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I can't really way in as I've never played any character before, much less both an Adept and a more traditional Magic user.
The current Against argument seems to be more "Makes Adepts into pseudo-mages with little effort," and makes traditional mages more obsolete in that regard because then the Adept can do everything a Mage can as well as what only an Adept can.
Don't know if that's true though.
The current Against argument seems to be more "Makes Adepts into pseudo-mages with little effort," and makes traditional mages more obsolete in that regard because then the Adept can do everything a Mage can as well as what only an Adept can.
Don't know if that's true though.
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I think I am with Serafina on this one so far, I read that specific one and have not gone over Enhancements, Metamagics, or Powers yet but the basics of it seems that it lets them use Arcana instead of Binding. Anyone can summon a free spirit if you can get the resources together for it and adepts still cannot journey in the astral so this is not something that looks too noteworthy to me so far but by batting record is far from 100%.
It's not quite so serious as that, and besides, the game has Mystic Adepts anyway. The problem as I see it is just that:
a) It doesn't make sense (mechanically or thematically) for Physical Adepts to get better at Conjuring Free Spirits or to gain access to Ally Spirits who can sling spells around; it's not what they do and there's another 'class' (for lack of a Shadowrun term) of Magic-User that fits the bill for what Serafina is suggesting (Mystic Adept, which there's nothing stopping you from playing if you want to mess around with Power Points and Conjuring both).
b) It allows a player to swap out an active skill that they likely don't have but would normally need for the task in question (Binding/Banishing) for something that is already important in the Spirit Formula creation (Arcana) in order to cut down on the skill investments they need to make, which could be interpreted as being inappropriate. Binding is the skill you use for Binding; it's right there in the name, allowing you to substitute Arcana for that is like letting you use Armorer for shooting Pistols. It's the kind of thing that doesn't make sense and is only really being proposed to help min-max in a particular situation.
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Is your primary complaint the thematic aspect or the skill use, or are they about even?
Roughly even. On the one hand I cannot understand at all why one wouldn't play a Mystic Adept if they wanted to play an Adept who could do some Conjuring too, and on the other it seems a bit silly to allow someone to skip over investing in a Conjuring skill to help boost their Conjuring (after all, the roll is Binding/Banishing + Willpower, you still get to at least roll your Willpower even if you can't be arsed putting any points in Summoning skills).
Though to be fair, I just want to make it clear that I don't feel very strongly about this. If you want to adopt that particular metamagic option, it doesn't particularly bother me. I just don't like it on principle.
EDIT: Actually just remembered that Binding, as a Magic-attribute skill, couldn't be learned to any degree by a Physical Adept anyway. I'd still be inclined to say that any interested players should just suck it up and try to make it with Willpower + Modifiers alone if they don't have any points in the relevant skill, but I'm a little less opposed to the use of Arcana than I was.
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Alright, I can understand your complaints and they are valid, I am currently leaning towards allowing it since adepts are allowed some rituals and when doing so do use an alternate skill, we could potentially find another one substitute in place of arcana or grant a malus to adepts performing the rituals. It is also not really too much of a boon to adepts as anything they can bring under their control a similarly skill mage can likely banish it with more ease as well as much of the act of actually gaining a spirit ally being focused on roleplaying where spirits are less likely to want to negotiate fairly with an adept.
For the record, I just edited my last post. I forgot that a Physical Adept couldn't put any points in Binding or Banishing to begin with.
FaeGlade Plural
Semper Legens
- Location
- Land of Bureaucracy
- Pronouns
- Plural/They
I personally don't even plan to use Spiritual Way anyway, I plan to use Athletes Way with Xiula.
So anyway, to summarize the houserules that need approval:
- Variouse rules for Drugs.
The first is a penalty for repeated use of the same drug. Currently, there is none, and I felt it was sorely needed - it just doesn't make sense that you can pop Kamikaze like candy for an entire week, and then are no worse off than someone who just took it once.
The second nerfs addiction - specifically, it's now pretty hard to gain the more severe stages of addiction with the milder drugs. I made sure it doesn't affect combat drugs. It's mostly there so that you can actually use the milder drugs recreationally without burning yourself out (especially in combination with the first rule).
The third aids with that - you can now use certain mild drugs (GMs discretion) repeatedly without advancing your addiction faster. This is mostly intended for drugs that are supposed to use that way - think "caffeine", not "crack cocaine".
