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Now You Feel Like Number None [Bleach Arrancar Quest]

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On Yammy, my thought on it is that...well Nemo made him this way. From start to end she was involved, in sapping his power, in taking him where Cirucci was ready to break him, in Szayel's lab building him into a whole new abomination against nature and finally Nemo's betrayal of Szayel's expectations and his removing the limiters.

Nevermind the practical concerns, the narrative says he's going to clash with Nemo. And at the same time, she wove much of him. She knows how he works in and out on a level that only one other person could surpass(and that person is dead).

She's going to strip him.

As for Cirucci's mental influence it seems mostly like a powerful Suggestion, unless you're weak enough for her to bowl you over on raw Reiatsu(which basically everyone could do anyway). She suggests a thing and you believe it.
 
veekie said:
On Yammy, my thought on it is that...well Nemo made him this way. From start to end she was involved, in sapping his power, in taking him where Cirucci was ready to break him, in Szayel's lab building him into a whole new abomination against nature and finally Nemo's betrayal of Szayel's expectations and his removing the limiters.

Nevermind the practical concerns, the narrative says he's going to clash with Nemo. And at the same time, she wove much of him. She knows how he works in and out on a level that only one other person could surpass(and that person is dead).

She's going to strip him.

As for Cirucci's mental influence it seems mostly like a powerful Suggestion, unless you're weak enough for her to bowl you over on raw Reiatsu(which basically everyone could do anyway). She suggests a thing and you believe it.
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Nemo's already got a shit ton to do. I doubt a confrontation with Yammy is a sure thing, because if Nemo has to face everything that she's been a part of she'll be involved in literally every part of the rebellion.
 
So, poorly organized thoughts on the current situation...

It's good that Jack was able to gather up the bulk of the numeros out of the way, because mecha-yammy was just given the order to kill everything. Everything includes random people just living their lives, so if that option had not been taken, this rampage would be a lot nastier. And it's already likely to be pretty nasty.

I'm wondering what the invaders plus friends are going to do. They're stealthed, which is all well and good if they can keep it up. And maybe they can. But this is one of those circumstances where you worry that running away just means you're tired when the enemy catches you. Maybe they can actually break contact with the Yammynator and leave him to find his own entertainment; Las Noches is big. But I'm not banking on it.

If they did get far enough away to not be the priority targets, I don't know what Yammynator does next. He's got pretty vague orders. Just picks a direction and starts killing his way across? Las Noches is big. Could be walking a long time. Finds the nearest bunch of people to squash? That's probably the Gatekeepers.

What would constitute a plan for the invaders? Most of their heavy hitters are badly injured and tired. Standing and fighting doesn't seem like a strong plan. Running for reinforcements seems like it could work, but what reinforcements are available? Either Grimmjow or Cirucci could plausibly deal with Mecha-Yammy; Aaroniero was able to crack its armor, and both of them are theoretically stronger. Cirucci, especially, could probably core him like an apple if she popped her release; no way is he tougher than Nnoitra's hierro was, and I doubt he has enough redundancy to survive that, but she can't afford any extra fights if she's going to go pick a fight with Ulquiorra. Grimmjow, likewise, has a fight he needs to be participating in, and unlike Cirucci probably doesn't have a nuke in his back pocket.

Ichimaru Gin could probably make the shot, since there's a flaw in the armor now, but he's Ichimaru Gin. Tousen and Haribel are both busy.

Some combination of Nemo, Ichigo, and the Tres Bestias is possible, but do they bring enough firepower to the table collectively? Maybe if the Besties could summon Ayon? Nemo could stay out of reach, as long as she doesn't release, but she's going to have a hard time scratching Yamzilla. Ichigo is fighting with a hand tied behind his back.

Starrk could do it, but how would he become involved?

Barragan is a very interesting possibility, because we have no idea what he's up to now, even though he's been mentioned as important, and because of Chichimaru/Findorr. On the one hand, Findorr has history with Barragan and the Royal Fraccion that might be helpful. On the other hand, he has a lot of reasons to not want to run into them at all. The Royals collectively could likely get the job done, or Barragan personally, but it's hard to see why he'd want to unless Yammy was actually in his parlor trying to kill him.

Or, maybe the answer isn't getting reinforcements, but finding favorable terrain for the fight. But, well, that had better be some hellacious terrain bonus, because walking mountain of rage and pain.

Or, maybe a thousand calaveras can do the job. Never underestimate Team Jackal.
 
