE"

If you gave them Nazi symbology, giant mecha, and made them drop colonies on planets, they'd be indistinguishable from Zeon.

If you want a "badass normal" to look up to, I would just create my own singular character rather than relying on the Mandalorians to do so.

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Agreed - The Force and the Jedi is one of the few key things that really makes Star Wars Star Wars, not just another generic work of Science Fiction.

The Mandalorians you can basically find anywhere, when you get right down to it. Maybe not the exact same flavor, but realistically? They're basically just your generic warrior commando army species in the end. You can copy+paste their kind into any work of Science Fiction (and or even just fiction in general).

Mandalorians do not make Star Wars special. The Force helps makes Star Wars special. The Jedi help make Star Wars special. The Mandalorians, while adding cool lore to the universe when done right, do not on their own make Star Wars special. Ultimately, if Jango and Boba Fett were in fact one/two-off characters and nobody had ever heard of the word 'Mandalorian' before, Star Wars would not be any less special for it.

The same can not be said for the removal of The Force and the Jedi.

To a degree, I understand Commander Blade's preference for the Mandalorians
It's essentially the same reason why people love Batman while loathing Superman.
Batman isn't ultimately any less unrealistic, and over the top than Superman, but his terminology is couched differently. He is said to have 'no super powers' just immense drive, money and shit ton of time and gadgets. He's couched as the epitome of 'badass normal' to borrow from TV Tropes.

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I once read a similar argument with the Batman/Superman analogy with a review for the Jango Fett Bounty Hunter game, but it wasn't for Jedi vs Mandalorians, it was for Jedi vs Bounty Hunters.

Well, yeah. I like Boba Fett.[1] I just don't necessarily see the value of an entire race/species/culture of Boba Fetts.

I mean, why not use more of the culture of 'Han Solos'

Or Wookies.

[1] I shall defend Boba Fett pre Vong-war, give or take, to the end. Back when he's just a really awesome bounty hunter, or at least mostly just that.

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I'll still admit that Boba Fett is cool and all, but given what the CN Clone Wars series gave us, these days I'm much more a fan of Cad Bane and Embo (who's awesome enough to pull off effectively wearing Captain America's shield on his head as a hat).

And then, of course...Hando.

Whatever flaws that show may have had, I find it very hard to fault it too much when it put together characters like those people.

Like Wedge Antilles, for example. One time Luke Skywalker admitted that if it came down to an X-wing duel between them, he honestly did not know who would win.

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Luke Skywalker's got The Force to help him. Wedge, he's 100% pure Grade-A skill.

And will forever be the only man with not one, but two Death Stars painted on his fighter kill list. Right alongside the fighter symbols that are painted in a different color because they ran out of room to paint individual ships and had to start counting entire squadrons.

There's your top gun right there, people.

 

[Kylar]

Post slowly coming along... *looks through thread*. Well. This has been happening.

@Kylar

Out of curiosity, what's your opinion on the Rakata?

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Their plot coupons. Now, not such a big fan of SWTOR's use of them as sealed evil in a can, but I have long since begun treating SWTOR as an AU. But their an excuse to have ruins, ancient tech that matters, and I find them an interesting historical and world building note to Star Wars. Their nice to have, but they should be background most of the time.

I did find Nexus of Power's note on KotOR/SWTOR's era, which they refer to as The Revan Mythologies, quite amusing in relation to the Rakata: "Many of the stories in the Revan Mythologies feature a mysterious alien species, the Rakata, as the antagonist. The reptilian species is said to have dominated the galaxy using exotic machinery and hyperspace-capable ships that employed the Force as a power source. Jedi heroes in the Revan Mythologies often discover Rakatan devices of astonishing power and were forced to chose between destroying the devices and being corrupted by their power."

I love them, though my favorite might actually be one that I've shilled before that most people haven't read. Yoda: Dark Rendezvous.

By this point I almost feel like Starlord telling people its name.

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Dark Rendezvous is the best Yoda novel. Everyone else in it was great to- it one of the few works I've come across that gives Dooku characterization, and Scout, Whie, thier masters and even Ventress were all great. It's not my top pick for the EU, that's Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor, but its solidly in my top 5, competing with Shatterpoint and the RotS novelization

God why does everything come back to Travis and her Mando's.

