- Location
- Canada
Are there any differences between the two plans besides some agent choices and Aegir buying more ships?
[X] Plan Aegir
[X] Plan Aegir
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Going forward, links to content from Twitter (now X) will no longer be embedded. Pre-existing links should not be affected.
Sartier Quest: A Tale of Song, Gods, and Trouble (CK2-Let's Go Hunt Gods, SV!)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
- Start date
- Original Fantasy
- Location
- Los Angeles, CA
Well, FriedIce has said that he's going to be adding the same ship-buying action when he returns, but we're handling the Vincennes/Dale situation differently. My plan takes the more moderate approach "This Fence Looks Good For Sitting", whereas he is going for the "Make Love Not War" action.
I feel like something that gives us -3 relationship with both belligerents is far too heavy-handed for our first foray into trying to solve the Vincennes/Dale situation, especially while we're still trying to get Sartier back to status quo by evening out relations with Sonissimmo. Honestly, it very much seems like what Sonissimmo themselves attempted and severely angered both Houses to the point where they supported our coup, as per the worldbuilding thread:
While we may be able to throw our weight around, I feel it is unwise to do so without taking a more measured approach at the beginning at the very least. This isn't a situation that we should jump right into while we're still trying to find our feet.
FriedIce
The Authentic Fake
- Location
- Hyperreality
There's only two differences between mine and @Aegir's plan. The first is that I've got Theo Raliegh doing the Noblewoman-Bladesinger exchange in the hope that the fact that he's both a Bladesinger and a member of House Raliegh will make a difference somehow.
The second is that I'm taking a more aggressive attitude to shutting down the Vincennes/Dale conflict. My reasoning for this is simple, this conflict has been explicitly compared to Israel/Palestine. Just sitting down with both sides won't make a difference, we need to take a more active, interventionist attitude to the peacemaking process. Otherwise we won't solve anything.
We're on good terms with Vincennes and we're building their harbour for them, we can afford to take a minor malus to our relationship with them. We, together with Capo who will be working with us on this, absolutely have the authority to make both sides make peace and make it last somewhat. This isn't some distant monarch marching in, this is both houses' direct lieges intervening.
- Location
- Los Angeles, CA
The paranoia in me sees you relying on the Capo here and thinks, "man, Tellar is so nice, handing us a diplomatic incident on a platter, just as long as we don't follow through".
I don't trust the Capo. At all. Until Hamid can tell us what their game is... Anything that relies on them dealing in good faith is suspect to me.
Beyond that, "laying down the law" before we are settled seems like the worst possible thing we could do. You are literally making our first action as the leaders of Sartier to walk in and dictate terms. What kind of message does that send to every other House? Does that seem like a well-considered course of action or a power grab? A House that performed a coup for the benefit of Sartier, or because they wanted more power to bludgeon their opponents out of the way? Trying to go" my way or the highway" within months of taking over authority for an entire country seems like a really bad idea to me. As I quoted above, it sounds far too similar to what Sonissimmo tried to do.
Instead, I want to explore other options, avoid acting rashly on a project that will take years at the least, and solidify our foothold before we start tackling ingrained grudges. We're still dealing with new troubles that our coup has caused, let's not start poking at old wounds just yet.
FriedIce
The Authentic Fake
- Location
- Hyperreality
Capo doesn't want this situation exploding any more than we do. We removed Sonnissmo, with Capo, because Sonnissmo had caused the situation to explode. This is us solving the situation, probably with Capo's help. Caution is good, especially when you're dealing with the intrigue house, but needless paranoia isn't a good thing. Neither of our houses want Dale and Vincennes to drag us into a war with each other, that ends badly for everyone.
As for "my way or the high way" you are, in my opinion, badly mistaking the relationship between vassals and lieges. It is not a relationship of equals, this is us telling our vassal house to get in line and take part in the peace process damnit. They won't like it, they think that House Dale is the provocateur here, but they will fall in line. As for how this will be viewed, it won't be viewed as us performing a power grab, this will be us cleaning up Sonnissmo's mess and forcing our vassals (and House Dale) back into line.
