Revan Quest (Star Wars)

And if Revan is championing a "fuck both sides, they're stupid" view or "people make their own choices" view, she might agree with him.

And honestly, given how history in star wars goes, is Kreia's theory really all that far off base?
As far as I'm concerned the theory is a perfectly valid one. It's just her 'solution' to it that's the issue. I might recognize that gravity is at fault for pretty much every plane accident ever, but I don't decide building a device to permanently turn it off throughout the galaxy is the only way to deal with it.
 
A geographical region of France roughly corresponding to the former Duchy of Normandy, which lasted from its formation in 996 to 1789, though it changed hands several times within the English and later the French who controlled it, and which is split into two administrative regions. But that's not important right now.
sounds like something that wont exist for a long long time, in a galaxy far far away.
Mass Effect reference, but I am perfectly okay with Darth Malak is a Meatbag.

Revan gives no fucks.
I'd prefer we have either a ship name that is meaningful to Revan.
 
Uh, she despises the force and is actively striving to see it removed from the universe. She's trying to remove a fundamental aspect of the universe. Like time, or gravity, or the strong/weak nuclear forces. She doesn't care how many people get hurt or if there's anything left, she just want's to 'free' the universe from the 'tyranny' the force entails. That's all kinds of insane to me.

Not really. When you consider just how much damage force users have done, how pivotal they've been to some of the most overturning moments in history, wanting to remove their influence is in no way 'insane'. She has logical reasons behind it, and the Force isn't in any way necessary for people to live. Unlike gravity - hint, hint.

If you're considering that as insane, then you've cheapened the meaning of the word immensely. You might as well call those who first wished to overthrow the feudal system as insane IRL.
 
Not really. When you consider just how much damage force users have done, how pivotal they've been to some of the most overturning moments in history, wanting to remove their influence is in no way 'insane'. She has logical reasons behind it, and the Force isn't in any way necessary for people to live. Unlike gravity - hint, hint.
True.

Unfortunately... it probably would barely change anything - lack of space wizard powers rarely precludes someone from being a conquering asshole, after all.
 
Wasn't it proven that the vong did in fact have a connection to the force even if it wasn't obvious? And heck even droids have a connection to the force. It may not be one they can use but it's still there.
 
Not really. When you consider just how much damage force users have done, how pivotal they've been to some of the most overturning moments in history, wanting to remove their influence is in no way 'insane'. She has logical reasons behind it, and the Force isn't in any way necessary for people to live. Unlike gravity - hint, hint.

If you're considering that as insane, then you've cheapened the meaning of the word immensely. You might as well call those who first wished to overthrow the feudal system as insane IRL.
Except Force is a fundamental part of life, everything that lives, or has ever lived is connected to the force. We've seen what happens when things are forcibly stripped from the force*, and it's pretty horrible. The force isn't just space magic available exclusively to Force Users, it's a fundamental facet of nature that ties all life together. One could argue, that in SW, the force defines what isn't and what is alive. Even if you could cut off the galaxy from the force, we really don't know what the consequences of such an act are. I highly doubt it's just "Oh! No more Space Wizards I guess."

*The Starforge as Malek used it, Darth Nihilus, The Exile being so broken by her trauma through the bonds she became a void in it.
 
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True.

Unfortunately... it probably would barely change anything - lack of space wizard powers rarely precludes someone from being a conquering asshole, after all.

Yep. But hopefully she can at least reduce the scale and the One Great Man tragedy characterized by the Force. A defining feature of real life is how one person cannot personally do that much damage. On a very fundamental level, people are peers of each other - sure, someone else would have more knowledge, more physical ability, etc. but it only goes so far. With the Force, that flies out the window, particularly when you include the EU. A single man's will, with the Force backing him, can change things a LOT more than that of a run-of-the-mill human.

Wasn't it proven that the vong did in fact have a connection to the force even if it wasn't obvious? And heck even droids have a connection to the force. It may not be one they can use but it's still there.

Dunno about that - the only thing I read about droids having a connection to the force is in another Revan quest thread, and aren't the Vong anti-force, if anything?

That said, we know what doesn't happen when someone is completely cut off from the force. They don't die. Which is really all the justification Kreia needs.

Except Force is a fundamental part of life, everything that lives, or has ever lived is connected to the force. We've seen what happens when things are forcibly stripped from the force*, and it's pretty horrible. The force isn't just space magic available exclusively to Force Users, it's a fundamental facet of nature that ties all life together. One could argue, that in SW, the force defines what isn't and what is alive.

The Starforge as Malek used it, Darth Nihilus, The Exile being so broken by her trauma through the bonds she became a void in it.

