Puella Magi Interficio Antitheus

Sereg · Apr 7, 2016

LostDeviljho said:
Then she's not that powerful. Omnipotence paradox.

I haven't called her omnipotent in this discussion, nor do I believe she's omnipotent. Not being omnipotent doesn't make you weak.

Interacting with immature witches proves she can do more than interact with witches. yeah. riiiiight...

Tatsuya is not an immature witch. Also, Word of God is that Madoka is the imaginary friend of every toddler ever.

Cite. I hear people say this all the fucking time, and as far as I can tell, it's nearly entirely baseless.

Kyuubey demonstrably didn't want Madoka's wish granted. It was granted anyway. In addition, he says that the wish that can be granted depends on the girl's potential. In addition, the miracles wishes caused are clearly implied to be based on emotion. As such, the girl is granting her own wish. Also, with exact words, Homura would have only gotten one loop. Then there's the fat that Kyousuke's violin playing was perfect after his hand was healed, despite that not being how it works. Because Sayaka wanted his music restored, not just his hand. Then there's the fact that Kyouko wished for people to listen to her father, but more than that was accomplished. People actually came to him to listen to him in the first place and believed him. It becomes even more obvious in the spinoffs. Oriko wished to know the meaning of her life. She didn't get an answer. She got visions to help her understand. Kirika wished to become a different person. She only changed her personality so she could be what Oriko wanted. Suzune wished to become a magical girl like her mentor. She got the ability to get her mentor's powers, rather than just being a generic magical girl. Even Madoka's speach after contracting makes it clear that what she wanted is being fulfilled and we even see some of it.

Where? I don't recall this.

End of episode 6, when he's explaining Soul Gems.

The3rdCorinthian · Apr 7, 2016

...Whats the evidence that Madokami is even related to managing the universe excluding megucas and (possibly) hope?
Because if the answer is Entropy, I feel the need for the argument to stop until Gen explains just how long it would take the universe to end without Qbers.

LostDeviljho · Apr 7, 2016

Sereg said:
I haven't called her omnipotent in this discussion, nor do I believe she's omnipotent. Not being omnipotent doesn't make you weak.

You said you believed her to be on par with the monotheistic God. Who is omnipotent. If she's not omnipotent, she's not on that level.

Sereg said:
Tatsuya is not an immature witch. Also, Word of God is that Madoka is the imaginary friend of every toddler ever.

WOG is that Tatsuya can see her because toddlers can see things that aren't there. Note the "aren't there". I've never heard the one that she's the friend of all toddlers ever.

Sereg said:
Kyuubey demonstrably didn't want Madoka's wish granted. It was granted anyway.

That has nothing to do with this, why are you mentioning it?

Sereg said:
Also, with exact words, Homura would have only gotten one loop.

No, because she failed to protect madoka, which was in the wish, and thus she would need another loop.

Sereg said:
Then there's the fat that Kyousuke's violin playing was perfect after his hand was healed, despite that not being how it works. Because Sayaka wanted his music restored, not just his hand.

Kyousuke's violin playing was perfect before his accident, restoring him to the way he was before the accident would fix it.

Sereg said:
Then there's the fact that Kyouko wished for people to listen to her father, but more than that was accomplished. People actually came to him to listen to him in the first place and believed him.

Kyouko wished for people to listen to her father. A bunch of people listened to her father.

Sereg said:
Oriko wished to know the meaning of her life. She didn't get an answer. She got visions to help her understand.

And what does that have to do with the intent? if intent mattered, the results of the wish would get more specific, not less.

Sereg said:
Kirika wished to become a different person. She only changed her personality so she could be what Oriko wanted.

A broad wish like that can have many possible outcomes. "only" having one of those outcomes is not evidence that there's more factors at work.

Sereg said:
Suzune wished to become a magical girl like her mentor. She got the ability to get her mentor's powers, rather than just being a generic magical girl.

She couldn't have become a generic magical girl, it's right there in the wording of her wish. "I want to become a magical girl like you."

Sereg said:
Even Madoka's speach after contracting makes it clear that what she wanted is being fulfilled and we even see some of it.

So we're back to using madoka's wish as "evidence" that intent is the important bit, when you were just using intent being the important bit as evidence to justify your interpretation of Madoka's wish.
I hope you can see the circular logic here.

