- Location
- Chelsea Alabama
So is this still going? Because I have my own thoughts on Hana.
Song in the Fog: Da Capo (Ar Tonelico, Metroid AU, Arpeggio of Blue Steel)
- Thread starter Einsig
- Start date
Baughn
Healing-type writer
- Location
- Dublin
Funny you should ask. We got back together to work on chapter 11 just two days ago, and made some decent progress.
It's going, yep. Can't be sure when it'll finish but--
Because Hana's a ship.
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- Location
- Chelsea Alabama
Do you mind if I speak my own thoughts on Hana?Funny you should ask. We got back together to work on chapter 11 just two days ago, and made some decent progress.
It's going, yep. Can't be sure when it'll finish but--
Because Hana's a ship.
Baughn
Healing-type writer
- Location
- Dublin
Discussion feeds the authors.
- Location
- Chelsea Alabama
Thank you. I gathered that Hana is composed of both FOG and Ar Tonelico technology, which makes it a little intriguing as to why she flies so often. Reyvateils don't fly on their own and neither do the fog have any flight capabilities. They are indeed ships that have some sort of dimensional transitioning technology that allows them to show up in any sufficiently large bodies of water, hence the fog when they first showed up. Thus it is possible for them to show up on Ar ciel as they now have an ocean but the reason why eludes me.
As for the fog bits of Hana I can only use the Ars Nova anime as reference, one that I really enjoyed too, and they didn't have a problem slowly creating more nanomaterial to recreate their own ship body if their core managed to survive, though the process takes forever. I am assuming that is one of the broken bits of Hana that is preventing that function. The fog also don't seem to be having any trouble operating in our own physics though how in the world they manage to use weaponry like the supergravity cannons without popping the planet like a pimple is beyond me.
Getting back on track I don't think Hana would be able to utilize song magic because she can't recieve anything from any of the towers, and even if that was somehow possible with her ship self being crossed with a mobile tower in of itself, the difference in physics would not allow any of her songs to work unless she uses some kind of catalyst. Fortunately there are work arounds that don't require standing in the middle of evil phazon. Light being both a particle and a wave makes it a suitable intermediate catalyst as does quantum mechanics to a degree.
There is also the matter of the Chozo and Ar Tonelico. Both's technology are not all just the physical. The Chozo were extremely advanced in both science and spirituality which shows in their technology which fuses the two on a conceptual level and makes their technology incredibly unique. The technology from Ar ciel also deals a lot with the mental and spiritual, even more so than the physical at times. This is another commonality between the two and potential catalyst as well as sonic based technologies in general (frequencies and such).
The fog are the only ones that are completely of the physical, hence why they were freaking out so badly when they started developing free will and humanity due to prolonged interaction with humans, which isn't all that too surprising. Humanity has that effect on others, it is like the gift that keeps on giving. We give to others what were given to us.
The Chozo are incredibly wise and advanced. For their maturity as a species and as a people I would place them as 80 to 90. Incredibly old and wise sages that know that their time is soon, but they are still possible of making mistakes as evident of mother brain, but that was largely due to mother brain herself failing in both actions and choice to be the best she can be, greatly disappointing them and breaking their hearts.
The people of Ar ciel and Ra ciel I would place as adults in maturity, however the humans which includes the federation I would place as teenagers (14, 15, 16), the time when we think we know everything but in truth we know nothing.
When Hana is able to reconstruct her ship body, I can see the Chozo completely upgrading it with their spirituality infused technology, though I suspect that she was going to have more of a bird motif anyway.
So what do you get we you combine a ship (Fog), a tree (a tower), and a bird (Chozo)? A moving forest I say or what will become one. You hear a song within the fog and what you see is a moving forest where wise, ancient birds rest their wings among the branches and new birds are born chirping happily while the ancient birds teach the new birds all the wisdom and knowledge they have, and in term the new birds will grow up, leave the nest, and then come back to do the very same thing, and were children of light can be seen dancing among the trees.
That's what I see and it is beautiful sight. I do worry for Hana's fondness for tragedies. Mir likes them because she sees her life as one, but she is still very much a child and has a long life ahead of her, Hana even more so. Dispite her objections she is still a 10 year old girl. She has much to learn and much to grow. This went on for a while didn't it?
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Itsune
Eldritch horror, Ship's Cat, Emergency Gunner.
- Location
- Somewhere in King County Washington
@Andres Marrero
Line breaks and Formatting please.
As it is it looks like you posed from an Early generation touch screen phone.
Line breaks and Formatting please.
As it is it looks like you posed from an Early generation touch screen phone.
Baughn
Healing-type writer
- Location
- Dublin
Um, er-- Paragraphs? Please?
I wasn't able to read all of that, but at any rate I need to explain that this story isn't fully canon-compliant for any of its canons, except perhaps Ar Tonelico. (It's set post-canon for the AT universe, the 'divergence' starting after one or two years.)
The differences are both minor, and... not-so-minor. Obviously, Arpeggio wasn't originally set on Ar Ciel. The spaceships also aren't cosplaying as WW2 battleships here, which is really where the flying came from -- it's "floating", extended to mid-air via gravity manipulation.