Yes, we've seen what happens when someone is cut off from the force. They live. And the trauma is rather explicitly being cut off from the Force for a force user, who perceive the world differently due to the Force.

Quite frankly, the Force is clearly not at all required for someone to live, and live a good life at that. The negative effects of its removal appear to be limited to trauma for someone used to it who was cut off from it due to the deadened sensations and abilities/extensions. Kreia might be a dick for doing that to all the force users in the galaxy, yes - but she's not insane for attempting to do so. She has justification, and the Force is not necessary for living. Her logic's also internally consistent.
 
Quite frankly, the Force is clearly not at all required for someone to live, and live a good life at that. The negative effects of its removal appear to be limited to trauma for someone used to it who was cut off from it due to the deadened sensations and abilities/extensions. Kreia might be a dick for doing that to all the force users in the galaxy, yes - but she's not insane for attempting to do so. She has justification, and the Force is not necessary for living. Her logic's also internally consistent.
The Force is way more than just something that can be excised from a few sensitives and be called a day. The Force that Kreia's railing against is more along the lines of fate, of clear delineated moralities opposing each other in constant and pointless cycles. Kreai is opposing the very notion of Fate, and the idea of destiny, of predetermination, that goes far beyond disliking people who use the force. The Force is something that effects and supposedly guides every living thing and supposedly has a sentience of its own. Just killing/cutting off all force users is not going to work, and if she's that delusional to think it will, than she very much is insane.
 
The Force is way more than just something that can be excised from a few sensitives and be called a day. The Force that Kreia's railing against is more along the lines of fate, of clear delineated moralities opposing each other in constant and pointless cycles. Kreai is opposing the very notion of Fate, and the idea of destiny, of predetermination, that goes far beyond disliking people who use the force. The Force is something that effects and supposedly guides every living thing and supposedly has a sentience of its own. Just killing/cutting off all force users is not going to work, and if she's that delusional to think it will, than she very much is insane.

See, all you're saying is just making me think Kreia had a point.

Also, no one ever said anything about just excising the Force from a few sensitives. In fact, if you'd read my post more clearly, you'll note that I'm talking about the sensitives being the most affected by what happens, not the only ones the Force is removed from. And even that is merely to talk about the example we had. Heck, you seem conflicted on what Kreia wants to do - in the first part of your post, you're saying that Kreia wants to comprehensively eliminate the Force. The last part of your sentence calls her insane for only doing so with Force sensitives. Which do you actually think she's doing???

And according to you, the Force is apparently a sapient entity that is manipulating every single being in the galaxy into a specific path, makes morality black and white ... and it's a bad thing to remove it? Why exactly is predetermination something to fight for? What is so grand about having a destiny forced on people, on having people with supernatural powers push their will onto others?

If anything, that just makes me want to vote for Revan supporting Kreia.

Also, if you're going to tell me that opposing the notion of Fate and the idea of destiny/predetermination is insanity, I will slap you. Through the internet. Because you'd deserve it for saying something that stupid.:mad::p
 
See, all you're saying is just making me think Kreia had a point.

Also, no one ever said anything about just excising the Force from a few sensitives. In fact, if you'd read my post more clearly, you'll note that I'm talking about the sensitives being the most affected by what happens, not the only ones the Force is removed from. And even that is merely to talk about the example we had. Heck, you seem conflicted on what Kreia wants to do - in the first part of your post, you're saying that Kreia wants to comprehensively eliminate the Force. The last part of your sentence calls her insane for only doing so with Force sensitives. Which do you actually think she's doing???

And according to you, the Force is apparently a sapient entity that is manipulating every single being in the galaxy into a specific path, makes morality black and white ... and it's a bad thing to remove it? Why exactly is predetermination something to fight for? What is so grand about having a destiny forced on people, on having people with supernatural powers push their will onto others?

If anything, that just makes me want to vote for Revan supporting Kreia.

Also, if you're going to tell me that opposing the notion of Fate and the idea of destiny/predetermination is insanity, I will slap you. Through the internet. Because you'd deserve it for saying something that stupid.:mad::p
More that if she's trying to go after sensitives exclusively to remove the Force's influence is crazy. And its less that I support predetermination, Destiny, or Fate (I despise the notion of fate/predestination and all that jazz). And more taking it into your own hands to actively remove Fate from the equation regardless of what other people want/uncaring of the consequences that I think makes it crazy. It's less that I think it's not a noble ideal, but more not giving a shit about the consequences of achieving the goal is the issue here. I know as much as I dislike Fate, I dislike someone unilaterally turning it off without asking permission much more.
 
More that if she's trying to go after sensitives exclusively to remove the Force's influence is crazy.

She's not doing that, though.

