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Res Publica: A Quest of Ancient Rome

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Meep said:
Choosing to not join Sertorius doesn't mean we're staying in Rome, I don't think?
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Obviously not. Our tribunate isn't over and therefore we aren't actually allowed to be in the city once the festivities are over.
Meep said:
The VI Legion could be sent pretty much anywhere after this, so this isn't really a Sertorius vs Rome decision, as we have no reason to think we're staying in Rome as opposed to going anywhere else. That's my understanding anyway.
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This is a decision about having a clear military campaign, but forever burning our connections with the optimates, or a less certain future, but having all options available.
 
Going to spain is the safest option i think unless our commander falls too badly to the loosing side.

Wouldnt hate staying with the legion and going to roman gaul maybe instead not thrilled with staying in rome during the purges.
 
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Thyreus said:
Personally I think people are a bit overselling the danger we would be in if Sulla won. I'm honestly more worried about Marius first winning and then dying, making room for those bloodhounds Cinna and Marius the Lesser.
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It may be my ignorance of Roman history talking, but I don't think Cinna and Marius the Younger are actually bloodthirsty. The problem is that they simply do not have Marius the Elder's towering prestige, and are trying to maintain control of Rome in the face of very real threats- most conspicuously Sulla, but also shit like Pompey's conspiracy.

When it looked like Marius was on his deathbed, his son and Cinna freaked out and allowed Marius' troops to start purging enemies of the populares because without a massive purge, they had no hope of uniting Rome under their control in time to save them from Sulla.

With Sulla out of the picture, there are no major military threats to populares rule in Rome except perhaps for Pompey. Pompey may let ambition override his optimates leaning or he can plausibly be crushed by the sheer weight of legions available to the populares at that time. Either way, he's a manageable problem.

In general, any oligarchs or autocrats will become much more violent when they are in sincere fear for their continued hold on power, and by extension their lives.This is why, for instance, an actually paranoid ruler like Stalin is so deadly; he's always convinced that he's in danger of losing his power and life.

It's entirely possible that Marius the Younger and Cinna would rule Rome in a sort-of-okay fashion if only Marius could win the civil war for them before dying of old age.

Nurgle said:
I firmly believe we should get married to a wife that is amazing at intrigue. We need to cover the deficit the character has.
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Being married to a wife who's good at Intrigue and on your side is a great thing for an ambitious nobleman.

The problem, then, is ensuring she's on your side and not on anyone else's!

Thyreus said:
Obviously not. Our tribunate isn't over and therefore we aren't actually allowed to be in the city once the festivities are over.

This is a decision about having a clear military campaign, but forever burning our connections with the optimates, or a less certain future, but having all options available.
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I'm actually a bit confused about how this works. What if the legion we're attached to is disbanded? Are we allowed in the city then?

Notcreative said:
If pomepy plays kingmaker we're as good as dead seeing as we already made a enemy of him
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Yeah, that's definitely true.

If Sulla somehow handily defeats Marius (or Marius has a heart attack and dies and his legions fall apart while over in Asia), and comes back and re-enacts the historical sequence of events... we are screwed. Because if Pompey says to Sulla "and as the price of joining my legions to yours, I want Atellus' head on a plate," our head will be on a plate faster than you can say "dance of the seven veils." Scaevola isn't going to be able to convince Sulla to stop.
 
Simon_Jester said:
Because if Pompey says to Sulla "and as the price of joining my legions to yours, I want Atellus' head on a plate," our head will be on a plate faster than you can say "dance of the seven veils." Scaevola isn't going to be able to convince Sulla to stop.
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That's unless Pompey bankrupts himself keeping three legions under arms before the civil war is over in the east.
 
IC: I feel Atellus wouldn't want to abandon his family in Rome which will surely see further struggles between the factions. Especially, since following Sertorius could potentially endanger them even more. By going to Hispania we would go against our past choice to study under Scaevola. We would de facto abandon the Optimates and throw in our lot with the Populares. Sertorius and by extension we are not gonna have a good time, if Sulla wins the civil war.

OOC: In my opinion Atellus' time to shine hasn't come yet. We still need to grow in a multitude of areas and should rather focus on staying alive until the civil war blows over. Making a name for ourselves in this conflict ala Pompey is an attractive goal. However, I personally would count managing to get through this period without getting proscribed or exiled as a win.
 
