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Res Publica: A Quest of Ancient Rome

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Telamon said:
The legions Pompey now leads loved his father, Pompeius Strabo. Augustus won the love of the armies because of his father Caesar. The descendants of Scipio Africanus are still loved by the legions.

The love of the legions is for generations, not just for a lifetime. Old Tercerus fought at your father's side in the Unconquerable Tenth. There are many like him (and their sons) scattered throughout northern Spain. They may well answer the call of a second Atellus.
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It bears noting that they would probably also answer Sertorius's call...
 
Thyreus said:
Yeah, so he will spend the strength we could use in decades down the line on his vain attempt to carve his own kingdom out of the empire.
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It is worth noting that what Sertorius does in Spain, at least initially, is nothing exactly out of the way for a Roman governor. He wars with the African raiders, kicks the Celtiberians in the teeth, and sets about Romanizing Hispania. He only begins to act as an independent ruler once Sulla wins and declares him proscribed, ordering him to return to Rome to, at the very best, be exiled. It is precisely this fate that he had hoped to avoid by having a power base in Spain — and one he did avoid for a long time thanks to that power base.

This is rather less Caesar in Gaul and more realpolitik — the best place in the world to be Sertorius at the moment is Spain. Establishing a kingdom or a Sertorian Republic is perhaps the furthest thing from his mind. Even during his civil war, history is still conflicted on if he saw himself as establishing a new independent state under his direct rule or as the head of a Marian rump state in Spain. Certainly, many prominent populares took the latter view, and fled Rome for Spain when Sulla returned. And indeed, if Sertorius had triumphed over Pompey in Spain, his ultimate goal was in all likelihood a march on Rome, and a third stage of the civil wars, not some sort of independence in the west.

The First Civil War might have been centered around great men, but unlike the later wars of the Triumvirs, it was not merely a pissing match over which strongman got to be the king of Rome in all but name (though that was a practical result). Rather, it was a clash of ideas and ideaologies, the populares and the optimates locked in life-or-death struggle for who would define the future of the Republic.

Now, it occurs to me I'm being altogether far too helpful, so I'm going to get back to figuring out how numbers work.
 
Telamon said:
It is worth noting that what Sertorius does in Spain, at least initially, is nothing exactly out of the way for a Roman governor. He wars with the African raiders, kicks the Celtiberians in the teeth, and sets about Romanizing Hispania. He only begins to act as an independent ruler once Sulla wins and declares him proscribed, ordering him to return to Rome to, at the very best, be exiled. It is precisely this fate that he had hoped to avoid by having a power base in Spain — and one he did avoid for a long time thanks to that power base.

This is rather less Caesar in Gaul and more realpolitik — the best place in the world to be Sertorius at the moment is Spain. Establishing a kingdom or a Sertorian Republic is perhaps the furthest thing from his mind. Even during his civil war, history is still conflicted on if he saw himself as establishing a new independent state under his direct rule or as the head of a Marian rump state in Spain. Certainly, many prominent populares took the latter view, and fled Rome for Spain when Sulla returned. And indeed, if Sertorius had triumphed over Pompey in Spain, his ultimate goal was in all likelihood a march on Rome, and a third stage of the civil wars, not some sort of independence in the west.

The First Civil War might have been centered around great men, but unlike the later wars of the Triumvirs, it was not merely a pissing match over which strongman got to be the king of Rome in all but name (though that was a practical result). Rather, it was a clash of ideas and ideaologies, the populares and the optimates locked in life-or-death struggle for who would define the future of the Republic.

Now, it occurs to me I'm being altogether far too helpful, so I'm going to get back to figuring out how numbers work.
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...This sounds like Telamon is directly telling us that, giving the chaos of Rome, it would be safer for us to go with Sertorius to Spain to wait out the results of the war between Marius and Sulla. That the 'clash of ideologies' is in fact a life-and-death struggle, and that going to Spain would allow us to rest on the sidelines while the real throw-down was going on.

He does have a point: our 'intrigue' and 'subterfuge' scores are lousy.
 
Basically, the optimates are the old establishment, they're conservative, patrician, and supporters of Sulla. The most prominent member is Scaevola, our patron.