The fourth clarifies how Drug Interactions and Overdoses work. It removes a bit of fridge logic - currently taking three perfectly safe drugs of any sort together can outright kill you. Now it's only with non-safe drugs. It also slightly reduces the damage spikes you can get from drug interactions and ODing - but doing it like that will still pretty much wreck you.
Those can technically be used separately, but they're more or less intended as one package.
There isn't anything broken in it - the most severe change is that you can now use mild stimulants twice a day or such without risking burnout within three months or so. Seriously, semi-regularly smoking some weed (or drinking soycaf for that matter) will kill you within about three years of doing so with RAW. At any rate, none of the substances that benefit from that buff will actually grant much of a combat bonus (except Cram for some weird reason, it just has that low of a addiction rating, no idea why).
- Turning Ways into a Metamagic.
The big change here is actually how Ways grant additional power points.
Currently, it's "for each two points of magic, select one rank of one power, get a 50% discount on that one rank". So it's either an extra 0.5 PP or 0.25 PP per 2 Magic - but it depends heavily on what powers you select, with no regards to how useful or powerful they are. Basically, it requires min-maxing to be worth it for the power points. Oh, and the designers screwed up because you just can't take some powers with it - even if you could take, say, Light Body, it'd still cost 0.25 PP for that one rank - you'd not gain any discount!
- Specific bonuses granted by the Ways.
That's something separate, because using them as written in the book would work with the metamagic-change.
However, currently the ways seem pretty imbalanced with each other to me.
Some grant something pretty transformative - Artisans and Artists Way change how Adept Centering works, opening up new possibilities. Beasts Way grants an outright skill bonus. Some offer two advantages, others have just one.
Well, I tried to streamline it. Admittedly Spiritual Way is still the odd one out. Everyone now has two advantages.
Artisan is basically the same, except you can now actually be good at driving AND fixing vehicles.
Artists Way is the same, but you now get a slight boost to your Adept Centering because your altered version is more limited than Artisans Way. You can now also learn how to read objects via Psychometry - that strikes me as something an artists could do.
Athletes Way retains it's old boost - but it now also applies to Diving, Free Fall and Running because honestly, those are also athletic! But since that's a purely non-scaling bonus, I added a cost reduction for Foci too.
Beasts Way lost it's skill bonus. You already have an adept power (Animal Empathy) for that. Instead you now gain a cost reduction for what will likely be your main trick - binding and empowering animals.
Invisible Way now gets a bonus that actually makes sense! Seriously, the designers apparently forgot that active foci are big glowing beacons - why would you want more of them if you're trying to be sneaky? Now you can mask yourself better in astral space, and you're good at infiltrating astrally polluted spaces. Oh, and you can learn Sensing because noticing the astral around you without being a glowing beacon there just fit well.
Spiritual Way has already been debated. I didn't like how it was only useful for Mystic Adepts previously.
Speakers Way gains the same as before.
Warriors Way got changed. Binding a Weapon Focus for two less is something you'll only use one time. All the other such bonuses were potentially useful multiple times, indeed you could use it to bind a bunch of cheap foci for free (0.25 PP power, x4=Force 1, Bind Cost: Force x2=2 Karma, reduced by 2=0). Now you get cheaper item atunement and empowering on top of it, which you can actually use repeatedly.
Again, nothing in there should be broken. Admittedly, Ways are on average a bit stronger now, most grant an additional bonus. However, they're no longer a relatively cheap way for a Magic 6 (Mystic) Adept to gain an additional 1.5 PP too.
And if any specifics of the Ways seems imbalanced with each other, it can be fine-tweaked of course. Even Spiritual Way could just be changed back to what it already does, though then it'd still be the odd one out and would be back to only benefiting mystic adepts.
So anyway, to summarize the houserules that need approval:
- Variouse rules for Drugs.
The first is a penalty for repeated use of the same drug. Currently, there is none, and I felt it was sorely needed - it just doesn't make sense that you can pop Kamikaze like candy for an entire week, and then are no worse off than someone who just took it once.
The second nerfs addiction - specifically, it's now pretty hard to gain the more severe stages of addiction with the milder drugs. I made sure it doesn't affect combat drugs. It's mostly there so that you can actually use the milder drugs recreationally without burning yourself out (especially in combination with the first rule).
