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Springtime of Nations: A German Republic Quest

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[X] [BILL] We must retain virtually unlimited political rights in the name of personal liberty.
[X] [ECON] We must enumerate the Republic's commitment to a cradle-to-grave system of care, to the welfare of its people, and to the establishment and maintenance of economic equality.
[X] [STUFF] We must grant the National Assembly unilateral power over private property and the ability to seize it without compensation.
[X] [LOCAL] Cities, communes, and towns should possess limited enumerated rights and responsibilities separate from the power of the national government.

The Republic derives its legitimacy from the endorsement of its citizens. As a result, restrictions on political discourse can only ever be self-destructive.
 
[X] [BILL] We must retain virtually unlimited political rights in the name of personal liberty.
[X] [ECON] We must enumerate the Republic's commitment to a cradle-to-grave system of care, to the welfare of its people, and to the establishment and maintenance of economic equality.
[X] [STUFF] We must grant the National Assembly unilateral power over private property and the ability to seize it without compensation.
[X] [LOCAL] All power must flow from the National Assembly and be delegated to localities without constitutional restriction.

I beg people who are both voting for welfare and property protections to stop their attempt at national suicide. Trying to do welfare while the capitalists retain the ability to enrich themselves will bleed us dry while they profit. If we want to commit to care for our citizens, we need the means to access the country's economic might unimpeded.

On the other points, QM post above is reassuring so I don't think the restrictions on speech are needed. We can selectively ban monarchists later since this is just basic law, anyway. We won't get an American situation where freeze peaches can be used as an argument against everything in the future since we abolished constitutional review.

And on devolution, I think any powers granted to local government should happen through the assembly rather than as a constitutional right. Too much of a risk of those local boundaries growing to no longer be adapted to their duties as demographics and urbanism shift.

Ghostdevil said:
Honestly
This is super hyper tyrannical, like beyond the rhetoric and how just perfect they think this system is, the implications of the votes all together just sounds extremely fucked,
Like were establishing a hyper centralized government without limit and the only thing that keeps it from being a worse version of the USSR is the control of the players OOC. Because most of the population would be learning anything political from the party their a part of.
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Reminder the assembly is directly elected, for very short terms, and recallable. We also have a very large number of political parties and factions within them, so no one is going to control it outright.
 
[X] [BILL] We must establish common-sense limits on expression and speech to defend the Republic from those forces seeking its destruction.
[X] [ECON] We must enumerate the Republic's commitment to a cradle-to-grave system of care, to the welfare of its people, and to the establishment and maintenance of economic equality.
[X] [STUFF] We must grant the National Assembly unilateral power over private property and the ability to seize it without compensation.
[X] [LOCAL] All power must flow from the National Assembly and be delegated to localities without constitutional restriction.
 
Nyvis said:
Reminder the assembly is directly elected, for very short terms, and recallable. We also have a very large number of political parties and factions within them, so no one is going to control it outright.
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That doesn't matter, the control and voting will stem based on party and media, since that is where they would learn literally anything going on. Recallability doesn't matter for the people because most of them wouldn't even know what most of them are even doing beyond party rhetoric.
 
Ghostdevil said:
That doesn't matter, the control and voting will stem based on party and media, since that is where they would learn literally anything going on. Recallability doesn't matter for the people because most of them wouldn't even know what most of them are even doing beyond party rhetoric.
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Again, we have a near infinity of parties and factions, not a single one. No one will have that kind of control because the political board is too fragmented.
 
Nyvis said:
Again, we have a near infinity of parties and factions, not a single one. No one will have that kind of control because the political board is too fragmented.
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Thats purely a function of the OOC nature of players. I was discussing the system as it was, not as it is with player inteference.
 
Nyvis said:
I beg people who are both voting for welfare and property protections to stop their attempt at national suicide. Trying to do welfare while the capitalists retain the ability to enrich themselves will bleed us dry while they profit. If we want to commit to care for our citizens, we need the means to access the country's economic might unimpeded.

And on devolution, I think any powers granted to local government should happen through the assembly rather than as a constitutional right. Too much of a risk of those local boundaries growing to no longer be adapted to their duties as demographics and urbanism shift.
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My thought on the matter of compensation is that, with capitalists presently such a small player in the national economy compared to cooperatives and the government, it won't take that much to get them out of the economy, especially where they're working in substitutable roles in the supply chain that ultimately have to sell to, or buy from other industries that aren't capitalist-owned, at which point they have no credible way back in to that position and can either piss off to do their shitfuckery in some other country or inevitably piss away that illbegotten fortune with no way to extract further profits. After that point, the only private property that could possibly be expropriated are worker owned cooperatives and things like private homes, owner-operated businesses with no employees, and the like. Things I believe should have a guarantee of compensation.

As for the matter of devolution, I see that framing as incorrect from a philosophical perspective of what this state is. Power in this Germany flows up from the people to the assembly so that it can fulfill the duties they have charged it with. To dictate that power can only flow up from the people to the assembly, and then outwards from there, such that they cannot elect to invest power in a lesser body, is to me undesirable.
 
