Monster Marriage Quest

Edit: Do we know if there's a special reason to use sheep as tax? Or would any livestock work?

Because sheep are very inefficient from a input feed/output meat standpoint.

Maybe sheep are used because they can be moved long distances without too much trouble, and we can keep paying 'federal tax' that way, but for 'provinical tax' we should look at chicken, fish, rabbits, and insects/worms.
The later are especially efficient from a feed in/meat out standpoint.
I'd be willing to bet that part of it is that sheep is what people were already farming when they were conquered, and retooling local agriculture for different animals with different byproducts is more trouble than it's worth. You can replace mutton with chicken, but you can't replace wool and milk with feathers and eggs.

Also, input feed/output meat just isn't as useful a metric outside of industrial farming. If large numbers of sheep are easier for a small number of people to manage than a similar mass of rabbits or earthworms, it doesn't necessarily matter that the sheep are eating more calories worth of grass.
 
Edit: Do we know if there's a special reason to use sheep as tax? Or would any livestock work?

Because sheep are very inefficient from a input feed/output meat standpoint.

Maybe sheep are used because they can be moved long distances without too much trouble, and we can keep paying 'federal tax' that way, but for 'provinical tax' we should look at chicken, fish, rabbits, and insects/worms.
The later are especially efficient from a feed in/meat out standpoint.
The section covering taxes explicitly labeled it in terms of sheep worth;

Estvallee: Once the second-largest town in Caras' lands, slaughtered completely when Caras finally realized his sunproofed Gatekeeper design was blind to Burner Worms, adjusted it back, and discovered that everyone in the village was infected. One set of notes implies that villagers dying of dehydration was his first hint. Provided fifty sheep every year, before they were slaughtered. Apparently in the northeastern part of his lands, at the edge of the forest and close to the border of Burner territory.

Ville Lumineuse: The largest town in Caras' lands. Sixty sheep a year, on average. One of the Virmires noted that Ville Lumineuse's inhabitants are somewhat uncooperative, and are probably underreporting their size, but this doesn't seem to have been followed up on. Set between the smaller forest -The Bearded Woods- and the larger forest -the Green Blight.

Terre de Moutons: A small town that borders the badlands, just northwest of Caras' castle. As the name suggests, they have a disproportionately large number of sheep, as for whatever reason their sheep are unusually vigorous and healthy. Thirty sheep a year, with a note commenting the number of humans would normally mean they'd only be taxed for ten. There's a triple-underlined note from Virmire II that they're a priority to defend -and every Virmire afterward has repeated this on the same paper. In fact, it was nailed into the desk at Virmire's eye-level, impossible for him to miss when entering the room!

Abandonne: Your hometown! Set somewhat into the Green Blight to the southeast, and prone to covering a third of its sheep tax in hunted foods. You didn't know that. Usually provides 25~ sheep worth of meat each year, which is apparently 'underperforming'.

Lac de Glace: Deep into the Green Blight, and normally covers almost all their 'sheep tax' with fish. Not actually set next to the Ice Lake, though. Usually provides 30~ sheep worth of meat in a year, which is 'about on target'.
eg Abandonne covers a third of it's tax in hunted foods and Lac de Glace does fish instead.
 
The best route would be to expand meat production rather then change it. Every animal has different areas and niches that they excel at.

In more wooded areas, have pigs to eat various nuts and buried plants. You can have goat herds in the same pasture as sheep since they can eat different varieties of plants. Chickens should just be for personal use since it's only economical for them to find their own food and the byproducts of eggs is more valuable then meat.
 
Also, can I just say it's strange we came to see how our prisoners are doing, and after hearing their complaints, there's no option to try and fix things in their lives, beyond letting Teo go?

Sabrina will be making such efforts, I just didn't see any point to going "hey, do you wanna vote on getting those potatoes to Ada y/n?"

