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Puella Magi Imperatrix Mundi, or: Wherein Half Of Japan Tries To Kill You

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redzonejoe said:
Just fyi, that last post wasn't really about the vote anymore. It's more of a larger picture "how do we want to handle things going forward?" discussion, which is obviously strongly related to this vote, but I wasn't particularly attempting to sway the vote with that post. Unless Nevill there works miracles I've basically accepted that the vote is over and I just want to get everybody on the same page about Yui's self-imposed responsibilities and what they actually mean in practice.
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That she's going to break them or they're going to break her eventually. There are going to be more Naomis, worse ones even, that you can't negotiate with or fix or... anything really but kill them. Yui's idealism also strikes me as something that will react in a somewhat... polarized(?) way to the witchbomb for some reason I can't quite articulate.

I don't really mind the idealism myself, the problem is that it... it always turns sour unless it's tempered by a pragmatic, if perhaps more optimistic leaning, streak as well. Especially in a system where you really just can't win in the end. (Homura is Hax and Madoka is the Hax beyond Hax, so don't even try to cite them in this).

On a separate note, anyone read "As N approaches Infinity"? Cause, yeah. We could use some Barrier type thing over our very obvious soul gem.
 
Noumero said:
@ShadowAngelBeta, @redzonejoe, it's "Naoko". Her name is Naoko Fujita, not "Naomi".
I am appalled at your inability to memorize the name of Best Girl.
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Best girl?!!!!

...

Well, it's not a voice calling for Naoko's death, so I'll take it. (Why do I feel so dirty?)

Seriously though, Naoko's not going to be hard to deal with compared to other girls, because the main person we know of that she's wronged is... Kaede.

Just wait until we give shelter to a girl whose victims are still alive and want to kill her! That will be fun.

(Wait, isn't there someone in Furuhata's group like that?)
 
I haven't really had time to write in the past few days, but looks like I might as well close the voting at this point regardless. Also I think this was another Red Team victory?

In any case, update should be finished at some point between tomorrow and Friday, depending on how much time I have to work on it.
Adhoc vote count started by Echo on Feb 20, 2018 at 9:16 PM, finished with 10257 posts and 22 votes.
  • [x] Plan Less Of A Jerk
    [X] Plan Delightfully soft, and yet still firm.
    [X] You know what position her group is in perfectly, in fact. You're sympathetic - being short of Grief Seeds and stuck in the middle of an imploding group must suck.
    [X] The thing is, though, that despite the fact that you're well aware of her reasons for going behind her group leader's back this time, this isn't the first time. And this kind of behaviour tends to tear apart groups violently.
    [X] You're perfectly willing to make a similar deal to the one she suggested (though perhaps less tied to the territory itself), with her group, but not at the cost of bringing bullshit Tokyo politics into it, if at all possible. That's counterproductive to the stability you're trying to build, within Nagamioka and without.
    [X] Does she have any way of addressing your concerns?
    [X] Possible alternative proposals; What are her thoughts on them?
    -[X] Convincing Furuhata to come talk to us and listen when we tell her about her group's problems and how we would like to help. Does Konno think it's possible, and is she willing to possibly forfeit her shot at leadership and still help if the problems can be worked out that way?
    -[X] Ask Maiko if Konno could be trusted to become part of our intel group and behave herself, and if we could integrate the other personalities. If yes, also offer a full annexation of the entire group.
    [X]This arrangement seems loosely amenable so far, so lets get down to the brass tacks of the agreement.
    -[X]Konno knows we are an Aikawa, so we should demonstrate that. Tell her that we will lease the territory for some agreed upon time with a few conditions, for now with a more open ended agreement for after the first lease ends
    --[X]The duration of the initial lease should be for no more than 2 months for now, and no less than 2 weeks
    -[X]Start negotiations at 50/50 split of GS collected, but be willing to move as far as 40/60 of the GS collected, in their favor.
    --[X]if pressed argue that Witches are especially abundant presently, and that the relatively short duration of the lease will allow for renegotiation of terms as the situation changes with more simplicity
    -[X]Yui's group must be notified of all magical girls that enter or are in the lease territory, and a member of Yui's group must be present for any meetings with such magical girls. Our fluffy Mephistopheles is currently on a recruiting spree through Nagamioka, and we want to prevent any unfortunate accidents.
    [X] Plan Work-study Program
    -[X] You know what position her group is in perfectly, in fact. You're sympathetic - being short of Grief Seeds and stuck in the middle of an imploding group must suck. However, you really need to not go behind her leader's back on this. Suggest she act as a go-between and bring an offer to Furuhata. Get her leader to at least meet telepathically - or preferably in person with whoever she wants to bring - to hammer out details. She can claim we contacted her or whatever if she wants, as long as she gets that meeting for us.
    -[X] Suggest that you could take on problem children from her group as a sort of trial period. Attach them to existing groups in your territory. They can hunt well, as long as they are willing to do it using the guidelines and patrol routes you've worked out for optimal hunting. A third of every gem they acquire could be sent back to the Tokyo group as a sort of loaner fee. If things don't work out, you send them back none the worse and with a few new Grief seeds under their skirts. The name of the game is friendly relations and efficient cooperation/collection of Grief seeds.
    --[X] Chizuka - or Tsurumi, but probably not both - could do well under Yumi or Koharu.
    --[X] Tamazaki or Miyu or Konno herself could do well under your aegis personally, or possibly the Gundam trio. So that, frankly, you could keep an eye on Tamazaki or Konno with the understanding that if they start farming familiars or backstabbing the group you will come down on them like a ton of pink bricks.
    --[X] Heck, Furuhata and Oshigiri could potentially hold down their own territory in Nagamioka or their current location so long as they were willing to pay heed to us, their adorable overlord.
    -[X] You'll check in with the relevant Nagamioka groups as necessary. We want any group's input before we stick them with a new member, and to address their concerns properly.
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Echo said:
Also I think this was another Red Team victory?
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Indeed it was, though not without a lot of bickering. But then, I guess that's par for the course with this quest... and by no means am I claiming to be blameless here.

