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Star Wars EU Retrospect

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OK let me stop you in your tracks. The Jedi order has accepted people and taught them who where older then Anakin. Yet they succeed although Reven is tit for tat on that. But anyways the Clone Wars showed that the Jedi where too rigid and complacent. Also even though they kept the Republic together for centuries if the Jedi never existed the Sith wouldn't either. Also the argument that if it wasn't for the Jedi the Republic would have fell. Hmmm news flash the Jedi Order in the Mandalorian wars actually willing to sit on their asses. Reven and his followers defied the Council. When if the Jedi Order had intervened in the first place they could have saved billions instead they waited and waited. Which lead to Reven basically saying screw this. Which also lead to his fall.
 
CommanderBlade said:
OK let me stop you in your tracks. The Jedi order has accepted people and taught them who where older then Anakin. Yet they succeed although Reven is tit for tat on that. But anyways the Clone Wars showed that the Jedi where too rigid and complacent. Also even though they kept the Republic together for centuries if the Jedi never existed the Sith wouldn't either. Also the argument that if it wasn't for the Jedi the Republic would have fell. Hmmm news flash the Jedi Order in the Mandalorian wars actually willing to sit on their asses. Reven and his followers defied the Council. When if the Jedi Order had intervened in the first place they could have saved billions instead they waited and waited. Which lead to Reven basically saying screw this. Which also lead to his fall.
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Wait...before you said that Movies were the primary canon, and now you're primarily and exclusively citing a video game set thousands of years before the earliest movie?
 
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Melancholeric said:
You know, I really can't tell whether you are trolling or not. :(
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The Laurent said:
I think so, but I also think that, being fair here, they should have altered their training somewhat to take into account that they're dealing with someone who has twelve years of life outside of the Jedi Order. Their weaknesses and training him wasn't in their advice when he came to them, but the fact that he'd gotten that far at all without having learned the right lessons.
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Well, that's fair.
 
The Laurent said:
Wait...before you said that Movies were the primary canon, and now you're primarily citing a video game set thousands of years before the earliest movie?
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When talking about stuff that happened in both film and Novel yes movies take the gold. But when talking about stuff that doesn't take place in a movie then it's a different thing.
 
CommanderBlade said:
When talking about stuff that happened in both film and Novel yes movies take the gold. But when talking about stuff that doesn't take place in a movie then it's a different thing.
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And I was, in deference to your statements, debating you by talking about things gleaned from the movies alone.

You objected to the Jedi philosophy, and I explained its benefits and failings from the perspective of the movies, trying not to allow novels to influence my viewpoint in this regard. You then...talked about a video game as proof that the Jedi weren't protecting the Republic and that if good force users didn't exist as a group, evil ones wouldn't either.
 
CommanderBlade said:
Also even though they kept the Republic together for centuries if the Jedi never existed the Sith wouldn't either.
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What a load. This is like saying Batman's supervillians wouldn't exist without Batman — there just would be assholes by different names and no one to stop them.
CommanderBlade said:
Also the argument that if it wasn't for the Jedi the Republic would have fell. Hmmm news flash the Jedi Order in the Mandalorian wars actually willing to sit on their asses. Reven and his followers defied the Council. When if the Jedi Order had intervened in the first place they could have saved billions instead they waited and waited.
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Yeah... One little thing though — the Jedi Council wanted to wait this out because they believed there was something bigger going on behind the Mandalorians.

And they were totally fucking right.
 
Like, briefly back to 'Anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering.'

Look at Episode 2. Do you think that Yoda wasn't a little angry at Count Dooku? People he'd known their entire lives (because he's over nine hundred years in Episode 6, and Episode 2 wasn't that long ago. Being polite I'm literally not going to look up his age) have died on this day, fighting to save the Republic they serve. Dooku has carved up Anakin and Obi-Wan for their trouble.

The look on his face is not the look of a happy man. And yet he controls these emotions, does not allow them to control him, and absolutely kicks ass, but knows when to stop and save those he is trying to protect rather than chasing after Dooku in fury and anger and allowing two people who are under his authority to die.

Meanwhile, earlier in the movie, Anakin gets so angry and hateful at the death of his mother that he allows these emotions to control him. He kills dozens and dozens of people, including women and children.