This isn't the modern world and these Houses aren't autonomous nation states. Stop treating them like them. This is explicitly a liege lord telling his vassal to shut up and get with the program, its a bit blunt and heavy handed but we can make it up to them later. What's important now is stopping this war, and I don't think 'This Fence Looks Good For Sitting' will do that.
As for "my way or the high way" you are, in my opinion, badly mistaking the relationship between vassals and lieges. It is not a relationship of equals, this is us telling our vassal house to get in line and take part in the peace process damnit. They won't like it, they think that House Dale is the provocateur here, but they will fall in line. As for how this will be viewed, it won't be viewed as us performing a power grab, this will be us cleaning up Sonnissmo's mess and forcing our vassals (and House Dale) back into line.
This isn't the modern world and these Houses aren't autonomous nation states. Stop treating them like them. This is explicitly a liege lord telling his vassal to shut up and get with the program, its a bit blunt and heavy handed but we can make it up to them later. What's important now is stopping this war, and I don't think 'This Fence Looks Good For Sitting' will do that.
- Location
- Anchorage, Alaska
So was Tellar. We may be the ruling power in the land NOW, but don't take that to mean that you have absolute authority, especially with the shaky ground your on right now.
This war has been compared with the Israel/Palestinian conflict, correct? That means that this conflict has been going on for a long time, possibly fueled by generations of bad blood. When a feud reaches that point, it becomes its own reason to perpetuate itself. Solving it would require at least one opera's worth of storyline and drama to sort out, so unless you luck out with a Romeo & Juliet occurrence, all this will do is get Vincennes to very seriously reconsider their support for your house.
Absolute authority remains absolute, only if everyone else agrees to it. Don't give them a reason to reconsider their stance on this.
Or maybe you should. I have secretly been hoping that Tellar would suffer from its own hubris...
1314
FriedIce
The Authentic Fake
- Location
- Hyperreality
Actually, you know what. @Macchiato. Can you tell us about the Dale/Vincennes feud in some detail, including what set this particular instance of it off, about our relationship with our Vassal Houses, particularly what the power relationship is between us and about House Capo's position on the feud (as far as we know)?
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- Location
- Anchorage, Alaska
You crossed this out, but I'm giving my opinion anyway! First up, a quote ripped from the "A Plague on Both Your Houses" trait, shared by Dale and Vincennes.
Taken literally, this means that this feud could have been going on since before they had writing. More likely, it only means this feud is older than anyone still alive (barring immortals).
Which, as I said before, after a certain point it becomes its own reason, and everything else is just pretext. A misplaced sheep is probably enough to set them off on each other. This is most certainly not something that you can wave your hands at and say "Done!" Hell, apparently in the alter!verse where Sonissimmo remains seated, getting these two to stop fight, for just a little bit, was enough to settle everyone's doubts about their competency. Think about that for a minute.
... Why am I trying to talk you out of this? I want Tellar to suffer via hubris! Go ahead, pull the 'I am your Master!' card. I dare.
1315
FriedIce
The Authentic Fake
- Location
- Hyperreality
Then you should vote Plan FriedIce, instead of Aegir!
I mean since you want Tellar to kick our own teeth in and you seem convinced that 'Make Love Not War' will end badly, shouldn't you vote for the plan that has it in?
- Location
- Canada
With both parties having made their case, I'm going to stick with plan Aegir. The feud isn't going anywhere, and make love not war is going to require us to spend a lot of time, influence and money on this. Taking a more hands off approach to the peace process should keep this under control enough while we get ourselves more established without pissing off our vassals unduly.
FriedIce
The Authentic Fake
- Location
- Hyperreality
I've actually got another argument against 'This Fence Looks Good For Sitting', it represents an abdication of our duties as a liege Lord.
The feudal relationship between Lord and Vassal works two ways. As a Lord, our Vassals are due to give us their obedience and respect, but at the same time we must act in their best interest and protect them from those who may do them harm. Our Vassal has come to us to request us, their liege lord and duly anointed protector, our aid. 'This Fence Looks Good For Sitting' is explicitly us taking no side in the conflict rather than taking an interventionist attitude to peacemaking - this is us saying 'yeah, no thanks, we're a bit preoccupied' after our vassal has come to us for help.
