Pet Peeves in Fanfiction

[Harry Leferts]

Slash as a whole is another example of how something can be complicated.

First, it's often be done in a way that's rather misogynistic (they make a canon female love interest an irredeemable bitch in order to justify the males getting together). Secondly, they often assume that two guys showing affection MUST be gay for each other. It's not like male friendships aren't a thing (I have seen WAY too many Stucky fans assume that Steve Rogers MUST be gay for Bucky and that there can be no other POSSIBLE explanation for it) and if anything the assumption that two guys showing affection for each other must be gay is itself rather homophobic. Finally they often only do it with the two guys who happen to be hot. I've personally encountered at least one gay couple comprised of two guys in their 50s-60s, and they absolutely cared for each other. Hell I'd be THRILLED to see more MxM pairings where the parties aren't just handsome bishonen men.

I've also seen slash pairings between characters who are brothers (Dean and Sam Winchester, Harry Dresden and Thomas Raith) or between characters with large age gaps (Ed Elric and Roy Mustang is one such pairing I've encountered, which considering that Ed is 15-16 throughout the story is kinda gross).

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Oh God, this, so much fucking this. I don't mind seeing characters being gay or trans, as long as it is done well and not because "It's sooo fucking hot". For example, people going about how Daniel Radcliffe is hot, and Alan Rickman was hot, and thus, having the two make out as HP and Snape would be fucking hot, with nothing else. Another example was the Azur Lane one where they made the Kansen... well, transgender. Not because it made no sense considering the series (because it really didn't), but because you could tell that the author was doing it as a fetish by referring to them as "Girly-boys" and having them still refer to one another as males, despite being almost completely female (outside of, um, well... having a dick still). I wanted to reach through and just punch the author.

 

[VolantRedX]

Do you expect stories about cis people to explore what having a gender identity that matches your assigned one means? Do you expect a story with a male protagonist to explore the nature and character of manhood? Or do you just accept them as protagonists who just are those things and move on?

The idea that a minority character must exist to explore the identity involved or else be "virtue signalling" is the opposite of good representation. Trans people are just people. Trans characters are just characters.

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Except pretty much any identity is going to affect characters in different ways. If you have a gay male character in ancient Greece that's going to create a vastly different person than a gay male character in 13th century Italy. The way they see themselves, and the way society reacts to them is going to mean something. If you have a trans character whose trans identity in no way affects who they are as a person then your not really writing a story with a trans character. Especially in the realm of fanfiction where you're often changing characters in order to create that story. Why have a story where Harry Potter is trans if you're not going to explore that?

Gender identity, sexual orientation, race, these things all have massive impacts on who we are and how we interact with the world, and crucially, how the world interacts with us. Changing any one of these things has massive impacts on how a character would exist in the world, and if you're not planning on exploring these changes why include them?

 

[LordYam]

Wait, is that really why Coil is black in Worm? Not that it matters much to the actual story either way, since Taylor never actually sees him out of costume so it never really comes up in canon, but if that's the reason he's black that's honestly pretty hilarious.

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Yep. Whatever one thinks of the guy that was an awesome take that.

 

[Althaea]

Pet peeve: metaphorical limbo competitions by people with poor pattern recognition.

 

[Spartakrod]

Except pretty much any identity is going to affect characters in different ways. If you have a gay male character in ancient Greece that's going to create a vastly different person than a gay male character in 13th century Italy. The way they see themselves, and the way society reacts to them is going to mean something. If you have a trans character whose trans identity in no way affects who they are as a person then your not really writing a story with a trans character. Especially in the realm of fanfiction where you're often changing characters in order to create that story. Why have a story where Harry Potter is trans if you're not going to explore that?

Gender identity, sexual orientation, race, these things all have massive impacts on who we are and how we interact with the world, and crucially, how the world interacts with us. Changing any one of these things has massive impacts on how a character would exist in the world, and if you're not planning on exploring these changes why include them?

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White, Christian or Christian Adjacent, Ablebodied, Neurotypical Cishet Male human characters born and raised in the Anglophonic world to a comfortable income and class background are free from any obligation to have any facet of their identity play any significant role in their characterisation or ever have to address such things as character arcs. They are free to have stories be entirely about them as individuals or their individual relations without ever once having to "explore" their whiteness, their heterosexuality, their cis maleness, their anglophonic linguistic heritage, their neurotypicality, their able bodiedness, their cultural and religious background, or their class character. Instead they can devote the entirety of their screen and page time to personal character arcs and narratives. They get to "just" be the privileged facet of society without ever questioning or exploring any of it.

