Finagle007
[Verified Great Old One]
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Then how did he still have Nejibana released in sunlight? It should have reverted or outright disintegrated with his disguise.
Now You Feel Like Number None [Bleach Arrancar Quest]
- Thread starter Omicron
- Start date
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Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Then how did he still have Nejibana released in sunlight? It should have reverted or outright disintegrated with his disguise.
Revlid
blob of bugs
- Location
- England
[X] You agree.
Make no mistake - right now we're the most precarious, conventional target Luppi has available. Szayel is an unpredictable factor who'd need to be hauled out of his lab, Aaroniero's just weird and an ambush predator to boot, Zommari's not a much softer target than Grimmjow and has a much nastier Resurreccion. Cirucci's grown in power, yes, but the basics of her abilities are known, she holds the position Luppi wants, and for all that Aizen set out an edict against infighting... a) he worded it in a deliberately vague manner, b) see how much he gave a shit when Grimmjow got his arm back and blasted his way back to #6? Cirucci is probably not his favourite person right now, even if he doesn't really care that Yammy got killed. She trained, big whoop, that's not interesting to him.
Cirucci is a far juicier target for Luppi than #9-7. The only thing in the way is an edict that Aizen clearly doesn't care too much about (Tousen will tho), combined with his own impatience to get started filling dead men's shoes. We need to take advantage of that, because Cirucci has an information advantage - namely, a somewhat inconspicuous and thoroughly unthreatening spy well-versed in escapes, who's already ferreted out the secret weakness of one wonky specialist Espada.
The Winter War starts soon. And Cirucci knows it. There are going to be gaps opening up in the Espada sooner rather than later, and whether or not we actually have to carve them open ourselves, it'll be good to have a non-hostile relationship with Luppi when those gaps open up. We are alone on the Espada right now, and while his extended hand may well be covered in jellyfish stingers, it's also the only one outstretched to us. At least, the only one Cirucci would accept.
Most pressingly... Cirucci's never going to be satisfied with #10. She was never going to be. She knows she deserves better (and we know it too). So why deny the impulse?
Make no mistake - right now we're the most precarious, conventional target Luppi has available. Szayel is an unpredictable factor who'd need to be hauled out of his lab, Aaroniero's just weird and an ambush predator to boot, Zommari's not a much softer target than Grimmjow and has a much nastier Resurreccion. Cirucci's grown in power, yes, but the basics of her abilities are known, she holds the position Luppi wants, and for all that Aizen set out an edict against infighting... a) he worded it in a deliberately vague manner, b) see how much he gave a shit when Grimmjow got his arm back and blasted his way back to #6? Cirucci is probably not his favourite person right now, even if he doesn't really care that Yammy got killed. She trained, big whoop, that's not interesting to him.
Cirucci is a far juicier target for Luppi than #9-7. The only thing in the way is an edict that Aizen clearly doesn't care too much about (Tousen will tho), combined with his own impatience to get started filling dead men's shoes. We need to take advantage of that, because Cirucci has an information advantage - namely, a somewhat inconspicuous and thoroughly unthreatening spy well-versed in escapes, who's already ferreted out the secret weakness of one wonky specialist Espada.
The Winter War starts soon. And Cirucci knows it. There are going to be gaps opening up in the Espada sooner rather than later, and whether or not we actually have to carve them open ourselves, it'll be good to have a non-hostile relationship with Luppi when those gaps open up. We are alone on the Espada right now, and while his extended hand may well be covered in jellyfish stingers, it's also the only one outstretched to us. At least, the only one Cirucci would accept.
Most pressingly... Cirucci's never going to be satisfied with #10. She was never going to be. She knows she deserves better (and we know it too). So why deny the impulse?
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Revlid
blob of bugs
- Location
- England
He never uses Nejibana in the sunlight.
Finagle007
[Verified Great Old One]
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
No, but it was still active.
Revlid
blob of bugs
- Location
- England
I mean, I don't know how many ways you can take the dude saying "I can't use my powers in sunlight" while not using his powers in sunlight, but...
Source?
Except the Third just offered an Alliance to us. Well her Fraccion did, but the Fraccion are supposed to be the voice of the Espada, right? So it might as well have come directly from the Third.
- Location
- Australia
[x] You disagree.
As mercenary as it is, Cirucci should just wait for the shinigami to kill off people ahead of us and take their spots that way.
(Of course, it seems more likely that they'd kill her first, but I believe in the Nemo who believes in Cirucci!)
As mercenary as it is, Cirucci should just wait for the shinigami to kill off people ahead of us and take their spots that way.
(Of course, it seems more likely that they'd kill her first, but I believe in the Nemo who believes in Cirucci!)