Andres110 said:
Nemo's already got a shit ton to do. I doubt a confrontation with Yammy is a sure thing, because if Nemo has to face everything that she's been a part of she'll be involved in literally every part of the rebellion.
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I mean, Round 2 with Tesla is the only thing on Nemo's plate that I can think of that's more pressingly relevant to her personally than Mecha-Yammy is. What else would you put on that level?
 
I mean, I could see Yammy coming across Stark's place and forcing him to fight, or perhaps he'll attend the play going on as an excuse not to fight and end up forced to protect everyone. Would definitely be interesting to see the two with the most endurance go at it (Yammy tanking and constantly gaining more energy against Stark's simply ungodly massive energy reserves).

Also an excuse for omi to write an even longer fight scene :V
 
I'm pretty late to the party, but darn I feel bad for Sayazel now. Betrayal by the only person who you consider a friend stings no matter how much of a monster you are.

It certainly is the mark of a good writer to make people feel sorry for a guy like him. But also, you know, f--- just stop already! I've barely gotten over AAA's death! And I'm sure you'll make this even worse over the coming updates!
 
random_npc said:
she's kinda a terrible person yes. She has a deep assumption that of course she has authority over everyone she sees as below her, and only really cares about collateral damage to people she doesn't know because her girlfriend would be sad.
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It's worth noting that Cirucci isn't using Nemo as a morality chain. She's not Urahara; her thought process doesn't go "I don't understand why things are bad, but people I care about tell me it's bad, so I will not do them." She is perfectly capable of compassion, empathy and moral thinking, but is heavily biased towards people she cares about and towards projecting from their point of view.

The whole thing with Nemo being axiomatically opposed to collateral damage has a tendency to obscure the mechanisms of Cirucci's thinking, because it is a situation in which she thinks "well, I wouldn't necessarily mind, but it'd make Nemo sad, and that's bad," so let's take the example from a different angle.

If we remove Nemo from the picture of the Karakura Sacrifice Scheme, there's still Ichigo. He's someone Cirucci fought with twice, abducted to Hueco Mundo, and whom she finds interesting enough that she talked with him and sparred with him since he's been here. She finds him entertaining and sympathetic, even if she will never stop trash-talking him. He's sort of a very fierce but dim puppy.

If you told her "Aizen is going to murder Ichigo's home town" after these facts having been established and ignoring Nemo as a factor, she'd think that's bad, because that's where Ichigo's friends live. It's not the kind of cold computation Urahara does where it goes "friend would be sad, therefore action should be avoided." She'd legitimately think that it's a terrible thing to do, on an emotional level. Aizen wants to kill people who are cared about by somebody she (sort of) cares about, her second-order empathetic circle, so to speak. And that's wrong.

But if Aizen sighed and said "fine, then we'll blow up that random midwestern American town instead," she'd nod sagely and be satisfied, because who cares about these people? She'd still think that's bad, because murdering thousands of people is bad, but you know, fate of the world, omelette, eggs.

Or to take another example, if in a STUNNING UPSET WHAT A TWEEST the next update had Grimmjow appear in front of Cirucci with a Snidely Whiplash moustache painted on his face and gloating that "actually I was working for Aizen all along, sucks to be y'all," she would first be shocked and surprised, then she would be outraged at this betrayal of her, and then she would be even more outraged on Luppi's behalf, and she would likely attempt to avoid killing Grimmjow as much as possible in the inevitable fight that ensues, because he did something terrible to someone she (will never admit she) cares about, and he needs to be alive and conscious when she tosses his smoking body in front of her least-favorite Fraccion and tells him that it's up to him what he wants to see done with his treacherous lover.

I'm drawing in very broad lines here, of course. Cirucci's outlook on these isn't naive, she is cognizant that this isn't really a coherent ethical system and that it makes her selfish. She just considers herself exposed to such pressures that she can't afford to get philosophical about it and that she has to focus on the people she cares about ahead of all, and part of why she loves Nemo is that Nemo manages to be more deontological even under greater pressures than Cirucci's own. She finds that inspiring. A little uncomfortable sometimes - when you deal with someone who is more ethical than you it's hard not to feel like their actions are telling you that you're a bad person, even when it's not the intent - but she's a mature person who can deal with such feelings without letting them taint her relationship.

