Puella Magi Imperatrix Mundi, or: Wherein Half Of Japan Tries To Kill You

[Genial Precis]

Even if we mentioned that we're new to magical girling the demeanor and attitude is very much about inducting them into our plans and ways of doing things, and Yui's short-but-colorful track record of running around singlehandedly engaging incusions with violence or diplomacy as necessary certainly doesn't give the impression that she's a peer.

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I don't think Yui has to (or is likely to) be at all deceptive about the breadth of her experience. I think acting in charge (and her short-but-colorful track record is enough precedent), having a plan and having Maiko (and the rest) visibly defer to her is actually completely sufficient to be both completely honest and obviously the authority.

So I think I'm completely agreeing with you. Yui can protest her newbieness all she wants (and her OODA loop is much tighter than ours, so that's as it should be) without losing an ounce of perceived authority. But probably ending up somewhat more approachable than hypothetical nega-Yui with a very different management style?

Another point about grief thermodynamics. I think witches/magical girls are pretty clearly much more concentrated/energetic phenomena than most of the magical things around. Echo did some theorycrafting about how in order to get a lot of magic output, you need to have sustainable and structured but powerful emotions, and that the magical girl process sort of captures a girl at her peak useful emotional state (which I think gets at the idea of Potential) and then locks her into sustaining that. I don't remember it super well.

So, being the most magic-dense things around, grief seeds are a good match to the grief production of a magical girl, whereas everything else is usually so diffuse that you need an awful lot of it.

In some ways it also bears a resemblance to high end military hardware? Like, a latest generation fighter jet takes economic output equivalent to a few million person-hours of skilled labor in a technological society, but that concentration of resources can accomplish things that you couldn't accomplish with a few million person-hours not concentrated into such a high-performance machine. The analogy breaks down because a fighter jet isn't so useful (or at all, really) outside the system in which it is employed, whereas a magical girl has no equivalent context.

 

[Echo]

their morale is still quite good presumably, on average, and now they can support each other and probably make friends.

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Sayuki and Hana are both pretty firmly inclined to a "well, let's make the best of things" mindset so they are and will likely continue to be fine, morale-wise, as long as the overall situation is good. Reiko has... specific reasons to be optimistic right now, though she's not as overtly optimistic by nature; more importantly, however, she's already demonstrated a tendency to assert herself in the face of broken expectations, so Maiko and Yui both have her pegged as "unlikely to wallow in negative emotions" which means she should be stable even when relatively unhappy. Sae is... much harder to get a read on, but she at least seems to be enjoying herself?

And of course there's Minami and Tomo, who Yui's already spent time doing meguca things with, so they're not "newbies" to the same degree.

You know that, and we know that, but do the recruits know that? And are Yui and those already aligned with her presenting themselves as fellow newbies in need of guidance and learning, or as seniors ready and able to teach the new girls The Way Things Are? Because I got the impression that it was the latter.

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Okay, fair enough. Between Minami being clearly well-informed and Tomo being Tomo, they're likely to come across as far more experienced than they actually are.

Maiko: I'm made to be mad scientist, and when I'm in position of leadership without anyone above tell me stop... like today... things become... fun and exciting! Ha ha ha ha! Glados! Bring me test subjects! Forget limits and safety!

Glados: What test are we performing today? Will cakes be involved?

Yui: Stop! Abort! Turn back! I command you to stop!

Maiko: But it's too much fun!

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Unfortunately for Maiko, the closest thing to GLaDOS available is her own Witch form.

Echo did some theorycrafting about how in order to get a lot of magic output, you need to have sustainable and structured but powerful emotions, and that the magical girl process sort of captures a girl at her peak useful emotional state (which I think gets at the idea of Potential) and then locks her into sustaining that. I don't remember it super well.

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Emotional volatility produces raw magic potential, structured thinking converts raw magic into useful forms. This is why bunnycats cannot into magic, since their ability to generate it is virtually nil. Humanity as a whole is basically the perfect balance between being able to produce plenty of magic while still being rational enough to make use of it.

The idea of "karmic potential" is actually drawing from the raw magic production--i.e., emotional volatility--causally linked to the girl in question, whether it's their own experiences or that of others, essentially letting the girl borrow a huge amount of hypothetical magic from the future, invalidate that future via controlled reality warping to avoid having to pay it back, and then eventually allowing the bunnycats to collect a large portion of that magical energy when the witch-out process releases it in a form they can work with.

