Stand In Glowing Ashes (Preliminary Title, Fallout CK2 Quest.)

When The Hiatus is Over Should i continue this from where we are, Or should i Reboot it?


  • Total voters
    16
  • Poll closed .
Well considering all you got is a laser pistol and a shotgun more meant for hunting things that cant really fight back... its actually considerably more likely she'll be stringing up your guts in her garden.

I gave you guys a chance.

I dropped hints that it was a bad idea.

But no.

You guys decided to anger the thing with tank armor for skin... with a pistol.

Your not completely screwed... but the odds are not in your favor here.
Well considering all you got is a laser pistol and a shotgun more meant for hunting things that cant really fight back... its actually considerably more likely she'll be stringing up your guts in her garden.

I gave you guys a chance.

I dropped hints that it was a bad idea.

But no.

You guys decided to anger the thing with tank armor for skin... with a pistol.

Your not completely screwed... but the odds are not in your favor here.
No offense, but you really don't have any right whatsoever to complain when players take the most logical course of action. There's some strange beast on the loose that has already shown it's perfectly willing to kill non-power armored humans (what with the eviscerated guard, or all the dead guys in the biolab section we read about). Without PA, we would have absolutely no chances against it whatsoever. With PA, we'd have at least some chance. That's hardly illogical or a difficult trail of thought to follow.

I caught on to entering the PA potentially not being our best choice, but that's because I spent a fair bit of time analyzing the updates. Not everyone has the time, ability, or inclination to do that sort of thing, for various reasons. So if you go and turn the most logical course of action into a trap, then of course the majority of players will run right into it.
 
No offense, but you really don't have any right whatsoever to complain when players take the most logical course of action. There's some strange beast on the loose that has already shown it's perfectly willing to kill non-power armored humans (what with the eviscerated guard, or all the dead guys in the biolab section we read about). Without PA, we would have absolutely no chances against it whatsoever. With PA, we'd have at least some chance. That's hardly illogical or a difficult trail of thought to follow.

I caught on to entering the PA potentially not being our best choice, but that's because I spent a fair bit of time analyzing the updates. Not everyone has the time, ability, or inclination to do that sort of thing, for various reasons. So if you go and turn the most logical course of action into a trap, then of course the majority of players will run right into it.

fair enough.


I'm actually sort of glad you guys did this.

More potential for dramaticness, character building and all that fun stuff.
 
fair enough.


I'm actually sort of glad you guys did this.

More potential for dramaticness, character building and all that fun stuff.
Gonna be honest, though; if this is any sort of indicator for the rest of the game, you might want to consider putting up a disclaimer that you intend to run this as a sort of Dark Souls-esque game in terms of difficulty and... whatever other game could serve as an example for "need maximum paranoia because all decisions could screw you over".

Means you'd get more player who're into that sort of thing, rather than, as is more likely in my opinion, those who're just looking for a Fallout 4 esque experience.
 
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Gonna be honest, though; if this is any sort of indicator for the rest of the game, you might want to consider putting up a disclaimer that you intend to run this as a sort of Dark Souls-esque game in terms of difficulty and... whatever other game could serve as an example for "need maximum paranoia because all decisions could screw you over".

Means you'd get more player who're into that sort of thing, rather than, as is more likely in my opinion, those who're just looking for a Fallout 4 esque experience.

I don't intend for it to always be like this.

It was more about challenging any pre-conceptions about being able to brute force your way out of any and all problems.



But once again, I'm actually sort of glad you did this.
 
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At any rate, sorry if this took everyone by surprise.

I did try to make it clear that this would happen.

guess I didn't do a good enough job with that.
 
Oh Immensely.

In beasties point of view one of you guys just got eaten by her worst enemy.

Um, uh. Wait a minute beastie thinks the armor ate us, so if we get out of the armor and deactivate it, we might trick it into thinking we killed the thing. If CK taught me anything, the best way to become somebody's friend is to beat up someone they hate.
 
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I don't intend for it to always be like this.

It was more about challenging any pre-conceptions about being able to brute force your way out of any problems.

I sort of noticed back in character creation that you guys gravitated towards the one most likely to be good at either science or violence.