[X] [BILL] We must establish common-sense limits on expression and speech to defend the Republic from those forces seeking its destruction.
[X] [ECON] We must enumerate the Republic's commitment to a cradle-to-grave system of care, to the welfare of its people, and to the establishment and maintenance of economic equality.
[X] [STUFF] We must grant the National Assembly unilateral power over private property and the ability to seize it without compensation.
[X] [LOCAL] Cities, communes, and towns should possess limited enumerated rights and responsibilities separate from the power of the national government.
 
Yeah , my fear is using the unilateral power to take property for more then "evil capitalists "
Talking shit on the state ? Well we can't jail you , but your coop factory that employed 50 people is now stated owned , good luck next time

At that point we are just trading capitalist for bureaucrat that will probably stablish monopolies and cartels
 
[X] [BILL] We must retain virtually unlimited political rights in the name of personal liberty.

[X] [ECON] The guarantees in the preamble are sufficient to establish the Republic's interests in the welfare of the citizenry.

[X] [STUFF] We must ensure that any property seizures by the government come with guaranteed and appropriate compensation.

[X] [LOCAL] Cities, communes, and towns should possess limited enumerated rights and responsibilities separate from the power of the national government.
 
[X] [BILL] We must retain virtually unlimited political rights in the name of personal liberty.
[X] [STUFF] We must ensure that any property seizures by the government come with guaranteed and appropriate compensation.
[X] [LOCAL] Cities, communes, and towns should possess limited enumerated rights and responsibilities separate from the power of the national government.
 
[X] [BILL] We must retain virtually unlimited political rights in the name of personal liberty.
[X] [ECON] We must enumerate the Republic's commitment to a cradle-to-grave system of care, to the welfare of its people, and to the establishment and maintenance of economic equality.
[X] [STUFF] We must grant the National Assembly unilateral power over private property and the ability to seize it without compensation.
[X] [LOCAL] Cities, communes, and towns should possess limited enumerated rights and responsibilities separate from the power of the national government.
 
[X] [BILL] We must retain virtually unlimited political rights in the name of personal liberty.
[X] [ECON] The guarantees in the preamble are sufficient to establish the Republic's interests in the welfare of the citizenry.
[X] [STUFF] We must ensure that any property seizures by the government come with guaranteed and appropriate compensation.
[X] [LOCAL] Cities, communes, and towns should possess limited enumerated rights and responsibilities separate from the power of the national government.
 
[X] [BILL] We must retain virtually unlimited political rights in the name of personal liberty.
[X] [ECON] We must enumerate the Republic's commitment to a cradle-to-grave system of care, to the welfare of its people, and to the establishment and maintenance of economic equality.
[X] [STUFF] We must ensure that any property seizures by the government come with guaranteed and appropriate compensation.
[X] [LOCAL] Cities, communes, and towns should possess limited enumerated rights and responsibilities separate from the power of the national government.
 
Ghostdevil said:
Thats purely a function of the OOC nature of players. I was discussing the system as it was, not as it is with player inteference.
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No it's not!?

Our system is a multiparty democracy. That's not something you can brush off as OOC while looking at the other parts of it IC. It's integral to it.

plotvitalnpc said:
My thought on the matter of compensation is that, with capitalists presently such a small player in the national economy compared to cooperatives and the government, it won't take that much to get them out of the economy, especially where they're working in substitutable roles in the supply chain that ultimately have to sell to, or buy from other industries that aren't capitalist-owned, at which point they have no credible way back in to that position and can either piss off to do their shitfuckery in some other country or inevitably piss away that illbegotten fortune with no way to extract further profits. After that point, the only private property that could possibly be expropriated are worker owned cooperatives and things like private homes, owner-operated businesses with no employees, and the like. Things I believe should have a guarantee of compensation.
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They're not small yet? We haven't seized property in territory that wasn't held by the UF yet. We're going to need this law to finish the work of restructuring our gains in the east. It's likely we'll need it again if we gain any new territory too.

If we want compensations for coops & the self employed later we can do that. But I really don't think we can afford to close the door on seizure without compensation for the remaining capitalists.
 
[X] [BILL] We must retain virtually unlimited political rights in the name of personal liberty.
[X] [ECON] We must enumerate the Republic's commitment to a cradle-to-grave system of care, to the welfare of its people, and to the establishment and maintenance of economic equality.
[X] [STUFF] We must ensure that any property seizures by the government come with guaranteed and appropriate compensation.
[X] [LOCAL] Cities, communes, and towns should possess limited enumerated rights and responsibilities separate from the power of the national government.
 
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Nyvis said:
Our system is a multiparty democracy. That's not something you can brush off as OOC while looking at the other parts of it IC. It's integral to it.
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It is by dent of the players, but i was talking without us controlling the voting population OOC,

You have to take in account how exactly the people of this era got information, infinite and instant recall SOUNDS nice, but practically it means the party officials are the ones doing the pulling since the majority of the voters won't know what exactly is going on at any and all points.

