Puella Magi Imperatrix Mundi, or: Wherein Half Of Japan Tries To Kill You

[Nervos Belli]

Okay here's the thing. Yui said it best back at the bridge battle. What goes on in Nagamioka is our concern. Chou is to the best of our knowledge, just holding a piece of the city to sustain the means of being able to live her life and perhaps grow a garden on the side. That's fine. We have no problems with that. If she was attacking any magical girls for trespassing, we'd have to investigate that. Because either one or more of our girls is acting out of line, there's an invasion happening or there was a sudden influx of newbies appearing in Chou's territory, and we'd need to negotiate how this is handled in the future because we'd rather not have newbies attacked for being newbies.

In railguca's case, we were just ambushed with borderline lethal force. This is at least for now excusable in spite of it being Tokyo behavior simply because as a Tokyo magical girl, that's probably all she's ever known on top of a lack of alternative options or a real support network. That said, what goes on in our city is our concern. We would not want Railguca doing this to other newbie magical girls or any of ours that just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. So, if railguca is at least amenable to having a discussion, we can offer her a support network in exchange for her making changes to her 'rules of engagement' so to speak.

But if railguca insists on continuing on this line of behavior and attacking any magical girl she comes across, then no that's not acceptable. We'd need to take action.

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Yeah, I like this line of reasoning a lot more than just up and declaring we're in charge. I agree the situation concerns us, and we need to take some action. I just felt that Darklight was being too heavy-handed about it.

For a Tokyoguca, two magical girls strolling into someone's territory without any attempt to be stealthy and then heading towards another girl is almost certainly a power grab or assasination attempt. I just think we need to keep that in mind when we try to reason with her. No one thinks they're acting irrationally or being the villain after all.

 

[LostDeviljho]

Question? Since when does @LostDeviljho quality for Red Team?

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Since I switched to a red Avatar.

 

[DarkLight140]

There's a difference between under our protection and our territory. To continue using the Chou example, if someone tried to attack her and take over her territory, I'd vote to help her drive them off. But that doesn't mean we can decide who gets to stay in her territory or how she hunts within it.

Your vote has us walking into someone's territory brazenly, then slapping down them trying to defend it and declaring we've conquered their territory. I can't really see a difference between that and the normal Tokyoguca land grabs.

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We contracted in order to protect Nagamioka. The borders of Nagamioka, and so far as I am aware the borders which Momoko kept to and which were therefore unclaimed at our time of contracting, therefore form the basis for our territorial claim; in order for us to accomplish our objective, we need to ensure that either someone who works for us or someone who we approve of is in charge of every part of it. At the time we met Chou, and Koharu for that matter, we had exactly one magical girl as backup and were functionally incapable of maintaining actual control of their areas, so going "you seem okay, I'll respect your claim" was a much easier way to accomplish our personal objective than claiming control was.

But as we've strengthened our position by gaining numbers and experience, we can afford to claim greater authority over those we delegate the task of being boots on the ground to. We can't tell Chou to host a guest and have her do it just because we said so- but we sure as hell could tell Rio to do so. Heck, we gave Rio and team a whole checklist of ways that they're expected to comport themselves; our standards for approving people have risen significantly. Their circumstances were slightly different as defectors from a hostile group instead of incoming squatters who we randomly encountered, but not that much different. We certainly didn't have hands-on control of the portion of Nagamioka that we gave to them to patrol- I'm not sure that we'd even walked through it since contracting- but it was still ours to give, because all of Nagamioka is ours to give. We made that claim and stand by it; every territorial claim within the city limits is subject to our approval.

That sounds arrogant and harsh, but it's a necessity because if we don't stand by that, then we end up in a situation where Hypothetical Familiar Farmer Girl has the right to set up shop somewhere in Nagamioka and we'd respect her claim. We cannot respect territorial claims that function on the level of "I moved in, so it's mine now" while still considering ourselves to be in charge of the city. Every single girl who wants to move into the city needs to meet us and get our "she seems okay" stamp, and for most of them in our current situation, we should be demanding a lot more than that because when properly organized and utilized more personnel are assets we can use to more effectively defend the city and our friends.