The former instance of anger is perfectly understandable and justified within the Jedi Code, the latter, which was the first step on his road to the dark side and involved a disgusting and horrific crime committed for no reason other than hate and impotent rage...was not. Because in the latter case, Anakin lacked self-control, and from that he and many others suffered. And this suffering was certainly dark.

That's the context you should view those lines in, for instance.
 
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Melancholeric said:
What a load. This is like saying Batman's supervillians wouldn't exist without Batman — there just would be assholes by different names and no one to stop them.


Yeah... One little thing though — the Jedi Council wanted to wait this out because they believed there was something bigger going on behind the Mandalorians.

And they were totally fucking right.
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But here is the thing the Sith came from the Jedi. Have you ever heard the term Dark Jedi. That is the mid way point of both Sith and Jedi. Now trying to compare the mess that is the Jedi and Sith to Batman is not a effective argument.

So the Jedi a Order that is built around helping people and protecting is willing to sit around and wait based on a hunch. If they stepped in they could have had the same impact. Without losing Reven. Reven fell because of his lack of faith in the Jedi Order which the Sith used.

The Laurent said:
Like, briefly back to 'Anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering.'

Look at Episode 2. Do you think that Yoda wasn't a little angry at Count Dooku? People he'd known their entire lives (because he's over nine hundred years in Episode 6, and Episode 2 wasn't that long ago. Being polite I'm literally not going to look up his age) have died on this day, fighting to save the Republic they serve. Dooku has carved up Anakin and Obi-Wan for their trouble.

The look on his face is not the look of a happy man. And yet he controls these emotions, does not allow them to control him, and absolutely kicks ass, but knows when to stop and save those he is trying to protect rather than chasing after Dooku in fury and anger and allowing two people who are under his authority to die.

Meanwhile, earlier in the movie, Anakin gets so angry and hateful at the death of his mother that he allows these emotions to control him. He kills dozens and dozens of people, including women and children.

The former instance of anger is perfectly understandable and justified within the Jedi Code, the latter, which was the first step on his road to the dark side and involved a disgusting and horrific crime committed for no reason other than hate and impotent rage...was not. Because in the latter case, Anakin lacked self-control, and from that he and many others suffered. And this suffering was certainly dark.

That's the context you should view those lines in, for instance.
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OK let's take this one step at a time. Yoda is almost 900. So he is used to death and has become accepting of it.

Now take Anakin every time he brought up his vison Obi-Wan and everyone says the same thing leave it alone or accept it for what it is. But think Anakin was nine when he joined the Order. If they would have taken him to there to face this vision. He might have saved his mother and if not he could have been controlled. This leads to his fear of loss. Which in turn leads to his lack of faith and a search to save those he most loved. Which Palpatine used to turn Anakin. If the Order tried to understand his problem instead of brushing it off with a thousand year old saying then they could have kept Anakin as a force of good. Also let's also examine the fact that the last time he saw his mother was when he was nine and freed from slavery while his mother remained a slave. He gets these visions from the force that tell him his mother is in danger. He then goes and finds her only for her to die in his arms. With the people responsible all around him. But he felt immense guilt afterwards. But was afraid to talk about it with his master for fear of being kicked out the order.
 
CommanderBlade said:
But here is the thing the Sith came from the Jedi. Have you ever heard the term Dark Jedi. That is the mid way point of both Sith and Jedi. Now trying to compare the mess that is the Jedi and Sith to Batman is not a effective argument.

So the Jedi a Order that is built around helping people and protecting is willing to sit around and wait based on a hunch. If they stepped in they could have had the same impact. Without losing Reven. Reven fell because of his lack of faith in the Jedi Order which the Sith used.


OK let's take this one step at a time. Yoda is almost 900. So he is used to death and has become accepting of it.