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Simon_Jester said:
It may be my ignorance of Roman history talking, but I don't think Cinna and Marius the Younger are actually bloodthirsty. The problem is that they simply do not have Marius the Elder's towering prestige, and are trying to maintain control of Rome in the face of very real threats- most conspicuously Sulla, but also shit like Pompey's conspiracy.

When it looked like Marius was on his deathbed, his son and Cinna freaked out and allowed Marius' troops to start purging enemies of the populares because without a massive purge, they had no hope of uniting Rome under their control in time to save them from Sulla.

With Sulla out of the picture, there are no major military threats to populares rule in Rome except perhaps for Pompey. Pompey may let ambition override his optimates leaning or he can plausibly be crushed by the sheer weight of legions available to the populares at that time. Either way, he's a manageable problem.

In general, any oligarchs or autocrats will become much more violent when they are in sincere fear for their continued hold on power, and by extension their lives.This is why, for instance, an actually paranoid ruler like Stalin is so deadly; he's always convinced that he's in danger of losing his power and life.

It's entirely possible that Marius the Younger and Cinna would rule Rome in a sort-of-okay fashion if only Marius could win the civil war for them before dying of old age.

Being married to a wife who's good at Intrigue and on your side is a great thing for an ambitious nobleman.

The problem, then, is ensuring she's on your side and not on anyone else's!

I'm actually a bit confused about how this works. What if the legion we're attached to is disbanded? Are we allowed in the city then?

Yeah, that's definitely true.

If Sulla somehow handily defeats Marius (or Marius has a heart attack and dies and his legions fall apart while over in Asia), and comes back and re-enacts the historical sequence of events... we are screwed. Because if Pompey says to Sulla "and as the price of joining my legions to yours, I want Atellus' head on a plate," our head will be on a plate faster than you can say "dance of the seven veils." Scaevola isn't going to be able to convince Sulla to stop.
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Roman soldiers are not allowed within the city limits of Rome in non-triumphal circumstances. If you enter Rome, you are no longer a soldier, period, and no longer have to follow anyone's commands, legally. This is meant to keep generals from marching their armies on Rome, and it worked precisely until armies became more loyal to their generals than Rome.

Regardless, soldiers and those serving in a military capacity are not allowed within the limits of Rome. If your legion is disbanded, you no longer have anything to be a tribune to. If your tribunate is not up, you may be reassigned to a province or another legion, or, more likely, your tribunate is just over early.
 
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Publicola said:
...This sounds like Telamon is directly telling us that, giving the chaos of Rome, it would be safer for us to go with Sertorius to Spain to wait out the results of the war between Marius and Sulla. That the 'clash of ideologies' is in fact a life-and-death struggle, and that going to Spain would allow us to rest on the sidelines while the real throw-down was going on.

He does have a point: our 'intrigue' and 'subterfuge' scores are lousy.
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So you are saying that while populares and optimates battle in the streets, the Legions in Spain, with us at their head, should come in and impose our order and rationality into the upper class of Rome? that since our subterfuje is so crap, instead of trying to backstab our enemies we should just stab them in the face?
 
Thyreus said:
Obviously not. Our tribunate isn't over and therefore we aren't actually allowed to be in the city once the festivities are over.

This is a decision about having a clear military campaign, but forever burning our connections with the optimates, or a less certain future, but having all options available.
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My post was in response to multiple people who were implying they thought we were staying in Rome if we decided to turn down Sertorius. I was attempting to politely clear up a misconception.

And I don't think that's fair summary. The benefits of going with Sertorius to Hispania isn't that we know where we're being stationed, with the negative being that half of Rome suddenly hates our guts. The benefits are that we're avoiding the civil war, gaining tutelage under a very skilled individual, getting the chance to make a name for ourselves by taking land for Rome, and going to a part of the world where our family name actually has influence. The downsides are that we align ourselves with Sertorius, and by extension the populares. Which could be extremely bad if Sulla wins, but Atellus already aligns ideologically with the populares, so we're not safe if Sulla wins regardless, as it's already been pointed out that Scaevola can't protect us if someone really wants us dead. There's also no guarantee that Sertorius won't be targeted if the populares win anyway, as he's still a threat to whoever is in charge.

