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Springtime of Nations: A German Republic Quest

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etranger01 said:
I certainly have no idea how the German Republic devolved into civil strife with so many people voting for an abstentionist revolutionary party. It must be the QM's fault for setting up a Discord server.

Personally, I would much prefer to see robust discussion in-thread, but there was just as much acrimony and bad-faith behavior in this thread as there has been on Discord, so let's not romanticize it. Oldheads from two months ago may recall my multiple warnings about civility and threats to bring down the banhammer.

Also, I made the Discord server because people were starting drama on three different non-dedicated servers and then sniping at each other with screenshots. We've definitely lost the thread discussion and I regret that, but now people mostly vent their spleens in a private, dedicated forum rather than clogging up the thread and other people's servers with bile. It's a trade-off.

Like the private planning channels and the coordination rooms, the secret plan submissions are a direct response to voter requests. Persistent, agitated voter requests. I am doing my best to be responsive to people's concerns. I'm sure it won't please everyone, but that's just how it goes sometimes.
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Well yeah but the difference in thread is that the problem people ended up getting dealt with by way of mods.

I do agree the discord was inevitable and superior to clique discords, by the way. Though I'm not sure the coordination rooms didn't end up having a lot of the same problems.

I also know about the vocal group pushing for the changes. But the result seem to be that there's basically no reason to be invested in this anymore if I'm not willing to wade into the faction room where all the plans are made and submitted secretly. Can't react to them here or try to have a slower discussion with less involved people.

Part of the issue is also that in the party rounds, it was easier to break away or make things evolve so if you didn't really like the way the main group worked, you could always throw in a curveball and see what happens, whether that was a new faction or a shift in your current one. Maybe the equivalent in the civil war rounds would be an ability to get new characters in or out based on player vote? Add some more dynamism to give people a reason to vote beyond the necessary to get current each character's plan going?
 
To be honest. The civil war planning is way worse than the election planning. You spent hour discussing potential plans only to find out your enemies have a perfect counter or that certain things don't work like you though they did. Election plans could be disappointing sure, but there was always a chance to retry the next turn. Even if losing multiple times in a row could get disheartening.

Personally I'm here more out of some sense of obligation than because I'm having fun in this civil war.

Really wish people would have voted to avoid this kerfuffle when they had the chance.
 
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One that point. @etranger01 Are we getting any closer to the point where we can negotiate an end to the conflict? Or is the wild ride going to continue for a long while?
 
Ultimately, I consider the civil war mechanics an interesting experiment with many useful lessons learned, but I have to deem it unsuccessful overall. Them's the breaks.

The civil war is rapidly approaching a decisive phase, I'm pretty sure.
 
Nyvis said:
Part of the issue is also that in the party rounds, it was easier to break away or make things evolve so if you didn't really like the way the main group worked, you could always throw in a curveball and see what happens, whether that was a new faction or a shift in your current one. Maybe the equivalent in the civil war rounds would be an ability to get new characters in or out based on player vote? Add some more dynamism to give people a reason to vote beyond the necessary to get current each character's plan going?
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IMO the reason for the cohesion has been pretty simple. The RA and UF are behind the NC in action economy (20 actions per turn to 24), and thus having a character "go rogue" and do something unplanned for them hamstrings their ability to keep up with the NC; meanwhile, the NC may-or-may-not-be losing the war and has the advantages in traits and action economy to offest that. Breaking away, for any group, could realistically end the war for your "side", and unless you're able to somehow defect, it'll severely hurt your postwar goals. Meanwhile, during the parliametary portion, voting for something different could still lend support to a broadly aligned government, who would in turn be swayed to do things your way if you weren't too dissimilar. The civil war mechanics just aren't set up to encourage splinter-groups within the factions.

Part of the problem with getting new characters in is that either it's only tracking internal popularity and thus somewhat worthless (e.g., a new UF character is just going to be one of the several people along for Voight's wild ride, since she gets so much support), or it gives 2/3 more actions, and immediately everyone is going to try and create as many splinter groups as possible so that you can do more things.

I came right at the end of the parliamentary period and I hope we can get back to it, it was way less stressful.
 
I for one actually enjoy the civil war. Drawing up and considering military plans, and then debating their merits is something I consider fun. Of course I'd rather be doing that for a war to liberate many oppressed people from the Habsburg monarchy, but fighting reactionaries in Germany can do as well.
 
Aedan777 said:
I for one actually enjoy the civil war. Drawing up and considering military plans, and then debating their merits is something I consider fun. Of course I'd rather be doing that for a war to liberate many oppressed people from the Habsburg monarchy, but fighting reactionaries in Germany can do as well.
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You also voted in favor of it while several other parties got dragged along for the ride, despite their best attempts to prevent it.
 