Now take Anakin every time he brought up his vison Obi-Wan and everyone says the same thing leave it alone or accept it for what it is. But think Anakin was nine when he joined the Order. If they would have taken him to there to face this vision. He might have saved his mother and if not he could have been controlled. This leads to his fear of loss. Which in turn leads to his lack of faith and a search to save those he most loved. Which Palpatine used to turn Anakin. If the Order tried to understand his problem instead of brushing it off with a thousand year old saying then they could have kept Anakin as a force of good. Also let's also examine the fact that the last time he saw his mother was when he was nine and freed from slavery while his mother remained a slave. He gets these visions from the force that tell him his mother is in danger. He then goes and finds her only for her to die in his arms. With the people responsible all around him. But he felt immense guilt afterwards. But was afraid to talk about it with his master for fear of being kicked out the order.
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Well...he should be afraid of talking to his master about it. He committed mass-murder, including on women and children. How many organizations exactly would give you a pat on the back for that? He'd feel that same hesitation if he was a cop, if he was a...anything. There's literally not a single job where confessing to mass murder doesn't put you at risk of losing your job. And that's not a bad thing.

And the Sith came from the Jedi...tens of thousands of years ago or whatever. The origin isn't really relevant, because they came from the Jedi because the Jedi were the first group to seriously look into and study this 'force' thing. They then had a big splitting off about whether using the dark side of the force to enslave people and take over the world was good or not (hint, it wasn't).
 
The Laurent said:
Well...he should be afraid of talking to his master about it. He committed mass-murder, including on women and children. How many organizations exactly would give you a pat on the back for that? He'd feel that same hesitation if he was a cop, if he was a...anything. There's literally not a single job where confessing to mass murder doesn't put you at risk of losing your job. And that's not a bad thing.

And the Sith came from the Jedi...tens of thousands of years ago or whatever. The origin isn't really relevant, because they came from the Jedi because the Jedi were the first group to seriously look into and study this 'force' thing. They then had a big splitting off about whether using the dark side of the force to enslave people and take over the world was good or not (hint, it wasn't).
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OK but the thing is that he shouldn't have been afraid to talk about it. Now that doesn't condone his actions but if the Jedi order was more accepting then he could have talked about it and learned from his mistake. He could have learned to resist the dark side and control his anger. Honestly Anakin is the manifestation of the saying the pathway to hell is paved in good intentions.
 
CommanderBlade said:
OK but the thing is that he shouldn't have been afraid to talk about it. Now that doesn't condone his actions but if the Jedi order was more accepting then he could have talked about it and learned from his mistake. He could have learned to resist the dark side and control his anger. Honestly Anakin is the manifestation of the saying the pathway to hell is paved in good intentions.
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He shouldn't have been afraid to talk...about having committed mass-murder? And what good intentions did he have when he intentionally slaughtered the women and children. He could have just killed the men, and it still would have been horrific, but he could at least say he was killing people who were possibly fighting back.

There are people who are afraid of talking about embezzling fifty dollars from the company they work at, and you're arguing the Jedi should come off as so open and accepting that someone says, "Yeah, a murdered dozens of people, including little children" and expect everyone to hug it out?

If he'd told them, he might have been expelled, and at the very least he'd have been confined to the temple since you don't want someone who goes out and murders innocents running missions for you. And?

He was saved by the fact that things got busy, he didn't tell anyone else, and immediately afterwards a war started which helped tear the Jedi apart by forcing peacekeepers to be killers and warriors. And in that environment, it isn't a stretch to say that the Jedi could have missed the warning signs that Anakin was getting worse...because they were getting worse too.

The Jedi Order was eating itself alive trying to balance the mystics and monks that they were (with a side of warrior) with the soldiers, generals, and admirals that they were often called on to be.

Which, bringing it briefly back to the novels, YDH points out. There's no more periods of contemplation and meditation to keep from falling apart, people don't discuss the force, they discuss the latest battle, and there are dozens of classes dedicated to training near-Padawans to be lieutants and generals right off the bat. It's devastating and horrible, and it's Palpatine's trap to weaken the order, divide and stretch it out, and eat its soul alive before finally finishing it off in Episode 3.

Amidst all that, the fact that Anakin was a few screws loose was probably noticed less than the fact that he, "Got the job done."
 