'Make Love Not War' on the other hand isn't a violation of the feudal agreement because we're taking active actions to resolve the conflict and protect our vassal, just not the ones they'd like us to. We're still carrying out our duties as a liege lord.
We're supposed to be the House that takes this feudal chivalry stuff seriously, but 'This Fence Looks Good For Sitting' has us disregarding the central tenant of the feudal relationship just because carrying it out would be a bit difficult. Is this really the tone we want to set for the rest of our reign? That we don't take our responsibilities as a liege seriously?
The feudal relationship between Lord and Vassal works two ways. As a Lord, our Vassals are due to give us their obedience and respect, but at the same time we must act in their best interest and protect them from those who may do them harm. Our Vassal has come to us to request us, their liege lord and duly anointed protector, our aid. 'This Fence Looks Good For Sitting' is explicitly us taking no side in the conflict rather than taking an interventionist attitude to peacemaking - this is us saying 'yeah, no thanks, we're a bit preoccupied' after our vassal has come to us for help.
'Make Love Not War' on the other hand isn't a violation of the feudal agreement because we're taking active actions to resolve the conflict and protect our vassal, just not the ones they'd like us to. We're still carrying out our duties as a liege lord.
We're supposed to be the House that takes this feudal chivalry stuff seriously, but 'This Fence Looks Good For Sitting' has us disregarding the central tenant of the feudal relationship just because carrying it out would be a bit difficult. Is this really the tone we want to set for the rest of our reign? That we don't take our responsibilities as a liege seriously?
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- Location
- Anchorage, Alaska
While true, I'm an annoyingly good person at heart, and cannot bring myself to try and actively harm Tellar's cause. I will, however let them bring this down upon themselves.Then you should vote Plan FriedIce, instead of Aegir!
I mean since you want Tellar to kick our own teeth in and you seem convinced that 'Make Love Not War' will end badly, shouldn't you vote for the plan that has it in?
[X] None
There. I didn't really read the full vote's anyway, so it was an uninformed vote. Good luck with not turning your own people against you!
1316
- Location
- Australia
Well, that was the annual figure and the game operates in half-year turns, so it is half that. Also, the cost includes that of the Arsenal and the Balan and Valeigh Cloisters.Wait a second... let me do the math.. 50 k upkeep mentioned here... On 30 ships... What the hell do they use to maintain those damn ships, solid gold mops? FFS... That's almost 1700 g per ship, per turn. Whereas we maintain 4 House Triremes for 1000 g... so 250 g a piece. Please say that they're inflating those costs, because that's just ridiculous. Even if half that budget is in administration and such, that's still insane.
Unless those ships can fly and shoot lightning on demand, we are so not investing in them. We'll get enough House Triremes to line them up bow to stern and walk all the way to Khironex first.
And hey, if we can do both ship-building actions at the same time, I'm all for it. What's a budget for if not to spend?
Although, we probably should figure out exactly how much we actually make a turn...
Oh, and OneirosTheWriter, I assume the Vincennes shipbuilding action nets us another 4 Triremes, correct? Carlisle has a total, but Vincennes does not.
Edit: One final note, the two plans are tied at the moment.
The cost of a Royal Navy Trireme is 2,000g per with 500g upkeep.
The cost of a Major House Trireme is 1,000g per with 250g upkeep
The cost of a Minor House's Trireme is 500g per with 125g upkeep
- Location
- Australia
Ehh, you really shouldn't be so down on the Tellar. They definitely had their reasons, and reasons to trust the Capo. These are things that will come out.
Also, you're going to find out what happens when some young Marshal in Sonissimmo decides to burn down the main docks of Tranquility but are let down by some of their commanders, when you happen to live in the closest, most available point of retribution for the Pirates.