 

[Aunty Shi Ping]

Injecting even a fraction of a typical Soul Gem's capacity worth of corruption into a living being basically inflicts them with a permanent and severe case of clinical depression.

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But how small a fraction? What about a city-spanning array to spread the grief out over everyone?(or everything?) There must be, what? hundreds of thousands of people living there? and mayeb a dozen M.G.s? Parts-per-thousand is rather more diluted than you'll typically see in a one-to-one transfer.

!!! Even better! Make a greese grief-gun and shoot familiars with it! Has she tried transferring grief to a witch's familiar? She managed to restrain that one way back when she first took us into its barrier for heavy-artillery training...

[] "Remember to ask for help! If you have a problem, I don't want any of you to be too shy or embarrassed get help. We all have things we regret, things we thought made us defective, things that we think we should be embarrassed by, and we all have times when a little bit of help could have changed our lives. I want us to be a community that helps, and doesn't shame or ridicule for asking. Take, for example, Maiko's uniform! We can laugh and call it silly, or we can celebrate its awesomeness, while the rest of us can only wish we had a uniform that awesome, except Tomo." *Kamen fist-bump/high-five* *Look at Maiko and just wait expectantly, silently, as long as it takes.*

 

[Krika]

I've mentioned it before so that might be why? It's very silly and not super sophisticated or anything but it's very much the kind of thing Yui would enjoy reading.

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I'm pretty sure I found out about it on a Discord server, but that would have been ages ago (over a year ago probably) so maybe my memory's just playing tricks.

Okay, fair enough. Between Minami being clearly well-informed and Tomo being Tomo, they're likely to come across as far more experienced than they actually are.

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It's funny, but the whole "ridiculous information asymmetry advantage" as Yui phrased it at Konno and having several experienced veterans willing to back her up means that unless she explicitly lets people know how new she is, Yui is pretty much never going to seem like a newbie to people without magic that would key them in (like Konno) or enough experience to make the leaps of logic necessary.

 

[Echo]

But how small a fraction? What about a city-spanning array to spread the grief out over everyone?(or everything?) There must be, what? hundreds of thousands of people living there? and mayeb a dozen M.G.s? Parts-per-thousand is rather more diluted than you'll typically see in a one-to-one transfer.

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As far as Maiko knows, 10 units of corruption is enough to negatively impact quality of life for a human on a potentially permanent basis, while 100 units would be somewhere between "can't muster the motivation to commit suicide" and "might as well just lie down and wait for starvation".

Most mamals have a maximum capacity in the single digits at best, and any measurable amount sends them straight to the catatonic level of reaction.

!!! Even better! Make a greese grief-gun and shoot familiars with it! Has she tried transferring grief to a witch's familiar? She managed to restrain that one way back when she first took us into its barrier for heavy-artillery training...

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I mean, Maiko would totally fit in among the "PMMM quest voter" crowd and has been meguca for 7-ish years. As a rule of thumb, anything that you guys might think of she's probably thought of as well, and has in fact tried it if practically and ethically possible.

In that specific case, the problem is that in an active familiar or Witch, the soul is sort of "diffused" into an overlay applied to a region of space rather than being a discrete object (the physical "body" inside the barrier is just a puppet, like a meguca's body). In theory her transfer device could still work, but practically it's not viable without the intentional cooperation of the familiar/Witch, an unlikely prospect at best.

She's also considered feeding animals to familiars but that runs into the same problems of scale (needing many hundreds to grow a stable Grief Seed instead of just a few humans) and lack of control (familiars tend to wander off and there's not much she can do about it).

 

[Evilness42]

the "PMMM quest voter" crowd

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practically and ethically possible.

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I think there's a problem with your expectations.

 

[Tallamee]

But how small a fraction? What about a city-spanning array to spread the grief out over everyone?(or everything?) There must be, what? hundreds of thousands of people living there? and mayeb a dozen M.G.s? Parts-per-thousand is rather more diluted than you'll typically see in a one-to-one transfer.

!!! Even better! Make a greese grief-gun and shoot familiars with it! Has she tried transferring grief to a witch's familiar? She managed to restrain that one way back when she first took us into its barrier for heavy-artillery training...