Sereg said:
In addition, the miracles wishes caused are clearly implied to be based on emotion. As such, the girl is granting her own wish.

This, right here, is the only point in that paragraph that's properly valid, and honestly? It's not enough for me to believe.

Sereg said:
End of episode 6, when he's explaining Soul Gems.

Thank you.

Sereg · Apr 7, 2016

LostDeviljho said:
You said you believed her to be on par with the monotheistic God. Who is omnipotent. If she's not omnipotent, she's not on that level.

No, I didn't.

WOG is that Tatsuya can see her because toddlers can see things that aren't there. Note the "aren't there". I've never heard the one that she's the friend of all toddlers ever.

"toddlers" plural. ie. more than Tatsuya. Doesn't stop the act that she's interacting with non-MGs.

That has nothing to do with this, why are you mentioning it?

Because it means that Kyuubey couldn't stop it, so he's not granting the wish. Madoka is. If Madoka is granting the wish, her intent, not her wording, matters.

No, because she failed to protect madoka, which was in the wish, and thus she would need another loop.

Exact words. If she did absolutely anything that would be of protective value to Madoka (which she did, many times), she has protected her, even if not from what she intended to protect her from. This proves i's intent, not wording.

Kyousuke's violin playing was perfect before his accident, restoring him to the way he was before the accident would fix it.

She could have worded it that way, admittedly. It's just another piece of evidence.

Kyouko wished for people to listen to her father. A bunch of people listened to her father.

They did not just listen to him. They cam to him for the purpose of listening to him. What's more, they didn't just listen to him, they believed him and kept returning and gave him enough money so his family stopped starving, none of which would be fulfilled by the exact words of "I wish for people to listen to my father".

And what does that have to do with the intent? if intent mattered, the results of the wish would get more specific, not less.

If wording mattered, she;d get what she said. If intent mattered, she'd get what she meant. She didn't get what she said.

A broad wish like that can have many possible outcomes. "only" having one of those outcomes is not evidence that there's more factors at work.

Which proves that it's not just wording. ie. It's intent.

She couldn't have become a generic magical girl, it's right there in the wording of her wish. "I want to become a magical girl like you."

And yet she has a different weapon, costume, appearance and powerset. She got what she intended to get from her mentor.

So we're back to using madoka's wish as "evidence" that intent is the important bit, when you were just using intent being the important bit as evidence to justify your interpretation of Madoka's wish.
I hope you can see the circular logic here.

It's only circular if I'm using my conclusion to derive my answer. The show framed what she said as things that would happen and showed some of them on screen. That's not my conclusion. That's evidence from the show.

LostDeviljho · Apr 7, 2016

Sereg said:
No, I didn't.

Hmm, checking, it appears I misread.

Sereg said:
"toddlers" plural. ie. more than Tatsuya. Doesn't stop the act that she's interacting with non-MGs.

Toddlers in general, i.e. the classification of small children. Doesn't mean that more than Tatsuya can see her, and Tatsuya is an explicit exception to the rule, and will lose the ability to perceive her in any fashion as he matures.

Sereg said:
Exact words. If she did absolutely anything that would be of protective value to Madoka (which she did, many times), she has protected her, even if not from what she intended to protect her from. This proves i's intent, not wording.

It doesn't. Even if it running of wording only, doesn't mean it limited only to exact wording.

Sereg said:
They did not just listen to him. They cam to him for the purpose of listening to him. What's more, they didn't just listen to him, they believed him and kept returning and gave him enough money so his family stopped starving, none of which would be fulfilled by the exact words of "I wish for people to listen to my father".

Sure it would. She wished for people to listen to him, large numbers of people listened to him. Donations would come from him not spouting complete gobbletygook.

Sereg said:
If wording mattered, she;d get what she said. If intent mattered, she'd get what she meant. She didn't get what she said.

She wished to learn the meaning of her life, she learned the meaning of her life, it simply didn't happen instantly. How is this difficult?

Sereg said:
Which proves that it's not just wording. ie. It's intent.

No, it doesn't. It only proves that if it's just wording and you make a broad wish, you won't get all the possibile ways the wish could be fulfilled.

Sereg said:
And yet she has a different weapon, costume, appearance and powerset. She got what she intended to get from her mentor.

I don't see her intending to get what she got. And the wish was "like you" not "the same as you". Like meaning "similar to". Not necessarily the same.