Or in other words:

Kaiya said:
Cirruci's big intermission with Syazel was called "Care Ethics" for a reason.
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Care ethics are probably what Cirucci would come up with as a coherent ethical system if she were given time to think without the constant stress of life-or-death stakes surrounding her as a rebel in a dimension-spanning war.

This is all further complicated by her aspirations to nobility. To take an example, Cirucci has very little emotional connection to Ren: he is a set of valuable knowledge packaged in a dull and unpleasing human envelope. She literally pressed him into service against his will, then later told him "you can go now if you want," and when he chose to stay she considered the matter resolved with no real wrong done on her part. She doesn't really care about him as a person. But if someone dropped by the Red Chamber while she is away and murdered Ren to get at her, she wouldn't just be upset that she lost a servant; she would feel like she has done wrong, that she has failed in her obligations as his mistress. She failed to assess the need for protection one of her servants had, and in doing so caused his death, and that is a terrible moral fault. One in which, in fact, she may be more culpable than whoever killed Ren, as they just opportunistically seized a chance to hurt her like any enemy would, whereas she actively failed in her duty.

Basically gestalt-ghosts learning humanity after centuries as cannibalistic beasts have confused moral codes. See also: Most Moral Fraccion, Nemo Elcorbuzier, whose entire ethical system is predicated upon having Deadpool-tier regeneration.
 
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I don't think Ren counts as a Fraccion. He doesn't have trust or responsibility. There are no circumstances in which Cirucci says, "Ren, I need a job done. Take care of it for me."

He's just a regular minion, much like the four calaveras who clean. He's a skilled minion, but he's not management.
 
Alert: Thread Policy
  • Staff Post
    • Lisafication said:
    Because you keep soapboxing about how mean we're being to you when tbh you're ascribing far more 'moralising' and 'outrage' to me telling you to calm down than was actually there. You also seem to tie together 'things that Lisafication personally finds kinda annoying' and 'the SV rules', which is very much not the case :V

    Also I don't put people on ignore. If you want me to not talk to you, stop yelling about how I'm bullying you.
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    Khepri14 said:
    ...I really could do entirely without the past 2 pages of you and the others acting like my opinion and one-off statement of Shawlong is and was disrupting the thread. Only you guys decided to make it bigger than it really was, so don't claim I'm soapboxing when you were the one who started soapboxing that I needed to "calm my tits". I then asked why you thought, in the post you quoted, you thought I needed to calm down and you decided to bring up my old text made at 6 AM and decided that I was still "hysterical" or "similarly enough" about it hours later. Had no one ever decided to bring up my statement, we wouldn't be here now since it wasn't anything but a statement made in the moment, not some page-filled rant on why Shawlong sucked or something actually worth reacting about and telling me to calm myself down.

    I don't know you or why you think that way(or any way you think really), but if I brought up an old one-off text of yours and claimed you were still hysterical/angry/whatever hours later even though you're not presently, I'm pretty sure you'd be annoyed about it too.

    I am, however, cognizantly aware of the fact that what you find annoying and what the SV rules don't intersect which was my point all along when I said to 'bring the mods in or leave me alone'. If what you find annoying doesn't intersect with the rules, then don't try making it seem bigger than it is.



    First off, that's a no-win statement right there. Either I accept everything you guys keep claiming about me and shut up which means accepting things that aren't true and letting things stand as is in thread or defend myself which is then seen as "demanding the last word" by you.

    Secondly, I'd love to know why and how I've been going on "angry rants" and "antagonizing people" while "trying to demand the last word", when I haven't been angry(Very annoyed, certainly I'll give you that), haven't antagonized anyone but perhaps those who decided it was a good idea to act like they were being superior and moral to calling me out over calling Shawlong a motherfucker and saying I should calm down hours later because I'm not willing to accept their accusations, and I'd have been perfectly content to leave things alone if said people didn't continue to cast aspersions on me.

    At the very least, I seriously don't get why you think I'm angry when I haven't been since I woke up this morning and initially (mis)read the update and yelled-text at Ilforte. I am definitely annoyed about how this has occurred and taken shape though. If you wanted me to stop my supposed "angry rants" then you could've accepted that I already admitted I was wrong, I acknowledged Omicron's word on the subject, and asked to be left alone twice already and left me alone. If you still want me to stop, then please stop replying to and casting aspersions on me and I'll be content to leave things alone.

    It was a one-off statement that really should never have been made bigger than it was.
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    thread policy Hello, everyone.