...it's a really good thing Yui can't hear us. Our arguing would absolutely derail everything for her.
 
SystemicHatter said:
(Wait, isn't there someone in Furuhata's group like that?)
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Pretty sure both Maiko and Yumi have their fair share of enemies.
ShadowAngelBeta said:
That she's going to break them or they're going to break her eventually. There are going to be more Naomis, worse ones even, that you can't negotiate with or fix or... anything really but kill them. Yui's idealism also strikes me as something that will react in a somewhat... polarized(?) way to the witchbomb for some reason I can't quite articulate.

I don't really mind the idealism myself, the problem is that it... it always turns sour unless it's tempered by a pragmatic, if perhaps more optimistic leaning, streak as well. Especially in a system where you really just can't win in the end. (Homura is Hax and Madoka is the Hax beyond Hax, so don't even try to cite them in this).
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If you can't win through optimism, then you haven't backed up your optimism with enough raw power.

In my opinion, this is not a problem Yui has.

Artist's rendering of what Yui Aikawa looks like, from the perspective of her enemies:



Not to mention, we literally have a mind controller on staff for the worst possible situations. It's better than cold murder.
 
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Guile said:
Not to mention, we literally have a mind controller on staff for the worst possible situations. It's better than cold murder.
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(who is 100% opposed to actually using that power and isn't actually allied to us, unless we have a second I've forgotten about. Also the choice between mind control and death presents a legitimate ethical question)

But don't let me of all people get in the way of optimistic pacifism.
 
Guile said:
Pretty sure both Maiko and Yumi have their fair share of enemies.
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Everyone has enemies and rivals. He is talking about someone committing a deed that we can't support or condone under any kind of justification, like the murder of Momoko's sister. This was an unambiguously evil act, and there might be a situation where we will have to deal with another person like this while the ones wronged by them sill live, and very cross with us if we wanted to redeem them. Something that alienates the very people we want to ally with for the - perceived - benefit of someone we should by all means be working against.