Note that it wouldn't be crazy even then, depending on what her goals are - if she doesn't care about the Fate aspect of it and is really just against Force users mucking things up for everyone else, then removing the Force from them would be a perfectly valid thing to do.

And its less that I support predetermination, Destiny, or Fate (I despise the notion of fate/predestination and all that jazz). And more taking it into your own hands to actively remove Fate from the equation regardless of what other people want/uncaring of the consequences that I think makes it crazy.

No, it just makes you a dick. A well meaning dick even, maybe.

Seriously, you seem to be confusing 'insanity' with 'dickishness'. There's nothing insane about wanting to do away with something you despise.

It's less that I think it's not a noble ideal, but more not giving a shit about the consequences of achieving the goal is the issue here. I know as much as I dislike Fate, I dislike someone unilaterally turning it off without asking permission much more.

As I noted, the Force is not necessary for people to live. It also does not directly affect the minds/feelings/whatever of non-sensitives. For people like that, the Force may as well not be there, it merely works around them, not with them.

And once again, being a dick does not mean that you're insane. For an action to be insane requires logical contradictions, far-reaching baseless assumptions, a breakdown of rational thought.

Not caring about the feelings of other people when you do something that affects them doesn't make you insane, it just makes you an asshole.
 
As I noted, the Force is not necessary for people to live. It also does not directly affect the minds/feelings/whatever of non-sensitives. For people like that, the Force may as well not be there, it merely works around them, not with them.
It actually is. One simply needs to look at the results of wounds in the force and thought bombs to see that. Keira's end goal was to feed the entire force to a wound in the force. That would have killed everything in the galaxy but droids.
 
She's not doing that, though.

Note that it wouldn't be crazy even then, depending on what her goals are - if she doesn't care about the Fate aspect of it and is really just against Force users mucking things up for everyone else, then removing the Force from them would be a perfectly valid thing to do.



No, it just makes you a dick. A well meaning dick even, maybe.

Seriously, you seem to be confusing 'insanity' with 'dickishness'. There's nothing insane about wanting to do away with something you despise.



As I noted, the Force is not necessary for people to live. It also does not directly affect the minds/feelings/whatever of non-sensitives. For people like that, the Force may as well not be there, it merely works around them, not with them.

And once again, being a dick does not mean that you're insane. For an action to be insane requires logical contradictions, far-reaching baseless assumptions, a breakdown of rational thought.

Not caring about the feelings of other people when you do something that affects them doesn't make you insane, it just makes you an asshole.

Actually the Force does directly affect minds and feeling, it just does it subtly to it's own ends.
The Force, if it truly is sentient, is the epitome of meddling.
It does small things and big things. Is responsible for you finding your car keys or walking down a specific alleyway after the theater with your son Bruce or having a certain Adolph's application to Art School rejected.
And it seems to do so, for the sole purpose of setting up Jedi/Sith fights and Great Man-style history
The Force is the in-universe explanation for why the Sith keep popping up and why the Jedi are never fully defeated.

In a reasonable non-Fate universe, both religious factions would have not only been destroyed but forgotten and their 10* descendant organizations would look nothing like one another.
How old is the name Jedi? It's been around longer than the name it was originally (the Jee'Dai) and been corrupted into.
Thousands of years after KoToR2 wiped out the Jedi Order down to 3 people, the Jedi are back the same as ever.
Literally the only change made since the Sith branched off the Jedi is the Rule of 2.

That implies some form of guidance from above.
 
Hell the emperor in SWTOR pulled of something similar to what Nihlis did and the force of a planet and all the people on it. That planet was still dead when revan found and when the exile found it.
 
Actually the Force does directly affect minds and feeling, it just does it subtly to it's own ends.
The Force, if it truly is sentient, is the epitome of meddling.
It does small things and big things. Is responsible for you finding your car keys or walking down a specific alleyway after the theater with your son Bruce or having a certain Adolph's application to Art School rejected.
And it seems to do so, for the sole purpose of setting up Jedi/Sith fights and Great Man-style history
The Force is the in-universe explanation for why the Sith keep popping up and why the Jedi are never fully defeated.

In a reasonable non-Fate universe, both religious factions would have not only been destroyed but forgotten and their 10* descendant organizations would look nothing like one another.
How old is the name Jedi? It's been around longer than the name it was originally (the Jee'Dai) and been corrupted into.
Thousands of years after KoToR2 wiped out the Jedi Order down to 3 people, the Jedi are back the same as ever.
Literally the only change made since the Sith branched off the Jedi is the Rule of 2.

That implies some form of guidance from above.

I noted that before, if you'd read my posts. Heck, it was part of my point noting that what Kreia's doing doesn't sound so bad, considering it all.