    It is understandable that tempers fly high in Quests where we are all deeply emotionally invested in what is going on. However, I would request that you check your tempers now and take a step back, take a deep breath, make yourself a cup of warm drink of your choice and only then return to posting.

    Because this sort of back-and-forth sniping does nothing but disrupt the thread, impair the ability of the rest of the readers to enjoy the story and adjacent discussion, and have a good time with Number None, and that's not cool.

    None of you will receive an infraction or warning at this time, but should this happen again this will certainly be the case.

    Be more considerate of each other, be excellent to each other, even when you have fundamental disagreements over the development of a story.

    Thank you for your attention, and have a good time.


    Varano said:
    Stop posting, seriously it has no end, this is the sort of situation that created the frase "don't feed the trolls" they'll keep going as long as they get atention, just don't respond no matter what they post, this is literally just words on a screen.
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    warning Rule Three of our forum is very simple. Respect the participation of others. Attack their argument, not them.

    Calling them trolls only in it for attention is not OK, and does absolutely nothing for the standard of discussion in the thread.

    You have received a Staff Notice and an attendant three-day threadban.
     
  • Staff Post
    • Omicron said:
    Or to take another example, if in a STUNNING UPSET WHAT A TWEEST the next update had Grimmjow appear in front of Cirucci with a Snidely Whiplash moustache painted on his face and gloating that "actually I was working for Aizen all along, sucks to be y'all," she would first be shocked and surprised, then she would be outraged at this betrayal of her, and then she would be even more outraged on Luppi's behalf, and she would likely attempt to avoid killing Grimmjow as much as possible in the inevitable fight that ensues, because he did something terrible to someone she (will never admit she) cares about, and he needs to be alive and conscious when she tosses his smoking body in front of her least-favorite Fraccion and tells him that it's up to him what he wants to see done with his treacherous lover.
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    Presumably somewhere in there would be some attempt to make sure Grimmjow actually is betraying Luppi, and that this isn't simply Part 1 of Luppi's sudden but inevitable betrayal.
     
    Uhh...Okay soo...
    Thinking about it, could Nemo take Yammy?...Hrrm.
    Sans scaro it basically boils down to how weak Yammy is at minimum power. His armor I think of as providing a higher level baseline to him, but he still gets stronger from eating and building his strength up, I think.
    But the other thing is Szayel described Yammy as basically being only good at stockpiling power-he's weak if he doesn't have his stockpile, and even on an equal footing is a lose for him, because if his thing is stockpiling power, but he's only got as much power as say, Nemo? He loses because Nemo has the power to match him and her own arsenal of abilities, his only ability is power-stacking. He can only fight via having more biggatons then the other guy.
    Nemo's not a GREAT fighter, mind. BUt she does by now have some serious biggatons behind her. And...Hrrm.
    I'm not sure entirely how to parse that Energy Manipulation Champion Rank she's got in terms of how much 'better' a fighter she is now...But I'm thinking she basically can swing between 'Master' and 'Champion' rank for any one category that fed into it. So Champion Cero, OR Champion Bala, OR Champion Reiatsu Manipulation.
    The other question is...Just how good is Yammy's Ceroes? It's tough to say. He only seemed to pull out the truly destructive Ceroes in his release and given all the fighting he's doing instead of sitting and eating and building up...I don't think his release will be as dramatic. And thus it's whatever Yammy's baseline Cero might is, versus Nemo's potentially Champion level Ceroes...Nemo might be able to match him. If not surpass him via Gran Rey Cero, since if I'm recalling correctly...
    Yammy doesn't know HOW to Gran Rey Cero. He just uses his Res to make up the difference-he doesn't use it in canon, which might suggest his Cero skill caps out at Veteran. Which kind of suggests if he gets in a Cero war with a fresh Nemo, he might straight-up lose the beam war if she's using Gran Rey Ceroes...Aaaand juuuust maybe even without it? Not sure how that Armor Yammy has now enters into the equation. Of course, Yammy probably wins a Melee fight-I don't think Nemo is fast enough to win that without her Wings, and thus if said Wings are reliant on her having Reiatsu to power them...Of course, that's still not a garunteed win for Nemo-Yammy's got alot of meat to punch though, and risking getting swatted herself means it's possible he holds long enough to get that one lucky swat he needs to splat Nemo across the floor.
    The thing is, there's also Tesla, who also seems likely to take the Nemo down too many pegs for her to go fighting Yammy. Now, do I think Tesla can match Nemo?...Iffy. Nemo didn't want to fight his Res but I figured that was more down to 'can't sit still for the Quatro to catch me!' reasons then 'I can't take him if he releases.' Which uhh, she probably can but also likely to not be trivial in terms of exhaustion-I don't see Nemo just mauling him like last time, though I'm also unsure of the magnitude of that Eye. Don't like Tesla's odds though-feels like if the Eye doesn't cut it or he overdraws heavily enough to make it work Nemo can just go for the attrition win and outlast him. And his popping Res means Nemo could do the same...Which depending on how well Nemo can refresh herself via shadows in Res, might still put the win condition on Tesla having to smash Nemo before she outlasts him long enough to force reverting out of that state and winning on just coming out the other end better off then the Boar.
    So. I think Nemo CAN fight Yammy, Or fight Tesla and come out okay, but not both. This is a distinct problem given the rampant Yammy is hitting anyone he comes across. That said...It all boils down to WHO he runs into. He might go after Aizen and get Suigetsu'd, he could suicide into Stark or Baraggan, or he could mess us up and go into Harribel or Grimmjow...
    Ultimately, I think this is going to make the last fight potentially really wild.
     