From our perspective, then, this is not walking into her territory and declaring that we've conquered it, but rather us responding to someone ambushing us in our territory. I don't particularly mind the extra-friendly approach- more flies with honey and all that- but we cannot forget that our velvet glove is only possible because there's an iron fist inside it.

Yes, I'm aware that from her perspective the situation is completely different, and that understanding and respecting that is part of the flies-with-honey approach to this. But this encounter needs to end with her accepting that her perspective was wrong, and our perspective is right, whether our methods of persuasion are sweet words or giant pink laser beams.

Here's a question. If there's someone who is in Nagamioka who isn't interested in cooperation, and resists any attempts at recruitment, are you going to drive them out or forcibly subjugate them? Because that's what this vote feels like to me.

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That depends what "isn't interested in cooperation" and "resists any attempts at recruitment" actually mean. Nagamioka is meant to be safe territory for all our girls, meaning that anyone who is affiliated with us needs free passage through all of it without worrying about being attacked and the ability to operate (hunt, oppose incursions, etc.) at any location in the city. If there is someone who wants to just live in our city while letting us do our thing and isn't going to make a fuss, I could live with that (though obviously an ongoing social campaign to recruit them is called for, because this can only be tolerated in limited numbers lest we get a city full of such girls). If they're going to attack our people for running around being magical, hunting witches, and fighting near where they live? Then they need to go.

 

[Balduran]

*this general idea*

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I was actually typing up something to this end, but DarkLight said it better. I liked the post, but I'm posting this to emphasize my agreement with it.

 

[Genial Precis]

And Soul Gems don't have planes of cleavage, so there's no issue with impacts from just the right direction splitting it in half, either.

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The most worrying property of corundum is not its strength but its toughness. Strength is a measure of peak force required to deform, toughness is a measure of how much work has to be done to deform. Brittle materials such as corundum can require high force to initiate a crack, but once the crack starts it doesn't resist further deformation. Biological structural materials such as bone are notoriously not quite as strong but much tougher than their manmade counterparts. Toughness is the relevant property in impact resistance--the energy of the impactor goes into deforming the target and the impactor, whatever the peak force required to do this.

I'm not sure how I feel about the word "surrender"; I would probably go with "stop fighting" or something similar. I mean, the vote will probably be interpreted that way regardless, but it's best to be careful.

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In fact, it's inconsistent to use "surrender" when the rest of the vote is more accurately securing a parley. I've changed the wording to reflect this.

[x] Tell Minami to...
-[x] ...do her stealth thing and do what she can assist--just be careful of getting in the crossfire.

[x] Fight defensively and attempt to secure a parley via brainmail
-[x] Fight...
--[x] You could really use a way to deflect attacks if you're going to keep Minami safe. Use shockwaves to parry attacks. Big shockwaves if she sends a bunch of little stuff, more focused ones if she manages to launch something heavy.
--[x] Use shockwaves to blast away the small projectiles she's forming.
--[x] Explode the dense columns; they're either lances heavy enough to maybe injure you or definitely injure Minami, or they're worse like a railgun or something.
-[x] Brainmail...
-[x] Play softball.
--[x] Ask her why she's attacking you. Clear up ~wacky sitcom misunderstandings~, if any.
---[x] If that isn't enough, tell her that you're incredibly strong and she has basically no way to win, but that's okay because you don't actually have to fight! If she's willing to stand down, you are.

[x] If railguca refuses to parley...
-[x] Explode the ground underfoot with a beam to disorient and intimidate, then reiterate your demand to stand down.
-[x] Call for a warning shot from Minami if possible.
-[x] Mercy is a power you could really use right now. Try to set a shockwave to stun.
--[x] If that fails, use shockwaves to try to injure her enough to induce her surrender, and demand her surrender via brainmail.
---[x] If that doesn't seem to be working, shoot a hand or foot.

 

[Nevill]

At the time we met Chou, and Koharu for that matter, we had exactly one magical girl as backup and were functionally incapable of maintaining actual control of their areas, so going "you seem okay, I'll respect your claim" was a much easier way to accomplish our personal objective than claiming control was.

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And I suppose your point is that it has changed now? So what do you propose we do should we meet someone like Chou now that we have enough power to claim control over their area?

Respecting the claimant's rights to the territory if they comply with the rules we set for the city, and then trying to sway them towards working with us more closely seems a much more productive way of doing things than strongarming them into submission 'or else'.