There is no actual checks from what i can see on the parties themselves at all and since that is where all the power will concentrate and they will use it to control the one branch all powerful legislature that isn't even bound by any actual laws since they can change it at will, without the OOC control of the players, corruption and the inability of the voters to actually know whats going on nationally that clearly beyond their local area would mean that power would form around at best the parties or maybe even a populist within said party, and since assuming the vote group i exampled earlier wins, the government also would have the ability to just seize any and all territory it wants whenever it wants, so any media would be state or at best party controlled.


TLDR, the people IC would have to actually work with incomplete information, people in the parties with selfish goals and other things that us players don't have to.

Edit2: Spacing
 
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Nyvis said:
They're not small yet? We haven't seized property in territory that wasn't held by the UF yet. We're going to need this law to finish the work of restructuring our gains in the east. It's likely we'll need it again if we gain any new territory too.

If we want compensations for coops & the self employed later we can do that. But I really don't think we can afford to close the door on seizure without compensation for the remaining capitalists.
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Though it's hard to work out exact ratios, the nation level writeup we've got since the end of the war lists our economic ownership breakdown as Cooperatives (High), Government (Medium), Private (Low), which to me implies that capitalist-owned firms can't account for much more than 1/6th of the economy. (If we assume that large equates to 3, medium to 2, and small to 1)

If we could work out a specific protection for coops, the self employed, and properties held with no rentseeking intent (such as a personal home) now I would be inclined to vote for the free expropriation of non-democratic economic capital, though. Perhaps contingent on allowing the workers to decide at the time of expropriation proceedings if the firm is to become state owned or cooperatized, rather than defaulting all currently unseized firms to direct government management.
 
[X] [BILL] We must establish common-sense limits on expression and speech to defend the Republic from those forces seeking its destruction.
[X] [ECON] We must enumerate the Republic's commitment to a cradle-to-grave system of care, to the welfare of its people, and to the establishment and maintenance of economic equality.
[X] [STUFF] We must grant the National Assembly unilateral power over private property and the ability to seize it without compensation.
[X] [LOCAL] All power must flow from the National Assembly and be delegated to localities without constitutional restriction.
 
[X] [BILL] We must retain virtually unlimited political rights in the name of personal liberty.
[X] [LOCAL] Cities, communes, and towns should possess limited enumerated rights and responsibilities separate from the power of the national government.

Abstaining on the economic votes.
 
[X] [BILL] We must establish common-sense limits on expression and speech to defend the Republic from those forces seeking its destruction.
[X] [ECON] We must enumerate the Republic's commitment to a cradle-to-grave system of care, to the welfare of its people, and to the establishment and maintenance of economic equality.
[X] [STUFF] We must ensure that any property seizures by the government come with guaranteed and appropriate compensation.
[X] [LOCAL] Cities, communes, and towns should possess limited enumerated rights and responsibilities separate from the power of the national government.
 
[X] [BILL] We must establish common-sense limits on expression and speech to defend the Republic from those forces seeking its destruction.
[X] [ECON] We must enumerate the Republic's commitment to a cradle-to-grave system of care, to the welfare of its people, and to the establishment and maintenance of economic equality.
[X] [STUFF] We must grant the National Assembly unilateral power over private property and the ability to seize it without compensation.
[X] [LOCAL] Cities, communes, and towns should possess limited enumerated rights and responsibilities separate from the power of the national government.
 
[X] [BILL] We must establish common-sense limits on expression and speech to defend the Republic from those forces seeking its destruction.
[X] [ECON] We must enumerate the Republic's commitment to a cradle-to-grave system of care, to the welfare of its people, and to the establishment and maintenance of economic equality.
[X] [STUFF] We must grant the National Assembly unilateral power over private property and the ability to seize it without compensation.
[X] [LOCAL] Cities, communes, and towns should possess limited enumerated rights and responsibilities separate from the power of the national government.
 
Political Rights
[x] [BILL] We must establish common-sense limits on expression and speech to defend the Republic from those forces seeking its destruction.
[] [BILL] We must retain virtually unlimited political rights in the name of personal liberty.

We must not pretend that the existence of trans people or gay people is something that is up to debate.

Economic Rights
[x] [ECON] We must enumerate the Republic's commitment to a cradle-to-grave system of care, to the welfare of its people, and to the establishment and maintenance of economic equality.
[] [ECON] The guarantees in the preamble are sufficient to establish the Republic's interests in the welfare of the citizenry.

The contstitution is mostly toothless, but I want it in writing.

Property Rights
[x] [STUFF] We must grant the National Assembly unilateral power over private property and the ability to seize it without compensation.
[] [STUFF] We must ensure that any property seizures by the government come with guaranteed and appropriate compensation.

EXPROPRIATE EVERYTHING!

Local Devolution
[x] [LOCAL] Cities, communes, and towns should possess limited enumerated rights and responsibilities separate from the power of the national government.
[] [LOCAL] All power must flow from the National Assembly and be delegated to localities without constitutional restriction.

Power should flow from the bottom to the top.
 
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