Dutch said:
You also voted in favor of it while several other parties got dragged along for the ride, despite their best attempts to prevent it.
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I didn't vote in favor of the civil war. Up until the final pre-civil war vote I worked to prevent a civil war and tried to assist the effort to hold snap elections rather than the no compromise outcome which resulted in a hung government. Even in the final vote I went for sweeping change rather than direct action, which carried some risk with it yes, but was not a guarantee of civil war.
 
Aedan777 said:
I didn't vote in favor of the civil war. Up until the final pre-civil war vote I worked to prevent a civil war and tried to assist the effort to hold snap elections rather than the no compromise outcome which resulted in a hung government. Even in the final vote I went for sweeping change rather than direct action, which carried some risk with it yes, but was not a guarantee of civil war.
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Apologies then.
 

Scheduled vote count started by etranger01 on Dec 4, 2021 at 10:33 PM, finished with 75 posts and 47 votes.
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C_Z said:
Part of the problem with getting new characters in is that either it's only tracking internal popularity and thus somewhat worthless (e.g., a new UF character is just going to be one of the several people along for Voight's wild ride, since she gets so much support), or it gives 2/3 more actions, and immediately everyone is going to try and create as many splinter groups as possible so that you can do more things.
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I expect the Voight brigade (they were pretty explicit about coming into the quest as a group to make their splinter happen) has stuck together? Trying to contest who's leading a faction is likely to be a hellpit of drama since not being coordinated is bad for your side, so it probably just ends up in the hands of the louder, more coordinated and more persistent discord posters.

I kinda drifted away when the votes didn't really matter and the format lost me (I don't like military planning that much and trying to get people to follow your plan is useless if discord comes up with all the plans and they only need one vote per character). And I just disconnected entirely when everyone was dooming.

And now nothing will happen in the thread at all so there's nothing bringing me back except the updates.

Aedan777 said:
I for one actually enjoy the civil war. Drawing up and considering military plans, and then debating their merits is something I consider fun. Of course I'd rather be doing that for a war to liberate many oppressed people from the Habsburg monarchy, but fighting reactionaries in Germany can do as well.
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Maybe because your faction chat is a lot more chill?
 
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The German Civil War: June-August 1879
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    • The German Civil War: June-August 1879​

    General Overview
    As the mud dries and the land blooms, the armies of Germany remain on the march. With the fall of the Federal capital, the Red Army is poised to continue its advance in the face of determined Coalition resistance, while the Alliance takes a more cautious stance. This summer will prove to be a historic season in the course of the war, and nothing will be the same afterwards.

    Military Maneuvers
    The Red Army opens the year with a two-pronged assault on Fulda and Wurzburg, aiming to hit the ex-Federal forces with a decisive hammer blow. When the Marshal and the Valkyrie General's armies arrive in Thuringia, rather than hitting an anvil, they discover a disjointed, uncoordinated defensive plan, as Coalition forces have seemingly yet to recover from the losses of the spring. Instead, troops have been shuffled about extensively, leaving little time for defensive preparations.

    By order of Chancellor Eisenach, Generals Schurz and Altmaier have divested themselves of their Landwehr forces, with the intention of replacing them with Silesian militia en route from the east. Unfortunately, while the Landwehr have been successfully redeployed, the militia have yet to arrive by the time the Red Army does, and Schurz is left with only his professionals. Though his four corps of Bundeswehr and his Guard corps are a formidable field force, they lack the Landwehr's numbers to fill out their ranks in the face of Schmidt's nearly 3:1 advantage.

    Fortunately for Schurz, General Altmaier rapidly approaches from the south to assist in the defense of Wurzburg, around which rudimentary defenses have been thrown up. This more than evens the odds against Schmidt's Northern Army, and the quality of the Coalition troops is unparalleled save for the fierce-fighting Red Guards. A day of fighting extends into two days, then three.

    The Coalition's luck ends there, however; while the National center is incredibly strong, its flanks are either lightly defended or else entirely undefended. In the north, Chancellor Eisenach's delaying tactics are fatally undermined by an absence of professional troops to stiffen the resolve of his citizen-soldiers and conscripts. When he orders his men to disperse into northern Thuringia and begin partisan warfare against Voight's invading army, he completely loses control of their disposition, as each commander breaks free of supply and communication lines to wage their own little wars.