And was having a rough day yesterday (Still am today, tbh) so I forgot to do my usual 'X wasn't forgotten, it'll be gotten to in a future update' thing. I similarly had meant to comment that the contract with the Council stuff isn't forgotten, just Things Take Time.

And can we talk to Caras about more than one thing?

Just one for now. I'm trying to pace myself better, for one, but in-universe this is supposed to be a quick conversation.

Though in retrospect I could've included an option for hanging out with Caras for the night. I really should've, even. I've edited such in, in fact:

[]Hang out with Caras for the night! Talk about All The Things! See what he actually does in his 'rounds'! Spend time with him! Hug him lots!

I wonder where the burner worms actually are in the host body. Are they concentrated in one part or spread across the body?

What Sabrina has seen of human hosts combusting makes her think they're concentrated in the torso. I think my description was less clear than my mental image, but when the first holy soldier to combust did so, the mass of worms were all hanging out inside the chestplate to start.

Sabrina doesn't know beyond that.

Edit: Do we know if there's a special reason to use sheep as tax? Or would any livestock work?

Meat in general works: in addition to Terrabrand quoting the tax bit again (I'm starting to think I need to just make an info Threadmark for Caras' tax details...), the last Soissons update referred to 'cattle drivers' bringing cattle in for the Council.

My out-of-universe reason for picking sheep as Caras' 'unit of measurement' was simply the related points that

A: My understanding is that sheep have historically been favored over cows in large parts of the world for a variety of reasons (Easier to move, for one)

and B: I'm keenly aware that the modern American intense focus on cattle as The Default Livestock Animal is actually pretty weird from a historical perspective and so didn't want to mindlessly slot in cows

and C: my understanding is that historically cows were valued much more consistently for their milk than their flesh, vs sheep were valued for their milk and wool but also for their flesh, so Gendarmerie priorities would probably favor sheep over cows

I should probably actually try to do research on what animals were historically raised primarily to be slaughtered. (Now that I think about it: pigs? I don't think I've ever heard of pigs being a product outside the context of slaughtering them) That way, whenever the topic inevitably comes up in regards to Soissons' policies, I have something reasonably appropriate picked out.

I'm not sure why a non-procreative marriage bothers Svenja so much, unless it's just implying a lesbian comp-het thing.

This was Svenja asking about sex without directly asking about sex.

And Sabrina having that go right over her head.
 
Sabrina will be making such efforts, I just didn't see any point to going "hey, do you wanna vote on getting those potatoes to Ada y/n?"

And was having a rough day yesterday (Still am today, tbh) so I forgot to do my usual 'X wasn't forgotten, it'll be gotten to in a future update' thing. I similarly had meant to comment that the contract with the Council stuff isn't forgotten, just Things Take Time.



Just one for now. I'm trying to pace myself better, for one, but in-universe this is supposed to be a quick conversation.

Though in retrospect I could've included an option for hanging out with Caras for the night. I really should've, even. I've edited such in, in fact:

[]Hang out with Caras for the night! Talk about All The Things! See what he actually does in his 'rounds'! Spend time with him! Hug him lots!



What Sabrina has seen of human hosts combusting makes her think they're concentrated in the torso. I think my description was less clear than my mental image, but when the first holy soldier to combust did so, the mass of worms were all hanging out inside the chestplate to start.

Sabrina doesn't know beyond that.



Meat in general works: in addition to Terrabrand quoting the tax bit again (I'm starting to think I need to just make an info Threadmark for Caras' tax details...), the last Soissons update referred to 'cattle drivers' bringing cattle in for the Council.

My out-of-universe reason for picking sheep as Caras' 'unit of measurement' was simply the related points that

A: My understanding is that sheep have historically been favored over cows in large parts of the world for a variety of reasons (Easier to move, for one)

and B: I'm keenly aware that the modern American intense focus on cattle as The Default Livestock Animal is actually pretty weird from a historical perspective and so didn't want to mindlessly slot in cows

and C: my understanding is that historically cows were valued much more consistently for their milk than their flesh, vs sheep were valued for their milk and wool but also for their flesh, so Gendarmerie priorities would probably favor sheep over cows

I should probably actually try to do research on what animals were historically raised primarily to be slaughtered. (Now that I think about it: pigs? I don't think I've ever heard of pigs being a product outside the context of slaughtering them)
Pigs have also been valued as essentially living garbage / waste disposal in some reigons.