Thing is, Hana and Avery are good leaders (all the Great House leaders have good stats) but they were very new to their position and they got unlucky on their first couple of turns, because they tried to immediately right all the wrongs they felt their parents hadn't been dealing with. After all, every set of rulers develops a "too hard" basket of issues that their kids get frustrated over. Unfortunately, the net effects of going straight out to fix the world were ... Yeah, not so good.
You'll get the less well known parts of the story with the first part of the results. (PS, take note of the chargen descriptions of the Capo concessions for a hint as to part of the reason).
- Location
- Los Angeles, CA
Oh boy. Step out for a few hours and look what I come back to.
Unless Capo knew that they couldn't make a serious run for the Symphony position while Tellar did, but if they let Tellar take over and royal screw things up, well then, that's different, isn't it? At that point, its obvious that Tellar is as unsuited as Sonissimmo, and that Capo should take over.
Worst case for them in that scenario is that Tellar manages to succeed, and they have the ruling House indebted to them; best case, they get a shot at the ruling Symphony that they wouldn't have otherwise. It's not that far-fetched as far as I'm concerned.
And you're underestimating that these are people with their own ambitions and populace. Being heavy-handed and declaring your will to be so is a great way to be passively sabotaged. Get ready for the Vincennes to start "accidentally" misplacing forces when we call for them, for the ships we ordered to experience "unexpected delays". Seriously, these are vassals, not automatons that fall into place when you will it. They may bend the knee in public, but they can do a lot of damage in other ways.
Why, actually, yes. I'm saying that we shouldn't give undue attention and favor to Vincennes because we are now responsible for ALL of Sartier, not just our Vassal Houses. So yes, let's not throw our whole-hearted support behind our side of the conflict. Obviously, we should favor them, but we have to look at the bigger picture now, and bumbling into the middle of the situation and berating both sides isn't how you do that.
Besides, if you thought that was an actual valid reason, why aren't you choosing "We've Got Your Back"? That's how we'd fulfill our "feudal responsibility", rather than kicking them both around with "Make Love Not War". You have failed to point out how that's different from what the Sonissimmo tried.
Oh, okay, that's much more reasonable. I can live with that. What is the performance difference between the Trireme levels?
Edit:
Goddammit Hana...
Unless Capo knew that they couldn't make a serious run for the Symphony position while Tellar did, but if they let Tellar take over and royal screw things up, well then, that's different, isn't it? At that point, its obvious that Tellar is as unsuited as Sonissimmo, and that Capo should take over.
Worst case for them in that scenario is that Tellar manages to succeed, and they have the ruling House indebted to them; best case, they get a shot at the ruling Symphony that they wouldn't have otherwise. It's not that far-fetched as far as I'm concerned.
And you're underestimating that these are people with their own ambitions and populace. Being heavy-handed and declaring your will to be so is a great way to be passively sabotaged. Get ready for the Vincennes to start "accidentally" misplacing forces when we call for them, for the ships we ordered to experience "unexpected delays". Seriously, these are vassals, not automatons that fall into place when you will it. They may bend the knee in public, but they can do a lot of damage in other ways.
Why, actually, yes. I'm saying that we shouldn't give undue attention and favor to Vincennes because we are now responsible for ALL of Sartier, not just our Vassal Houses. So yes, let's not throw our whole-hearted support behind our side of the conflict. Obviously, we should favor them, but we have to look at the bigger picture now, and bumbling into the middle of the situation and berating both sides isn't how you do that.
Besides, if you thought that was an actual valid reason, why aren't you choosing "We've Got Your Back"? That's how we'd fulfill our "feudal responsibility", rather than kicking them both around with "Make Love Not War". You have failed to point out how that's different from what the Sonissimmo tried.
Oh, okay, that's much more reasonable. I can live with that. What is the performance difference between the Trireme levels?
Edit:
Goddammit Hana...
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- Location
- USA
[X] Plan FriedIce
Rather tale a more active role in resolving the two houses dispute. Also we need to start looking at getting some of the infrastructure options started as they all take several turns.
Rather tale a more active role in resolving the two houses dispute. Also we need to start looking at getting some of the infrastructure options started as they all take several turns.