The populares are the reformers, ranging from 'burn it down and start over' to 'maybe a bit of land reform would be good'. They've been championed by Marius for some time and are ascendant. Sertorius is a moderate populare as is Atellus, I think, while mini Marius and Cinna are either more zealous, or are pandering to the more zealous wing.
 
Sounds like we should go to Hispania while training up our intrigue and subterfuge and keep up letter going with people in Rome. Also we don't necessarily need to stay?
 
Ridiculously Average Guy said:
pleps and young upperclass.
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Not really. Gaius Julius Caesar was a populares, but he would have had you executed for calling him a pleb.
Actually Telamon wrote a post about it:
Telamon said:
Snip
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Telamon said:
It is worth noting that what Sertorius does in Spain, at least initially, is nothing exactly out of the way for a Roman governor.
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That might be so in OTL, but the latest update makes me think he is already looking a bit farther ahead to the point where people will either have him proscribed or exiled as a potential rival.
 
The Insaniac said:
Basically, the optimates are the old establishment, they're conservative, patrician, and supporters of Sulla. The most prominent member is Scaevola, our patron.

The populares are the reformers, ranging from 'burn it down and start over' to 'maybe a bit of land reform would be good'. They've been championed by Marius for some time and are ascendant. Sertorius is a moderate populare as is Atellus, I think, while mini Marius and Cinna are either more zealous, or are pandering to the more zealous wing.
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Well, if you want to cut hairs about it, the most prominent optimate is Mamercus Livianus, Sulla's son-in-law. You haven't met him personally, but he and Scaevola were the ones to shut down Pompey's Conspiracy way back at the beginning of the game. He and Scaevola are about neck-and-neck for influence, though Scaevola is literally untouchable.

Livianus will go on to personally intercede on behalf of the young Julius Caesar with his father-in-law, and along with the Vestal Virgins, will be one of the primary reasons why Caesar, one of the most prominent Marians, isn't murdered in the Forum after Sulla wins.

And here is my detailed run-through of Rome's political parties:

Telamon said:
Roman politics were a confusing, brutal, and byzantine (heh) mess. I'll provide a few quick pointers for those of you not in the know or just a little rusty on your 2000-year-old political intricacies.

First off, the core of Roman politics in the late Republic: the Roman Senate, and it's divisions, the populares and the optimates.

The Roman Senate was the core of the Republic. Headed by two consuls who were elected every year, the Senate was composed of land-owning nobilis, Romans descended from Romans who had already sat on the Senate, or who had earned inclusion into the Senate through bravery or prestige. The populares and optimates were largely unofficial factions in the Roman Senate, organized along political lines.

The populares, as the name implies, were of the people. They courted the plebians and the lower classes, promising to fix their problems, inequalities of wealth, and provide them with jobs, food, and security -- the same things the poor have always wanted. The populares was often the party of demagogues and rabble-rousers, senators who rose to power by giving long speeches about making Rome great again. It was notably also the party of soldiers such as Gaius Marius, Mark Antony, and Julius Caesar, all of whom won glory on the battlefield and harnessed it into popular support at home. The populares were defined by their willingness to appeal to the people and use their popular support to defy the traditions and rules of the Republic, ultimately circumventing the democratic ideal of Rome.

As the game starts, the populares are the party of Gaius Marius, Rome's most famous general, who, with popular support, has seized the city of Rome from his enemy Sulla and the rival optimates.

The optimates were the polar opposite of the populares. Anchored in four centuries of tradition, they were the party of the aristocracy and the patricians, devoted to reducing the power of the plebians and the common folk and increasing the power of the Senate itself. By their nature conservative, they sought to keep the status quo of the Republic and prevent opportunistic generals like Caesar from becoming dictators.

Now, however, they are the party of Lucius Cornelius Sulla, a general almost as famed as Marius, who opposes the progressive reforms of Marius and his populares. Overseas defeating a rebellion in Greece when Marius seized power, Sulla is returning to Rome with a legion at his back as the game begins, and is supported by many old and powerful noble families in Rome herself.