The third aids with that - you can now use certain mild drugs (GMs discretion) repeatedly without advancing your addiction faster. This is mostly intended for drugs that are supposed to use that way - think "caffeine", not "crack cocaine".
The fourth clarifies how Drug Interactions and Overdoses work. It removes a bit of fridge logic - currently taking three perfectly safe drugs of any sort together can outright kill you. Now it's only with non-safe drugs. It also slightly reduces the damage spikes you can get from drug interactions and ODing - but doing it like that will still pretty much wreck you.
Those can technically be used separately, but they're more or less intended as one package.
There isn't anything broken in it - the most severe change is that you can now use mild stimulants twice a day or such without risking burnout within three months or so. Seriously, semi-regularly smoking some weed (or drinking soycaf for that matter) will kill you within about three years of doing so with RAW. At any rate, none of the substances that benefit from that buff will actually grant much of a combat bonus (except Cram for some weird reason, it just has that low of a addiction rating, no idea why).
- Turning Ways into a Metamagic.
The big change here is actually how Ways grant additional power points.
Currently, it's "for each two points of magic, select one rank of one power, get a 50% discount on that one rank". So it's either an extra 0.5 PP or 0.25 PP per 2 Magic - but it depends heavily on what powers you select, with no regards to how useful or powerful they are. Basically, it requires min-maxing to be worth it for the power points. Oh, and the designers screwed up because you just can't take some powers with it - even if you could take, say, Light Body, it'd still cost 0.25 PP for that one rank - you'd not gain any discount!
- Specific bonuses granted by the Ways.
That's something separate, because using them as written in the book would work with the metamagic-change.
However, currently the ways seem pretty imbalanced with each other to me.
Some grant something pretty transformative - Artisans and Artists Way change how Adept Centering works, opening up new possibilities. Beasts Way grants an outright skill bonus. Some offer two advantages, others have just one.
Well, I tried to streamline it. Admittedly Spiritual Way is still the odd one out. Everyone now has two advantages.
Artisan is basically the same, except you can now actually be good at driving AND fixing vehicles.
Artists Way is the same, but you now get a slight boost to your Adept Centering because your altered version is more limited than Artisans Way. You can now also learn how to read objects via Psychometry - that strikes me as something an artists could do.
Athletes Way retains it's old boost - but it now also applies to Diving, Free Fall and Running because honestly, those are also athletic! But since that's a purely non-scaling bonus, I added a cost reduction for Foci too.
Beasts Way lost it's skill bonus. You already have an adept power (Animal Empathy) for that. Instead you now gain a cost reduction for what will likely be your main trick - binding and empowering animals.
Invisible Way now gets a bonus that actually makes sense! Seriously, the designers apparently forgot that active foci are big glowing beacons - why would you want more of them if you're trying to be sneaky? Now you can mask yourself better in astral space, and you're good at infiltrating astrally polluted spaces. Oh, and you can learn Sensing because noticing the astral around you without being a glowing beacon there just fit well.
Spiritual Way has already been debated. I didn't like how it was only useful for Mystic Adepts previously.
Speakers Way gains the same as before.
Warriors Way got changed. Binding a Weapon Focus for two less is something you'll only use one time. All the other such bonuses were potentially useful multiple times, indeed you could use it to bind a bunch of cheap foci for free (0.25 PP power, x4=Force 1, Bind Cost: Force x2=2 Karma, reduced by 2=0). Now you get cheaper item atunement and empowering on top of it, which you can actually use repeatedly.
Again, nothing in there should be broken. Admittedly, Ways are on average a bit stronger now, most grant an additional bonus. However, they're no longer a relatively cheap way for a Magic 6 (Mystic) Adept to gain an additional 1.5 PP too.
And if any specifics of the Ways seems imbalanced with each other, it can be fine-tweaked of course. Even Spiritual Way could just be changed back to what it already does, though then it'd still be the odd one out and would be back to only benefiting mystic adepts.
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Well on the rule where three perfectly safe drugs taken in concert can kill; I'd keep that one.
Because while the chemicals might be perfectly safe on their own, it would be their interaction that kills you.
For example, mixing caffeine and alcohol. The caffeine is a stimulant, while alcohol is a depressant. Both do effectively the opposite thing to your body, though they are still toxic at high concentrations. And with the mixture, it ends up deadening the natural safety feature each would have that would keep you from passing the threshold.