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Couple reasons, as far as I can tell. One was she's fairly unique in how problematic her stuff got. Two is she was part of one of the worst EU disasters ever, and a big part of the main line at the time. Three, she got to do way more central books then she ever should have- I mean, this was not the author to write a book about Order 66. Or The Clone Wars novelization.

Oh, and she had a serious problem with using other characters, and retconning the shit out of them- Spar, Scout, Dalaa, Calista to name a few. So a lot of works lead to her, and her screwing the ever loving crap out their characterization- remember, no research, has not read the books these characters have appeared in. There is literally no way to get a characters voice right with that kind of policy.

Still I have to say this. I hate the Mando hate. I like them because they are a people who could fight Jedi and Sith. They where interesting because of their ability to fight on par with force users and through skill and luck beat them. Now I don't agree with everything Travis did with the Mandalorians. Plus if you have read some of the books in the EU like the Red Harvest or Darksaber then you will see how they are ten times worst then anything Travis has wrote.

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Um, that's kinda the thing. Aside from Traviss, the Mandalorian narrative was about them loosing. Loosing gloriously, to be sure (at least in the Mandalorian Wars) but loosing none the less. And then the question for them is... what now? What do we, the culture who valued strength above all else, do now that we have been proven weaker?

That's been the central conceit of their narrative almost from the get go. I mean, Mandalore the Indomitable from Tales was beaten by Ulic-Qel Droma, and swore the Mandalorian Crusaders to the Sith's service because of it. Make no mistake- their badass, their terrifyingly effective warriors, but aside from the Mandalorian Wars, their also the underdogs. When they beat a Jedi or Sith, it because they were smart, well equipped, and usually had numbers on their side, and its still a mark of how badass they are, because virtually no one can take a Jedi or Sith with less then a small army.

This is one of the things The Clone Wars- and Rebels, so far as I've seen- did an excellent job with: they made the Mandalorians threatening without compromising the idea that the Jedi and Sith are in fact generally better then them.

Also, Darksaber has its flaws, but its... honestly kinda charming? I mean, I have a soft spot for crazy, but it was no worse then any of KJA's other books, and those never hit the level of Children of the Jedi, much less Traviss. Can't comment on Red Harvest though.

OK but the thing is that he shouldn't have been afraid to talk about it. Now that doesn't condone his actions but if the Jedi order was more accepting then he could have talked about it and learned from his mistake. He could have learned to resist the dark side and control his anger. Honestly Anakin is the manifestation of the saying the pathway to hell is paved in good intentions.

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Hey, Anakin did talk about it! To a friendly father figure no less. Pity that person was Palpatine.

Palpatine was a big problem in Anakin's life.

Not... really? I mean, yeah, we didn't know about Sith Emperor fucking with Revan for sure until SWTOR came out, but still, Revan was only able to go back and be his own man because Jedi wiped out his memory and allowed him to start anew. A weird logic, I admit, but hey, it worked.

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*Twitch.* Excuse me, I need to go find another copy of Revan to burn.

Fuck that book.

Agreed. The best parts of the EU, in my opinion, were the parts where they focused on the smaller actors, the non-Jedi. Give me more than 50-year-old Luke and co. running around and doing ninja backflips as they fight enemies 30 years younger than them. There are other, younger Jedi! Give them the assignment!

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Weirdly, I think this part of Traviss's popularity- she was dong books that didn't involve the main cast. Now, there were always books split off that way, but none late game EU (because bug mind rape, aaaaaargh) aside from Mercy Kill. The books in the Clone Wars era were a hell of a better about it- they tended to star a pretty diverse cast really.

But this is part of the reason I really like Michael Reaves' collection of books- their not the most spectacularly written, but they draw on the depth of the EU like few other authors, and its basically all OCs and minor EU characters like Dash Rendar and Xizor. The only big names are Han and Maul I think- though he might have had more for Death Star.

(Shadow Games in particular is a favorite, particularly for the fact I can hand it to players and say 'this is basically what an Edge of the Empire game should look like' and just how far Dash gets in over his head.)

I mean, why not use more of the culture of 'Han Solos'

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That was Stackpole's thing. And whatever insane lunatic wrote the Coreillian trilogy- I need to read those, I'm just peripherally aware of it thanks to Suns of Fortune. Also, Suns of Fortune is an entire RPG sourcebook dedicated to the subject of the Corellian sector, and it's pretty great. And is probably responsible for every Star Wars game I have ever been in featuring a wookie sized matriarchal hive species space otter as one of the PCs. And no, I was not the one playing a Selonian every time.