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"Inflicting indeterminate, and on the whole, relatively minor suffering on an objectively limited portion of the total population in existence for the prolongation of survival in the face of hostile laws of reality," the Incubator says before continuing, "I am glad we are in agreement."

I am aware that the above is not vey nice, but I am playing the devil's advocate, just a bit.

 

[DarkLight140]

Most mamals have a maximum capacity in the single digits at best, and any measurable amount sends them straight to the catatonic level of reaction.
...
She's also considered feeding animals to familiars but that runs into the same problems of scale (needing many hundreds to grow a stable Grief Seed instead of just a few humans) and lack of control (familiars tend to wander off and there's not much she can do about it).

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This actually sounds like we're just a couple engineering problems away from being able to convert dollars into grief seeds- or rather, into magical girl survival time.

A standard factory farm operation that's already slaughtering animals in their thousands on a regular basis could almost certainly support at least one magical girl indefinitely even on a one-animal-destined-for-slaughter-is-one-grief-point basis. We'd just need to figure out how to make moving the grief to the animals practical and make sure there are no ill effects from eating them (presumably not as grief is nonphysical, but safety testing is important). Similarly, having hundreds of animals available to feed to familiars is a problem of money, authority, space, and secrecy- and enough money can buy the other three, after which "familiars tend to wander off" is a problem of detection and control which can probably be solved by someone like Shinobu, or failing that another appropriate wish/research combination.

Ultimately the fact that animals can sink grief at all means that as long as we're willing to inflict suffering and misery on them it is, in principle, possible to have a vastly larger magical girl population while remaining safe and stable even in the absence of sufficient witches.

 

[Echo]

I think there's a problem with your expectations.

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Well, I mean... maybe, maybe not?

I'm honestly pretty sure Maiko's more ethically flexible than quite a few of the voters here. She's pretty much a hardcore consequentialist with basically two rules she tries to follow to keep herself from veering into the kind of Stupid Evil territory memetically associated with "For the Greater Good" types.

As for practicality, she does kinda have to actually implement her ideas to try them, so that's to be expected. She has plenty of hypothetical experiments she'd love to run if she had a way to do so.

 

[Void spirit]

I think there's a problem with your expectations.

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If we add less moral and practical options that's, that means even more options turn out dead end.

So let's for example feed dead sentence criminals to familiars, or spread corruption on multiple humans (which they permanently keep in life). How long until we run out?

Even we are willing to go further, we still have problems of higly diminishing returns limiting numbers of meguca who can be supported, along high risk of normals catching up fast on what is going on and turn guns on us for reason of self defense.

 

[Guile]

Yes. It's really easy to sound that way when we're attempting to create an organization of people which are held together by close emotional bonds and personal loyalty to a powerful and charismatic central figure that keep closely to moral beliefs at odds with their peers and are ready and willing to use violence to defend their beliefs. The fact that we're drawing on a subsection of the populace predisposed to be emotionally isolated from the world at large (Kyubey did the isolating, not us, but it's still there) and focus heavily on providing them with positive emotional reinforcement in order to build group loyalty only makes the parallel closer. Oh, and we tell them that the world outside our control is full of dangerous and very likely hostile people who won't hesitate to hurt or kill them if they don't stick with us, that too.

But we're not a cult, I swear.

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We should make pin buttons.

 

[Void spirit]

A standard factory farm operation that's already slaughtering animals in their thousands on a regular basis could almost certainly support at least one magical girl indefinitely even on a one-animal-destined-for-slaughter-is-one-grief-point basis.

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Far future... Cloned meat, 3d printers producing meat and organs, or push for more hydroponics and vegetarianism... or food in pills...

gets huge political opposition from ultra rich megucas who secretly own those factories.

 

[Echo]

This actually sounds like we're just a couple engineering problems away from being able to convert dollars into grief seeds- or rather, into magical girl survival time.

A standard factory farm operation that's already slaughtering animals in their thousands on a regular basis could almost certainly support at least one magical girl indefinitely even on a one-animal-destined-for-slaughter-is-one-grief-point basis. We'd just need to figure out how to make moving the grief to the animals practical and make sure there are no ill effects from eating them (presumably not as grief is nonphysical, but safety testing is important). Similarly, having hundreds of animals available to feed to familiars is a problem of money, authority, space, and secrecy- and enough money can buy the other three, after which "familiars tend to wander off" is a problem of detection and control which can probably be solved by someone like Shinobu, or failing that another appropriate wish/research combination.

