akrasiel23
A wraith no more
- Location
- Peru
I consider Ultimate Madoka something closer to a Seraphim, a really powerful guardian angel that acts as Hope for the Magical girls, but beyond them she had no power.
Puella Magi Interficio Antitheus
- Thread starter RexHeller
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AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
Well, Mami (and/or the hallucination of Madoka's encumbent omniscence) has another opinion on the matter.
Alternatively, Madokami knows that the Homucifer situation is going to end up ultimately best for everyone due to whatever's gonna happen in the new movie. Any appearance to the contrary is due to Madokami being manifest as a freshly-out-of-amnesia Physical God that hasn't yet returned to being a metaphysical concept free of temporal restrictions.
Hyp3rB14d3
Gotta catch 'em all!
So Akuma Homura fixes entropy when she takes over the universe?
akrasiel23
A wraith no more
- Location
- Peru
On the contrary, because she traps everyone in her version of Instrumentality, she will eventually kill all of the wraiths and prevent them from respawning, which means no constant grief to keep entropy at bay.
And because the Incubators are all busy bearing the curses of everyone, there is no chance of creating a system that can use another emotion as base template.
Hyp3rB14d3
Gotta catch 'em all!
So destroying the universe = fixing everything?
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
Or, whatever course of events that stops Homucifer also has to satisfy her and so a world better than Madoverse and Homuverse is created to narratively satisfy everything.
- Location
- South Africa
"You're not just bringing hope, you're becoming Hope itself."
What's more, wishes work based on intent an Madoka spent a long time thinking about exactly what she wanted to achieve. She makes it clear that she intended to achieve a lot with her wish and it would be weird for her to leave out non-MGs when a huge part of her character is how she ares about absolutely everyone.
Which would only be a problem if that was permanent. Hence me saying that Rebellion only makes sense if Madoka knew it would happen and would be temporary. Personally, I think she allowed Rebellion to happen so that Homura could deal with her issues.
LostDeviljho
Flame Dragon Princess
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That's a nice platitude and all, but it's not literal. Madokami is a law of physics, not an emotion. The fact that she's a sentient law of physics doesn't change that.
Except that she, y'know, did. The only people Madokami directly helped were the Magical Girls.
akrasiel23
A wraith no more
- Location
- Peru
Gotta be with Deviljho on this one, Madoka's wish is only directed towards the Magical Girls, but she has no reach beyond them.
I take it like she is a patron saint for the Magical Girls, a rather powerful one but vulnerable when she comes to Earth.
I take it like she is a patron saint for the Magical Girls, a rather powerful one but vulnerable when she comes to Earth.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
Not to be pedantic, but in the PMMM!verse, Hope and Despair are both emotions and metaphysical laws. They're also energy.
Madoka is the concept of Hope. She is the propagation of space. She is the birth of a new universe. She is Salvation and the reward of all Magical Girls so they can smile in the end. She is deliverance, and she is the denial of the darkest of futures.
She is literally the personification of the idea that things will be better, and it's not over for you. Yes, she only applies to Magical Girls because that's what's relevant, but Magical Girls are just humans given artificial access to humanity's birthright and potential. What happens with the Law of Cycles if, hypothetically, humans figure out how to use magic without Kyubey?
There's honestly infinite possibilities for how things can develop with the universe in the trillions of years it has to reach Heat Death even if Kyubey quits his job right now. If Madoka says things will work out, I'm going to take her word for it. If it involves information the audience and Homura-as-viewpoint-character doesn't have yet, we'll have to wait and see. But I can literally speculate about assloads of possibilities that don't require Madoka to be a liar.
And considering the universe got rewritten twice in a month as of Rebellion, saying Madokami's too limited to deliver on any of these possibilities is irrelevant; she might not do so under the familiar post-episode 12 status quo, but Rebellion's main point was showing off how much this is likely to change if the Law of Cycles is allowed to interact and behave in any kind of abnormal way.
Madoka is a Goddess bound into the rule that is the Law of Cycles. When the Law of Cycles is no longer needed, when the cycle is finally closed and no longer need spin, what becomes of the chains that bind her actions? When she must no longer eternally fight, what does she do with her infinite time-beyond-time?
What does one do with all possible magical powersets, full access to all time and space, and absolute no obligations or responsibilities that restrict what you can and cannot do?
Hyp3rB14d3
Gotta catch 'em all!
So you're saying Madoka begging Homura to stop and crying out in agony because Homura was tearing her apart were Madoka manipulating Homura so Homura would work through her issues and not her begging Homura to stop because Homura was hurting her?
Rebellion only makes sense if Madoka let it happen and was deliberately manipulating Homura (which I find to be out of character for Madoka, but perhaps not out of character for the law of cycles) or if she didn't know it was going to happen. I fall firmly on the latter side of the belief.
LostDeviljho
Flame Dragon Princess
- Location
- The glorious Pacific Northwest
- Pronouns
- Any
The fact that Hope and Despair are metaphysical laws and types of energy are irrelevant, because she is not either of them.
No, she isn't. She's the concept of "magical girls not becoming witches". That's it.