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- Location
- Chelsea Alabama
Oh sorry, I tend to do that when writing out a train of thought, especially when I am doing this from a phone. I hope it wasn't hard to follow or read.
I thought that the fog just showed up on Ar ciel due to them now having oceans as I always assumed that they didn't have flight capabilities but instead used a dimensional transit system that allows them to appear in roughly any ocean.
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Script Mak3r
(Verified Sun God) (Verified Feathers)
- Location
- Hell of Blazing Fires
- Pronouns
- She/Her
One thing to keep in mind is just how fast Fog vessels are. I mean, Iona can manage 80 knots submerged, which is kinda ridiculous when you consider that seawater is about a thousand times more dense than air.
Basically? Even if they still had their canon forms, they could just point their bows upwards and take off like a rocket.
- Location
- Chelsea Alabama
I can't see them doing that. They seem to be built for water not space. I don't think that would work. They could try the death star star trick but why do that when you can just appear in another planet's oceans through some dimensional transit technology.
Well to give my own thoughts on this in hopes this helps you a bit.
So as one of the authors noted, not everything is exactly canon compliant and as @Script Mak3r noted, the power to weight ratio on fog craft is kind of extreme. If one also adds that when they do things like fire super gravity canons and the sea parts, they can actually float. And that the manga has yet more such kind of feats. And one also considers that their propulsion system does not need water at all, being gravitic based. Well it's pretty easy to conclude that you're looking at spacecraft that are just role playing as ships for some strange reason.
One should thus also consider the option they didn't arrive at Ar Ciel as ships on a sea, but perhaps as space craft.
What ever the case exactly may be though, Hana I would say probably floats around like that because she was designed with space craft abilities. The people from Ar Ciel would see no need for her to role play as a ship, what good would that be compared to being able to fly, right? The tech fully allows for space travel, might as well use it to its full potential. And Ar Ciel it self also has some level of hover and space tech as well, so if they could manage to make it fit in a single Reyvateil due to some one else's tech, why wouldn't they?
As for nanomaterial, what would she make it out of? She can't really process the matter that is not of her physics in to her own, so where would she get the raw materials to make more?
And supergravity cannons are incapable of destroying planets. Destroying planets requires absurd levels of power, as in so absurd that absurd falls short as a word to express it. The supergravity cannon as such is simply far to weak to do all that much to a planet, even from just glancing at the effects they have, one would very roughly estimate that it's probably somewhere in the area of a pebble trying destroy a mountain. Obviously not going to happen.
Script Mak3r
(Verified Sun God) (Verified Feathers)
- Location
- Hell of Blazing Fires
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Of course, given how much Fog tech revolves around gravity, they might be able to work together to destroy a planet by doing something similar to Ra Ciel Fusor.
Conceivable if they can form a true black hole I suppose, yeah.
- Location
- Chelsea Alabama
Given how much power is needed to just fire the supergravity cannon, much less to cause the spatial distortion that creates the lasers and traps the enemy in a tractor beam of sorts which also resorts in the ship flying in place as a byproduct, yeah the planet should be going boom, if not by them then either by the supped up version by the death star look a like or by the flagship that can produce enough energy and gravitational forces to warp space and create gaint wormholes which also sucks in enemy fire due to nature wanting to equalize. As for the nanomaterials, from whatever the fog makes them out of. They do clearly function jnder our physics and not Exa_Pico's ,unless that has been changed. I just assumed that the protocols and parts were damaged. The rest actually makes sense. If a ship has gravity manipulation, why not turn it into a space ship?
Oh I edited my original comment so I hope that helps.
Itsune
Eldritch horror, Ship's Cat, Emergency Gunner.
- Location
- Somewhere in King County Washington
Depending on how you look at things, an atmosphere is relatively small/dense Gas pocket in the Massively less dense Oceanic Vacuum that we call space.
--
HHG->G had it right the Average population density of the Universe Approaches as close to zero as mathematicly possible.
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HHG->G had it right the Average population density of the Universe Approaches as close to zero as mathematicly possible.
Trapping a craft in a tractor beam is pretty trivial compared to destroying a planet though. Just like levitating a ship power wise doesn't amount to anything compared to a planet. To give a bit of a sense to that, a Saturn V is several thousands of tons in weight and has enough thrust to lift that up. That its flames do direct damage to a planet equivalent to its weight. In the end all it does is move some dust and rock around, as far as the planet is concerned that much power is beyond insignificant. Sure Ars Nova ships can be ten twenty times as heavy, but that still amounts to nothing effectively.
Same thing for other effects, the power requirement to fire it, insignificant. Water displaced by a super gravity canon, isn't really all that much when compared to a planet. Wormhole? Eh.
In the end its hard to comprehend how much power is really needed to destroy a planet, they shrug off near anything. If you rammed an object the size of a continent in to a planet, it would fail to destroy it. And nothing I know of for A fog ship could be argued to be equal to that.