Not an unsolvable situation by any measure, especially if you have power to have it your way, but a very uncomfortable one.
 
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FelOnyx said:
(who is 100% opposed to actually using that power and isn't actually allied to us, unless we have a second I've forgotten about. Also the choice between mind control and death presents a legitimate ethical question)

But don't let me of all people get in the way of optimistic pacifism.
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You think a command like, 'Do not intentionally pick at people's weak points to enrage them in order to make you feel better about yourself' is a legitimate ethical conundrum comparable to executing her under your pink boot?
 
Guile said:
You think a command like, 'Do not intentionally pick at people's weak points to enrage them in order to make you feel better about yourself' is a legitimate ethical conundrum comparable to executing her under your pink boot?
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Yeah, it is. They are both hack jobs.

The urge that is making her do it will still be there, and will find new ways to express itself, no less ugly than the old ones. Shinobu's solution got nicknamed 'magical lobotomy' for a reason.
 
Guile said:
You think a command like, 'Do not intentionally pick at people's weak points to enrage them in order to make you feel better about yourself' is a legitimate ethical conundrum comparable to executing her under your pink boot?
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Not really, but that's far from the "worst possible situations". But if some sufficiently twisted girl comes around that needs a full personality rewrite to become decent, things get questionable.

Honestly I'm beginning to think we've made Naoko into more of a boogyman than she has any right to be. She's a nasty piece of work, sure, but we could deal with her easily enough without murder or brainwashing. She'd just be troublesome and time-consuming so it's not a good idea at the moment.
 
FelOnyx said:
Not really, but that's far from the "worst possible situations". But if some sufficiently twisted girl comes around that needs a full personality rewrite to become decent, things get questionable.

Honestly I'm beginning to think we've made Naoko into more of a boogyman than she has any right to be. She's a nasty piece of work, sure, but we could deal with her easily enough without murder or brainwashing. She'd just be troublesome and time-consuming so it's not a good idea at the moment.
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Naoko also represents how we're going to deal with girls like or worse than her in the future. So... we probably have, yeah, but not without reason.
 
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Ch. 3: Light the Path Whenever It's Dark (41)
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    • After School - Tuesday, January 18th, 2011​

    "Yes, very ominous," Koharu says. "And?"

    Konno looks annoyed. "Do you expect me to simply enumerate my team's internal issues to you?"

    You clear your throat. Konno pauses, surprise flickers across her face for an instant, then her expression abruptly goes very blank as she turns to you. "I get it," you say, then hold up your hands to ward off objections. "Not, like, super-personally-in-my-bones-actual-life-experience get it, or all the particular details, but... I mean, I'm sure you know better than I do how unique your situation kinda really isn't?"

    Konno chuckles. "Every dysfunctional team is dysfunctional in its own way," she says--which you are pretty sure is maybe a quote of some sort?--"but yes, granted."

    "You want me to help your team, I want to help your team, the sky is blue, blah blah," you say. "Like, that part isn't even a thing we need to negotiate about."

    Konno visibly bites back on an immediate response as her gaze flicks upward at... the gray, overcast sky. Oh, ha ha.

    "But all this Tokyo nonsense with the, y'know, secret plotting and political backstabbing and murder-oriented problem-solving is something I won't be made complicit in," you say as firmly as possible. "I won't hold your past against you if you want a way out of that environment, but I don't need or want anything like that done on my behalf."

    "Honoka won't negotiate with outsiders," Konno objects.

    "You can convince her to accept a deal, but not discuss making one?" Koharu says, arching an eyebrow.

    Konno's glances over to Koharu for a moment, then quickly back to you. "Could I get her to sit down and 'discuss' it? Yes," Konno says, her body language tense. "I might even be able to convince her to do so without bringing Ikue along. What I can't do is make Honoka set aside her preconceptions of how such a negotiation would go and actually participate in good faith."

    "That still doesn't mean I'm comfortable going behind her back," you insist.