Sereg said:
It's only circular if I'm using my conclusion to derive my answer. The show framed what she said as things that would happen and showed some of them on screen. That's not my conclusion. That's evidence from the show.

you're using a "intent matters" to support your interpretation of that sequence, and your interpretation of that sequence as evidence that "intent matters". Seems pretty circular. Maybe a bit oval, I guess, but still recursive.

AuraTwilight · Apr 7, 2016

I'm responding to all of this yet, the conversation got kind of passed over...

But Madoka CAN overturn a girl's wish, if she chooses to. She outright tells Sayaka she could save her by undoing her contract having ever happened. Madoka's wish to prevent wishes by her own hand/interpretation apparently affords her the ability to rewrite causality in such a way.

RexHeller · Apr 7, 2016

Right, well I'm not going to stop the argument (it's nice to see the thread active) I will explain the basics of Madokami and the Devil relating to this quest. That last bit is important. For the purposes of this quest Madokami is near omnipotent with a high level of control over the entire universe. She is not omniscient or omnipresent. She can see anything in the entire universe but she has to do so consciously. She is not seeing everything at the same time. If she wants to know something she has to actually learn it. She did not intend for the Devil to steal her power and was blindsided. Also, outside of rescuing Meguca from becoming witches she doesn't actually do much because her own moral rules hold her back. She's still Madoka Kaname, a 14 year old Japanese girl, just with nearly unlimited power and that means she's just as smart/dumb as she was before she became a god.

The Devil, when she stole Madokami's power, became just as powerful as Madokami, just with out any of those pesky morals that were holding Madoka back. She started futzing about with the universe pretty much from the word go. However, she was also still a teenage girl and without the knowledge of what she was doing or a wish to guide the restructuring she was basically taking a sledgehammer to the place and putting back together with duct tape. After that she went "eh, good enough" and a hundred years later she was to far into her madness to notice when things started falling apart.

Again, all this is just canon for this quest and really, it has noting much to do with anything at the moment. Feel free to keep arguing about actual canon if you like.

AuraTwilight · Apr 7, 2016

FelOnyx said:
They also make you a Magical Girl. She didn't wish to turn into the Law of Cycles. The Law of Cycles is the manifestation of her wish, but nothing in it says the Law of Cycles is all that she can be. Becoming Hope is a byproduct of being an insanely powerful magical girl, borderline divine, and then breaking the universe.

She became Hope not because that was what she wished for. The manifestation of her wish is the Law of Cycles alone. But wishing also makes you into a magical girl. Being Hope came from the magical girl aspect. When she BSOD'd the multiverse by annihilating Ultimate Kriemhild Gretchen, I speculate, (because seriously there isn't an exact guide to PMMM metaphysics, they're kinda weird, and we've all only got our best guesses) it put her at the center of all the universes, increasing her power level infinitely beyond just Homura's hundred-some loops. A Magical Girl of this absurd level of power becomes pretty much the platonic ideal of Magical Girl; if magical girls represent hope, and Madoka desires to bring hope, then she becomes Hope.

This, thematically speaking. Madokami is basically the only true Magical Girl by standard genre conventions, but more than that, all Magical Girls are 'Hope'. It's just they're other things besides hope. Hope is a part of them, in a metaphysical, empirical way beyond what it is for humans, but they're still luminous points of light bound in shells of meat (or in their case, crystal), and that hope decays and degenerates.

Madoka became a Hope that does not decay, does not change, but shines and sings eternal, in all time and in all space. She is always everywhere, and so she is everywhere Hope exists as an idea and beyond. And what's more, she cast away everything about her that WASN'T Hope. Her life, her birth, her death, her time and her memory. The warmth of sunlight on her face and the taste of her father's eggs. She cast aside happiness and despair and ignorance and causality and past and future and here and there and 'Kaname' and to all but Homura she even cast away 'Madoka'.

She became a concept that's bigger than the universe, weaving between all possible worlds, so that nowhere in all the planes can Witches exist. So that in all possible worlds, Magical Girls can smile until the end. She became Hope, fighting forever, because all Magical Girls will eventually become a part of her, and they all fight for their own hopes and dreams.

She's something unobservable, ephemeral, intangible. An idea that cannot be interacted with, cannot be seen or changed (Yea, I know, Rebellion, but no one cares, Homucifer is bullshit). She became something people yearn for but can never prove. She became something the Incubators can never understand and yet wish to profit from.