CommanderBlade said:
if the Jedi order was more accepting then he could have talked about it and learned from his mistake.
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Anakin: "Master Koon... I have something I need to talk to you about, if it's not too much trouble?"
Plo Koon: "Oh, of course. What did you need?"
Anakin: "I made a mistake... and I need to get it off my chest - so I can move on and learn from it."
Plo: "Ah, an excellent learning ethic - well, what was it then?"
Anakin: "I slaughtered an entire village of hopelessly outmatched natives. I even slaughtered all the defenceless civilians and children who merely cowered in fear or tried to flee for their lives. I was thoroughly unmoved by their screams and butchered relentlessly for hours - only stopping when literally every member of the village was a dismembered corpse. I am now a feared death deity among their people."
Plo: "I see, I see - an honest mistake. Anyone could make it really, now let's sit down together and try to figure out where you went wrong and how you can not go wrong next time..."


Yeeeeaaahhh... no.
 
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Also does Anakin get no agency in this? He made a choice too, an understandable choice perhaps. But he absolutely chose to lie about what happened and not confront his personal issues. With the Jedi Order teaching him he really should, he ignored that.
His anger led to hate, which led to fear, and then that led to suffering.

Hmm, that's kind of pithy, maybe it's something you could put into a wise mentor character or something :V
 
You do realize this is the order that re mind raped Reven right. A man who killed billions through his actions. And all they did was hey let's screw mind even farther. Yeah no now I have said that it does not condone his actions and he should have been punished. But the thing is he didn't fall to the dark side completely he came back to and regretted it. But take Aayla Secura who actually as a Padwan fell to the dark side completely. Who even joined a "Sith". But yet after everything she was allowed to come back and even became a Jedi Master. So why not Anakin.
 
CommanderBlade said:
You do realize this is the order that re mind raped Reven right. A man who killed billions through his actions. And all they did was hey let's screw mind even farther. Yeah no now I have said that it does not condone his actions and he should have been punished. But the thing is he didn't fall to the dark side completely he came back to and regretted it. But take Aayla Secura who actually as a Padwan fell to the dark side completely. Who even joined a "Sith". But yet after everything she was allowed to come back and even became a Jedi Master. So why not Anakin.
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But you need to actually turn yourself in and attempt to repent for your actions, I'm pretty sure. It takes hard work and dedication. Also, again, this isn't the same order because that was thousands of years apart from this example. They've probably, you know, changed just a little bit since then? At least they don't have the same members :p

You can find instances of them forgiving pretty bad people if they repent and are willing to suffer the consequences, and you can find plenty of people who brushed with the dark side at times, but that doesn't change the fact that what he did was pretty horrible, and it's not really their fault that he's unwilling to go forward and confess mass-murder to them. They wouldn't have just executed him or whatever, but they might well have not allowed him to be a Jedi, sure. Or they might have confined him to the temple while discussing what to do with him.

...and, with that as his track record, why not? At least until he can prove himself more able to control himself. This would be a long-term thing, though. It'd take time and focus and he'd have to be really contrite, and even then plenty of people might never trust him. And? So? It'd be the right thing to do.
 
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Yes but the point is they didn't teach him that. They never mentioned instances of that happening. Also ai am done doing this due to the fact that I have a damn headache and I really want to read Lords of the Sith and see how they portray Vader in the new canon.
 
Also, Aayla Secura was apparently mind-raped, her own memories torn out, drugged by her crazy uncle, until she forget she was even a Jedi.

Then her master killed her Uncle who she, drugged and confused, actually liked. Confused and not in her right mind, she chased after Vos and fell into the snare of a Dark Jedi.

Still not realizing her true identity, she went along with him, until she realized who she was at the last moment, was knocked out and taken to the Temple where she had a long rehabilitation awaiting her, since her own memories were all but torn apart by her ordeal.

So it's not exactly a, "Oh, you joined the Sith, welcome back, here's your laser sword" situation, with Aayla.
 
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CommanderBlade said:
OK let me stop you in your tracks. The Jedi order has accepted people and taught them who where older then Anakin. Yet they succeed although Reven is tit for tat on that. But anyways the Clone Wars showed that the Jedi where too rigid and complacent. Also even though they kept the Republic together for centuries if the Jedi never existed the Sith wouldn't either. Also the argument that if it wasn't for the Jedi the Republic would have fell. Hmmm news flash the Jedi Order in the Mandalorian wars actually willing to sit on their asses. Reven and his followers defied the Council. When if the Jedi Order had intervened in the first place they could have saved billions instead they waited and waited. Which lead to Reven basically saying screw this. Which also lead to his fall.
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CommanderBlade said:
When talking about stuff that happened in both film and Novel yes movies take the gold. But when talking about stuff that doesn't take place in a movie then it's a different thing.
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Except there is a humongous difference between talking about the Jedi Order circa 4000 BBY and the Jedi Order of 23 BBY. For one thing, the former is 4000 years removed from the latter. Another thing, the Jedi Order was utterly decimated in the New Sith Wars, culminating in the Battle of Ruusaan. The Republic and the Jedi were utterly battered, and they both went through massive changes in their organization and doctrine in order to seal up flaws that they saw appear in the Jedi while they fought.