Likewise, not joining Sertorius isn't as simple as not knowing where we'll get stationed, but also being able to do whatever we want. The upsides of not joining Sertorius is that we can continue continue straddling the fence, giving us a good chance at survival regardless of the outcome of the war, not that we have 'all options available'. We very explicitly don't get options if we turn down Sertorius, as we have no idea what happens next, with no way to influence what happens next. We could just as easily end up in Africa as Rome. Which means we can't get training from from Scaevola. We can't influence things to stop the Sertorian Wars from happening. We can't decide to be on the front lines of the war when Sulla returns, or have nearly no interaction with it at all. If the next person to take Sertorius' place over the VI is popular with the troops, we might not even get to decide who the legion supports. We might have no influence on how things proceed, stationed in the middle of nowhere, or be the first forced into picking a side when Sulla returns. The point is that we don't get to choose, the choice is made for us, which could be very good or very bad.

Historically, Sulla returned to Rome in 83, which is two years from now, I believe. That is both a lot of time and not a lot of time to prepare, regardless of our decision.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by Erumpet on Jul 18, 2019 at 7:38 PM, finished with 106 posts and 1 votes.
  • [X] Plan Optimat Politics​
    -[X] Write-In: Discipline. It is said soldiers ignored Sertorius and his officers' commands to cease during the sack. There must be a punishment for such insubordination. You have the pay of all men who ignored orders heavily docked. Gold speaks louder than blood.​
    -[X] Write-In: Memorial. Have a stone monument erected outside the ruins of Nola, with an inscription in large letters, high enough off the ground that a man cannot easily reach it. "Here stood the city of Nola, spurning the outstretched hand of Rome. Here came the sword of Rome, in the year of Flaccus and Marius. Here fell the city of Nola."​
    -[X] The Cult of Mars: You attempt to solidify your small cult, turning it into an organization which may survive the transition from military life to civilian. Having brothers bound by bonds deeper than blood in the killing fields of the Senate may prove useful.​
    -[X] Expand Journal: You begin expanding your journal to include more than strictly military matters, such as political happenings or philosophical musings.​
    -[X] Make Connections: Ever aloof and arrogant, the aristocrats of the equtii, the knights of Rome, have come to respect you as a leader to look up to over the course of this campaign. You could try to make some deeper connections that might serve you well in the city.​
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Thyreus said:
This is a decision about having a clear military campaign, but forever burning our connections with the optimates, or a less certain future, but having all options available.
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Honestly, at a certain point we're going to have drop this fence sitting and favor one side or the other.

If Sulla wins (or if Marius has a stroke or something, which I am betting can happen any day now) and comes west to retake Rome, I'm of the opinion that we're fucked because we've made an enemy of Pompey. Even if we try to switch sides and help Sulla, we are a nobody who can offer him little. Even adding our relationship with Scaevola, Pompey has way more to offer to Sulla than we do. And once the proscriptions start, our name is going to show up on a list one day.

And trying to fight Sulla in Italy is not going to turn out well. Besides Marius, Sertorius is the only populare general alive capable of besting him (or Pompey for that matter) at this point. Going with Sertorius not only gets us away from this mess, but allows us to gain wealth, clients, military and administrative experience. We can grow stronger away from the front lines.

And lets not rely too much on historical hindsight in evaluating Sertorius' fate, and ours, if we choose to go with him. It was an incompetent, overly ambitious underling who betrayed him. Guess who's going to be there to stop any such thing from happening if we do end up at war with whatever figure controls Rome?

I say go with Sertorious. Besides, since we are going to have to pick a side eventually the populares are a far more sympathetic choice to me than the optimates.
 
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Bullmoose said:
Honestly, at a certain point we're going to have drop this fence sitting and favor one side or the other.

If Sulla wins (or if Marius has a stroke or something, which I am betting can happen any day now)...
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The flip side of this is that Marius went east specifically to fight Sulla. I'm honestly surprised that there hasn't been any further news on the conflict between them for several updates, given that literally months have passed. Maybe that's because both armies retired to winter quarters, but I'm kind of surprised even so- Marius has to feel the clock ticking.
 
People are overestimating the amount of influence Pompey will have with a victorious Sulla, I think. Were things as OTL, then yes, Pompey would be of considerable value to Sulla, but the situation is very different in one very important aspect — the bulk of the Marian strength and Marius himself are also in the east. Therefore, in any plausible scenario where Sulla returns to Rome a free man, he has already all but broken his enemies and has much less need of the Picentine upstart.