She became something that lifts people up. Magical Girls can keep fighting because they know it will be alright. Multiple times, Homura nearly fell, but got back up again in remembrance, refusing to give in to despair.

I don't know what else to call all that except Hope. If you never heard of 'Madoka Kaname' or 'The Law of Cycles', it'd probably be the first thing that comes to mind.

Perhaps you can call her a god. But what is a god, but the hope of mankind, imagined, dreamed, loved, and prayed to, in order to assuage their fears and give them peace of mind in their final moments?

Madoka is Hope. She can't be called anything else. It's the fundamental essence of what she is.

Incidentally, Madokami can and does interact with the world beyond "preventing witches and hangin' out with Tatsuya." Wraith Arc has multiple Divine Interventions occur to save Homura's bacon and/or to otherwise collaborate her insane stories, because there's a Magical Girl running around who can get in dire straights, then experience a Soul Gem cleanse as a huge magical event beyond the potential of a mortal Magical Girl does huge bombastic bullshit.

It's the reason the Incubators trapped Homura, probably. But hey. So Madokami can totally interact with causality outside of preventing witches. This is canon. Discuss?

@RexHeller thanks for the input!

The3rdCorinthian · Apr 7, 2016

RexHeller said:
Right, well I'm not going to stop the argument (it's nice to see the thread active) I will explain the basics of Madokami and the Devil relating to this quest. That last bit is important. For the purposes of this quest Madokami is near omnipotent with a high level of control over the entire universe. She is not omniscient or omnipresent. She can see anything in the entire universe but she has to do so consciously. She is not seeing everything at the same time. If she wants to know something she has to actually learn it. She did not intend for the Devil to steal her power and was blindsided. Also, outside of rescuing Meguca from becoming witches she doesn't actually do much because her own moral rules hold her back. She's still Madoka Kaname, a 14 year old Japanese girl, just with nearly unlimited power and that means she's just as smart/dumb as she was before she became a god.

The Devil, when she stole Madokami's power, became just as powerful as Madokami, just with out any of those pesky morals that were holding Madoka back. She started futzing about with the universe pretty much from the word go. However, she was also still a teenage girl and without the knowledge of what she was doing or a wish to guide the restructuring she was basically taking a sledgehammer to the place and putting back together with duct tape. After that she went "eh, good enough" and a hundred years later she was to far into her madness to notice when things started falling apart.

Again, all this is just canon for this quest and really, it has noting much to do with anything at the moment. Feel free to keep arguing about actual canon if you like.

...You've never used the Term Homucifer or Akuma to my knowledge...
I mean it could mean nothing, but my paranoia is screaming right now.

RexHeller · Apr 7, 2016

The3rdCorinthian said:
...You've never used the Term Homucifer or Akuma to my knowledge...
I mean it could mean nothing, but my paranoia is screaming right now.

Good.

AuraTwilight · Apr 7, 2016

"Expecting a cute braids girl? Too bad, it was me, Sayaka!"

LostDeviljho · Apr 7, 2016

AuraTwilight said:
"Expecting a cute braids girl? Too bad, it was me, Sayaka!"

Sereg · Apr 7, 2016

LostDeviljho said:
Toddlers in general, i.e. the classification of small children. Doesn't mean that more than Tatsuya can see her, and Tatsuya is an explicit exception to the rule, and will lose the ability to perceive her in any fashion as he matures.

Toddlers in general by definition includes every toddler, or at least, every toddler outside of exceptions. Even if it's only Tatsuya, he's still interacting with a non-MG, which you're claiming she can't do.

It doesn't. Even if it running of wording only, doesn't mean it limited only to exact wording.

Yet, you're limiting Madoka to exact wording. You're saying that she can't do anything that wasn't in the exact words of her wish, but here is proof that wishes aren't limited to exact wording so yo can't give Madoka that limit either.

Sure it would. She wished for people to listen to him, large numbers of people listened to him. Donations would come from him not spouting complete gobbletygook.

They came to him first. Exact wording would require him to seek them out. Exact wording would also mean that they'd be no more inclined to believe him and no more inclined to donate.

She wished to learn the meaning of her life, she learned the meaning of her life, it simply didn't happen instantly. How is this difficult?

She got visions. Not what she wished for. Again, not limited to the wording.

