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Puella Magi Imperatrix Mundi, or: Wherein Half Of Japan Tries To Kill You

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veekie said:
I mean, wishes do follow intent, and Madoka's intent would be "everything mostly like it is, except less suffering"
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Yeah, which is why I'm not sure what would happen.

Creating cosmological recycling bins like Vebyast suggests seems most plausible to me, I guess. You'd want something that preserves conservation of energy, so not just an infinite energy source or the like.
 
Guile said:
Wishes come from the incubators. If they could wish away entropy, they presumably would.
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There's no evidence Incubators can make use of the wishes themselves. Given how magic is based off emotion and karmic potential, this makes sense. If the incubators could make wishes of their own, why would Kyuubey need to deduce that Homura was a time-traveller? He could have wished that he knew her secrets.

That said, it wouldn't surprise me if the Incubators had tried convincing a magical girl to wish away the death of the universe at some point. I figure they simply never had a candidate with enough potential to do so. Even Madoka, who was capable of rewriting reality, only change a relatively minor part in the grand scheme of things.
 
redzonejoe said:
Well, I mean, they're not reducing entropy because it's fun. Their goal is to 'reduce entropy and delay the heat death of the universe'.

Switch it up to a universe that doesn't expand infinitely, and that's that problem solved.
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If entropy continued to increase in a contracting universe--and I'm still not clear on why it wouldn't--that would prevent heat death only because the universe wouldn't last long enough to reach thermal equilibrium.

Though maybe the incubators would prefer destroying the universe to allowing entropy to increase, who knows.
 
SystemicHatter said:
By the time we actually hit Madokami, the Incubators have a ridiculous level of technology, which naturally has an effect on both survival and behaviour. Look at what the introduction of medicine does to, say, how you would react upon getting a cut. Pre-disinfectant and in poor hygiene conditions you've got a good chance of getting a nasty infection, so if you aren't careful about it, it could be very bad. Modern day? You clean it and disinfect it and basically forget about it. (If you're in a First World country, that is).

I'd agree that the stuff with the redundant bodies would encourage risk-taking behaviour, but I'm not convinced that's a product of evolution rather than technology. That kind of thing would be seriously costly resource-wise for minimal benefit.
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Evolution doesn't stop when technology is invented. It just alters evolution. For example, the invention of glasses means that the selective pressure towards good eyesight has been lessened, meaning that we are now evolving to have poorer eyesight as the selective pressure optimising other goals is enhanced relative to the pressure optimising better eyesight.

Whether or not the Incabators evolved or invented their multipe bodies (Word of God implies that it was not invented but natural) is irrelevant. The instant a species gains that ability, it will immediately begin evolving to lose all risk aversion at an incredibly rapid rate. There are only two possible ways to prevent this:

A: Eugenics programs designed specifically to keep risk aversion in the gene pool

B: Genetically engineering themselves to be more risk averse

Neither of which they have any reason to do, as it provides absolutely no benefit to them at all, bar OCPs, which, being OCPs, they have no reason to expect.

The3rdCorinthian said:
I've always just gone with the interpretation that Incubators are not especially innovative. I mean, the meguca system has been in place for thousands of years at the very least, and in that time it doesn't look like they've been racing to find a more ethical outcome.

So it's less 'Incubators are smart!' and more 'Incubators are unknowable to mere mortals'
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Rebellion proves this isn't true. A mere rumour they didn't even believe had them racing to develop a way to successfully contain a force they knew practically nothing about and succeeded in under two years.

That level of innovation is utterly ridiculous and humanity has never done anything remotely comparable. The closest was deciding to land on the moon at the start of the space race, which is pathetic in comparison, as we can see the moon and it took several times longer, even ignoring the whole manipulation of fundamental forces thing.
 
Sereg said:
That level of innovation is utterly ridiculous and humanity has never done anything remotely comparable. The closest was deciding to land on the moon at the start of the space race, which is pathetic in comparison, as we can see the moon and it took several times longer, even ignoring the whole manipulation of fundamental forces thing.
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...This I will absolutely concede (Shock horror, someone admitting they're wrong on the internet :p)

I will say then, given that this is the case, my disgust of incubators just hit an all time fucking record. It's not that they cant even be bothered, they literally couldn't care less about finding ways other than the witch system...

SOMEONE LAUNCH A NUKE AT RIGHT ANGLES TO THE MULTIVERSE AND RETROACTIVELY NUKE THE SONS OF BITCHES BEFORE HOMURA MAKES HER WISH.
 