Ultimately the fact that animals can sink grief at all means that as long as we're willing to inflict suffering and misery on them it is, in principle, possible to have a vastly larger magical girl population while remaining safe and stable even in the absence of sufficient witches.

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The scale needed is probably only viable with some degree of masquerade-breaking because of the non-magical infrastructure involved, but yes. There's actually two ways it could work, even; either injecting corruption into animals that are slaughtered in order to empty out existing Grief Seeds as a sort of recycling system, or slaughtering animals inside the barrier of a familiar until it becomes a Witch and thus forms a new, 100% non-Soylent-Green Grief Seed.

Shinobu is unfortunately not a general-purpose solution to having "tame" familiars--the communication barrier is too high for her power to work on them, even with Maiko translating.

On the other hand, it's not out of the question to find a Witch that would participate in such a scheme voluntarily, but finding one lucid enough with the right motivations is not easy, either.

...the biggest issue, of course, is that any way of reducing witch-outs is going to be opposed by the Incubators as soon as it's demonstrated to be successful, sustainable, and scalable.

 

[Evilness42]

Well, I mean... maybe, maybe not?

I'm honestly pretty sure Maiko's more ethically flexible than quite a few of the voters here. She's pretty much a hardcore consequentialist with basically two rules she tries to follow to keep herself from veering into the kind of Stupid Evil territory memetically associated with "For the Greater Good" types.

As for practicality, she does kinda have to actually implement her ideas to try them, so that's to be expected. She has plenty of hypothetical experiments she'd love to run if she had a way to do so.

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I'll admit that, on the whole, PMMM Quest Voters on SV aren't going to vote for unethical or impractical plans. This does not, however, indicate that all Quest Voters would not vote for unethical or impractical plans. Just because she's a couple standard deviations above average doesn't mean she's anywhere near the top!

This just means you haven't experienced enough of the sort of stuff that can win votes Anonkun or QQ, which both have a degree of population overlap with SV. It's just that the overall expectations, voting culture, and mod presence here (mod existence more like in the case of Anonkun) means that sort of thing just won't come up.

 

[Void spirit]

On the other hand, it's not out of the question to find a Witch that would participate in such a scheme voluntarily, but finding one lucid enough with the right motivations is not easy, either.

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Which is when some will inevitably suggest engineering it, if they have enough knowledge of system.
Like manipulation life of candidates toward right wishes and witching in right mental state. Or use of soul manipulating powers to shape existing witch.

Very easy to get out control. Along with desperate and best avoided.

If going that far might as well look in engineering Madoka-like wishes with low success rate.

...the biggest issue, of course, is that any way of reducing witch-outs is going to be opposed by the Incubators as soon as it's demonstrated to be successful, sustainable, and scalable.

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What of that proposal where animals are fed to familiars until growing in witch?

That produces more seeds into system which are filled up.

This not producing as much energy or what?

 

[veekie]

In that specific case, the problem is that in an active familiar or Witch, the soul is sort of "diffused" into an overlay applied to a region of space rather than being a discrete object (the physical "body" inside the barrier is just a puppet, like a meguca's body). In theory her transfer device could still work, but practically it's not viable without the intentional cooperation of the familiar/Witch, an unlikely prospect at best.

She's also considered feeding animals to familiars but that runs into the same problems of scale (needing many hundreds to grow a stable Grief Seed instead of just a few humans) and lack of control (familiars tend to wander off and there's not much she can do about it).

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Huh, are stray familiars that hard to capture and keep captured?

 

[Aunty Shi Ping]

Oh, hey, small issue with story structure. Maiko's outfit appears to only be described in a sidestory. Yui's response to it when encountered in reader-mode is thus lacking context, unless the reader read the sidestories first, which seems the less likely order. It also doesn't apparently appear in the informational posts, so looking for a reference doesn't help either. Between some aspects of Yui's reaction, and the absence of anything described, I somewhat considered, at the time, that what was absent from the description, was actually absent from the outfit, which would have then consisted solely of the cape, and presumably a great deal of anime censorship physics of flowing black smoke.