We have a lot of power, and I dislike rubbing it in people's faces without a good reason.

 

[Balduran]

We have a lot of power, and I dislike rubbing it in people's faces without a good reason.

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We know we have a lot of power, but people just arriving don't, not until we've build some sort of reputation, at least. I don't really think what's being proposed is "rubbing their faces in it," just establishing our power claim. I doubt many MG will be willing to go for getting rid of the feudal system (as we've proposed) without knowing there's some greater power at work holding it together.

 

[Nevill]

I don't really think what's being proposed is "rubbing their faces in it," just establishing our power claim.

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A reminder of what was being proposed at a time, which was what prompted my reaction in the first place.

-- [x] Inform her that we are Yui Aikawa and Nagamioka is ours in its entirety. As she declined to introduce herself, attempt to lay claim to this area, or even warn us off prior to attacking us, we're going to give her one opportunity to surrender and gain our forgiveness for this foolishness; if she keeps fighting we will be far less lenient to the tune of her needing to regrow limbs.

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That's 'kneel and beg forgiveness, or I will remove your limbs one by one'. Is that a suggestion of how we should establish ourselves now that we have power to back it up?

Because that's what I am hearing - we no longer need to play nice like we did before out of necessity.

I mean, there are good points there, sure - we can't allow just anybody to settle in our city and do whatever they please, this is not going to turn into another Tokyo. But they are buried under using raw power as the first resort to solve problems.

 

[DarkLight140]

And I suppose your point is that it has changed now? So what do you propose we do should we meet someone like Chou now that we have enough power to claim control over their area?

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Inform them that Nagamioka is claimed by us and our group, and they're invited to join up with our group of superfriends. We can work to ensure that they work with people that they can get along with and that their patrol arrangements are for territory they'd prefer. If they are particularly stubborn, inform them that they don't absolutely have to sign up, but that something roughly resembling the rules we set for Rio's group are the minimum requirements for city residency and we'll expect them to comport themselves appropriately. If they can't follow a basic set of behavior requirements that boil down to "be nice and keep in touch with me as the city's grand high overlord" then why would we approve their residency?

Respecting the claimant's rights to the territory if they comply with the rules we set for the city, and then trying to sway them towards working with us more closely seems a much more productive way of doing things than strongarming them into submission 'or else'.

We have a lot of power, and I dislike rubbing it in people's faces without a good reason.

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What is the difference, in your eyes, between "respecting the claimant's rights to the territory if they comply with the rules we set for the city" and "strongarming them into submission 'or else'"? From where I'm sitting the two look basically identical, because the case in which they do not comply with the rules we set for the city is "I no longer respect your right to territory", as enforced by "or else". Isn't it strongarming as long as our offer is functionally "do as I say or else" and they know it, which is exactly what you just proposed?

A reminder of what was being proposed at a time, which was what prompted my reaction in the first place.

That's 'kneel and beg forgiveness, or I will remove your limbs one by one'. Is that a suggestion of how we should establish ourselves now that we have power to back it up?

Because that's what I am hearing - we no longer need to play nice like we did before out of necessity.

I mean, there are good points there, sure - we can't allow just anybody to settle in our city and do whatever they please, this is not going to turn into another Tokyo. But they are buried under using raw power as the first resort to solve problems.

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Literally no one is currently voting for that, so I'm not sure why you'd be arguing against it. I just said that I don't mind a flies-with-honey approach to solving problems as long as we don't allow a friendly demeanor to turn into willingness to excessively compromise on our core objectives.

 

[Shaseyu]

I mean, there are good points there, sure - we can't allow just anybody to settle in our city and do whatever they please, this is not going to turn into another Tokyo. But they are buried under using raw power as the first resort to solve problems.

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Eh, this girl started negotiations by throwing 3-meters spear into us.
I think, "using raw power" is absolutely adequate response.

There is difference between "method that we use right now" and "method that we always use".

 

[Nevill]

What is the difference, in your eyes, between "respecting the claimant's rights to the territory if they comply with the rules we set for the city" and "strongarming them into submission 'or else'"?

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The difference is obeying the rules of basic decency vs. obeying Yui personally. Basic decency demands no killing or maiming people, and generally the set of rules you outlined in the first paragraph of the above post.