Macchiato
Grumpy Rabbit
- Location
- Girt by sea
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I may just point out here that the reaction post suffers pretty heavily from unreliable narrators. So... just because Allison Vincennes thinks it's Dale's fault and Sonissimmo were being assholes... doesn't actually mean Sonissimmo was being unreasonable. It just illustrates the embedded mindset when it comes to those two houses and their feud.
Which segues nicely into...
It may be worthwhile to remember that while Vincennes is a vassal and they have to listen, there's much to be said about token acknowledgement and turning around and going "I do what I want". Low Crown authority's sort of a thing, so Aegir's read is probably closer to accurate there. House Capo's inclined to back their own Vassal House, as any Great House would, and is much more likely to believe Dale's version of events. That said, House Capo's pretty cunning and they do have some ties to House Tellar and vice versa so they could probably be... persuaded to deal with Dale if needs must in this respect.
The feud's been going on for centuries, possibly before Teuv's gods even came into existence (read: centuries) and definitely before the whole Teuv conquest thing. @Sightsear is essentially correct in his read of the situation in that this has gone on so long that no one remembers the original reason they started to begin with. Hatfield-McCoy, Montague-Capulet, and so on. They don't like each other and even they don't remember the original reasons why. Not that it bothers them much, they're perfectly happy to invent their own new reasons.
The Battle of Southmarch Vale was an incursion on Vincennes' part into Dale lands and was the specific incident that Avery Sonissimmo had been attempting to address. Southmarch is a castle district of Dale and is the home of Minor House Mei. Its proximity to the current border of Dale and Vincennes means it's often the site of skirmishes. It's also not that far away from Arbalen proper. Vincennes troops didn't discriminate between civilian and engaged, in this particular instance, due to their interpretation of behaviour in a previous incident where Dale had been the provocateur (or maybe this was in response to that, depends on who you talk to). Only Vincennes knows why it did what it did, but they would certainly insist that it was necessary, just as Dale would insist that it was completely unjustified. In the grand scheme of their dispute, however, it's just a very small drop in a very big bucket.
- Location
- Los Angeles, CA
Sure, that makes sense. But it's their reaction that we need to worry about, not whether it's a logical opinion. Logic and politics went their separate ways long, long before we got here.
"Why are we fighting them, again?"
"I dunno. Didn't one of them talk to your daughter once?"
"That's it! Those bastards!"
FriedIce
The Authentic Fake
- Location
- Hyperreality
Jesus Christ. How have they managed to have a feud going for actual centuries without killing each other off? Like, wow.
I rather assumed that whilst the Royal Crown Authority might have been low, our personal Major House Authorities would be higher for dealing with our direct vassals. They are a fair bit smaller than us, after all.
Hmm, reading these and I'm tempted to change the Chiming Forest Magic Action to the Capo Mists, joint with Capo, on the off chance that that's what they're so worried about. Thoughts?
I don't doubt that Vincennes is going to be incredibly pissed at us for a while for our actions here, we'll just have to make it up to them over time, like by building them a new harbour.
I rather assumed that whilst the Royal Crown Authority might have been low, our personal Major House Authorities would be higher for dealing with our direct vassals. They are a fair bit smaller than us, after all.
Reading the options for what Capo wants and they're either preparing for an internal war, or they're really fucking worried about something. Incredibly so.
This one appears to support your position, but I'm not certain. It could just be that Capo didn't want us getting involved and escalating the conflict, whilst they're focussed on other stuff.
Obvious reasons are obvious. Magic is kindof our thing and it improves their capability with the same.
The important things here aren't the income costs to us, but rather the fact that it gives the Capo units the Many Ways to Skin and Surfeit of Iron special rules.
Obvious reasons are obvious.
The royal army is historically very well known for its independence and not being swayed either way to one house or another. So why would Capo want to host the Royal Army in their territory...
Obvious reasons are obvious.
Hmm, reading these and I'm tempted to change the Chiming Forest Magic Action to the Capo Mists, joint with Capo, on the off chance that that's what they're so worried about. Thoughts?