    "Very well. Would you be willi--" Konno pauses, eyes narrowing slightly. "--oh. So that's how it is," she says a moment later, her shoulders slumping. "Plausible deniability isn't enough," she mutters. "You'd know if I went behind your back? No. Maybe? Ah, reputation. Need people to see you as a legitimate, actual alternative, but... right, of course she's the issue... " Konno continues mumbling under her breath.

    I can actually see how much magic she's using right now, you comment offhandedly to your allies.

    Dangerous amounts? Maiko asks.

    Ah? No, not at all, you say. Enough to be visible, though.

    Should we say something? Koharu asks.

    Might as well let her finish, Maiko says.

    Konno spends another few seconds muttering, then sighs. "Right," she says. "No deal, I guess."

    "You weren't even trying to be subtle," Koharu says mildly.

    "I started considering some underhanded tactics," Konno admits after a brief hesitation, "and my magic flagged itself as a possible weak point, which could mean you'd have called me out on it. Checked more specifically and deduced that you knew how broad it actually is."

    You tap your chin thoughtfully. "So... you considered telling us your magic was more limited and it was all 'beep boop yes the weak point of that plan is: that plan'. Or something like that?"

    Konno winces. "Please understand I entertain many hypotheticals I have no intent to follow through on as a means of information gathering," she says. For a moment it looks like she's going to say something else, but instead remains silent, her gaze flicking back and forth between you and Koharu. She does look a bit nervous, though. You kinda wonder why she didn't pick up on that sooner--like, from the beginning of the conversation sooner--but set the matter aside for now.

    "Is us knowing about your magic going to be a problem?" Koharu asks warily.

    "Not for you," she mutters.

    "Right, so!" you say, hands on your hips. "This conversation is now officially no longer awkward, because."

    "Because...?" Koharu asks.

    "Yes, exactly," you say. "Because. Moving on! In the interest of, heh, entertaining hypotheticals..." you grin hopefully at Konno, who looks a bit confused but seems to have regained her composure. "Yes, it's obvious we don't currently have the numbers to secure Nagamioka properly, but--"

    "But you actually have the theoretical capability, yes," Konno interrupts. "Most likely, some combination of clairvoyance, precognition, stealth, or esoteric effects, with no clear and overriding weakness." She pauses. "Furthermore, what weaknesses I can identify you probably already know of, at least in general terms."

    "...I was gonna say 'overwhelming firepower and a variety of ways to stay well-informed', but thanks!" you say. "Also? Kinda impressed here, given what your magic actually does."

    I think she's intentionally being open about her magic to build trust and good will, Koharu says. Maiko makes a noise of agreement, but you don't really have the chance to respond without seeming suspicious.

    "So, yeah, my position isn't ideal right now this very moment, but overall? Koharu's summary might've been 'uncharitable', but she kiiiinda has a point," you say. "Having a gr--wait, I don't even need to explain this to you, do I."

    "No, you don't," Konno sighs. "Slightly undermining your authority in the short term, damaging your reputation and the perception of Nagamioka as a single unit long term. I could easily claim that interpretation was intentional, a red herring to make a mutually beneficial offer more palatable to Ikue and Tamazaki, but you'd have no reason to believe that."

    "Hunh," you say. "Actually, that's kinda clever. Makes sense, too."

    Konno and Koharu both give you an incredulous look.

    "I mean, don't get me wrong," you say, "the doubt would totally still be there and it would look bad to others no matter what and it's not something I can agree to. But... clever. Why'd you start with that offer, then, if you knew the actual situation?"

    "Misjudged your priorities," she admits. "My magic is limited by my own knowledge in ways that, no offense, I'd rather not explain in detail if you don't already know." She cocks her head, then shrugs when you don't respond. "You are, to be blunt, significantly more ambitious and calculating than I assumed. ...also, apparently, not offended by being told this?"

    I think she just called you a daddy's girl, Koharu remarks, and you barely manage not to laugh.

    Father would be proud, yes, you reply.

    "The question now," Konno says, "is where do we go from here?"

    "Shouldn't we be asking you?" Koharu says.

    Konno spreads her hands. "Would you trust any suggestion I made?"