The Truth About Pig Toilets In Ancient China - Grunge Pig toilet - Wikipedia

Truffle hunting with pigs is also perhaps worth a mention.

It is true though that pigs have mostly been valued for their slaughtered byproducts rather than their services. Though on that note not always just for food. I have to wonder weather Integrated Animals could be a thing akin to say growing human organs in pigs IRL?
In terms of understanding biology or at least their own the gendarmare seem quite ahead of the other polities we have seen so far.

I'd love to talk more about sheep and their very long complicated histories also but I have the tireds at the moment.
 
"Away," quietly murmurs the younger sister in a far-off tone. "Away from our uncle-" the older sister's grip tightens on you oddly. "-and the priests. We're Teufel's children now. They'd purify us." The older sister makes a choked sobbing noise, like being 'purified' is a horrifying thing.
"I have to go back. Even knowing... I have to go back."

Felix says, "I am not so sure of that." You tilt your head consideringly, while Beardy Man just looks at Felix like he's a lunatic. Felix continues, "The way they- the way they... dealt with Ingo." Beardy Man just looks confused, and you didn't follow that whole thing in the first place so you really don't know what to guess Felix is driving at. "It was always wrong, and now I think they knew he wouldn't keep their secrets, and killed him for it."
Well, if we let Teo go without Ada (the priestess) to speak in his defence, even if he keeps his mouth shut, this is the likely outcome. If he talks about anything other than the horrors visited on people in the Shadowlands, this is a certainty.

...which might or might not be reason enough to consider alternatives.
 
…I'm torn because a part of me thought he cared for her but then again…Maybe not?
For the Teo thing, could we not get him to take care of Ada somehow? Though that might actually be a bad idea considering how he seems willing to just abandon her, pity...

Have they been allowed to interact at all? If Teo's spent most of the past month or more being in complete darkness and isolated from human interaction, I wouldn't really hold him being willing to abandon Ada to just leave against Teo that much. Like solitary confinement alone is known to really really fuck up full grown adults, much less whatever partial constant sensory deprivation from 24/7 darkness might do to someone. I'm a sap who loves childhood friends to lovers and being willing to endure extreme conditions for ~*love*~ but at the same time do think it's not te most reasonable standard to hold people to.
 
[X]Nah, he stays. You're pretty sure you'll find a use for him eventually.
[X]You still haven't actually talked about the possibility of extending the Integration. You'd like to at least know what Caras does (and does not!) know regarding it.
[X]Hang out with Caras for the night! Talk about All The Things! See what he actually does in his 'rounds'! Spend time with him! Hug him lots!
 
I'd love to talk more about sheep and their very long complicated histories also but I have the tireds at the moment.
I'm interested in hearing what you have to say about sheep after you wake up.
Well, if we let Teo go without Ada (the priestess) to speak in his defence, even if he keeps his mouth shut, this is the likely outcome. If he talks about anything other than the horrors visited on people in the Shadowlands, this is a certainty.

...which might or might not be reason enough to consider alternatives.
He knows more than we do about Neustadt and still wants to leave.

[x]Sure, if he's willing to carry a letter back to Neustadt.
-[x]Containing a detailed accounting of this whole 'Burner Worms shipped out to the Freelands' thing.
-[x]Assuring Neustadt you don't intend to bother them anytime soon if they continue to not be aggressive toward the Freelands.
[X]Hang out with Caras for the night! Talk about All The Things! See what he actually does in his 'rounds'! Spend time with him! Hug him lots!
 