Obeying Yui involves a lot of other, not necessarily related things.

We can't tell Chou to host a guest and have her do it just because we said so- but we sure as hell could tell Rio to do so.

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Why is that? Why can't you tell Chou to do your bidding, and have to ask instead of demanding compliance with your wishes?

Literally no one is currently voting for that, so I'm not sure why you'd be arguing against it.

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Because that's the context in which I view the ideas you suggest. Their practical application, so to speak. I was wondering whether this is the approach you think we should take. That no one is voting for it does not affect the idea in the slightest.

 

[Guile]

"I'm here to kick ass and chew bubblegum steel..."

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"Uck, I swallowed a piece T_T"
"Are you okay?!"
"Yeah, but it's like swallowing bubblegum, it feels icky."
"Not to mention you'll probably want to stay transformed until you pass it..."
"Minami, magical girls don't poop, okay?!"

Because of the wish she made, Minami's stealth is primarily a mental effect. If Minami goes full stealth neither metalguca nor Yui will remember or care who that totally uninteresting bystander is and why she's on the roof.

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Well that sounds like a recipe for friendly fire in a fight like this.

 

[Balduran]

The difference is obeying the rules of basic decency vs. obeying Yui personally.

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What about when we find people who don't define "basic decency" the way we do? Having Yui-set standards gives them guidelines, and for the good people, it's just a new name for stuff they'd do anyway.

Why is that? Why can't you tell Chou to do your bidding, and have to ask instead of demanding compliance with your wishes?

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Precedent, really. Think of it as Chou being grandfathered in to the actual system, and ideally she'll come to trust us enough that having to ask her won't undermine our authority.

I apologize if I'm getting involved in someone else's argument, but I seem to share their views (to some extent, at least), so I just wanted to share my perspective.

 

[Guile]

The difference is obeying the rules of basic decency vs. obeying Yui personally. Basic decency demands no killing or maiming people, and generally the set of rules you outlined in the first paragraph of the above post.

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She just demolished a civil works project in order to try and kill us on sight. This means she's below the level of basic decency we prefer.

And frankly, 'railguca' is much more powerful (or at least intimidating) than Koharu and more immediately murderous than Chou, which necessitates a 'Stop trying to kill people you dickbag!' response instead of 'Hey, buddy, you okay?' like we did with them.

 

[DarkLight140]

The difference is obeying the rules of basic decency vs. obeying Yui personally. Basic decency demands no killing or maiming people, and generally the set of rules you outlined in the first paragraph of the above post.

Obeying Yui involves a lot of other, not necessarily related things.

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Magical girls can't be relied upon to abide by the rules of basic decency outside the context of someone enforcing them. That's the whole problem with Tokyo; too many girls who have found out too many times that "basic decency" is restricted to those who aren't desperate, bitter, or cynical, and adapt accordingly.

"Obey Yui personally" isn't something we're doing for kicks, it's a prerequisite to having people in our territory reliably act with morals which Yui approves of. If there is no top-down enforcement of strictures, including moral strictures, then no one will abide by them. Therefore, getting people to act morally can be done most easily and effectively by going right for "do what I say" and ensuring that "be nice" is consistently something that we say to do.

Top-down morality isn't an ideal situation, but it will work. Expecting people to be moral without having someone at the top with a gun making them be moral will not work.

Why is that? Why can't you tell Chou to do your bidding, and have to ask instead of demanding compliance with your wishes?

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I suppose we don't have to ask, but it would be a better idea. We gave her more independence than that already and people don't like it when you take away their freedom suddenly, in large amounts; it produces resentment. You have to gradually convince them to give it away to you a bit at a time if you want to avoid rebellious attitudes.

Which sounds bad, but most of the stuff that governments do- taxation, policing, maintenance of the public good, and so forth- is all enabled by a monopoly on force, and the willingness of the people underneath the government to partially yield their own rights to self-determination up to the government so that it can make decisions for them. We're building a very tiny nation here.

Because that's the context in which I view the ideas you suggest. Their practical application, so to speak. I was wondering whether this is the approach you think we should take. That no one is voting for it does not affect the idea in the slightest.

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I think that we should optimize our approach to our objective of creating a safe, peaceful Nagamioka to the best of our ability. The question of what path is optimal remains under debate but I'm currently leaning toward a very firm set of strategic objectives carried out by a soft approach on a tactical level, giving way to a hard approach when the soft approach fails to produce the required results.