 

[Genial Precis]

On the other hand, it's not out of the question to find a Witch that would participate in such a scheme voluntarily, but finding one lucid enough with the right motivations is not easy, either.

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That's the thing, though. Maiko's grimoir is a stupidly effective cheat sheet for finding potentially cooperative witches. Just reading the witch descriptions is a reasonably sensitive pre-filter on whether a witch is even remotely likely to be amenable to that sort of thing. For example:

By the way, if you want to know the other half of why Maiko freaked a bit at Yui's description of her soul gem as "looking at" things: ...

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Maiko's own witch will apparently surrender to someone who bests it in a battle of wits. I recall thinking at the time that Yui might be able use her own wish magic to beat Maddalena in such a battle, thereby winning her cooperation. I'm not clear on what "surrender" might practically mean. I wrote a terrible omake in which Maddalena's barrier had been converted into a university. Terrible in the sense of poorly written as well as in the sense of witching out for tenure.

 

[Echo]

Which is when some will inevitably suggest engineering it, if they have enough knowledge of system.
Like manipulation life of candidates toward right wishes and witching in right mental state. Or use of soul manipulating powers to shape existing witch.

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Well, you do have access to a meguca with soul manipulating powers. Sort of. (Some assembly required.)

What of that proposal where animals are fed to familiars until growing in witch?

That produces more seeds into system which are filled up.

This not producing as much energy or what?

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Familiars growing up produces far, far, less energy than a meguca becoming a witch.

Huh, are stray familiars that hard to capture and keep captured?

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How exactly would you capture one in the fist place?

A stray familiar is more like a localized phenomenon than a being with a physical form. Like, if you drag the "body" of a familiar outside the region influenced by its proto-barrier it'll just dissolve into unbound magic and be reconstructed inside the barrier again. They don't even notice walls enough to be conscious of drifting past them.

Oh, hey, small issue with story structure. Maiko's outfit appears to only be described in a sidestory. Yui's response to it when encountered in reader-mode is thus lacking context, unless the reader read the sidestories first, which seems the less likely order. It also doesn't apparently appear in the informational posts, so looking for a reference doesn't help either.

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Argh! Yes, I realized that myself some time back and then forgot again before I figured out a good way to fix the issue.

Between some aspects of Yui's reaction, and the absence of anything described, I somewhat considered, at the time, that what was absent from the description, was actually absent from the outfit, which would have then consisted solely of the cape, and presumably a great deal of anime censorship physics of flowing black smoke.

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Poor Maiko.

Anyway, yeah, I'm thinking I should add a description... at the end of the Lorelei fight? I think that's the first time she actually transformed around Yui.

In the meantime, for anyone new who didn't read the entire thread, here's a very rough, old sketch for Maiko's costume:

 

[Aranfan]

... She looks like a digimon.

 

[Echo]

That's the thing, though. Maiko's grimoir is a stupidly effective cheat sheet for finding potentially cooperative witches. Just reading the witch descriptions is a reasonably sensitive pre-filter on whether a witch is even remotely likely to be amenable to that sort of thing.

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Figuring out if a particular Witch would be amenable to cooperation, yes, absolutely. Maiko can also communicate directly with Witches well enough to explain the idea, if they'll listen.

Finding such a Witch is the difficult part, not recognizing one.

Maiko's own witch will apparently surrender to someone who bests it in a battle of wits. I recall thinking at the time that Yui might be able use her own wish magic to beat Maddalena in such a battle, thereby winning her cooperation. I'm not clear on what "surrender" might practically mean. I wrote a terrible omake in which Maddalena's barrier had been converted into a university. Terrible in the sense of poorly written as well as in the sense of witching out for tenure.

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Personality-wise, Maiko's Witch is basically a lovecraftian GLaDOS. Basically, if someone could communicate with her well enough to talk !!Science!! then she'd happily cooperate rather than, say, disassembling them for research purposes like she might otherwise do.

Alexandria--Yui's Witch--would actually be more helpful, since she'd be capable of absorbing corruption from visiting meguca directly and of partially fusing with other Witches in a way that would allow synergy between whatever remains of their wish magic.

... She looks like a digimon.

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That explains Yui's goggles then, right?

 

[veekie]

How exactly would you capture one in the fist place?