It actually is. One simply needs to look at the results of wounds in the force and thought bombs to see that. Keira's end goal was to feed the entire force to a wound in the force. That would have killed everything in the galaxy but droids.
Hell the emperor in SWTOR pulled of something similar to what Nihlis did and the force of a planet and all the people on it. That planet was still dead when revan found and when the exile found it.

*shrug* If removing the Force would actually kill everyone, then yeah, she's insane.

But considering the Exile, it seems unlikely. Seems more like you can use the Force to kill tons of people, but that's not a natural side-effect of people being severed from the Force.
 
But considering the Exile, it seems unlikely. Seems more like you can use the Force to kill tons of people, but that's not a natural side-effect of people being severed from the Force.
Her goal wasn't to sever people from the force but to feed all of it to an wound in the force, IE someone like the Exile. Who wasn't actually severed from the force as far as I know. She deafened her self to the force after feeling the deaths of everyone she had a bond with at that one planet.

Basically Keira's end goal was to kill the force it's self.

Edit: Wait never mind she was severed from the force. However that still doesn't change tha Keira's goal was to pretty much kill the force via feeding it to a wound in the force. Which would have killed every living thing in the galaxy.
 
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[X]Single Lightsaber
[X]Taris. The Blockade is not yet fully in effect, and you can likely land unopposed in the confusion. Taking off later may be more difficult, however.
 
[X]Single Lightsaber
[x]Taris. The Blockade is not yet fully in effect, and you can likely land unopposed in the confusion. Taking off later may be more difficult, however.


I don't think having multiple lightsabers really makes a better duelist so having the opinion of using something else with the off hand would be good. Also it is kind of implied that while a person can affect things simple with their mind the movement of the hand has some effect on their focus or no Force-sensitive would use it.

Taris had some allies and resources. It would be cool to try grabbing allies other than the ones in the game though its been so long I don't remember anyone really interesting that could be trusted but I am sure there is. Robbing the gangs would be useful as well.
 
And according to you, the Force is apparently a sapient entity that is manipulating every single being in the galaxy into a specific path, makes morality black and white ... and it's a bad thing to remove it? Why exactly is predetermination something to fight for? What is so grand about having a destiny forced on people, on having people with supernatural powers push their will onto others?

If anything, that just makes me want to vote for Revan supporting Kreia.

Also, if you're going to tell me that opposing the notion of Fate and the idea of destiny/predetermination is insanity, I will slap you. Through the internet. Because you'd deserve it for saying something that stupid.:mad::p
The notion of fate may not be insane, but it cannot be rationally believed. Suppose that I were a stubborn idiot who believes square circles can exist. Eventually you grow tired of my nonsense and brainwash me into believing that a square circle cannot exist.

Would I be rational for believing the truth if I am brainwashed to believe it? Of course not. Rationality is about willingly using reason to weigh the evidence and come to a conclusion. If you are forced to believe something by an outside entity, you are not rational in believing it.

If the Force is determining all our actions, we cannot rationally believe that is the case. Instead, we should believe that we have free will and can exercise it in spite of the Force.
 
This is sort of my point @Dimensionist; there's at least room to suspect that turning off someone's connection to the force, let alone feeding them to a wound in the force is lethal more often than not and horribly scarring for the most part. So long as there's a degree of reasonable doubt on whether or not flipping the switch will end life as we know it and you still want to flip it; then I'm gonna call you pretty crazy*. And kreia's logic isn't really consistent; she despises the whole Great Man history, yet idolizes Revan (about as Great as you can get outside of the Skywalkers) and her plan is entirely dependent on relying on The Exile to devour all the force in the Galaxy. If that's not Great Man defining history than nothing is. She's just as chained to the cycle as everyone else yet prefers to think of herself as some visionary who's breaking said cycle.

*Pyschopath is probably a better term than insane, but even then I thinks it's arguable she's pretty insane.

We should probably either agree to disagree here or take this to PMs. I think we might be getting a little too off topic here.
 
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[x]Single Lightsaber
[x]The Leviathan. Assaulting Malak directly would likely be considered suicide if you were anyone else; as you're you, it's merely extremely difficult.

Why isn't there more support for the Leviathan option? Revan can take Malak, and then we'll have control over the sith empire again. Plus, Taris won't be bombed, so that's + a few billion people.
 
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[X]Single Lightsaber
[X]Taris. The Blockade is not yet fully in effect, and you can likely land unopposed in the confusion. Taking off later may be more difficult, however.


Extremely difficult doesn't mean we'll succeed. Extremely difficult means that the odds of failure are above-average to high. I'd rather go grab allies and gear, then take them down before they can destroy Taris. Knock the odds down to doable-difficult.
 
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