 

[Nevill]

Well that sounds like a recipe for friendly fire in a fight like this.

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I thought Yui would also protect bystanders?

What about when we find people who don't define "basic decency" the way we do? Having Yui-set standards gives them guidelines, and for the good people, it's just a new name for stuff they'd do anyway.

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Depends. If not hurting people is above them, then they are the very thing we try to defend our city from, and they need to be dealt with. Of course, I tend to prefer methods that leave them intact but unable to hurt people further.

Precedent, really. Think of it as Chou being grandfathered in to the actual system, and ideally she'll come to trust us enough that having to ask her won't undermine our authority.

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Well, we can always alter the deal - we have the power to force our conditions now. But that undermines everything we worked on with her so far.

Which is kind of my point - if we meet Chou #2... we'll give her the exact same deal and leave her alone to try and win her over later. None of this 'you are in the presence of the city ruler, you shall do as I say' stuff. I don't think much has changed.

(and no, I don't lay claim to this argument, you are very much welcome to join )

She just demolished a civil works project in order to try and kill us on sight. This means she's below the level of basic decency we prefer.

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I wonder what Himari was doing in the Witch barrier. And later, Haruka.

Yes, magical girls (and half of Japan) will try to kill us for various reasons. It's okay, we can take it, it's what we wished for. This is why we don't have to freak out when faced with hostility, and should try clearing things up before resorting to killer beams and chopping heads off. We can afford it.

Edit:

The question of what path is optimal remains under debate but I'm currently leaning toward a very firm set of strategic objectives carried out by a soft approach on a tactical level, giving way to a hard approach when the soft approach fails to produce the required results.

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I have no objection to that. I guess I draw a different line when I decide that an approach has failed and it is time to unholster the big guns.

 

[Guile]

I wonder what Himari was doing in the Witch barrier. And later, Haruka.

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I'm gonna be honest here, I voted for a harder approach after she shot us in the back with a magic gun, same as I did after Kaede put two holes in Yui.

But people didn't seem to mind, then, for reasons I don't really understand. As I said then, there has to be a point where we stop being anime, and following attempted murder seems like a good time.

Yes, magical girls (and half of Japan) will try to kill us for various reasons. It's okay, we can take it, it's what we wished for. This is why we don't have to freak out when faced with hostility, and should try clearing things up before resorting to killer beams and chopping heads off. We can afford it.

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Can Minami? Can our other friends?

 

[Nevill]

Can Minami? Can our other friends?

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Not quite applicable here. Or in Himari's case. Or in Kaede's case. When their lives will be endangered, we'll make our choice. Until then, we operate under the rules we've imposed on ourselves when we made our wish.

Besides, I don't think Yui would have many - or at least the same - friends if she were more murder-happy.

 

[Briefvoice]

This is essentially an argument over political legitimacy. What gives Yui the right to tell other people what to do? Right now Yui's main sources of legitimacy are these:

1. Kyuubey says I should be boss.
2. Maiko backs me.
3. I'm powerful enough to beat you up if you don't do what I say.

Attempts to acquire legitimacy other than by force of arms are why religious blessing and democracy are so popular. I think that one of the major goals of the quest should be to acquire legitimacy for the organization that Yui is trying to build. At a certian point, maybe not today, but at a certain point this may involved a leadership election among the magical girls of the territory or something of the sort.

And when Asami wins that election, I hope Yui will back her to the best of her ability.

 

[Nervos Belli]

And when Kiyomi wins that election, I hope Yui will back her to the best of her ability.

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FTFY

 

[Guile]

And when [INSERT CURRENT WINNER OF STRAWPOLL HERE] wins that election, I hope Yui will back her to the best of her ability.

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FTFY.

 

[Balduran]

FTFY.

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When Yui wins the election and backs herself? Sounds about right! Just hope that pesky wand doesn't get any swing votes...

 

[Nevill]

Well, no one would be stupid enough to question Ramiel-chan's legitimacy, not with Yui backing her up to the best of her ability.

Hm, I have developed a new appreciation for democracy...

 

[Echo]

Well, no one would be stupid enough to question Ramiel-chan's legitimacy, not with Yui backing her up to the best of her ability.