SystemicHatter said:
Given that this is somewhat off-topic and has made it to 3 exchanges, want to take this to PM? With an open invitation to anyone else who wants to join the discussion.
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I might be game? Im not really too much one for metaphysics, as at the end of the day i'm just of the opinion that everyones views are equally as valid since we never really get full explanations.
 
SystemicHatter said:
Given that this is somewhat off-topic and has made it to 3 exchanges, want to take this to PM? With an open invitation to anyone else who wants to join the discussion.
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FWIW, I don't really mind discussions that aren't directly on-topic so long as they're interesting, at least indirectly relevant (e.g., PMMM-verse analysis), don't continue spanning multiple updates, and don't dominate the thread when it's time to vote.

Speaking of which, I'll be closing votes officially in an hour or two. The bandwagon seems to be settled, anyway.
 
veekie said:
But wish magic can transcend logic, if you truly wish for something to happen.
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Logic logic? Nope, that'd be literally incoherent and meaningless. A bit like wishing for "jkhblkgfd#'[345qmt,lbinvsm98234ntr".

You can certainly wish for things that would be completely impossible in any sensible universe of course. Like having it as a fundamental rule that trying to count something will give you a different result every time you try. :D
 
The3rdCorinthian said:
...This I will absolutely concede (Shock horror, someone admitting they're wrong on the internet :p)

I will say then, given that this is the case, my disgust of incubators just hit an all time fucking record. It's not that they cant even be bothered, they literally couldn't care less about finding ways other than the witch system...

SOMEONE LAUNCH A NUKE AT RIGHT ANGLES TO THE MULTIVERSE AND RETROACTIVELY NUKE THE SONS OF BITCHES BEFORE HOMURA MAKES HER WISH.
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Or, y'know, maybe there aren't any better ways than the witch system. Sure, there could be other ways, but unless they're better there's no reason to use them, and I legitimately have never seen a suggested alternative to the witch system that was better in the ways that matter to the Incubators.
 
LostDeviljho said:
Or, y'know, maybe there aren't any better ways than the witch system. Sure, there could be other ways, but unless they're better there's no reason to use them, and I legitimately have never seen a suggested alternative to the witch system that was better in the ways that matter to the Incubators.
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It's less this, and moreso the fact that we never see the Incubators trying to find a better way.

I mean, sure, if we'd been told 'This is the most efficient and Ethical way we can think of, there's nothing we can do, we tried everything else', I'd lean more this way, but I just constantly get the feeling that they're not even trying.

Because in my mind, Magic is Bullshit, of course there's got to be a better way out there. But what do I know? According to QB, I'm mad! Mad I say!
 
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SystemicHatter said:
Given that this is somewhat off-topic and has made it to 3 exchanges, want to take this to PM? With an open invitation to anyone else who wants to join the discussion.
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I'd be happy to, but if Echo is happy to keep it here ... I'll eave it up to you.

LostDeviljho said:
Or, y'know, maybe there aren't any better ways than the witch system. Sure, there could be other ways, but unless they're better there's no reason to use them, and I legitimately have never seen a suggested alternative to the witch system that was better in the ways that matter to the Incubators.
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Absolutely. The problem is that the Incubators and I could not disagree on what is "better" more than we currently do.

EDIT:^The example provided by Rebellion implies they are trying. The just do not care about our ethics at all and they are thus irrelevant to the Incubators' optimisation experiments. Personally, I believe that the current system is meticulously researhed and the best possible system (from the Incubator perspective, because they do not care about whether members of other species have to suffer or not at all and would have no problem at all with torturing every non-incubator in the Universe to death if it would provide them with even the most minor of benefit)
 
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Okay, gonna close votes now. Got some stuff to do tonight so update may be a while, possibly not even until tomorrow.

Vote tally:
##### 3.21
[X] Approach Kaede and the dog slowly, Kaede's gem visibly in hand.
-[X] Good doggy, loyal doggy, looking after Kaede. But she needs my help to wake up now, so let me help her okay?
--[X] Wake Kaede up, ignore the dog as best you can if it tries to interfere.
[X] After she wakes up, take Kaede's gem back for security reasons. As long as she stays nearby it'll be fine.
[X] Kaede, listen, I didn't really mean to knock you out right there. But I've had some time to think about it, and I think putting you back to... Uh... 'sleep' is a good idea for now.
-[X] I can take care of your body, so when I wake you up next, it'll be like no time has passed for you. It's pretty much the closest thing to magical girl jail we have right now. But... I'm not sure what to do about your dog. And maybe you or Naoko have family that need to be contacted, or...
--[X] Flail around a bit to indicate your current predicament.
---[X] Look, help me out here so this whole thing can be as easy as possible. Mainly for your dog. But also for you.
[X] Take Yumi, Naoko, Kaede and probably Kaede's dog over to Maiko's meeting place.
-[X] Telepathy with Maiko to discuss the situation. Specifically, discussing Kaede and her dog's future. Either disconnect Kaede before we arrive, Or delay arrival to continue the conversation about Kaede's future.
No. of votes: 1
redzonejoe