Those things alone do not make for a successful long term tribe/nation/civilization.
The problem with that approach is kinda twofold. First, the problems you threw our way so far all were geared for violence; the feral ghouls, the group of proto-raiders. The beastie, too, basically screams "boss monster fight" to pretty much anyone; "acquire armor, acquire weapon, kick monsters' arse, grab spoils" is the conclusion pretty much anyone will draw, rather than trying to talk with the man-eating monster on the off chance that it might not find them as appetizing as it did the last bunch of humans it came across. That doesn't communicate "you need things other than violence to solve problems", it communicates "you need more capabilities for violence so you can survive with that sort of stuff around". Especially BECAUSE all of this is happening so early in the game; it creates the first impression that you're running a game with a Dark Souls esque level of difficulty, and players will react to that impression accordingly; emphasizing weapons, armor, ammo, and the like when scavenging, defenses like walls, traps and watchtowers when building, and so on. The end result is almost certainly going a near-constant escalation.
For another, it basically punishes us for having areas we're good in. Our character's good at fighting, so you're apparently throwing things that can't be out-fought at him. Presumably, this would also mean that being good at science means he'll face some sort of opposition that will be able to out-science him. If he was incredibly good at diplomacy, or at intrigue, the result would presumably be the same; opposition that is better than the character at his own specialties. There are two potential results from that. The first is, as I kinda indicated above already, that the players will attempt to escalate and raise stats/abilities further and further on the chosen area of specialization. The second is that the players catch on, and instead go and make sure that future characters will be jacks-of-all-trades at best, and completely inept at everything at worst.

Simply put, it creates far more problems than it solves, and is just as likely to have the opposite effect of what you intend. If you want to underline the need for the character to have administrative and social skills, then the solution is to throw problems at the character that require said abilities to solve for an optimal result. For example, when going out salvaging, the characters could encounter a group of other scavengers. With a violence-capable character the players could then simply go and shoot the scavengers and take their stuff, sure, but far better long-term results would be possible with diplomacy; convincing the scavengers to join the players' group, or making contact with another group of survivors for trade and mutual defense.
Or maybe a small number of people from our group want to leave, perhaps to search for relatives, or get away from the radioactive crater to someplace slightly less irradiated, or something else. Neither science nor combat would be able to really provide any sort of good solution, whereas diplomacy could help convince them to stay and continue helping out.

Something to keep in mind, though, is that our charter is not our civilization as a whole. He might not be rather mediocre at diplomacy, and utterly suck at intrigue, but Manny is pretty good at the latter, while he and Alessandra are both good at diplomacy. The MC and Alessa meanwhile are good at learning, which Manny's mediocre at, and have pretty good moral compasses, whereas Manny is more callous. And so on.

Um, uh. Wait a minute beastie thinks the armor ate us, so if we get out of the armor and deactivate it, we might trick it into thinking we killed the thing. If CK taught me anything, the best way to become somebody's friend is to beat up someone they hate.
Considering the amount of adventure games I played, both in the past in general and recently, this sort of moon puzzle logic makes perfect sense to me. I approve!
 
The problem with that approach is kinda twofold. First, the problems you threw our way so far all were geared for violence; the feral ghouls, the group of proto-raiders. The beastie, too, basically screams "boss monster fight" to pretty much anyone; "acquire armor, acquire weapon, kick monsters' arse, grab spoils" is the conclusion pretty much anyone will draw, rather than trying to talk with the man-eating monster on the off chance that it might not find them as appetizing as it did the last bunch of humans it came across. That doesn't communicate "you need things other than violence to solve problems", it communicates "you need more capabilities for violence so you can survive with that sort of stuff around". Especially BECAUSE all of this is happening so early in the game; it creates the first impression that you're running a game with a Dark Souls esque level of difficulty, and players will react to that impression accordingly; emphasizing weapons, armor, ammo, and the like when scavenging, defenses like walls, traps and watchtowers when building, and so on. The end result is almost certainly going a near-constant escalation.
For another, it basically punishes us for having areas we're good in. Our character's good at fighting, so you're apparently throwing things that can't be out-fought at him. Presumably, this would also mean that being good at science means he'll face some sort of opposition that will be able to out-science him. If he was incredibly good at diplomacy, or at intrigue, the result would presumably be the same; opposition that is better than the character at his own specialties. There are two potential results from that. The first is, as I kinda indicated above already, that the players will attempt to escalate and raise stats/abilities further and further on the chosen area of specialization. The second is that the players catch on, and instead go and make sure that future characters will be jacks-of-all-trades at best, and completely inept at everything at worst.