Revlid
blob of bugs
- Location
- England
She offered no such thing. She offered protection. That's very different.
Luppi offers an alliance. That means Cirucci and he work together as nominal equals toward a shared goal, fostering at least an appearance of respect and reliability.
Harribel offered protection. That means Cirucci cowers behind her skirts. It means her ambition ends where Harribel's patience does. It means she's killed her way onto the Espada only to admit she can't really handle it and immediately accept vassalage beneath a more powerful force. She shouldn't have to accept that. We would, in a heartbeat, but this isn't about us, it's about her - and she's better than us, isn't she?
Revlid
blob of bugs
- Location
- England
Just to clarify for everyone before I head off to sleep:
This is ambition/prudence, unless @Omicron wants to correct me. It's the question of whether we support Cirucci's unquenched drive to climb further up the ladder, to a perch where she can roost in greater satisfaction and safety, or whether we advise Cirucci to take a page from our book and heed the apparent spirit of Aizen's words, keep her head down and her nose clean at #10.
Cirucci is not stupid. This is not "trust Luppi/don't trust Luppi". She already doesn't trust him.
This is ambition/prudence, unless @Omicron wants to correct me. It's the question of whether we support Cirucci's unquenched drive to climb further up the ladder, to a perch where she can roost in greater satisfaction and safety, or whether we advise Cirucci to take a page from our book and heed the apparent spirit of Aizen's words, keep her head down and her nose clean at #10.
chocolote12
A Penguin Flailing Against The Keyboard Of Life.
Uh, can't people climb just by being stronger? Or was it only Yammy with the fancy mood tattoos?
Ylamona
Konlulu~
People can fall by getting weaker, so maybe? Directly or indirectly by getting stronger Cirruru could get a higher seat later. So I think this is whether we want to support Cirruru no matter what or become a counterbalance to her.
[X] You disagree.
This is one of time I think Should we is better than Could we. Best ambition is one with understanding one own limit.
ChildishChimera
A umbran summon
- Location
- New York
No Aizen with his infinite time literally made every tattoo measure the reishi levels of each espada and compare it to the others if she gets stronger it will change.
- Location
- Australia
They should. This is something of @Omicron's worldbuilding that I don't understand.
In canon, the Esapada are nominal equals and ranked solely by raw spiritual power. (So a lower number is not necessarily a better fighter than a high number, they just have a higher spiritual pressure.) This is a smart thing Aizen did. Under this system, Coyote's number does not mean he has de jure authority or privileges over Barragan and neither does it necessarily mean he could beat him in a fight. If you change it so that it means either, you would see Barragan challenging Coyote, then Aizen either loses the God of Time or the guy with even more spiritual power than him.
If Cirucci were to climb the ranks, Cirucci would not gain any more de jure authority of the Espada, her de facto authority would remain the same (de facto authority stems from power and having the number would not increase her power), and she would get no additional privileges.
It makes sense for Numeros to be able to challenge Espadas but not for Espadas to challenge other Espadas. If a Numero beats an Espada, Aizen loses an important subordinate and gains an even more important subordinate. This is a good thing for Aizen. If an Espada beats another Espada, he loses an important subordinate and he gains a less important subordinate in the form of a Numero filling in the spot. (If the Numero was stronger than the dead Espada, it would've just challenged that Espada.) This is a bad thing for Aizen.
When a Numero beats an Espada, the average combat power of the Esapadas grows. When an Espada beats an Espada, the average combat power of the Espadas weakens. It makes no sense as far as I can see for Aizen to not have banned Espadas from challenging other Espadas for a lower number, especially when there are no privileges or incentives for an Espada of a higher number to gain a lower number.
If there were still some arrancars who wanted a lower number for the sake of having a lower number, it should be that the only thing they have to do is train and get stronger. If they have to beat another Espada, they have to train and get stronger then kill an Espada.
An Espada getting stronger is good for Aizen. An Espada getting stronger coupled with an Espada dying is not as good for Aizen.
It makes no sense for Cirucci to want a lower number. There are no tangible benefits to doing so and the way to getting a lower number should just be to get stronger, not to pointlessly eliminate one of Aizen's prime servants and replace it with something weaker.
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Viva01
Uncomfortable with all the hugs he is given
- Location
- Australia
[X] You disagree.
-[X] Given Aizen's stated plans, you could expect attrition to happen soon. Best be focused on ensuring that she's not one of those, and being better positioned to take advantage of any weaknesses revealed during operations.
Not sure if Omicron will allow the subvote but I'll put it in as well. I like Veekie's take on it.