    In the south, General Liebknecht is confronted with an empty frontier. Against every instinct in his body, he orders the attack on Ansbach; surely an undefended city won't be too much trouble. The resulting offensive, in which the Southern Red Army charges forward on pure élan and entirely undeserved faith in their commander, carries the Front soldiers through Ansbach and then hooks them to the north. Before Liebknecht knows it, he's headed straight for Wurzburg, where the fighting is hottest.

    Able to hold Wurzburg against Schmidt but unable to dislodge him from his forward position, the Coalition armies are unprepared for attacks on both their flanks, as Voight has pushed through the National partisans at heavy cost to her troops, while Liebknecht has arrived almost entirely unmolested. They arrive from the north and south, respectively, and seize the Coalition armies in a vise grip.

    The Battle of Wurzburg is nothing less than a disaster for the Coalition. Despite having been reinforced by five corps of long-overdue militia, they are little more than meat for the grinder in the face of the Red Guards' ruthless onslaught. In the heat of the fighting, General Altmaier is taken captive, while General Schurz manages to extract most of his remaining force from the hopeless battle and make his way southeast. The remnants of Altmaier's army flee east, linking up with Chancellor Eisenach and his bodyguard in the process.

    Schurz attempts to make a stand at Nurnburg, but his army is demoralized and exhausted, while Liebknecht's pursuing forces are still running high on the fumes of their victory. Another battle sees the Army of the Center pushed further back into Bavaria proper, while the Southern Red Army pauses to regroup and rest. Fortunately, the Coalition investment in Munich's war-time industry has paid dividends, and Schurz can at least count on enough supplies to last him for the foreseeable future.

    As the southern front collapses completely, Felix von Salm-Salm finds himself under pressure from the north and from the south. Having only émigré volunteers under his command as a consequence of the recent reorganization, and with no reinforcements forthcoming, he sees little reason to get caught in a vise of his own. After a short delaying action, in which he experiences a shocking number of casualties for such a brief engagement, von Salm-Salm makes good his retreat to the east. His arrival amidst the fleeing remnants of the Army of Franconia manages to rally the men, stopping them short at Weimar.

    One of the few bits of positive news in a disastrous season for the Coalition is the capture of Leipzig, as General von Sparneck's crack Army of the Elbe dislodges Citizen-General Richter from his defense of the city in a single day-long assault. Richter does his best to hold on, but no Alliance reinforcements are forthcoming, as feints from Cottbus and Stargard have kept his allies pinned in their respective positions. This victory does much to restore flagging Coalition morale.

    The other hopeful sign is the arrival in Pomerelia of the Infante Alfonso Carlos, along with the formerly interned soldiers and volunteers from France. Having suffered exile from Spain following the Bourbon loss in the Carlist War, he fully intends to take his revenge on the Red and Jacobin forces who he blames for his family's current reduced state of affairs.

    Internal Affairs
    Following the loss at Wurzburg, Chancellor Eisenach tenders his resignation to the rump Assembly in Breslau. Ernst Delvig, having stepped aside in the name of national unity, now stands up once more to assume command of the largely ex-Imperial forces of the Coalition.

    Chancellor Delvig sacks several underperforming generals from the Combined Staff as his first order of business and demands implementation of new policy to help staunch the bleeding. While the Combined Staff begin implementing preparations for a faster, more responsive Coalition army, he issues an order permitting rapid naturalization of German-speaking volunteers, allowing them to enlist in the Bundeswehr rather than continue as semi-official troops. This does much for volunteer morale, given that many of their parents and grandparents fled Germany ahead of republican confiscations.

    As the factories of the Red West achieve peak productivity under Front guidance, Chairman Kugelmann orders an increased emphasis on basic items for the soldiers, including boots, shovels, and a new model of metal helmet. The helmet is particularly popular, given its ability to deflect shrapnel and even glancing bullets.

    Alongside increased materiel production, the printing presses of the Rhineland begin churning out Walpurga Voight's wartime memoir, Struggle. With the first hundred thousand copies earmarked for the Red Guard, Struggle finds itself widely dispersed throughout the Red Army, and its oddly familiar prose is quite popular among the men and women of the Vanguards, as the Red Guards increasingly call themselves.

    Foreign News
    In the wake of the news from Wurzburg and the Coalition alignment with Britain and France, the Russian and Austrian governments announce that, as part of their "continuing commitment" to the neutrality blockade, they will strengthen their patrols on their respective German borders. This has the function of foreclosing any possibility of movement through Bohemia, though private supporters continue to funnel aid through covert means.
     