He knows more than we do about Neustadt and still wants to leave.
Indeed he does.
Teo has been the reverse: initially he wasn't trying particularly hard to be uncooperative, but as time has gone on he's become angrier and more prone to attempting violence, demanding he be sent home, injuring himself by trying to bash his room's door open, and just generally behaving like a chained animal that increasingly doesn't care if it loses skin so long as the chain comes off.
Keeping him in the castle isn't doing him any good, obviously. But if we want him to have a chance at returning to some semblance of normality, it might be best to just let him out, no strings attached.

...of course, this will result in more rumors about Teufel being spread around, so it might be contrary to our goals. Hence the choice.
 
Last edited:
Keeping him in the castle isn't doing him any good either. But if we want him to have a chance at returning to some semblance of normality, it might be best to just let him out, no strings attached.
I could equally argue that letting him leave without an obvious ulterior motive could make him seem more suspicious.

I don't actually think there's anything we can do on our end to decide what happens to him. If the church wants a witch to burn, a martyr to mourn, a heretic to shun, or a survivor to venerate, it won't have any trouble turning him into any of those things. Unless the church's power is being challenged, in which case God only knows what he's walking into.

No matter what happens with him, though, I don't see any good coming from continued ambiguity. Clearly state our grievances, clearly state what we're doing with those grievances, and what the Commoners do with that information is up to them.
 
I'd be willing to bet that part of it is that sheep is what people were already farming when they were conquered, and retooling local agriculture for different animals with different byproducts is more trouble than it's worth. You can replace mutton with chicken, but you can't replace wool and milk with feathers and eggs.

Also, input feed/output meat just isn't as useful a metric outside of industrial farming. If large numbers of sheep are easier for a small number of people to manage than a similar mass of rabbits or earthworms, it doesn't necessarily matter that the sheep are eating more calories worth of grass.

I'm absolutely thinking in terms of industrial farming, because the Gendarmerie would have a vested material interest in improving how much meat they can get, and breeds open up the potential for things that wouldn't be practical IRL.

Big compost troughs full of earthworms for instance could provide a year round steady supply of biomater more efficiently than pigs, and the resulting compost could be used to improve agricultural yields.

Through admittedly Sabrina would not have the background to be thinking in those terms.
 
Last edited:
[x]Sure, if he's willing to carry a letter back to Neustadt.
-[x]Containing a detailed accounting of this whole 'Burner Worms shipped out to the Freelands' thing.
-[x]Assuring Neustadt you don't intend to bother them anytime soon if they continue to not be aggressive toward the Freelands.
[X]Hang out with Caras for the night! Talk about All The Things! See what he actually does in his 'rounds'! Spend time with him! Hug him lots!

I definitely want to talk about All The Things and get more information about it all, and also spend time with our hubby.
 
Have they been allowed to interact at all? If Teo's spent most of the past month or more being in complete darkness and isolated from human interaction, I wouldn't really hold him being willing to abandon Ada to just leave against Teo that much. Like solitary confinement alone is known to really really fuck up full grown adults, much less whatever partial constant sensory deprivation from 24/7 darkness might do to someone. I'm a sap who loves childhood friends to lovers and being willing to endure extreme conditions for ~*love*~ but at the same time do think it's not te most reasonable standard to hold people to.
Well, I was considering doing a write-in to specifically get Teo and Ada in the same room to at least get them to start talking, but it did seem like quite a bit of time to take action compared to the current choices Sabrina can make. I figure this would happen at some point if we just have him around anyway.
 
Almost forgot to vote!

[X]Sure, if he's willing to carry a letter back to Neustadt.
-[X]Containing a detailed accounting of this whole 'Burner Worms shipped out to the Freelands' thing.
-[X]Assuring Neustadt you don't intend to bother them anytime soon if they continue to not be aggressive toward the Freelands.