Honestly, the calculus changes enough with a Sullan triumph that we could easily see Cinna welcoming Pompey into the fold rather than scorning him as he did OTL.
 
Caesar said:
People are overestimating the amount of influence Pompey will have with a victorious Sulla, I think. Were things as OTL, then yes, Pompey would be of considerable value to Sulla, but the situation is very different in one very important aspect — the bulk of the Marian strength and Marius himself are also in the east. Therefore, in any plausible scenario where Sulla returns to Rome a free man, he has already all but broken his enemies and has much less need of the Picentine upstart.

Honestly, the calculus changes enough with a Sullan triumph that we could easily see Cinna welcoming Pompey into the fold rather than scorning him as he did OTL.
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And what would Pompey want to do with us if he did decide to join Cinna? While we are in a legion under Cinna's authority?

Edit: As far as I see it, not going with Sertorius basically involves us trying to keep our head down and survive the bloody struggles between warlords for the foreseeable future. We could avoid all that trouble by going with Sertorius, and actually exploit a very good opportunity to grow our character.
 
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Caesar said:
People are overestimating the amount of influence Pompey will have with a victorious Sulla, I think. Were things as OTL, then yes, Pompey would be of considerable value to Sulla, but the situation is very different in one very important aspect — the bulk of the Marian strength and Marius himself are also in the east. Therefore, in any plausible scenario where Sulla returns to Rome a free man, he has already all but broken his enemies and has much less need of the Picentine upstart.

Honestly, the calculus changes enough with a Sullan triumph that we could easily see Cinna welcoming Pompey into the fold rather than scorning him as he did OTL.
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Of course, then it's Cinna to whom Pompey says "the price of my support includes Quintus Atellus' head on a plate," instead of Sulla. :(

Bullmoose said:
Edit: As far as I see it, not going with Sertorius basically involves us trying to keep our head down and survive the bloody struggles between warlords for the foreseeable future. We could avoid all that trouble by going with Sertorius, and actually exploit a very good opportunity to grow our character.
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It's a tradeoff.

On the one hand, we're less vulnerable to the capital-T Troubles taking place in Rome. Keeping our head down, as it were.

On the other hand, we're less able to position ourselves to face whatever is coming from the aftermath of this round of civil war. We're safer right now, but it becomes a total crapshoot whether we're safer in the long run.
 
Simon_Jester said:
Of course, then it's Cinna to whom Pompey says "the price of my support includes Quintus Atellus' head on a plate," instead of Sulla. :(

It's a tradeoff.

On the one hand, we're less vulnerable to the capital-T Troubles taking place in Rome. Keeping our head down, as it were.

On the other hand, we're less able to position ourselves to face whatever is coming from the aftermath of this round of civil war. We're safer right now, but it becomes a total crapshoot whether we're safer in the long run.
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This is a fair point. However, we've made an enemy of a man who could easily play the role of kingmaker to whichever side he stands to benefit the most. Unless we just want to bet everything on Marius wining out east (because that is really the only scenario where Pompey couldn't play kingmaker), then we need to get out of here before things come to a head.
 
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[X] Accept Sertorius' offer. Scaevola will doubtless be angered by your implicit rejection of his patronage, but you will gain as a mentor a man who learned at the feet of Marius himself. You will fight in the dusky fields of Spain where your father earned his glory and his name, and learn of war at the feet of a master. Hannibal, Scipio, Sertorius -- some of Rome's most beloved and hated names have arisen in Spain. Might you follow in their footsteps?

[X] The Feast of Mars: The soldiers of Rome celebrate a triumph in their own special way. Restricted for so long from excess and more extravagant pleasures, they release their desires in Subura, one of the seedier districts of Rome. Here, they employ women of the night, have mighty parties, and drink themselves stupid -- in the name of Mars, of course.
[X] The Bacchanals: Rome's youngest and wealthiest throw their own extravagant private parties atop the Palatine Hill, great affairs of drinking, licentiousness, and all those vices which Romans have so long claimed to despise. Perhaps the eminent party of these Triumphal celebrations is that thrown by the eminent statesman Quintus Lutiatus Catulus, a renowned optimate, and his friend, Marius' nephew-in-law, Lucius Sergius Catalina. You have been personally invited to one of these celebrations by the latt

[X] A Soldier's Welcome: You pay a visit to your sisters at the apartment Proserpina has rented for your family in Rome. Your old servants will be there as well.
[X] The Pen Is Mightier: You spend some time with your friends, the lawyers Rufus, Atticus, and Cicero.
 