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    The German Republic in Fall 1879
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    • The German Republic in Fall 1879

    ​


    United Front
    Choosers of the Slain (Increased recruitment)
    Co-Operative Factories (Increased supplies from domestic industry; this trait also applies to allied factions)
    Coordinated Insurrection (Enemy factions suffer attrition in their own territory)
    Essen Steel (Increased efficacy when on the offensive; this trait also applies to allied factions)
    My Trusty Helmet (Reduced casualties in combat)
    Ninety-Nine Red Balloons (Reduced susceptibility to enemy maneuvers and surprise tactics)
    Red Armbands (Easier unit promotion)
    The Test (Guards are instead more effective Vanguards)

    Louis Kugelmann
    Koblenz
    300,000 Militia

    Viktor Schmidt
    Bayreuth
    58,000 Red Vanguards
    118,000 Regulars
    50,000 Volunteers
    132,000 Landwehr

    Wilhelm Liebknecht
    Nurnburg
    39,000 Red Vanguards
    36,000 Regulars
    34,000 Volunteers
    56,000 Landwehr
    172,000 Militia

    Walpurga Voight
    Coburg
    27,000 Red Vanguards
    63,000 Regulars
    29,000 Volunteers
    102,000 Landwehr
    17,000 Militia

    Peter Kropotkin
    Darmstadt
    450,000 Militia

    Republican Alliance
    Cult of Heroism (A percentage of Landwehr promote instead to Guards)
    Democratic Wehrstaat (Increased promotion of Militia to Landwehr)
    Expert Propagandists (Speedier conversion of lightly held territory to firm control)
    Labor Army (More reliable infrastructure)
    Militarized Agriculture (Increased resistance to firmly-controlled territorial loss)
    Naval Support (Increased efficacy in coastal and river battles)
    Superior Firepower (Increased enemy casualties in battles; this trait also applies to allied factions)
    Yeoman Farmers (Increased supplies from domestic agriculture; this trait also applies to allied factions)

    Claus Dillinger
    Erfurt
    14,000 Republican Guards
    30,000 Regulars
    126,000 Landwehr
    222,000 Militia

    Wilhelm Richter
    Halle
    20,000 Republican Guards
    31,000 Regulars
    22,000 Volunteers
    84,000 Landwehr
    80,000 Militia

    Edward Salomon
    Potsdam
    19,000 Republican Guards
    37,000 Regulars
    73,000 Volunteers
    148,000 Landwehr
    200,000 Militia

    Christoph Mueller
    Stettin
    38,000 Republican Guards
    43,000 Regulars
    7,000 Volunteers
    123,000 Landwehr

    Otto Heubner
    Hanover
    300,000 Militia

    National Coalition
    Combined Staff (Regulars are instead more effective Bundeswehr)
    Engineer Corps (Increased efficacy when on the defensive)
    Foreign Advisors (Increased promotion of Landwehr to Bundeswehr)
    Industrialist Support (Increased supplies from domestic industry)
    National Mobilization (A percentage of recruited Militia are instead Landwehr)
    Naturalization Policy (Freischar now also promote to Bundeswehr and at increased speed)
    Paternalist Infrastructure (Reduced losses from attrition)
    Total Resistance (Reduced penalties from enemy traits)
    Universal Draft (Increased recruitment)
    Vengeful Emigres (Volunteers are instead more effective Freischar)
    War of Maneuver (Increased movement speed)
    Western Blockade (Enemy factions cannot receive foreign supplies)

    Ernst Delvig
    Breslau

    Carl Schurz
    Ingolstadt
    35,000 National Guards
    118,000 Bundeswehr
    86,000 Landwehr
    325,000 Militia

    Peter von Sparneck
    Leipzig
    39,000 National Guards
    87,000 Bundeswehr
    74,000 Landwehr

    Friedrich von Blau
    Cottbus
    13,000 National Guards
    93,000 Bundeswehr
    74,000 Freischar
    189,000 Landwehr
    523,000 Militia

    Eduard von Totleben
    Stargard
    16,000 National Guards
    20,000 Bundeswehr
    101,000 Freischar
    38,000 Landwehr
    120,000 Militia

    Felix von Salm-Salm
    Weimar
    35,000 National Guards
    128,000 Bundeswehr
    94,000 Freischar
    58,000 Militia

    Alfonso Carlos de Borbon
    Kolberg
    15,000 National Guards
    40,000 Bundeswehr
    40,000 Volunteers
     
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  • Informational
    • The German Civil War: Fall 1879 Decision Point
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    • The German Civil War: Fall 1879 Decision Point​

    With the loss of central Germany and the division of Coalition forces into two parts, as well as the prospect of an even harsher winter than last year's, the prospect of a negotiated settlement finally comes into view for the warring factions. Moderate elements on all sides are prepared to end the conflict on the basis of mutual agreement rather than perpetuate the bloodshed any further. However, some argue that the sacrifices already made would be nullified by a weak compromise that leaves many of their faction's goals unrealized.