Trying to pretty it up and inflate her ability and domain via usage of philosophical language is... Well, I'm too tired to think of a prettier way to say it; It's really fucking stupid.
She's not bound by the Law of Cycles, she is the law of cycles.
Anyway, I need to get to bed. If you respond, I won't be able to reply back for a while. g'night.
- Location
- Pittsburgh, PA
[x] Tell Mami about what you learned.
-[x] Talk about the Magical Girl you have just met.
-[x] Mention the names you have heard and this…scenario she is mentioning.
[x] Ask Mami questions.
-[X] What is a month?
-[X] What do you call a park?
-[X] What do you refer to by 5 o Clock?
-[X] Consult if she knows about the girls you have mentioned.
[X] Discuss who of the two girls mentioned is more approachable.
-[X] If possible, plan to contact her If the meeting with Oriko goes wrong.
[X] …Do you have…What was it called? A dictionary you could lend me?
-[x] Talk about the Magical Girl you have just met.
-[x] Mention the names you have heard and this…scenario she is mentioning.
[x] Ask Mami questions.
-[X] What is a month?
-[X] What do you call a park?
-[X] What do you refer to by 5 o Clock?
-[X] Consult if she knows about the girls you have mentioned.
[X] Discuss who of the two girls mentioned is more approachable.
-[X] If possible, plan to contact her If the meeting with Oriko goes wrong.
[X] …Do you have…What was it called? A dictionary you could lend me?
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
Or Madoka's omniscience was blocked during Rebellion since she had descended and was immanent instead of transcendent.
Or Homura's time magic and karmic connection to Madoka makes her a blind-spot in Madoka's omniscience and she believed in Homura too much to even consider being hurt by Homura of all people.
Look, I'm just sayin' that a fragment of Madoka's own god-consciousness wearing Mami's face said she was becoming Hope itself, yo. That's the text of the work.
Hyp3rB14d3
Gotta catch 'em all!
Except Madoka was in her goddess form when Homura struck, and had been that way for about a minute. And even if her goddess powers were still blocked, if the Law of Cycles was omniscient, she would have Homura's betrayal before she went into Homulilly's barrier.
If there's a blind spot in it, then by definition, it is not omniscience.
- Location
- South Africa
There is absolutely zero evidence for any of this. The fact that there is any evidence at all for the alternate hypothesis means that the support outweighs yours an infinite amount.
Madoka blocked her own omniscience as she had demonstrated her ability to do so earlier in that very movie. If she didn't, it means that Modoka lied about her powers in the show, which is out of character.
Hyp3rB14d3
Gotta catch 'em all!
Assuming the Law of Cycles has true omniscience, she would have known how Madoka would behave when cut off from the rest of the Law. If she sent herself in anyways, then she did so knowing she would drive Homura over the edge. Deliberately manipulating someone into a psychotic break is far more out of character for Madoka than simply misunderstanding her powers.
- Location
- South Africa
If driving Homura over the edge would mean that Homura would heal to be better off than if she never went over the edge, would tjat not be best for her and would Madoka not realise this?
And how does someone mistakenly think they have omniscience?
RexHeller
Title Incoming. Please Hold.
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Nope and easily.
- Location
- South Africa
Example?
Hyp3rB14d3
Gotta catch 'em all!
Madoka suddenly knew everything the girls she absorbed knew, from every timeline that they had existed in. That's a lot of knowledge, all gained at the same time, cutting back throughout history. On top of that, Kyubey had just said she was becoming a god, and omniscience is something occasionally associated with gods. I can easily see her concluding that all her newfound knowledge comes from omniscience.
akrasiel23
A wraith no more
- Location
- Peru
Just as you said, she gained the knowledge of all the girls who died and became witches, but by that logic, she is blind to how would act those who have yet to reach their end. That's why she didn't foresaw Homura's betrayal, she never understood how deep was her obsession with her.
RexHeller
Title Incoming. Please Hold.
- Location
- Somewhere else.
As for the "nope", letting someone suffer, even if it benefits them in the long run, isn't in Madoka's nature. She'd kind and caring to a fault, so no tough love from her. It's similar to how Shirou Emiya will try to save everyone, even if killing one person will save thousands and saving absolutely everyone is impossible. If the only way, the absolute only way, Homura could be at peace and become truly happy was for her to do the Rebellion thing then Madoka wouldn't accept that and would attempt the impossible to make her happy without having to suffer.
LostDeviljho
Flame Dragon Princess
- Location
- The glorious Pacific Northwest
- Pronouns
- Any
All the evidence is for it, because that's what was shown to happen.
- Location
- Pittsburgh, PA
Honestly, if you want a wish that would stop all the fuckery in PM3 from happening?
Try "I wish the Incubators had never existed", or "I wish the Incubators had never discovered humanity."
At least then you're just altering the past, not hacking the root programming of the universe and trying to brute-force retcon fundamental components of it out of existence.
Try "I wish the Incubators had never existed", or "I wish the Incubators had never discovered humanity."
At least then you're just altering the past, not hacking the root programming of the universe and trying to brute-force retcon fundamental components of it out of existence.