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Isn't it more the other way around?

Arguably, the current "empress Yui rules the city" situation can be regarded as a tacit consensus among residents that, yes, the business end of Yui's wand is definitely in charge, no question about it. I'm sure that if everyone who knows Yui as a magical girl voted on the proposition "um, please don't shoot me" the votes would be unanimously in agreement (with three abstaining).

That's basically the same thing as democracy, right?

 

[Echo]

Okay, here's the current tally. Votes are not closed yet but I should have time to write soon so if you guys want to tinker with the vote a bit more now would be a good time.

Vote tally:
##### 3.21
[x] Fight...
-[x] Pump random surges of POWER into her magic so that she can't properly control her metal anymore. No need to try and take control yourself; just make it so she can't properly control it.
[x] While you fight, try talking to your opponent via brainmail.
-[x] Try to talk her down peacefully. Point out that she didn't overwhelm you in the initial assault if that was her plan, so she has nothing to lose by stopping a moment to talk now.
[x] Tell Minami to...
-[x] ...fall back and assist however she can from long range. ...you probably should have asked what kind of weapon she uses.
No. of votes: 3
Briefvoice, Metaflare, Aoinfinity

[x] Fight...
-[x] For interference, preventing her from attacking
--[x] Focus on the dense columns, whatever they are.
[X] You are being very uncool right now. Do I go to your house and blow up your construction sites? No!
[x] Tell Minami to...
-[x] ...do her stealth thing and do what she can assist--just be careful of getting in the crossfire.
-[x] Keep an eye to see if kimono girl is moving in response to the fight.
No. of votes: 1
Guile

[X] [a href="[URL]https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/members/darklight140.1330/[/URL]" class="internalLink"]DarkLight140[/a]
No. of votes: 1
magicdownunder

[x] Genial Precis
No. of votes: 7
Muramasa, ziizo, DarkLight140, Vebyast, Shaseyu, Noumero, Crimson Doom

[x] SystemicHatter
No. of votes: 5
UbeOne, veekie, Jrin, Nevill, Nervos Belli

[x] Tell Minami to...
-[x] ...do her stealth thing and do what she can assist--just be careful of getting in the crossfire.
[x] Fight defensively and attempt to secure a parley via brainmail
-[x] Fight...
--[x] You could really use a way to deflect attacks if you're going to keep Minami safe. Use shockwaves to parry attacks. Big shockwaves if she sends a bunch of little stuff, more focused ones if she manages to launch something heavy.
--[x] Use shockwaves to blast away the small projectiles she's forming.
--[x] Explode the dense columns; they're either lances heavy enough to maybe injure you or definitely injure Minami, or they're worse like a railgun or something.
-[x] Brainmail...
-[x] Play softball.
--[x] Ask her why she's attacking you. Clear up ~wacky sitcom misunderstandings~, if any.
---[x] If that isn't enough, tell her that you're incredibly strong and she has basically no way to win, but that's okay because you don't actually have to fight! If she's willing to stand down, you are.
[x] If railguca refuses to parley...
-[x] Explode the ground underfoot with a beam to disorient and intimidate, then reiterate your demand to stand down.
-[x] Call for a warning shot from Minami if possible.
-[x] Mercy is a power you could really use right now. Try to set a shockwave to stun.
--[x] If that fails, use shockwaves to try to injure her enough to induce her surrender, and demand her surrender via brainmail.
---[x] If that doesn't seem to be working, shoot a hand or foot.
No. of votes: 2
LostDeviljho, Genial Precis

[X] Brainmail the railguca.
-[X] Welcome her to Nagamioka. Inform her that you understand that she was worried about being kicked out, but you weren't here to do that.
-[X] However, she needs to stop now, or someone might get hurt for no good reason.
[X] If she throws the shrapnel at you, sweep it aside but don't retaliate.
-[X] Make sure it doesn't hit Minami.
[X] Keep an eye on those large piles, though, and destroy them if she doesn't stop attacking.
-[X] Ask Minami to go into stealth if you're forced to do that.
No. of votes: 1
SystemicHatter

[X] Plan Red Team
No. of votes: 2
redzonejoe, BunnyLord

[x] General Precis
No. of votes: 1
Elephant Parade