    Zaealix said:
    Uhh...Okay soo...
    Thinking about it, could Nemo take Yammy?...Hrrm.
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    No. Not on an anywhere fair fight. Just no. Yammy is a brute force monster, and the armour negates one of his greatest weaknesses - his inefficiency and lack of control. Yammy's problem is that he expands when he powers up - and Bleach is very clear that compression is the route to power. But his armour keeps him small. Rather than bloating into immensity, Yammy's now a pressure cooker under incredible pain below the disassociation.

    But you know the thing about pressure cookers?

    You can make bombs out of them.

    So, no, Nemo is not going to be fighting Yammy on an even footing. She's not strong enough, because Yammy's entire thing is brute uncontrolled force and the armour controls it for him. Yammy can fight Urahara in shikai when he's not even fully powered up and not die.
     
    EarthScorpion said:
    No. Not on an anywhere fair fight. Just no. Yammy is a brute force monster, and the armour negates one of his greatest weaknesses - his inefficiency and lack of control. Yammy's problem is that he expands when he powers up - and Bleach is very clear that compression is the route to power. But his armour keeps him small. Rather than bloating into immensity, Yammy's now a pressure cooker under incredible pain below the disassociation.

    But you know the thing about pressure cookers?

    You can make bombs out of them.

    So, no, Nemo is not going to be fighting Yammy on an even footing. She's not strong enough, because Yammy's entire thing is brute uncontrolled force and the armour controls it for him. Yammy can fight Urahara in shikai when he's not even fully powered up and not die.
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    ...Sorry but I thought Urahara's Shikai's main feature was those funny shield-things? Admittedly I didn't watch or read the Bleach Episodes where Urahara does Bankai but the Shikai seems to me to be a sorta Getsuga Tenshou Sword wave and thoat 'bloody shield's or w/e they were called.
    Personally, I was thinking more along the lines of 'Does Yammy have Legendary Cero?' and given Starrk is a thing, I'm inclined to think the Primera has it and Yammy probably can top out at Champion or so, myself.
     
    Zaealix said:
    ...Sorry but I thought Urahara's Shikai's main feature was those funny shield-things? Admittedly I didn't watch or read the Bleach Episodes where Urahara does Bankai but the Shikai seems to me to be a sorta Getsuga Tenshou Sword wave and thoat 'bloody shield's or w/e they were called.
    Personally, I was thinking more along the lines of 'Does Yammy have Legendary Cero?' and given Starrk is a thing, I'm inclined to think the Primera has it and Yammy probably can top out at Champion or so, myself.
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    Urahara's shikai has three displayed abilities in canon I'm aware of, plus one or two others in films, etc. The ones from the manga are the sword beam, shield, and a counterspell type ability (after analysing Yammy's bala he was able to completely neutralise it with just a circular motion of the tip of Benihime). What makes Urahara so dangerous isn't his sword, it's his overall skill, power, tactics, and science! stuff. His Zanpakuto is just one tool of many in his arsenal.

    That said, it's worth noting that Urahara wasn't, by all appearances, taking his fight with Yammy particularly seriously, and that he was still completely dominating it despite that. If it had gone on much longer or he'd put some actual serious effort in (even staying in shikai), Urahara would easily have either killed Yammy or forced him to release.
     
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