These were not hard parties as we think of them today, but rather described the way a Senator chose to act. A Senator could, at different times through his life, court the people and support hardline legislation that curbed their rights. The populares and optimates were used to group senators who, at that moment in time, chose to consistently appeal to either the people or the aristocracy for support. They did not always work together as a unified party, and some often switched allegiances as convenient.

Now, one wonders, how can this be a democracy if the aristocrats control everything?

Well, to put it simply, they don't.

The People's Assembly, composed of all the plebians, or common people, of Rome, elects a Plebian Tribune each year. These tribunes represent the common people to the largely patrician Senate, and can convene the Senate, propose legislation, and act for the people in legal matters. Their most important power, however, is the veto, which gives the people a measure of control over the largely patrician Senate. Any assault on the person of a tribune is against the law -- a fact many tribunes have used to their advantage to physically stop the Senate from voting on a bill.

The plebs, optimates, and populares will all come into conflict in the waning years of the Republic, and Roman politics still hide a ocean's worth of complexity and mazelike contradictions, but this starter should get you brushed up on the terms that will be used frequently in this Quest.
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Publicola said:
...This sounds like Telamon is directly telling us that, giving the chaos of Rome, it would be safer for us to go with Sertorius to Spain to wait out the results of the war between Marius and Sulla. That the 'clash of ideologies' is in fact a life-and-death struggle, and that going to Spain would allow us to rest on the sidelines while the real throw-down was going on.

He does have a point: our 'intrigue' and 'subterfuge' scores are lousy.
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No, they are not. Our Subterfuge, the main sub rosa skill (if the only one we have), is Average going into Proficient, and we do have a servant with Renowned Subterfuge. Sure, there are more niche skills we are lacking in, like Espionage, but they are niche, so will be applied less, and again, Prosperina. Besides that, our survival in the clash is not going to be decided with only, or even mainly, subterfuge skills.

Also, I wouldn't be sure we are even going to be in or near Rome when the said clash happens. VI Legion could get moved somewhere away from it. Actually, @Telamon, can Sertorius get the VI even if we refuse his offer, or would he just not petition for it, in that case?
 
agumentic said:
No, they are not. Our Subterfuge, the main sub rosa skill (if the only one we have), is Average going into Proficient, and we do have a servant with Renowned Subterfuge. Sure, there are more niche skills we are lacking in, like Espionage, but they are niche, so will be applied less, and again, Prosperina. Besides that, our survival in the clash is not going to be decided with only, or even mainly, subterfuge skills.

Also, I wouldn't be sure we are even going to be in or near Rome when the said clash happens. VI Legion could get moved somewhere away from it. Actually, @Telamon, can Sertorius get the VI even if we refuse his offer, or would he just not petition for it, in that case?
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Realistically? He needs two legions to properly reclaim Spain from the Sullans. If he doesn't push for it however, then he may just end up with two Senate-levied legions of Marian veterans, especially as the Senate may be loath to lend him a legion already loyal to him if he doesn't push for it.

And yes, the VI legion, should it stay in Italia, could be used for quite literally anything Cinna or the Marians desire — whether that be garrisoning Rome, reinforcing Marius out east, or heading to Roman Gaul to tamp down the natives.

If it remains in Rome, it will certainly be on the front lines if the Civil War returns west — i.e, if Sulla wins it will be part of the Marian defense of Italia. Even if it goes to Gaul, it may well be called back for this purpose.

Of course, it could just as easily be assigned to the governors of Sicilia or Africa or one of the provinces.
 
Personally I think people are a bit overselling the danger we would be in if Sulla won. I'm honestly more worried about Marius first winning and then dying, making room for those bloodhounds Cinna and Marius the Lesser.

Depending on who becomes the next legate of the legion (if it is not assigned to Sertorius) we might be able to pull that backstab we were "offered" back when we first chose which legion to be a part of...
 
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Staying in Rome makes for a more interesting story, I feel.
 
I honestly don't know what to pick here.

Going to Spain or staying in Rome each has its pros and cons and either option may very well decide Atellus's fate.

So i'm a little stuck on what to vote for when the moratorium ends.
 
triumph8w said:
I honestly don't know what to pick here.