A stray familiar is more like a localized phenomenon than a being with a physical form. Like, if you drag the "body" of a familiar outside the region influenced by its proto-barrier it'll just dissolve into unbound magic and be reconstructed inside the barrier again. They don't even notice walls enough to be conscious of drifting past them.

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Just figured the same kinds of effects used in the grief balancer should be able to contain a familiar.

I suppose its not exactly PORTABLE.
Unlike Yui

 

[Aunty Shi Ping]

Maiko has a device in her apartment
"overfill" a Grief Seed by a considerable amount
currently several hundred seeds stored

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Containmentfailuresayswhat?
I mean, it is not as though the world is free of malicious actors...

We really are going to need to help Maiko on her quest to convert grief seeds into soul gems. Maybe... I mean, they lose their coherence, their... sense of purpose? and their wish is an affirmation of such, so... witching is a... breaking?(in a rather literal and physical way) of their wish? So... maybe therapy them into -no, brainwash them into a shape in which their wish would be restored to its normal structure. Or... with sufficiently refines magical sensors and manipulators, maybe reconstruct it by force... some sort of magic robot might be able to do that. But then the soul gem would be full of grief and just witch again... but forming a barrier would expel grief, so if you just repeated the process over and over again they should be restored, more-or-less. Kyuddles might even help at the prospect or mutilating souls into witching over and over again like squeezing a sponge until their grief is low enough that they can retain cohesion for a time. But all this speculation is pointless because witches aren't magical girls, that would just be silly.

How exactly would you capture one in the fist place?

A stray familiar is more like a localized phenomenon than a being with a physical form. Like, if you drag the "body" of a familiar outside the region influenced by its proto-barrier it'll just dissolve into unbound magic and be reconstructed inside the barrier again. They don't even notice walls enough to be conscious of drifting past them.

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Maybe instead of a prison we could use bait. If Maiko could find a way to make something that 'smells' like food but can't be eaten, well, familiars don't seem like the best at figuring out solutions to their problems or noticing if they are stuck in a rut.

here's a very rough, old sketch for Maiko's costume:

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SQUEE!

 

[Aoinfinity]

A standard factory farm operation that's already slaughtering animals in their thousands on a regular basis could almost certainly support at least one magical girl indefinitely even on a one-animal-destined-for-slaughter-is-one-grief-point basis.

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Keep in mind that anything that affects the animal's stress level before it dies is going to have a noticeable impact on the quality of meat. This is why slaughterhouses try to kill humanely. Anything that panics a dying animal is going to cause involuntary muscle responses, which keep its meat from being in as good condition.

See here for more information on why this is a real, documented thing. While I'm glad to live in a world where meat corporations have incentives against cruelty, it does end up making this particular exploit problematic.

 

[Echo]

The consensus looks pretty clear at this point, so I'm probably gonna close votes in an hour or two once I'm finished with some chores and stuff.

Adhoc vote count started by Echo on Jan 26, 2020 at 10:00 PM, finished with 95 posts and 18 votes.

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  8 people have voted

  [X] Educational. Let Maiko take the lead, and help her coach the newbies through combat.
  -[X] Emphasize that they work together, either fighting together or tag-teaming and watching each other's back
  [X] Particular guidance:
  -[X] Never fight alone. One person is much more vulnerable to things suddenly going wrong.
  -[X] Help the newbies schedule paired witch hunting
  -[X] Call for backup if the witch is unusually strong. There's nothing to prove.

  • Genial Precis
  • Aranfan
  • Storyteller
  • Void spirit
  • Shaseyu
  • Krika
  • Hestia&theCourt
  • robinic

  5 people have voted

  [X] Educational. Let Maiko take the lead, and help her coach the newbies through combat.

  • notgreat
  • Aunty Shi Ping
  • BlackMangoAde
  • Dark Lord Potato
  • Yobikir

  4 people have voted

  [X] Relaxed. Focus more on getting to know these girls than on the Witch hunting.

  • veekie
  • Ambrosine
  • Taut_Templar
  • Olivebirdy

  1 people have voted

  [X] Educational. Let Maiko take the lead, and help her coach the newbies through combat.
  -[X] Relaxed. Focus more on getting to know these girls than on the Witch hunting.

  • Reinholdt