On nano materials again, if we presume the Fog are physical, then presumably they make it out of matter then? What else would you make it out of that's reasonable after all?
And I would argue the Fleet of Fog isn't working under Earth physics. Else it would seem hard for them to be capable of being at Ar Ciel. How would they survive on that planet if they weren't native or close to native physics?
- Location
- Chelsea Alabama
The amount of energy needed to do all those gravity feats especially considering how spacetime is drastically being warped on a planet's surface. The amount of density needed to do this stuff is like having a few neutron stars on the planet's surface. It doesn't take much in messing with the earth's gravitational field to have everything fall apart, especially if you are using it to cause a spatial distortion to fire a laser. The planet should not be in one peice after those things are fired. There are similarities between Ar ciel physics and our own mainly in light and quantum mechanics where we have cases of things being both a wave and a particle. Given how Fog ships are constructed it wouldn't be impossible for them to reconstruct themselves in a way to where they can exist in Ar ciel, whether or not they would be effective is another matter. All they need is an ocean to show up which Ar ciel now does have. Overall I just thought that the protocols in making nanomaterials is danaged or corrupted, hence preventing her from making more. So if someone actually manages to harm her, she wouldn't be able to heal and I am also somewhat sure that the nanomachines can be worn down by time. So grandpa Chozo wasn't wrong when he assumed that she was degrading because in a sense she is.
Your estimation of what it takes to make such spatial warps assuming they were possible in physics are vastly wrong. Recent work has already managed to find solutions bringing down a Alcubierre (warp) drive to about 700kg negative mass equivalent. And it's not clear if this is a minimum or further drops yet are possible.
As such to cause these effects on Earth while still very costly, are far far short of world destroying. There is little reason to assume the Fog would be inefficient about it after all, just like we would not do tasks in ridiculously inefficient ways. Thus the amount of energy they need and thus logically are using for these actions are inconsequential to what you'd need to destroy the Earth.
This is I'd argue also just as well, because if they really were wielding planet destroying powers, then they would be going about things really ineffectively in their battles against humanity. Their weapons being grossly under powered after all. So fortunately it turns out that this logical inconsistency does not have to be the case.
Also if I recall correctly, Hana's materials that weren't inside her sphere of influence were decaying in exotic radiation. Which I'd typically associate as a sign it's made of non-stable matter for Earth's reality. Thus it's more logical to conclude that Hana herself similarly is made out of such exotic unstable matter but can keep it stable if close enough/connected to her. This also as I noted gives a natural reason why she then can't so easily acquire more nanomaterials, as she's lacking raw materials for it.
I guess other interpretations might be possible though, one can get a bit focused in on one possible solution after all. So if you know how to resolve all these issues in another way, that would certainly be interesting to hear.
Baughn
Healing-type writer
- Location
- Dublin
They follow Ar Cielan physics. This is spelled out explicitly in the story.
I have an explanation for how that can be the case, and still let them end up on Earth the way they did in canon, but obviously they are not in fact ending up on Earth. There was no need for them to go that far.
(Also the Earth of this story is quite a few centuries into the future from our own. There's been traffic between them in Ar Ciel canon as well, but it was quite a while ago.)
- Location
- Chelsea Alabama
Well that certainly explains a few things, so it is due to not having the materials or something similar to that end. Though how is she preventing the nanomaterials that she has from further degrading? If she doesn't find a way to make more than she will burn herself out and be unable to heal. How much time does she have left before reverting back to a core? I also edited my original comment so that it would be easier to read. I hope it helps.
Baughn
Healing-type writer
- Location
- Dublin
Mm. In order:
- Reprocessing the "nanites" as they fail. They're mechanical constructions of nuclear polymers, although Ar Ciel would call some of it 'magic'. Destruction of a nanite doesn't mean it reverts to our kind of matter, just that it ceases to function.
- That's a secret.
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- Location
- Chelsea Alabama
I imagine though, possibly incorrectly, that there is a limit to the reprocessing. Something is going to fail at some point without some outside injection. I wonder what upgrades the wise Chozo are going to do. They fused their technology with spirituality on a conceptual level. The prospect of her ship self or what it would look like would most certainly be interesting to say the least.
- Location
- Pennslyvania
- Pronouns
- She/They
'Reverts'?
That rather implies that it originally WAS our kind of matter. Is this part of your excuse for letting the fog potentially end up on Earth?
Baughn
Healing-type writer
- Location
- Dublin
Eventually. There's no reason to assume that would happen across less time than a couple of decades, if at all for any practical purposes. That's both for narrative purposes -- I'm not about to kill her -- but also because, honestly, unless it literally drops off her it's not going to turn into baryonic matter, and there's no reason she shouldn't be able to reprocess any kind of Ar Cielan matter.
(There are plenty of reasons, once you get into the nitty-gritty. But basically I'm saying she's sturdy.)
Bad word choice on my part. It was never our kind of matter.
I expect @Einsig has his own ideas, but in my mind Hana's ship form looks somewhat like this:
Bearing in mind, she's a light cruiser. They can't normally even form a mental model.
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