I mean, Jedi have the advantage that they're taken from literally every culture so you can consider them the 1% of magical asskickers per population. Though I think Mandos tried to claim the same thing, or something? But Jedi are even flavored by their culture. Sometimes in logical ways, and sometimes in special-snowflake ways, or ones that don't quite fit with other elements of canon.

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Oh no. Not really. I referred to non-human Mandalorians in the same breath as non-Stormtrooper infantry for the Empire because they are that hard to find. There's about these two washed out dudes from a training program, the original non-human Mandalorians (who are now all dead) and a bunch SWTOR has snuck in here and there.

Traviss's take on this was actually disturbing: "There are non-human Mandalorians, but the overwhelming majority of them come from one planet of human population that isn't even Mandalore, oh and the pressures of pop culture evolution has somehow made these humans be super awesome at being soliders. Those are the true Mandalorians, and your not a true Mandalorian if you can't measure up to that, in which case we want your genes, because family and breeding more Mandalorians is super important. We also adopt war orphans to make Mandalorians!" And she never once ever had a non-human Mandalorian in her books, so there is also that.

I think I read something once to help support this, but I think if there was one major turning point above all others that could have done the most to keep Anakin turning from the Dark Side, it would have been Qui-Gon surviving and actually going on to train him as intended.

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I'm... skeptical. For one, the biggest contributing factor to Anakin's fall was Palpatine. For the other, its bloody hard to get a read on Qui-gon as a character, even with supplemental materials, which in turn makes it hard to gauge how that would have turned out.

I will note that a recurring theme with Qui-gon was he was a bit of a maverick, and if he encouraged that in Anakin... it might not have ended well. *Shrugs*. Who knows?

 

[Space Jawa]

I'm... skeptical. For one, the biggest contributing factor to Anakin's fall was Palpatine. For the other, its bloody hard to get a read on Qui-gon as a character, even with supplemental materials, which in turn makes it hard to gauge how that would have turned out.

I will note that a recurring theme with Qui-gon was he was a bit of a maverick, and if he encouraged that in Anakin... it might not have ended well. *Shrugs*. Who knows?

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I think part of it may have been Qui-Gon 'getting' Anakin on some level, maybe on another his 'maverick' nature would have been better suited for a 'maverick' of a padawan; a larger part of it may have been that aside from Palpatine, Qui-Gon was one of the few people - and perhaps the only Jedi - who didn't initially dismiss Anakin at first glance. The Jedi Council was (right or wrong) willing to dismiss him out of age right away, Obi-Wan initially only took him on out of obligation to Qui-Gon. Qui-Gon, on the other hand, believed in Anakin from the get-go in a way few others did.

If nothing else, Qui-Gon could have provided a better source of balance against the negative influence of Palpatine, and unlike Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon wouldn't have been training Anakin fresh out of graduating to full-fledged Jedi. Plus, if you go beyond the movies, I believe that Qui-Gon's experience in training padawans included a jedi who fell to the Dark Side (which I think made him reluctant to take on another student prior to meeting Obi-Wan), which might have given him better insight into what was going on with Anakin and allowed him better opportunity to steer Anakin in the right direction.

Maybe not a sure thing, but I don't imagine it could have wound up worse; unless Order 66 happened anyway but without Anakin and Padme getting together somehow resulting in a lack of Luke and Leia to help save the galaxy later on.

 

[Ser_Serendipity]

It's not my top pick for the EU, that's Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor, but its solidly in my top 5, competing with Shatterpoint and the RotS novelization

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Always of two minds about Mindor. It's beautifully written (Stover) but it's also just kinda... weird. And not a good weird, but a kind of jilted, anachronistic weird. It's tough to put my finger on: I'd probably have to reread it and give a little review.

Revenge of the Sith though, jeez, no contest. Just a beautiful book.

 

[Kylar]

Always of two minds about Mindor. It's beautifully written (Stover) but it's also just kinda... weird. And not a good weird, but a kind of jilted, anachronistic weird. It's tough to put my finger on: I'd probably have to reread it and give a little review.

Revenge of the Sith though, jeez, no contest. Just a beautiful book.

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Not going to lie, its the space battle in Mindor- that thing was beautiful.

 

[De3ta]

I liked the Mandalorians when they were just Space Mongols that became space Mongolia.