No, it doesn't. It only proves that if it's just wording and you make a broad wish, you won't get all the possibile ways the wish could be fulfilled.

Just wording by definition requires all the possible ways.

I don't see her intending to get what she got. And the wish was "like you" not "the same as you". Like meaning "similar to". Not necessarily the same.

Fair enough. Again it's just evidence.

you're using a "intent matters" to support your interpretation of that sequence, and your interpretation of that sequence as evidence that "intent matters". Seems pretty circular. Maybe a bit oval, I guess, but still recursive.

No, I'm not. I'm seeing adoka claing that she wants to do things. The show framing them as things that will happen. And the show showing on screen some of those things happening. Intent isn't required for any of that interpretation.

AuraTwilight said:
I'm responding to all of this yet, the conversation got kind of passed over...

But Madoka CAN overturn a girl's wish, if she chooses to. She outright tells Sayaka she could save her by undoing her contract having ever happened. Madoka's wish to prevent wishes by her own hand/interpretation apparently affords her the ability to rewrite causality in such a way.

Yes, she can prevent a girl from making the wish in the first place. I mean that if she chooses to allow the girl to make the wish, she can't choose to have the wish not "work".

The3rdCorinthian · Apr 7, 2016

LostDeviljho said:

...I'm not sure how i feel about this.

RexHeller · Apr 7, 2016

The3rdCorinthian said:
...I'm not sure how i feel about this.

..... I love it.

LostDeviljho · Apr 7, 2016

Sereg said:
Yet, you're limiting Madoka to exact wording. You're saying that she can't do anything that wasn't in the exact words of her wish, but here is proof that wishes aren't limited to exact wording so yo can't give Madoka that limit either.

I'm saying that literally becoming Hope has fuck all to do with her wish and it's too much of a stretch for me to believe.

Sereg said:
They came to him first. Exact wording would require him to seek them out.

Not necessarily. The wording says nothing about who, if anyone goes anywhere.

Sereg said:
Exact wording would also mean that they'd be no more inclined to believe him and no more inclined to donate.

The issue was they wouldn't listen in the first place.

Sereg said:
She got visions. Not what she wished for. Again, not limited to the wording.

She learned the meaning of her life, which is what she wished for. Wish effects are not guarantee'd to be instantaneous. See Kyouko, or Homura, or a number of spin-off guca.

Sereg said:
Just wording by definition requires all the possible ways.

No it doesn't. :wtf:

That's fucking stupid, don't be stupid.
A wish is only fulfilled in one way, even if there are many possible ways it could be fulfilled. besides, she wished to become a different person, singular.

Sereg said:
No, I'm not. I'm seeing adoka claing that she wants to do things. The show framing them as things that will happen. And the show showing on screen some of those things happening. Intent isn't required for any of that interpretation.

She does X. She wants Y to happen too. Y is a logical side effect of X, thus, Y happens too. This is not evidence toward Intent shaping the wish.

AuraTwilight · Apr 7, 2016

LostDeviljho said:
I'm saying that literally becoming Hope has fuck all to do with her wish and it's too much of a stretch for me to believe.

What does it mean to "literally become Hope"?

Re:Wishing and intent, I'd be remiss if a supernatural reality-warping effect fueled by personal emotional investiture doesn't take intent into account. If Sayaka is to be taken at face value (and collaborated by a couple Tart Magica characters), you might not even need to speak your wish outloud.

Also, Homura's wish strongly implies intent. It changes her powerset to protect Madoka's memory when Madoka no longer physically exists, and turns her into the fucking Devil when the only way to protect Madoka is to usurp GOD.

LostDeviljho · Apr 7, 2016

AuraTwilight said:
It changes her powerset to protect Madoka's memory when Madoka no longer physically exists

Didn't it do that because wraithverse Homu was already an MG?

AuraTwilight · Apr 7, 2016

It's ambiguous on whether she was already a Magical Girl, but it specifically points out Homura as having Memory Magic because she remembers someone who doesn't exist.

akrasiel23 · Apr 7, 2016

LostDeviljho said:
Didn't it do that because wraithverse Homu was already an MG?

If memory serves me right, it changes also because Homura is stripped from her time traveling powers.

LostDeviljho said:

By obligation, I need to contribute.