    "You've been trying pretty hard to salvage things and make a positive impression," Koharu says. "That probably means you still expect to get something out of this. Either now, or in the future."

    "That's fair. I know you have a source of information regarding our group," Konno says, "but what do you know about our current situation?"

    Oshigiri's jealousy is probably the critical concern, Maiko says, and you say as much to Konno.

    "That's... a major factor, yes," she says. "But more generally, the internal conflicts are not sustainable." She begins counting issues off on her fingers. "Tamazaki and Ikue will eventually come to blows and when they do, it will likely involve lethal force. Honoka's generosity is the only thing keeping Miyu from self-destructing or turning on everyone else and Ikue is constantly trying to keep them apart. Chizuka's magic is always active and thanks to Ikue and Tsurumi she feels guilty any time she's not using it productively. Honoka is stretching herself too thin and losing Ikue, Chizuka, or Miyu might break her." Konno pauses. "And frankly, I'm not willing to stand back and hope that whoever breaks first doesn't kill us all in the process."

    You shift uncomfortably, but don't have an immediate response.

    "If nothing changes, best-case scenario is one or two deaths and the rest fleeing before hostile neighbors finish them off," Konno continues. "...worst-case scenario, Chizuka does a kamikaze run on said neighbors and probably makes the national news." Considering Chizuka's attitude toward collateral damage when she's mostly stable, you're pretty sure you don't need, or want, to ask for details.

    "Purely out of curiosity," Koharu says slowly, "if we had agreed to your initial proposal, what would you have considered the ideal long-term outcome?"

    Konno winces again. "Ikue provoked into killing Tamazaki, then pushed out into Kazamino along with Honoka where they'd probably survive. Myself retrieving the others, or ideally already having shifted them to here. Making a permanent claim here, affiliated with your group or otherwise." She pauses. "Maybe letting Honoka and Ikue take Tsurumi, if it was more convenient." She seems hesitant, and you strongly suspect there's more she considered saying, but eventually she decides to leave it at that.

    You kinda get the idea, anyway.

    "If you think you have some way to improve things for everyone, I'm listening. If I think it'll work, I'll even get Honoka on board." Konno pauses. "By which I mean, yes, essentially manipulating her into thinking the whole plan is her own idea, because that kind of thing is what I do to keep my team functioning. Otherwise..." she trails off, then shrugs.

    The silence hangs heavily in the air.

    Yui, Maiko says gently. It's not your responsibility to fix everything.


    [] Insist on talking with Honoka Furuhata. Tell Konno to push whatever buttons needed to make Furuhata initiate the meeting, then hope you can manage to convince her to actually communicate.
    [] Propose a plan.
    - [] ...you don't like it, but you're willing to play dumb. If Konno can split the group like in her ideal scenario, you'll pretend this meeting never happened and welcome them as 'refugees' under reasonable terms.
    -- [] But only if she can do it without arranging Akina Tamazaki's death. Or, y'know, anyone else's.
    -- [] Offer to turn a blind eye to Konno and/or others residing in Nagamioka beforehand, as long as Konno can convincingly make it seem like you don't know about it
    - [] You like it even less, but... Konno's magic can tell her how to break friendships, right? Have her drive a wedge between Chizuka and Miyu and the rest of the team and make sure those two get pushed into Nagamioka as refugees. The rest of the group is strong enough, and you'll... you'll make it up to those two. Somehow.
    - [] If you're going to be dishonest about this, don't settle for half measures, make a grand production of it. Get Konno to provoke the entire group into attacking you, flatten them like you did Kaede, then recruit any who'll let you and ship the others off to Kazamino.
    -- [] Focus on provoking Ikue Oshigiri. You'll lose the chance to recruit her and Furuhata, but that was unlikely to begin with.
    -- [] Focus on provoking Akina Tamazaki. You're not sure you'd be able to accept her anyway, and she sounds least likely to take it all personally.
    [] You... you can't fix this. Not right now. You're sorry.
    - [] In the end, it's really none of your business anyway. Tell Konno that you're accepting refugees for the foreseeable future and to pass that along to others who might need help, especially Miyu.
    - [] Tell Konno to stay in touch. If things change, on your end or hers, maybe something can be done.
    -- [] Offer to purchase her services, under the table, with the stipulation that she make sure nobody in the group goes without Grief Seeds.
    [] (write-in?)