I'm not sure it is meaningfully different. But as you said, we're responsible for the entire realm and its our duty to safeguard all of our vassals, especially the ones who explicitly come to us for protection. We can best achieve this not by standing by and doing nothing as this conflict erupts but instead by intervening and trying to force a Pax. Backing one or the other would be in breach of our responsibilities to whichever vassal we didn't back, so instead we need to negotiate a peace in order to be a good lord. Sonissimmo didn't have the wrong idea, they just went about it in an ass backwards way and had to deal with their screwup with the pirates dragging their name down. Also, we objected and stopped the situation from being resolved, which as far as the Vincennes/Dale Conflict goes was probably a bad idea.
I don't doubt that Vincennes is going to be incredibly pissed at us for a while for our actions here, we'll just have to make it up to them over time, like by building them a new harbour.
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- Location
- Los Angeles, CA
It's a feud, not a war. Think the Cold War; occasional poking and/or proxy actions versus constant direct conflict.
Hmm... I'd see that as a possibility. They'd definitely want Tellar support if they wanted to deal with that. But on the other hand, we shouldn't give it to them freely. If we're going to do that, then we should wait until Capo approaches us about it. Don't go into it as equals, but make sure that it's a favor to them. Something we can use to even the scales and/or put them in our debt instead.
In short, I don't think we should jump at it just yet.
Right. So I'd do so by bringing them to the table instead of wading into the thick of it. We have a difference of opinion on which approach is better. I'm aiming for the iron fist inside the velvet glove. Start nice, but remain firm with both sides. Even if peace talks won't solve anything directly, they'll give us time to suss out other ideas and find better levers for later, versus throwing our weight around.
To be fair, we didn't think it would work. Trying to do the same thing without Avery's explicitly good diplomatic chops doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
The harbour will help, but it won't offset the bad juju from the direct option, and I don't think it's worth aggravating the situation before we're ready to really focus down on it. Unless of course they're about to launch a full scale war against each other. I don't think the situation is that dire, although @Macchiato can correct me on that if I'm off in my assessment.
Basically, I think this little feud has crept back into the cold territory and they're trying to drum up support to start pushing with their newly powerful liege lord. If we don't jump in, then it won't escalate at the moment, but if we jump on this opportunity to try and deride the both of them, I believe it will cause more issues in the long term.
FriedIce
The Authentic Fake
- Location
- Hyperreality
My interpretation of the conflict is that its currently if not hot, then at least lukewarm. Its the main reason I'm being so pushy about Make Love Not War, honestly.
Also, damn you Oeineros and Macchiato. I'm blaming you for the fact that its 4am and I can't sleep because I'm thinking about this quest.
Ohh, btw Aegir, would you mind swapping the Lumen on the hostage swap option with Theo Raleigh? I'm not sure it'll have any impact but the fact that Raleigh is both a member of House Raleigh, and a Bladesinger might make the action go better (even though its an autosuccess).
Also, damn you Oeineros and Macchiato. I'm blaming you for the fact that its 4am and I can't sleep because I'm thinking about this quest.
Ohh, btw Aegir, would you mind swapping the Lumen on the hostage swap option with Theo Raleigh? I'm not sure it'll have any impact but the fact that Raleigh is both a member of House Raleigh, and a Bladesinger might make the action go better (even though its an autosuccess).
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- Location
- Los Angeles, CA
Well, looking at the option text, emphasis mine:
It doesn't sound hot to me, more like they want it to go hot, with the newfound support of their stronger liege House. They aren't currently in an offensive position, but they are looking for an advantage to shift to one.
Join the club... First draft of my plan started at 6 am...
The things we do for the things we love.
Fair point. I don't see that as a problem. Off to the editing tab!
Macchiato
Grumpy Rabbit
- Location
- Girt by sea
- Pronouns
- She/Her
They just had a bit of a battle a few months ago where there were casualties and bad behaviour. I'm say lukewarm's probably a fairer assessment.
I'd say I'm sorry FriedIce, but I wouldn't mean it :3