Going to Spain or staying in Rome each has its pros and cons and either option may very well decide Atellus's fate.

So i'm a little stuck on what to vote for when the moratorium ends.
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Imagine how Atellus feels. You have twenty-one centuries of analysis and historical documents at your beck and call. You know how the story ends, or how it should end.

Atellus is an 18-year old boy. His father is dead and his city is at war with itself. Any decision he makes may well decide not only his fate, but the fate of his friends and sisters. There are no easy answers. There is no best decision. Any choice you make might end with your death and the end of your name.

It will never get easier. Rome is not a city of blacks and whites, it is a city of red and crimson, of untruths and lies, of wrongs and lesser wrongs. The champion of today may be next year's prisoner, and the hero cheered in the Forum may await his execution on the morrow. The only true choice is to make a choice, the only certain death lies in uncertainty.

If Caesar had dithered on the Rubicon, he would have been lost.

Alea iacta est.
 
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I'd rather not abandon our mentor, honestly. Sertorius is a good guy to follow, but being in Rome has a certain thrill that I'm pretty excited to read about.
 
Honestly I think hispania may be the least risky of the options. It allows us to play more to our strengths and develop our skills in what may actually be a safer enviornment. Rome is a city of a thousand snakes, and our shit intrigue will do us no favors.
 
Lykantos said:
I'd rather not abandon our mentor, honestly. Sertorius is a good guy to follow, but being in Rome has a certain thrill that I'm pretty excited to read about.
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It is by no means certain that we will be staying in Rome either way. Going with Sertorius at least ensures that we will learn from the best about Warfare and get actual experience under him.

Also, Looking at the butterflies, relying on Meta knowledge too much might not be the wisest path.
 
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Ok so going to Spain has a lot of Pros. We get military experience being first, since we will be fighting warlords and Celts. Possible loot from all the fighting is also a pro. We be safe from the purge in Rome. Well it depends on who wins the civil war since it is up in the air now.

Going to spain would fully put us not in any of the factions burning bridges and we would not benefit from any of the looting and power grabs afterward. Huge fortunes were made by the winners. We could on the winning side make enough money to raise legions or buy positions.

Staying in Rome would allow us to make contacts and help things in Rome. We are right now in a strange place on being in between both factions from mentors and action. Also not burning any bridges among the major factions.

Bad is that we may be on the loosing side and if we stay will be involved in the civil war. But Marius is alive and Pompei is mad at Sulla faction. It can be up to the dice and the GM who wins.

I firmly believe we should get married to a wife that is amazing at intrigue. We need to cover the deficit the character has.
 
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Telamon said:
And yes, the VI legion, should it stay in Italia, could be used for quite literally anything Cinna or the Marians desire — whether that be garrisoning Rome, reinforcing Marius out east, or heading to Roman Gaul to tamp down the natives.

If it remains in Rome, it will certainly be on the front lines if the Civil War returns west — i.e, if Sulla wins it will be part of the Marian defense of Italia. Even if it goes to Gaul, it may well be called back for this purpose.

Of course, it could just as easily be assigned to the governors of Sicilia or Africa or one of the provinces.
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xa na xa said:
Staying in Rome makes for a more interesting story, I feel.
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triumph8w said:
I honestly don't know what to pick here.

Going to Spain or staying in Rome each has its pros and cons and either option may very well decide Atellus's fate.

So i'm a little stuck on what to vote for when the moratorium ends.
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Lykantos said:
I'd rather not abandon our mentor, honestly. Sertorius is a good guy to follow, but being in Rome has a certain thrill that I'm pretty excited to read about.
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Nurgle said:
Staying in Rome would allow us to make contacts and help things in Rome. We are right now in a strange place on being in between both factions from mentors and action. Also not burning any bridges among the major factions.
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Choosing to not join Sertorius doesn't mean we're staying in Rome, I don't think?

The VI Legion could be sent pretty much anywhere after this, so this isn't really a Sertorius vs Rome decision, as we have no reason to think we're staying in Rome as opposed to going anywhere else. That's my understanding anyway.
 
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