Hopefully this will get them to deal with their own problems instead of blaming us for all of them. Once we get the flying core, we can hopefully kill some of the szumowiny. Of course, we won't do it for free. We can probably get a favorable peace treaty, trade agreement, and some loot.

[X]Tax stuff! You have ideas! You want to share them so any good ideas can bear fruit sooner!

We'll need more taxes to make all of those cores and fund other projects.

[X]Hang out with Caras for the night! Talk about All The Things! See what he actually does in his 'rounds'! Spend time with him! Hug him lots!

More Caras interaction! More fluffy and heartwarming moments! More insight into the world!
The bandit fort can be dealt with, but a bit later. We can even have both Caras and Sabrina go together! (Bandit corpses would be a good source of meat.)
 
I'll probably formally close the vote tomorrow (Today is a lot of drama: there's no way I'd get any writing done), but currently the winning votes are the trio of 'send Teo off with a letter', 'talk about tax stuff before heading out', and 'hang out with Caras tonight'. With no serious competition to any of those points.
 
[]Nah, you're recommending Caras renders him. He's going to need resources for those Cores you promised the Council, for one...

For two this person seems superstitous and hostile enough that I'm unconvinced that he can be threatened or bribed into helping freelanders in any way.

feeling even more sick-ill drowsy than earlier so unsure on the other interactions aside from abadonne potentially being risky of giving sbarina greif with her father likely dead, plus her maybe being extra disliked now.


[X]Sure, send him packing. Whatever. At least that way he's eating at Neustadt's expense, not yours.
 
Last edited:
@Ghoul King Quick check, does hang out with Caras mean we talk about all the topics? Including tax and integration and stuff?
 
I'm in favor of letting Teo go, because in the end the choice ought to belong to him.

Sabrina has both an extremely biased and highly limited view of Teo's society.

I think he's likely to experience negative results, even up to being killed horribly, but that's both his choice and he's markedly more capable of an informed decision compared to Sabrina.

If that was the only reason, that would be adequate for me. There are several other benefits I can think of regarding letting him go.
One, the act supports externally the interpretation that Sabrina is honest about her intentions. The people she holds hostage are not being held because she likes being evil.
Two, I'm in favor of eventually letting Ada go. When she returns to the Freelands, the treatment of Teo will either encourage peace between the Free Lands and the Commoners or demonstrate that Sabrina was yet further correct in her concerns about the Free Lands.
Three, it will drive a wedge between the warmongering and peaceable priests of the Free Lands, over the arguments about what Teo being released means.
Four, he is becoming a problem here for no benefit. Getting rid of him by means of being a good person will bolster Sabrina's claims of being a good person to Ada and the others.
Five, finding out what happened to him will likely be easy, compared to getting other information about the Free Lander politics, resulting in very useful information about how they treat innocent people.

That's all I've got. I'd personally rather Teo got his head on straight, but I don't feel like Sabrina has the right to force that choice on him.
 
If that was the only reason, that would be adequate for me. There are several other benefits I can think of regarding letting him go.
One, the act supports externally the interpretation that Sabrina is honest about her intentions. The people she holds hostage are not being held because she likes being evil.
Two, I'm in favor of eventually letting Ada go. When she returns to the Freelands, the treatment of Teo will either encourage peace between the Free Lands and the Commoners or demonstrate that Sabrina was yet further correct in her concerns about the Free Lands.
Three, it will drive a wedge between the warmongering and peaceable priests of the Free Lands, over the arguments about what Teo being released means.
Four, he is becoming a problem here for no benefit. Getting rid of him by means of being a good person will bolster Sabrina's claims of being a good person to Ada and the others.
Five, finding out what happened to him will likely be easy, compared to getting other information about the Free Lander politics, resulting in very useful information about how they treat innocent people.

That's all I've got. I'd personally rather Teo got his head on straight, but I don't feel like Sabrina has the right to force that choice on him.
Is he actually being a problem though? Really he haven't actually done anything other than insult Sabrina and her family.