Simply put, it creates far more problems than it solves, and is just as likely to have the opposite effect of what you intend. If you want to underline the need for the character to have administrative and social skills, then the solution is to throw problems at the character that require said abilities to solve for an optimal result. For example, when going out salvaging, the characters could encounter a group of other scavengers. With a violence-capable character the players could then simply go and shoot the scavengers and take their stuff, sure, but far better long-term results would be possible with diplomacy; convincing the scavengers to join the players' group, or making contact with another group of survivors for trade and mutual defense.
Or maybe a small number of people from our group want to leave, perhaps to search for relatives, or get away from the radioactive crater to someplace slightly less irradiated, or something else. Neither science nor combat would be able to really provide any sort of good solution, whereas diplomacy could help convince them to stay and continue helping out.

Something to keep in mind, though, is that our charter is not our civilization as a whole. He might not be rather mediocre at diplomacy, and utterly suck at intrigue, but Manny is pretty good at the latter, while he and Alessandra are both good at diplomacy. The MC and Alessa meanwhile are good at learning, which Manny's mediocre at, and have pretty good moral compasses, whereas Manny is more callous. And so on.


Considering the amount of adventure games I played, both in the past in general and recently, this sort of moon puzzle logic makes perfect sense to me. I approve!

Thank you!

When I ask for criticism this is what I mean.

I'll take that into account from now on.
 
If you can figure out an excuse for it IC I'd be more than willing.
On our characters part it'd be difficult, but since Alessa has some experience hunting, and apparently majored in biology, she might. She could easily come to the conclusion that the creature considers the PA itself to be a sort of hostile animal, given past experiences, since it started attacking the moment Alex entered and the PA started moving. So, if the enemy, the PA "dies" (for example by Alex shutting down all power and coming out), then it might cease hostilities, because it's convinced that it successfully defeated its enemy and defended its territory. Would likely leave the PA and Alex with a few scrapes and dents, but prevent a total disaster. Though it'd probably also mean that we'd have to move the PA out of the building by hand, which would be rather problematic.

Or, if she comes to that realization quickly enough, she might even prevent him from entering at all.
 
Yeah @Kelenas basically said everything I wanted to already, but this was not obvious. Was it a possibility looking back on it? Yes. But this is fallout. We walked into a tech lab area and saw the entire place literally decorated with entrails! What in that situation makes you think diplomacy is a good option? The interlude from the experiment's point of view? 1: the mutant was clearly not in a stable state of mind, we couldn't even know if it would keep to its initial thought of not killing us. That's not beneficial to diplomacy. 2: If that's what your hints were you're asking us to act on entirely OOC knowledge and that is a bad precedent to set for the quest. People will sometimes make a choice based on their knowledge of the setting without the character knowing what they're making that decision about. But you shouldn't try to encourage that, ever. And that's what this consequence seems to imply.

There were hints, but none in the terminals which were the only way Alex got information about the context. We were left in the same building as a crazed experimentee who likes using people's guts as interior decoration. We were in front of possibly the only method of preventing them using our body as an Ikea model. What did you expect to happen?
 
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Yeah @Kelenas basically said everything I wanted to already, but this was not obvious. Was it a possibility looking back on it? Yes. But this is fallout. We walked into a tech lab area and saw the entire place literally decorated with entrails! What in that situation makes you think diplomacy is a good option? The interlude from the experiment's point of view? 1: the mutant was clearly not in a stable state of mind, we couldn't even know if it would keep to its initial thought of not killing us. That's not beneficial to diplomacy. 2: If that's what your hints were you're asking us to act on entirely OOC knowledge and that is a bad precedent to set for the quest. People will sometimes make a choice based on their knowledge of the setting without the character knowing what they're making that decision about. But you shouldn't try to encourage that, ever. And that's what this consequence seems to imply.

There were hints, but none in the terminals which were the only way Alex got information about the context. We were left in the same building as a crazed experimentee who likes using people's guts as interior decoration. We were in front of possibly the only method of preventing them using our body as an Ikea model. What did you expect to happen?

As I said before, fair enough.

Bear with me here this whole quest started as an attempt by me to improve my writing.
 
Alessandra could have wandered into the testing area by accident and seen the thing, then when it shows up do basic math and tell Alex to get out of the PA.
OR
The neck of the armor is jammed and Alex has to remove it or by unable to turn his head, if Beastie walks in as Alex gets in the PA and notices the discarded helmet then from it's perspective we killed the enemy and are wearing it's skin.