    While Konno is here:
    [] Ask her some questions
    - [] About her group (write in specific questions)
    - [] About their enemies (in general, or write in specific questions)
    - [] About her shady back-alley dealings, and how she knew Koharu's name
    - [] (write in what to ask about)
    [] Ask her to use her magic
    - [] Offer a Grief Seed as payment
    - [] Let her set a price, within reason
    - [] (write in questions to ask)
    [] (write-in?)

    Once things are wrapped up with Konno:
    [] Swing by Rio, Fuuka, and Kiyomi's house to hand off the Grief Seeds you owe them.
    - [] Let them know you're on your way.
    - [] Show up unannounced. Hey, Rio said to stop by any time today, right?
    [] Check in with Chou. (write in anything in particular to say to her)
    [] Hang out with friends for a bit:
    - [] Minami was pretty shaken by the fight with Chizuka last night, she might appreciate company.
    - [] Asami is probably doing Asami things. Pester her and offer to help if she's still doing student council stuff.
    - [] Maiko needs some down time. Make her slack off and don't take no for an answer.
    [] You still have new magical girls to track down, get back to that.
    - [] Finish looking into the unknown, possible magical girls
    - [] Track down the calligraphy girl from last night
    [] Go hunt some Witches (write in who to invite with; Maiko is automatic)
    [] (write-in?)


    suffering, n.
    1. The state or experience of one that suffers
    2. Being meguca

    p.s. 'sup peeps
     
  • Threadmarks
    • Guile said:
    ... I'll be back tomorrow, once I reread and remember what the heck is going on.
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    The tiny and adorable protagonist was attacked by a magical girl from Tokyo and went out of her way to be nice and offer aid because the girl seemed to be in a bad place. In a completely unexpected turn of events, this made everything more complicated. :V

    tl;dr being meguca is suffering
     
    Oh, neat, this lives. I just finished reading it a week ago and had resigned myself to it being dead.

    Nice to see you back!

    EDIT: This is as good an excuse as any to reread, lol
     
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    You're baaaaack! *thunderous applause*

    ...this always seems to happen when I decide to reread the quest. I ought to reread it more often. :V

    Echo said:
    "Very well. Would you be willi--" Konno pauses, eyes narrowing slightly. "--oh. So that's how it is," she says a moment later, her shoulders slumping. "Plausible deniability isn't enough," she mutters. "You'd know if I went behind your back? No. Maybe? Ah, reputation. Need people to see you as a legitimate, actual alternative, but... right, of course she's the issue... " Konno continues mumbling under her breath.
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    Hah! Shades of Tattletale here.

    Regarding what we ought to do... I'm not sure, to be honest. I don't want Yui to start the path into backstabbing, but I also don't want her to just give up (it's entirely possible that making a habit of that would cause her to lose her wish magic, which would be a swift route to a Bad End). But I also don't know how to fix this whole mess and I'm not sure I want to commit to a meeting if we don't have an actual plan. Nor am I certain our well-informed friend here would go for it; she's perceptive enough to figure it out if we don't have a solid idea of how to make this work. My best idea is some form of loose alliance that involves Chizuka being temporally transferred to Nagamioka, but that sounds quite implausible from what I recall of the situation. So my plan is to sleep on it, read the rest of this tomorrow, and hope that either I or someone else has the beginnings of a plan by the time I'm done.
     
    Oh my god I just started rereading this two hours ago and I noticed your last activity was extremely recent, but I told myself not to get excited.

    I'm so happy to see you posting again!
     
    Somebody liked a post from this thread like a week ago, or less maybe idk. It reminded me that this existed and also that it's esteemed author was mia, spartan style. I was filled with great joy and great sorrow at once.

    You just killed the sorrow and multiplied the joy. Hell yeah my dude. Nothing kills sorrow better than a Yui cuddlebeam of death.
     
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