That isn't even taking into account the fact that between the Mandalorian Wars, Revan's campaign, and the actions of the Sith Triumvirate, the Jedi Order of Revan's time was reduced to only 5 Jedi scattered around the galaxy. The Exile built up the Jedi Order after that.

The Jedi Order of the prequels is more like the grandchild of the Jedi from Revan's time. There is too much of a difference between the two, both temporally and doctrinally, to make a comparison in the way that you're doing.
CommanderBlade said:
But here is the thing the Sith came from the Jedi. Have you ever heard the term Dark Jedi. That is the mid way point of both Sith and Jedi. Now trying to compare the mess that is the Jedi and Sith to Batman is not a effective argument.
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First, Dark Jedi is not actually a Sith. They are Jedi that fell to the Dark Side. Yes, the vast majority of those who took up the mantle of Darth and Sith Lord were fallen Jedi, but they earned the title of Sith. There's a difference between a shmuck who lacked the self-control to manage his emotions and a full-on Sith Lord.

CommanderBlade said:
OK but the thing is that he shouldn't have been afraid to talk about it. Now that doesn't condone his actions but if the Jedi order was more accepting then he could have talked about it and learned from his mistake. He could have learned to resist the dark side and control his anger. Honestly Anakin is the manifestation of the saying the pathway to hell is paved in good intentions.
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Problem was, he couldn't control his emotions. This was a very known problem of his - Anakin simply felt too deeply. He had attitude problems as a youngling, he didn't keep calm in situations where he needed to. Anakin knows this. He knows that he's already known for being a hotblooded teen, and one of his first memories of the High Council was of them discussing whether or not he would fall to the Dark Side for being too old to train.

He wants desperately to be a good Jedi, a good person. He left his mother in slavery with the promise to be that person. Thing is, with the slaughter of the Sand People, he failed. He failed his mother, both in saving her life, and in keeping his promise to her. He also fails Obi-Wan, the closest thing he has to an older brother, the perfect Jedi, and knows that Obi-Wan would be deeply disappointed in him.

With all these things in mind, is it too hard to believe that he hid slaughtering the Sand People? That he was too afraid of the disappointment of those he respected and loved? Tell me that you can't empathize with Anakin there. He was a teenager who had a deeply shameful secret, and like any other teen, he hid it.
 
Vader's also in Rebels and kicks the shit out of the protagonists every time they meet. He has most definitely not suffered under the new canon.
 
I'm trying to parse what @CommanderBlade is on about but it keeps changing. Anyway, as for Mandalorians and being the "third blade" or whatever crap, it is stupid and deserves to get the crap it does.

Because the Jedi and Sith are the two major orders that tap into and utilize the Force, which is the mystical energy that binds the universe together. That's why they're so important. To say then that a bunch of Space Spartans are somehow equal in importance to the Orders that wield the Power Cosmic of the Star Wars Galaxy is absurd.

And why the fuck are the Mandalorians so super-special anyway? Why not Corellians? Kuat Drive Yards? The Ewoks? Traviss never gave a reason beyond "they're badass lol look at them slap Jaina Solo around what a scrub". Which is why people mock the concept, mock Traviss' Mandalorians and mock her as an author. And she deserves it.

I'm also not sure why this whole "Jedi are EVIL" thing is going on. Uh...no they're not? They've made mistakes, but that doesn't make them evil. Like, there's a vast gulf between "hey maybe we could have handled this Anakin Skywalker thing better" (Jedi) to, oh...Palpatine's "oh Governor Tarkin you want to blow up a Major Core World for a demonstration? sure whatever I'll just be over here destroying the last vestiges of democratic government" (Sith).
 
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