Also has anyone considered the fact that if this works then we will be walking into a dinner filled with twitchy scientists who watched this thing kill their co-workers and friends? Even if we don't manage to bring it with us we will have gear that could only be gained by walking into West-Tek and fighting the Chryssalid for it, or by the Chryssalid playing meat puppet to finish them off.
 
Alessandra could have wandered into the testing area by accident and seen the thing, then when it shows up do basic math and tell Alex to get out of the PA.
OR
The neck of the armor is jammed and Alex has to remove it or by unable to turn his head, if Beastie walks in as Alex gets in the PA and notices the discarded helmet then from it's perspective we killed the enemy and are wearing it's skin.

Also has anyone considered the fact that if this works then we will be walking into a dinner filled with twitchy scientists who watched this thing kill their co-workers and friends? Even if we don't manage to bring it with us we will have gear that could only be gained by walking into West-Tek and fighting the Chryssalid for it, or by the Chryssalid playing meat puppet to finish them off.

this is not a chrysallid, its still humanoid in body shape.

I realize that, but you shouldn't then patronize the voters for choosing what by all in character evidence was the right choice.

I'm pretty sure I did infact give you in character knowledge that this thing could beat a sentry bot.

a sentry bot has considerably more firepower than you do right now.



But still I did make way more errors than you guys did.

And for that I apologize.
 
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I'm pretty sure I did infact give you in character knowledge that this thing could beat a sentry bot.

a sentry bot has considerably more firepower than you do right now.
Sentry bot? Maybe it's been a while, but the only robot I recollect it thrashing was a Protectron. Which would be somewhat concerning (at least if we're going with F4 Protectrons, rather than F3's), but not quite pants-crapping levels, yet. We also know that it damaged the power armor, but you also specified that the armor wasn't that bad, and that the operate got away with comparatively minor injuries.
 
Sentry bot? Maybe it's been a while, but the only robot I recollect it thrashing was a Protectron. Which would be somewhat concerning (at least if we're going with F4 Protectrons, rather than F3's), but not quite pants-crapping levels, yet. We also know that it damaged the power armor, but you also specified that the armor wasn't that bad, and that the operate got away with comparatively minor injuries.

Larry's terminal entries talk about the sentry bot thing.

I also should point out that's it considerably stronger than it was when it first encountered a suit of power armor.

It's integrated significantly more metals and such into various bodily system since then.
 
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I'm pretty sure I did infact give you in character knowledge that this thing could beat a sentry bot.

a sentry bot has considerably more firepower than you do right now.
And? That's still not incentive to not get into the armor from an in character point of view. That's like saying "oh, well tigers can kill people with spears, better not bother picking up this club." Just because something isn't as good as you want or need doesn't mean you shouldn't pick it up if it's better than what you have. If the terminals had anything about the cruelty of the experiments, or how the creature seemed to target certain people specifically, or remembered people and sought revenge upon them those would all be IC reasons to avoid the armor. But instead there was a guy in engineering ranting about how cool his armor was and wtf my armor got broken. I understand this is mostly a method to improve your writing, hell I can understand why this is a consequence. Sometimes things happen in the world that blindside the character, and that's a good way to keep things fresh in Quests and keep players on their toes. Honestly? I'm not really annoyed at the fact that the mutant is coming to attack us. I'm annoyed at the tone you took to tell us, and how you acted like we were idiots for making the choices we did. I like the quest, and I realize that you're sorry, it just hits a nerve when people talk down to me like that. Sorry for the rants.
 
And? That's still not incentive to not get into the armor from an in character point of view. That's like saying "oh, well tigers can kill people with spears, better not bother picking up this club." Just because something isn't as good as you want or need doesn't mean you shouldn't pick it up if it's better than what you have. If the terminals had anything about the cruelty of the experiments, or how the creature seemed to target certain people specifically, or remembered people and sought revenge upon them those would all be IC reasons to avoid the armor. But instead there was a guy in engineering ranting about how cool his armor was and wtf my armor got broken. I understand this is mostly a method to improve your writing, hell I can understand why this is a consequence. Sometimes things happen in the world that blindside the character, and that's a good way to keep things fresh in Quests and keep players on their toes. Honestly? I'm not really annoyed at the fact that the mutant is coming to attack us. I'm annoyed at the tone you took to tell us, and how you acted like we were idiots for making the choices we did. I like the quest, and I realize that you're sorry, it just hits a nerve when people talk down to me like that. Sorry for the rants.

Sorry the intent was not to talk down to you.

if that was the impression then I messed up somewhere.
 
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