That is all part of their privilege. They never have to be explored, justified, or examined except as individuals. They never have to "represent" their actually rather small in-group. Because their existence on these group identities is never challenged or questioned in our world so they're allowed to just be John Doe the American white boy who owns his own business and has two young kids with his smoking hot wife.

And even in more fantastical settings, people who fit those checkboxes of "the default" are also allowed to never be expected to do a representation narrative or any sort of examination of their race, class, ethnicity, gender, sexuality, ability, culture, or mental illness.

And this sort of person is, in English speaking literature, the single most common sort of protagonist.

So I reject the premise that we have to "explore" ourselves and our differences from the "norm" rather than being allowed to just vibe with narratives that don't have to tie into the daily struggle.

 

[Athene]

I'm gonna make all the canon characters Muslim just to piss people off.

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I mean, technically...

 

[PhoenixMercurous]

Another example was the Azur Lane one where they made the Kansen... well, transgender. Not because it made no sense considering the series (because it really didn't), but because you could tell that the author was doing it as a fetish by referring to them as "Girly-boys" and having them still refer to one another as males, despite being almost completely female (outside of, um, well... having a dick still). I wanted to reach through and just punch the author.

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Now that you mention Azur Lane and trans characters, I realize the various anthropomorphized warships settings actually come with an opportunity for a trans character in Bismarck. I've heard the IRL warship was referred to with male pronouns by all his sailors, despite the typical convention of using female pronouns for ships. The various games ignore that in favor of turning the ship into another big-breasted waifu. Making him a trans-man makes sense given IRL history and those settings premises.

 

[VolantRedX]

White, Christian or Christian Adjacent, Ablebodied, Neurotypical Cishet Male human characters born and raised in the Anglophonic world to a comfortable income and class background are free from any obligation to have any facet of their identity play any significant role in their characterisation or ever have to address such things as character arcs. They are free to have stories be entirely about them as individuals or their individual relations without ever once having to "explore" their whiteness, their heterosexuality, their cis maleness, their anglophonic linguistic heritage, their neurotypicality, their able bodiedness, their cultural and religious background, or their class character. Instead they can devote the entirety of their screen and page time to personal character arcs and narratives. They get to "just" be the privileged facet of society without ever questioning or exploring any of it.

That is all part of their privilege. They never have to be explored, justified, or examined except as individuals. They never have to "represent" their actually rather small in-group. Because their existence on these group identities is never challenged or questioned in our world so they're allowed to just be John Doe the American white boy who owns his own business and has two young kids with his smoking hot wife.

And even in more fantastical settings, people who fit those checkboxes of "the default" are also allowed to never be expected to do a representation narrative or any sort of examination of their race, class, ethnicity, gender, sexuality, ability, culture, or mental illness.

And this sort of person is, in English speaking literature, the single most common sort of protagonist.

So I reject the premise that we have to "explore" ourselves and our differences from the "norm" rather than being allowed to just vibe with narratives that don't have to tie into the daily struggle.

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I'm not saying that all non-white cis males must have their entire arc devoted to their differences, but it should affect them. In the same way, being a white male affects a character. A black man in modern America is going to have a vastly different perspective on life and the world around him than a white man. A story that fails to recognize that fact is basically denying the existence of privilege, not tearing it down. A gay character is going to be affected by the way the world treats gay people. That lack of privilege is exactly my point. No, you don't need to make that the whole arc, but to deny it entirely is to say that anyone who thinks gay people are treated differently is lying.

If you have a story where Harry Potter is an afab trans man that is going to affect him. It's going to alter how the world treats him, how he treats the world, and it's going to impact him as a person. And that can't just be ignored in favor of saying no aspect of his life or arc would change because that's impossible. Of course, it shouldn't be his only character trait and his arc should be about more than just that. However, in the end, we are the sum of our experiences. Change those experiences and you change us.

 

[LordYam]

White, Christian or Christian Adjacent, Ablebodied, Neurotypical Cishet Male human characters born and raised in the Anglophonic world to a comfortable income and class background are free from any obligation to have any facet of their identity play any significant role in their characterisation or ever have to address such things as character arcs. They are free to have stories be entirely about them as individuals or their individual relations without ever once having to "explore" their whiteness, their heterosexuality, their cis maleness, their anglophonic linguistic heritage, their neurotypicality, their able bodiedness, their cultural and religious background, or their class character. Instead they can devote the entirety of their screen and page time to personal character arcs and narratives. They get to "just" be the privileged facet of society without ever questioning or exploring any of it.