[x] SystemicHatter
No. of votes: 2
UbeOne, Vebyast

[X] Muramasa
No. of votes: 1
Nolrai

[x] Do not wake up Kaede.
[x] Try being friendly to the dog and see if you can convince it you mean no harm.
-[x] Ask Yumi if she has any dog treats in her mysterious skirt inventory.
[x] Ask for help getting Kaede, Naoko, and the dog to the location Maiko has in mind.
-[x] Ask for Yumi's help.
--[x] Have Yumi stick around and introduce her to Maiko there.
No. of votes: 10
Muramasa, Always Late, MobiusC, Redshirt Army, The3rdCorinthian, Unitveras, BunnyLord, Crimson Doom, SystemicHatter, veekie

[X] Kaede goes over one shoulder, Naoko over the other. Aaaaand... march!
-[X] You don't actually want to get savaged by Kaede's dog, but it's also very unlikely to actually hurt you, so. Let it come along, ignore it if it bites you?
No. of votes: 1
Guile

[x] Get distracted.
-[x] Pet the dog.
No. of votes: 2
Hyp3rB14d3, RexHeller
 
Echo said:
[x] Get distracted.
-[x] Pet the dog.
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So, this vote has put the idea in my head of Yui trying to pet the dog, and it biting her, to absolutely no effect, and then her lifting it up as it's biting her simply by raising her arm with it clinging to her hand with its teeth, and then petting it with her free hand. While it's in the air, still gnawing on her.

Because dog teeth aren't likely to bother Yui much.
 
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Sereg said:
Absolutely. The problem is that the Incubators and I could not disagree on what is "better" more than we currently do.

EDIT:^The example provided by Rebellion implies they are trying. The just do not care about our ethics at all and they are thus irrelevant to the Incubators' optimisation experiments. Personally, I believe that the current system is meticulously researhed and the best possible system (from the Incubator perspective, because they do not care about whether members of other species have to suffer or not at all and would have no problem at all with torturing every non-incubator in the Universe to death if it would provide them with even the most minor of benefit)
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QB: What does it matter if a few individuals of some other species suffer for the good of the whole universe? It is logical for such individuals to resist this outcome, but illogical for all others to oppose it, particularly given the immediate gains to their species in general.
 
veekie said:
QB: What does it matter if a few individuals of some other species suffer for the good of the whole universe? It is logical for such individuals to resist this outcome, but illogical for all others to oppose it, particularly given the immediate gains to their species in general.
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Well, I thought it was the other way around (The suffering part not the logic/illogic part).
 
The Incubators don't actually care what percentage of the Universe suffers, as long as it benefits them personally.

(Also, personally, I value fairness much more than happiness. I consider a world where everyone is unhappy better than one where only one person is)
 
Sereg said:
The Incubators don't actually care what percentage of the Universe suffers, as long as it benefits them personally.
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We can't actually say this definitively. All we know is that we, and at least one other species, fall into the percentage the Incubators find acceptable. We don't know what that percentage is, so we have no basis on which to say they don't care about the percentage at all.
 
LostDeviljho said:
We can't actually say this definitively. All we know is that we, and at least one other species, fall into the percentage the Incubators find acceptable. We don't know what that percentage is, so we have no basis on which to say they don't care about the percentage at all.
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Cost/benefit. A statistically negligible number of girls suffering attrition while improving society and all as a side effect of the energy harvest.

It'd be species wise a pretty sweet deal if Homura didn't break the system and produce a world ender that produces more energy than the entire planet would, ever.
 
veekie said:
Cost/benefit. A statistically negligible number of girls suffering attrition while improving society and all as a side effect of the energy harvest.

It'd be species wise a pretty sweet deal if Homura didn't break the system and produce a world ender that produces more energy than the entire planet would, ever.
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I'm aware. Maybe I'm tired, but I don't get what that has to do with my post?
 
Sereg said:
I'd be happy to, but if Echo is happy to keep it here ... I'll eave it up to you.
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Blargh. I was going to create a conversation, since this seems like an interesting topic, but I really don't have the energy at the moment. I might bring it up sometime again when I'm less sleep-deprived.
 
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