Alcohol on its own would make you pass out long before you hit liver failure in one sitting (assuming you are not or were not so heavily addicted that you could pop shots like candy).
But the stimulant nature of caffeine keeps you alert for drink after drink after drink. You are still getting drunk, but it's harder to tell. Then you keel over, dead.
And that was with only two minor chemicals, trying to keep track of the interactions between three or more? It's the reason why doctors need to know if you are taking any medications, even over the counter stuff. What they proscribe to you can have an adverse reaction with the chemical, even if it's normally inert.
Because while the chemicals might be perfectly safe on their own, it would be their interaction that kills you.
For example, mixing caffeine and alcohol. The caffeine is a stimulant, while alcohol is a depressant. Both do effectively the opposite thing to your body, though they are still toxic at high concentrations. And with the mixture, it ends up deadening the natural safety feature each would have that would keep you from passing the threshold.
Alcohol on its own would make you pass out long before you hit liver failure in one sitting (assuming you are not or were not so heavily addicted that you could pop shots like candy).
But the stimulant nature of caffeine keeps you alert for drink after drink after drink. You are still getting drunk, but it's harder to tell. Then you keel over, dead.
And that was with only two minor chemicals, trying to keep track of the interactions between three or more? It's the reason why doctors need to know if you are taking any medications, even over the counter stuff. What they proscribe to you can have an adverse reaction with the chemical, even if it's normally inert.
ThatGazzer
Minds Eye Bind
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- PNW
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- They/Them
I have no option on the Adept stuff as I am playing a Razor Girl/Decker.
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- He/Him/His
4th. (Or, if you're super old school, 2nd, but that's pretty unlikely. 2nd Ed has been out of print for years.)
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Soft cover, like a third the length of the 5th Ed book (they had another copy so I could compare in store, used the term decker, deckers were carrying around keyboards and the art style made me think it was printed sometime in the eighties. Book was really worn too, even though I'm sure it hasn't been used.
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- Australia
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- She/Her
Old RPG rulebooks do show up at secondhand bookstores and the like. I have a new looking copy of WHFRP 1st ed that I bought for like five bucks at a second hand bookstore.
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I' trying to figure out which it is.
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Probably 2nd, then, actually. Nice find!
> secretly thinks all SR games should be in gloriously broken 3E
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Went back and got it. Didn't have a price tag. Guy at the counter took one look at it and said, "Five Bucks."
samdamandias
Apprentice Plane Wizard
Second. 4th ed is the one where the line got taken over halfway through by Catylyst, was set in 2072, and Decker referred to a role on the team rather than referring to someone who used a cyberdeck. Of course, Cyberdecks were a thing, but they were small enough that the rules for custom comlinks covered them.
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Buy it, if it is talking pre Big-D even in mediocre condition that is an investment that will pay off and is pretty awesome.
As for the houserules Serafina proposed nobody really seems to have weighed in except LastChronicler on the one, for now I will leave the adept ways open for adepts to go either way since they seems reasonable to me and I have no problem with modified ways or working on homebrew ways.
I am liking the drug rules, I will need to read them again when I am less tired but like them and am thinking of making a houserule as well to add with them for drug 'cocktails' basically mixtures of drugs put together by someone with medical skill so they do not kill you with the option to use an autinjector or normal injector with a smaller dosage of each drug.
If people want to do a run while waiting for me you can though I am about to just start it without people who have finished their backgrounds or get just enough to start. I know I said this was not going to move fast but this is going slower than even I expected, will double check and PM everyone tomorrow hopefully. The very least is I can start writing the opening for people with everything done.
FaeGlade Plural
Semper Legens
- Location
- Land of Bureaucracy
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- Plural/They
Generic writers advice 101:
Sometimes you just have to get it done.
As in, write down all the important points. Stop caring about the best way to put it. If you have to, stop worrying about how the things you want to happen fit together. Just write the points you want down in any way you can, no matter how bad it seems.
Half the time, it won't even be as bad as you think it would be.
The other half, you get someone else to look at it and work it out together
Assuming of course that it's a writing problem, not a "I lack ideas for my backstory" problem.
In which case talking with someone else could also help a lot. Alternatively, if you're really at zero ideas, read something you enjoy and steal from there.