That is all part of their privilege. They never have to be explored, justified, or examined except as individuals. They never have to "represent" their actually rather small in-group. Because their existence on these group identities is never challenged or questioned in our world so they're allowed to just be John Doe the American white boy who owns his own business and has two young kids with his smoking hot wife.

And even in more fantastical settings, people who fit those checkboxes of "the default" are also allowed to never be expected to do a representation narrative or any sort of examination of their race, class, ethnicity, gender, sexuality, ability, culture, or mental illness.

And this sort of person is, in English speaking literature, the single most common sort of protagonist.

So I reject the premise that we have to "explore" ourselves and our differences from the "norm" rather than being allowed to just vibe with narratives that don't have to tie into the daily struggle.

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Yeah Western Society is biased towards White Christian Able-bodied Neurotypical Cishet Male and has jammed it into our heads that they're the norm. It's not fair but that's society. Hopefully it'll reach the point where other groups are portrayed as the normal (though even then LGBTQ are a minority of the population and most of the human race IS in fact biologically straight).

People of different ethnicities and sexualities DO have different experiences so at times it feels like that's being ignored in a way that ironically comes off as somewhat offensive.

It also doesn't change that some changes to sexuality have been done for stupid reasons (i.e. because the writer wanted the two hot guys to be a couple simply because they were HOT, or because they think that men showing affection MUST be gay for each other).

 

[Susano]

Except pretty much any identity is going to affect characters in different ways. If you have a gay male character in ancient Greece that's going to create a vastly different person than a gay male character in 13th century Italy. The way they see themselves, and the way society reacts to them is going to mean something. If you have a trans character whose trans identity in no way affects who they are as a person then your not really writing a story with a trans character. Especially in the realm of fanfiction where you're often changing characters in order to create that story.

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Okay, so far I agree with that take. It is, at least to me, a general good rule of writing that if you change a facet of canon, you have to show the follow-up changes. You can't just change a massive thing, like identity is, and then have everything magically still be the same. That is just... writing advice at that point, pretty separate from concerns about bigotry or representation. So, yeah, that much makes sense to me. However...

Why have a story where Harry Potter is trans if you're not going to explore that?

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Yeah, that's kinda the problem. It's like... you can turn the sentence around. "Why have a story where Harry Potter is cis if you're not going to explore that?". Why can't a character simply be trans, or female, or black or whatever? Okay, yes, if that is a change from canon then it follows that other things from canon will be different as well, but there is no real need to make a focus on that. You can do that, but it would be silly to somehow make that a demand.

Oh God, this, so much fucking this. I don't mind seeing characters being gay or trans, as long as it is done well and not because "It's sooo fucking hot". For example, people going about how Daniel Radcliffe is hot, and Alan Rickman was hot, and thus, having the two make out as HP and Snape would be fucking hot, with nothing else. Another example was the Azur Lane one where they made the Kansen... well, transgender. Not because it made no sense considering the series (because it really didn't), but because you could tell that the author was doing it as a fetish by referring to them as "Girly-boys" and having them still refer to one another as males, despite being almost completely female (outside of, um, well... having a dick still). I wanted to reach through and just punch the author.

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Well, maybe so. But, like... so what? Do you know how many kink fics there are on Ao3 alone? Lewd fics are pretty much a valid form of fanfiction, a valid reason to write fanfiction. And like, nobody bats an eye when a straight guy has two lesbians in the story for the hotness. But when it's m/m written by women, you get all the typical complaints about "fujoshi" etc. It seems a bit of a double standard to me.

But most of all... Basically, speaking once again entirely separate from any discussion on bigotry and representation, what you are doing is just... sorta... kinkshaming. Like okay, maybe a story written out of thirst for trans characters won't get you much in the way of representation brownie points, but, well - do they have to? Why can't you simply let thirst fics be thirst fics and leave them be? Erotica is an entirely valid genre of writing, at the end of the day.

I guess that is my conclusion for both quotes, really. Just let them be, if a story isn't for you click the next one. I never really believed in "don't like don't read" as a protection from criticism, but if you disagree with the core conceit of the story already, then, uh, yeah. Then "Don't like don't read" becomes entirely valid.