Sereg · Apr 7, 2016

LostDeviljho said:
I'm saying that literally becoming Hope has fuck all to do with her wish and it's too much of a stretch for me to believe.

Witches are made of grief. What would you call something that ends an emotion but another emotion?

Then, let's look at her wish and what she said about it

"I really want this; It's the answer I've been looking for, I swear.
I promise I won't ever let your efforts be in vain.
Believe me, Homura."

"I wish...
I wish I had a power to erase witches before they're born.
Every single witch from the past, present and future, everywhere."

"I don't care what I become.
All the magical girls, who believed in hope and fought witches, I don't want them to suffer or cry anymore.
I want them to be at peace.
And if that goes against the laws of universe, then I'll just rewrite those laws.
That's the only thing I want.
It's what I wish for.
Now, grant my wish, Incubator!"

"I know. And I'm ready.
If someone ever tells me it's a mistake to have hope, well then, I'll just tell them they're wrong, and I'll keep telling them 'til they believe.
No matter how many times it takes."

"Don't worry.
I won't let your wishes end in despair.
None of you have to hate anyone, or curse anyone.
I'm here to take all that burden for you.
So please... keep believing in yourselves... to the very end.
That's enough. It's all right now.
You don't have to hate anyone anymore.
And you don't have to curse anyone anymore either.
I'll go back before you turned into this, and take the burden of all your pain."

"No, it's all right."

"Remember?
I wished for the power to erase all witches.
And if what I wished for really did come true,
then even I... don't have a thing to worry about ever!"

"Uh-uh.
That's not true, Homura."

(in response to Homura calling it fate worse than death)

"Now I can see everything that's ever happened and everything that ever will.
I see all the universes that could've been, and all the universes that are waiting to be born.
Really."

"I see it all, and I finally know... I know all the things you've done for me through out all those different timelines.
All of it.
All the times you cried and all the time you got hurt, but you kept fighting for me.
I'm so sorry, I never knew until now.
I'm so sorry."

"I had to become what I am now to really know the kind of person you are.
And you were there all alone, the most amazing friend someone like me could ever have.
I'm so glad I know now.
So, thank you, Homura...
For all that's happened, you truly were my very best friend."

"Mm-hm.
But I'm not alone.
You are always going to be with me, and so will everyone else.
Because from now on, I'll be everywhere for all time.
Even if you can't see me or hear me, I'll be right there by your side, Homura."

"Uh-uh.
It's a little soon to be giving up hope.
You managed to follow me all the way out here, didn't you?
Besides, even though you're going back to your world, maybe you'll still remember me.
I mean you never know, right.
You'll see, everything will be fine.
Just believe."

"We are magical girls, remember?
We make hopes and dreams come true.
They might not happen all the time, but there's no doubt miracles can really happen.
Don't you think?"

Emphasis added. Note how much she talks about hope.

Not necessarily. The wording says nothing about who, if anyone goes anywhere.

And as such, it wouldn't move people around, so he could only talk to people who were already there.

The issue was they wouldn't listen in the first place.

He was excommunicated for heresy. That requires people to have known what he was saying and to disagree with it. And people only left after he changed what he preached. So they noticed the difference and disliked it.

She learned the meaning of her life, which is what she wished for. Wish effects are not guarantee'd to be instantaneous. See Kyouko, or Homura, or a number of spin-off guca.

And she learned more than that.

No it doesn't. That's fucking stupid, don't be stupid.
A wish is only fulfilled in one way, even if there are many possible ways it could be fulfilled. besides, she wished to become a different person, singular.

Exact words can't differentiate, so something other than exact words is making the differentiation.

She does X. She wants Y to happen too. Y is a logical side effect of X, thus, Y happens too. This is not evidence toward Intent shaping the wish.

Again, framing.

The3rdCorinthian · Apr 7, 2016

akrasiel23 said:
By obligation, I need to contribute.

I am even less sure what I think about this...

Durden · Apr 7, 2016

Good day to you, how's everyo...

*arrives to see walls and walls of text"

yes, hell if I'm going to read all of that...

LostDeviljho · Apr 7, 2016

Sereg said:
Witches are made of grief. What would you call something that ends an emotion but another emotion?

I believe I've stated my opinion on trying to use philosophical terminology to inflate Madokami's ability.
Witches have physical existence, thus anything with a physical existence can interact with them.

Sereg said:
Emphasis added. Note how much she talks about hope.