    Under the proposed framework for peace, Germany would be reorganized as a radical socialist republic, with a new constitution strongly influenced by both the revolutionary communists and the Jacobins. The political settlement would largely favor the United Front, as the ones in control of the capital and much of the nation's most populous regions. However, substantial concessions would need to be made to the Republican Alliance, principally on the issues of political structure, military organization, and foreign policy. Some concessions would also need to be made to the National Coalition, principally on the issues of post-war reprisals, political rights, and constitutional protections.

    The following are the bullet points for the proposed negotiated settlement:

    - Ratification of all war-time expropriations; fair compensation within a reasonable time frame for all previous and future expropriations.
    - A ban on all anti-republican parties and groups, and on advocacy of overthrowing the Republic by force.
    - All high-ranking Coalition officers, officials, administrators, and leaders to enter into exile on pain of execution should they return.
    - All remaining Coalition officers, officials, administrators, and leaders to be banned permanently from public service.
    - Religious institutions to receive no government subsidy, to avoid teaching banned subjects, to avoid political entanglements, and to pay taxes on all properties. In exchange, no government interference with exercise of religion.

    All further issues are likely to be decided during the post-war negotiations; these are merely the pre-conditions for opening discussions.

    What is to be done?

    [] We are prepared to end the conflict as it stands.
    EFFECT: The civil war ends. A constitutional convention begins. Germany changes forever.

    [] We must continue fighting...
    EFFECT: The civil war continues. No negotiated settlement.

    For the United Front and the Republican Alliance:
    [] ... until the Coalition is defeated.
    EFFECT: Commit to a negotiated settlement within the Red-Gold Alliance based on the military situation at the end of the conflict. No change.

    [] ... until we have decided Germany's future.
    EFFECT: Commit to fighting it out with your allied faction once the common foe is defeated. Gain one additional notable figure and one additional order per figure. Gain two additional trait slots and strengthen four extant traits. Suffer a moderate reorganization penalty for the coming turn.

    For the National Coalition:
    [] ... against the Communists.
    EFFECT: Combine Naturalization Policy and Vengeful Emigres into a single trait with the benefits of both. Gain Anti-Communist Fervor, which reads "Greatly increased efficacy against the United Front."

    [] ... against the Jacobins.
    EFFECT: Combine Naturalization Policy and Vengeful Emigres into a single trait with the benefits of both. Gain Anti-Jacobin Fervor, which reads "Greatly increased efficacy against the Republican Alliance."

    ---

    Please vote for both options with your chosen faction at the top and the other choices nested beneath. Failure to do so may result in your vote not being counted.

    An example ballot:

    [] Neutral Exiles
    -[] We must party hard...
    -[] ... in order to have a good time.

    Even if you opt for the negotiated settlement, be sure to register your second vote as well. A majority of each faction's voters must choose the negotiated settlement for it to be ratified. Otherwise, the civil war continues, and the second vote comes into play.

    There will be a 48-hour moratorium on voting followed by a 24-hour voting period.
     
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  • Threadmarks
    • Open to peace if more people want it, will be voting almost certainly for RA-UF merger.
     
    Giving them peace just means they slink off to form bastions of reaction which are propped up by foreign powers as a counterweight and utilize the freedom of religion clause to ward off any laws that might stop them from being crushed into irrelevance. No thank you.
     
    The Reds and the National Government seem to be the main focus, kind of bums me out that the Republican Alliance doesn't seem to be doing much besides holding their gains.
     
    SzechuanSauce said:
    The Reds and the National Government seem to be the main focus, kind of bums me out that the Republican Alliance doesn't seem to be doing much besides holding their gains.
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    I believe at the time of planning we expected a heavy counter attack from the revved up NC. Their numbers can outnumber a front easily.
     
    [] We must continue fighting...
    [] ... until the Coalition is defeated.
    Changed my vote, sad to say. The deal as it stands will prevent the formation of socialism in germany, which cannot be tolerated.
     
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    [] We are prepared to end the conflict as it stands.
    EFFECT: The civil war ends. A constitutional convention begins. Germany changes forever.
     
    I've made my opinion known on Discord earlier and I'll make it known here: we've wasted enough German lives on this jackassery already. I'll put in for peace, although to clarify I speak only for myself and not the RA.
     
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