 

[Chlof]

Now that you mention Azur Lane and trans characters, I realize the various anthropomorphized warships settings actually come with an opportunity for a trans character in Bismarck. I've heard the IRL warship was referred to with male pronouns by all his sailors, despite the typical convention of using female pronouns for ships. The various games ignore that in favor of turning the ship into another big-breasted waifu. Making him a trans-man makes sense given IRL history and those settings premises.

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Please do not make the nazi boat trans.

 

[Hiver]

Oh God, this, so much fucking this. I don't mind seeing characters being gay or trans, as long as it is done well and not because "It's sooo fucking hot". For example, people going about how Daniel Radcliffe is hot, and Alan Rickman was hot, and thus, having the two make out as HP and Snape would be fucking hot, with nothing else. Another example was the Azur Lane one where they made the Kansen... well, transgender. Not because it made no sense considering the series (because it really didn't), but because you could tell that the author was doing it as a fetish by referring to them as "Girly-boys" and having them still refer to one another as males, despite being almost completely female (outside of, um, well... having a dick still). I wanted to reach through and just punch the author.

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Surprise slash!

200k words in without even a single hint and then bam!

 

[Harry Leferts]

Now that you mention Azur Lane and trans characters, I realize the various anthropomorphized warships settings actually come with an opportunity for a trans character in Bismarck. I've heard the IRL warship was referred to with male pronouns by all his sailors, despite the typical convention of using female pronouns for ships. The various games ignore that in favor of turning the ship into another big-breasted waifu. Making him a trans-man makes sense given IRL history and those settings premises.

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Please do not make the nazi boat trans.

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Er... I will note that is utterly wrong. The only one who referred to the Battleship Bismarck as a male despite every other ship on the navy was referred to as female was her Captain. And that was because he declared that any ship as powerful as his had to be a male and referred to as such,

 

[Magery]

i am too tired to say it prettily so i'll just say it simply
My last Staff post was not an invitation to start the same discussion except about orientation instead. The thread policy is quite clear about that. Go talk about something else that isn't this.

As a personal aside: I hold a Bachelor's degree in writing, a Master's in teaching, I am currently employed as an English teacher, and I do not have an issue with anyone who wants to write queer or non-cisgender representation in their stories just because they want to see more of it.

 

[Kuriboh]

In addition I WOULD like to see at least one fanfic where Harry Potter is trans if only to piss off Rowling the TERF (Seriously, someone SHOULD do that.

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Here you go
The author specifically states that giving J.K. the finger was part of the inspiration to this fix. Its at 184 chapters, 500,000+ words and still updating consistently. One of the better HP fics I've read this year too.

Random peeve of mine right now is massive review responses at end of chapters. I can understand doing one or two if they are insightful reviews. Or if they are in response to multiple reviews about something that may need clarification, like understanding how a magic system works in story.

it just really irks me when I get a update telling me the new chapter of a story is 5000 words, but 2000 of them is review responses. Most just saying thanks, or yup I liked that too. It's gotten to be an annoying issue for me over on FF.

 

[Enmascarado]

The author specifically states that giving J.K. the finger was part of the inspiration to this fix. Its at 184 chapters, 500,000+ words and still updating consistently. One of the better HP fics I've read this year too.

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"What motivates you to write so much?"

"Pure absolute spite!"

But seriously though, that's impressive.

 

[Spartakrod]

Now that you mention Azur Lane and trans characters, I realize the various anthropomorphized warships settings actually come with an opportunity for a trans character in Bismarck. I've heard the IRL warship was referred to with male pronouns by all his sailors, despite the typical convention of using female pronouns for ships. The various games ignore that in favor of turning the ship into another big-breasted waifu. Making him a trans-man makes sense given IRL history and those settings premises.

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Not only was this something only the ship's captain did out of sheer misogyny, given that the Bismarck was a warship of the Nazi Kriegsmarine and also given that it sucked ass and all of its main guns were broken within fifteen minutes of its second and final battle's gun duel portion and had crap AA guns foiled by the one weird trick of flying low I'd be mortified at making the Bismarck trans-representation.

Especially when the Soviet Navy offers a better opportunity since warships in the Russian language are grammatically masculine, which can be seen when they are given a name that is grammatically an adjective or a verbal participle. Adjectives and participles in the Russian language may have any gender, and in the case of ship names, they are always masculine, even if the type of the ship is designated by a feminine noun. Using an example I was provided elsewhere: корвет «Стерегущий»; канонерская лодка «Отважный» (not «Отважная»).

Yet despite this, Russian/Soviet warships are still referred to as female in most other European languages.