-[X] Given Aizen's stated plans, you could expect attrition to happen soon. Best be focused on ensuring that she's not one of those, and being better positioned to take advantage of any weaknesses revealed during operations.
Not sure if Omicron will allow the subvote but I'll put it in as well. I like Veekie's take on it.
Revlid
blob of bugs
- Location
- England
Article: Revlid: The Espada are ranked by spiritual power rather than combat ability, because there'd be no way to judge the latter without fatalities, and also because Aizen doesn't give a shit.
Revlid: Once you're on the Espada, your raw numbers are all that matter.
Revlid: If you're off the Espada, your raw numbers don't matter.
Revlid: ...actually
Revlid: Should Cirucci even be the Diez?
Omicron: And even with that basis Aizen doesn't bother shuffling the ranks in real time.
Omicron: Cirucci beat #10, so she's the new #10, even though her raw spiritual power is higher than Szayel's.
Omicron: As much as he doesn't give a shit Aizen understands that if he assessed a new Espada's spiritual ranking and demoted a bunch of people one rank to be accurate at least one of the fuckers would pick up a fight with the one who just took their number just to make a point.
Omicron: And punishing that would end up with even more dead Espada
Omicron: It's not worth the bother.
Omicron: "You beat 10, you're the new 10."
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Chronobreak
Chara Appreciator
- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] You agree.
Can we kill Aaaroniero? He's useless anyway.
Can we kill Aaaroniero? He's useless anyway.
- Location
- Australia
Even with how it currently is in Omicron's world there should be no reason for Cirucci to climb the ranks with Luppi's help. As the Diez she will be challenged by Numeros looking to take her place but logically speaking she should just suck it up and accept it. If she takes a lower number, she'll still be challenged, except instead of just being challenged by Numeros, she'll also be challenged by Espadas. If she gains her higher rank fair and square she'll be able to defeat those Espadas, but if she does so by cheating, she will not have the strength to win when she gets challenged by one of the higher numbered Espadas. She will lose and she will die.
She also seems to be missing the threat from above. If she kills another Espada and takes their number, the numbers above her will look at her with suspicion and hostility because she will in time come after them for their number. If would then make logical sense for one of those Espadas - Grimmjow or Nnoitora, especially - to preemptively kill her and nip that threat in the bud. This is another flaw in this system, by the way; it incentives Aizen's weapons to kill his other (less important, but still important) weapons pointlessly and for no gain on his part.
She also seems to be missing the threat from above. If she kills another Espada and takes their number, the numbers above her will look at her with suspicion and hostility because she will in time come after them for their number. If would then make logical sense for one of those Espadas - Grimmjow or Nnoitora, especially - to preemptively kill her and nip that threat in the bud. This is another flaw in this system, by the way; it incentives Aizen's weapons to kill his other (less important, but still important) weapons pointlessly and for no gain on his part.
This doesn't invalidate the point of my post. Either there shouldn't be a reason for Cirucci to want a lower number or there shouldn't be a reason for Aizen to create a system where there is a reason for Cirucci to want a lower number.
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- Location
- Should be a bit higher
Regardless of Cirrucci's ability to actually take on another Espada (remember the other Espada's now know it can happen so they are not going to be as blindsided as before), Luppi wins.
If Cirrucci knocks off another Espada her seat is open for him to take. If Cirrucci gets squished her seat is open for him to take. In fact it's probably more advantageous for Luppi if she did attempt and fail. Gets rid of the other party that can reveal his plotting.
It's not a matter whether Luppi will betray her it is a matter of how. All he has to do is not join in on the attack when they ambush the lucky Espada of choice. Cirrucci gets smacked by whoever. Hell he can even attack Cirrucci to "help" the other guy against Cirrucci's overly ambitious attempt to usurp more power. OR he takes the time to strike at Nemo...more loose ends and what not.
He has very good Reiatsu Contral as he JUST demonstrated. Treacherous ninja octopus is not too farfetched.
If Cirrucci knocks off another Espada her seat is open for him to take. If Cirrucci gets squished her seat is open for him to take. In fact it's probably more advantageous for Luppi if she did attempt and fail. Gets rid of the other party that can reveal his plotting.
It's not a matter whether Luppi will betray her it is a matter of how. All he has to do is not join in on the attack when they ambush the lucky Espada of choice. Cirrucci gets smacked by whoever. Hell he can even attack Cirrucci to "help" the other guy against Cirrucci's overly ambitious attempt to usurp more power. OR he takes the time to strike at Nemo...more loose ends and what not.
He has very good Reiatsu Contral as he JUST demonstrated. Treacherous ninja octopus is not too farfetched.