Guess I'll put this up.

[X] The Quixotic Quest
-[] Accept Sertorius' offer. Scaevola will doubtless be angered by your implicit rejection of his patronage, but you will gain as a mentor a man who learned at the feet of Marius himself. You will fight in the dusky fields of Spain where your father earned his glory and his name, and learn of war at the feet of a master. Hannibal, Scipio, Sertorius -- some of Rome's most beloved and hated names have arisen in Spain. Might you follow in their footsteps?
-[] A Soldier's Welcome: You pay a visit to your sisters at the apartment Proserpina has rented for your family in Rome. Your old servants will be there as well.
-[] Mentor: You pay a visit to the Pontifex Maximus, your mentor, the old jurist Scaevola.
-[] Blood and Sand: The teeming hordes of Rome gather in the amphitheaters of the city to watch men fight and die and scrabble in the dirt for the glory and the name of Rome. Many of the city's more bloodthirsty elite take a special delight in these festivities, and several influential Senate members often watch.
-[] The Bacchanals: Rome's youngest and wealthiest throw their own extravagant private parties atop the Palatine Hill, great affairs of drinking, licentiousness, and all those vices which Romans have so long claimed to despise. Perhaps the eminent party of these Triumphal celebrations is that thrown by the eminent statesman Quintus Lutiatus Catulus, a renowned optimate, and his friend, Marius' nephew-in-law, Lucius Sergius Catalina. You have been personally invited to one of these celebrations by the latter.
 
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Bullmoose said:
And what would Pompey want to do with us if he did decide to join Cinna? While we are in a legion under Cinna's authority?

Edit: As far as I see it, not going with Sertorius basically involves us trying to keep our head down and survive the bloody struggles between warlords for the foreseeable future. We could avoid all that trouble by going with Sertorius, and actually exploit a very good opportunity to grow our character.
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In that scenario we defect, ideally with the VI legion, as quite a few notable Romans did over the course of the Civil Wars. I certainly have no intention of fighting to the death for men like Cinna and Marius.

And going to Spain has one glaring issue. Spain is not enough of a powerbase to fight the rest of the Republic, and, given the characters of everyone involved, there are very few futures that do not involve Sertorius fighting the eventual victor of the Marius/Sulla deathmatch. It's a lingering death, with very little we can do to influence our fate. Personally, I prefer the gamble (and I acknowledge that it is a gamble) of staying with the legion.

Pompey is going to be a problem in any scenario. (A complete Marian victory delays matters somewhat, but that is not a stable coalition. Cinna and Marius only need each other while Sulla lives, and Marius, at least, will not tolerate an equal he does not need.) But the best way I see to mitigate him that doesn't leave us to rot in the hinterlands of the Republic is winning the loyalty of a legion of our own.

Fake Edit: And voting is open so...

[X] Plan Stay the Course

-[] Refuse Sertorius' offer. You cannot leave Rome, and you cannot abandon the ties you have already made here to follow Sertorius on some quixotic quest to Spain. There is glory enough to be gained in Rome, if you know where to look.

-[] The Bacchanals: Rome's youngest and wealthiest throw their own extravagant private parties atop the Palatine Hill, great affairs of drinking, licentiousness, and all those vices which Romans have so long claimed to despise. Perhaps the eminent party of these Triumphal celebrations is that thrown by the eminent statesman Quintus Lutiatus Catulus, a renowned optimate, and his friend, Marius' nephew-in-law, Lucius Sergius Catalina. You have been personally invited to one of these celebrations by the latter.
-[] Blood and Sand: The teeming hordes of Rome gather in the amphitheaters of the city to watch men fight and die and scrabble in the dirt for the glory and the name of Rome. Many of the city's more bloodthirsty elite take a special delight in these festivities, and several influential Senate members often watch.

-[] A Soldier's Welcome: You pay a visit to your sisters at the apartment Proserpina has rented for your family in Rome. Your old servants will be there as well.
-[] Mentor: You pay a visit to the Pontifex Maximus, your mentor, the old jurist Scaevola.

Make some connections among our peers, learn something about the wider situation (elections should be coming up soon, if nothing else, and I'd like to see who's running for what) and check in with the family.
 
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