 

[Susano]

Here you go
The author specifically states that giving J.K. the finger was part of the inspiration to this fix. Its at 184 chapters, 500,000+ words and still updating consistently. One of the better HP fics I've read this year too.

Random peeve of mine right now is massive review responses at end of chapters. I can understand doing one or two if they are insightful reviews. Or if they are in response to multiple reviews about something that may need clarification, like understanding how a magic system works in story.

it just really irks me when I get a update telling me the new chapter of a story is 5000 words, but 2000 of them is review responses. Most just saying thanks, or yup I liked that too. It's gotten to be an annoying issue for me over on FF.

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I mean, ffn even has a *button* that lets you answer to a review in a PM. Click that button, and it takes you automatically to the PM form for that person, for a PM already labeled "Your review for <xyz>". So why even answer in public at all?

It can sometimes make sense, I suppose, when you get a dozen or more reviews that all make the same wrong assumption or miss the same damn obvious point. Then a quick note at the start of the next chapter can be warranted. But 90% of the time, it really won't.

 

[H341ZP1Z]

Ah yes, the old "ignore the Mod warning' skit. Well, good luck with that?

Pet Peeve: Those moments in the fic that you just know could be cut out and nothing of worth would be lost, and it goes on for several chapters or maybe even an entire plot arc. Boy, oh boy, I can not stand that.

 

[TremendousMilk3]

Two staff posts? What did I miss?!

Anyways, another pet peeve of mine is as follows:

People being stupid to progress a plotline. Like "Golly-O-Gee! I sure want to go into an abandoned castle in the middle of nowhere despite that, in lore, I would be smart enough to NOT do that!"

Pain.

 

[TheLurker]

Pet Peeve: Those moments in the fic that you just know could be cut out and nothing of worth would be lost, and it goes on for several chapters or maybe even an entire plot arc. Boy, oh boy, I can not stand that.

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I know it's something of a divisive topic on SV but man that gave me Taylor Varga flashbacks. i loved the ever loving hell out that fic for a long while, and the writing really did keep me engaged.

But holy shit man there's only so long I can read multiple 10K word updates where the plot advances by centimeters.

 

[Susano]

Yet despite this, Russian/Soviet warships are still referred to as female in most other European languages.

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Well that's just part of translation. Grammatical genders change when you translate words ("la tour" in French (feminine), "der Turm" in German (masculine) for "the tower"), as do all grammatical gender-related noun forms.

 

[FortePlus]

multiple 10K word updates

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Yo I gotta wonder about this, like I'm physically incapable of having that much text in front of me at once and either stop cold at 7-8k or write two entirely separate updates of 5k each. My brain won't let me go further. I'm not slamming it just to be clear (because someone will inevitably assume I am) but want to know how people do it as writers.

As far as reading goes, between 4-6k seems good imo, reading 10,000 words brings on some fatigue even if the stuff is really good.

 

[Naron]

Yo I gotta wonder about this, like I'm physically incapable of having that much text in front of me at once and either stop cold at 7-8k or write two entirely separate updates of 5k each. My brain won't let me go further. I'm not slamming it just to be clear (because someone will inevitably assume I am) but want to know how people do it as writers.

As far as reading goes, between 4-6k seems good imo, reading 10,000 words brings on some fatigue even if the stuff is really good.

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I can deal with 10k+ chapters, but prefer the 4k-6k range as well. It's mainly a difference between having twenty minutes to read a chapter, or needing to make a serious time investment.

Writing-wise, yeah, my chapters range from 2k (short, emotional moments that the following scenes would disrupt) to the usual 3k-5k. Sometimes up to about 7k, but those are rare.

 

[Maximum Power]

I don't like characters being treated poorly solely due to the author disliking them. Bashing is obviously bad, but I'm talking about the somewhat more subtle things about the way a character is written, such as describing their words and actions in a negative manner every time they appear while trying to maintain a semblance of false depth. If I read someone like Armsmaster, Tokiomi Tohsaka or Ozpin speaking typical in-character lines and all we're getting from the POV character is "Hmph, what an arrogant/ignorant jackass." it makes me feel like the author doesn't care about them beyond distaste. Like they don't intend to do anything with them other than at best leave them in the background or at worst set them up as an antagonist. And that can still work just fine plenty of the time, most people don't want or need to put effort into every presence in their story, but it seems to happen so often to many of the same characters and I think that's a shame.

At least there's a bright side. Whenever I do find someone who has well-written characters in their story, it makes me appreciate their work all the more.