Also, I'm not sure where you're getting the assumption that releasing them makes Sabrina a honest or a good person, really it's more likely that even if Teo/Ada gets back home, they would be silenced or disposed for being 'corrupted', and Sabrina is just enabling that future if she releases them as it is.
 
Last edited:
I'm not sure where you're getting the assumption that releasing them makes Sabrina a honest or a good person
Treating others as they want to be treated is pretty much the most basic and universal basis of being good. I don't mean any nonsense about it being the end all of moral philosophy, but it's a common foundational consideration.

Sabrina has good reason to hold onto Ada, but no reason to hold onto Teo. She could home onto him to torment him or as leverage over others, but she can instead be kind. She told her hostages that she was calling then to help her people. She has extracted the near zero help that Teo can provide, so she has no reason to force him to stay.

Is he actually being a problem though?
Yes
He's described as behaving like a chained animal, including hurting himself while trying to violently break down the door to his room.
 
And you think the other people we brought back are going to be more friendly and cooperative when we kill one of their countrymen?
They seemed mostly uncooperative anyways but with lesser degrees of such. That said I hadn't considered possibly losing intel oppourtunities from increased hostility for such and thus I'll be changing my vote.
The last time we rendered someone we already pretty much had all the information we were likely to get from his compatriots and he didn't come across as especially liked by them, whereas with Teo neither are true.
 
@Ghoul King Quick check, does hang out with Caras mean we talk about all the topics? Including tax and integration and stuff?

That was the intended takeaway, yes. I make no promises that it'll all definitely be covered (if for no other reason than because I might forget something), but that's the idea.

Anyway, formally closing the vote.

Sabrina is letting Teo go, contingent on him carrying a letter back home detailing both the Burner Worm crimes and emphasizing that Neustadt will be left alone if it doesn't continue aggression, then talking with Caras about tax stuff, then actually y'know what she's coming with him on his rounds and getting EVERYTHING talked about TONIGHT.

Update incoming, please stand by.
Scheduled vote count started by Ghoul King on Oct 1, 2024 at 3:46 PM, finished with 39 posts and 10 votes.

  • [x]Sure, if he's willing to carry a letter back to Neustadt.
    -[x]Containing a detailed accounting of this whole 'Burner Worms shipped out to the Freelands' thing.
    -[x]Assuring Neustadt you don't intend to bother them anytime soon if they continue to not be aggressive toward the Freelands.
    [x]Tax stuff! You have ideas! You want to share them so any good ideas can bear fruit sooner!
    [X]Hang out with Caras for the night! Talk about All The Things! See what he actually does in his 'rounds'! Spend time with him! Hug him lots!
    [X]Nah, he stays. You're pretty sure you'll find a use for him eventually.
    [X]Go check up on the border road, with the traps and so on. You're still not sure of its condition.
    [x]Go visit a village, see how things are going.
    -[x]Abandonne. It's been a while since you've seen your family, and also Abandonne is apparently underperforming on its sheep tax?
    [X]Sure, send him packing. Whatever. At least that way he's eating at Neustadt's expense, not yours.
    -[X] Make sure he actually knows how to get back to Neustadt, and warn him about the traps.
    [X]Prep an armed escort and check out the accidental Bandit Fort. See if you can undo that damage.
    [x]Sure, if he's willing to carry a letter back to Neustadt.
    -[x]Containing a detailed accounting of this whole 'Burner Worms shipped out to the Freelands' thing.
    [X]You still haven't actually talked about the possibility of extending the Integration. You'd like to at least know what Caras does (and does not!) know regarding it.
    [X]Sure, send him packing. Whatever. At least that way he's eating at Neustadt's expense, not yours.
 
Us having Sabrina focus on diplomacy and taxes reminds me of a quote from a US General, "Infantry wins battles, logistics wins wars." She is helping Caras in his war effort, but in a different way then he expected.

But we should still go full brutal warrior on that bandit fort.
 
Back
Top