Note how almost none of that is her wish and just her being philosophical and reassuring Homura.

Sereg said:
And as such, it wouldn't move people around, so he could only talk to people who were already there.

There's nothing in the wish saying it wouldn't.

Sereg said:
And she learned more than that.

Your point?

Sereg said:
Exact words can't differentiate, so something other than exact words is making the differentiation.

Maybe. I don't believe "intent" is it, though.

Sereg said:
Again, framing.

Means nothing.

Hyp3rB14d3 · Apr 7, 2016

Sereg said:
Witches are made of grief. What would you call something that ends an emotion but another emotion?

Then, let's look at her wish and what she said about it

"I really want this; It's the answer I've been looking for, I swear.
I promise I won't ever let your efforts be in vain.
Believe me, Homura."

"I wish...
I wish I had a power to erase witches before they're born.
Every single witch from the past, present and future, everywhere."

"I don't care what I become.
All the magical girls, who believed in hope and fought witches, I don't want them to suffer or cry anymore.
I want them to be at peace.
And if that goes against the laws of universe, then I'll just rewrite those laws.
That's the only thing I want.
It's what I wish for.
Now, grant my wish, Incubator!"

"I know. And I'm ready.
If someone ever tells me it's a mistake to have hope, well then, I'll just tell them they're wrong, and I'll keep telling them 'til they believe.
No matter how many times it takes."

"Don't worry.
I won't let your wishes end in despair.
None of you have to hate anyone, or curse anyone.
I'm here to take all that burden for you.
So please... keep believing in yourselves... to the very end.
That's enough. It's all right now.
You don't have to hate anyone anymore.
And you don't have to curse anyone anymore either.
I'll go back before you turned into this, and take the burden of all your pain."

"No, it's all right."

"Remember?
I wished for the power to erase all witches.
And if what I wished for really did come true,
then even I... don't have a thing to worry about ever!"

"Uh-uh.
That's not true, Homura."

(in response to Homura calling it fate worse than death)

"Now I can see everything that's ever happened and everything that ever will.
I see all the universes that could've been, and all the universes that are waiting to be born.
Really."

"I see it all, and I finally know... I know all the things you've done for me through out all those different timelines.
All of it.
All the times you cried and all the time you got hurt, but you kept fighting for me.
I'm so sorry, I never knew until now.
I'm so sorry."

"I had to become what I am now to really know the kind of person you are.
And you were there all alone, the most amazing friend someone like me could ever have.
I'm so glad I know now.
So, thank you, Homura...
For all that's happened, you truly were my very best friend."

"Mm-hm.
But I'm not alone.
You are always going to be with me, and so will everyone else.
Because from now on, I'll be everywhere for all time.
Even if you can't see me or hear me, I'll be right there by your side, Homura."

"Uh-uh.
It's a little soon to be giving up hope.
You managed to follow me all the way out here, didn't you?
Besides, even though you're going back to your world, maybe you'll still remember me.
I mean you never know, right.
You'll see, everything will be fine.
Just believe."

"We are magical girls, remember?
We make hopes and dreams come true.
They might not happen all the time, but there's no doubt miracles can really happen.
Don't you think?"

Emphasis added. Note how much she talks about hope.

And as such, it wouldn't move people around, so he could only talk to people who were already there.

He was excommunicated for heresy. That requires people to have known what he was saying and to disagree with it. And people only left after he changed what he preached. So they noticed the difference and disliked it.

And she learned more than that.

Exact words can't differentiate, so something other than exact words is making the differentiation.

Again, framing.

So I notice Madoka says several things that are blatantly untrue, even before we take Rebellion into account. Either she's being misquoted, her intent wasn't fully reflected in her wish, or she was outright lying to appease Homura.

Puella Magi Interficio Antitheus

Banned Forever

Flame Dragon Princess

Banned Forever

Flame Dragon Princess

The Sorcerer of Smiles

Title Incoming. Please Hold.

The Sorcerer of Smiles

Title Incoming. Please Hold.

The Sorcerer of Smiles

Flame Dragon Princess

Banned Forever

Title Incoming. Please Hold.

Flame Dragon Princess

The Sorcerer of Smiles

Flame Dragon Princess

The Sorcerer of Smiles

A wraith no more

Banned Forever

Flame Dragon Princess

Gotta catch 'em all!