I'm wondering if Caras and Virmire have ever bought any meat before. It feels very obvious, but it is still something to think about just to get more Breeds. We could sell some of the rusted armor and weapons we have for scrap metal to fund the purchase, since any sort of usable metal is valuable.
To be fair to Virmire, Delegate's friendship does not appear to be entirely sane. Recall that Delegate gave Sabrina an additional Core beyond what was necessary for the trade. He got this Core by lying his overlord, a deception that by his admission would get him killed and replaced if was found out.
(I actually think Delegate's story(I told the Viscount the Core went bad and that I had to feed it to a breed) might have been a lie to Sabrina. Would the Viscount of Dire Hollows really fall for that?)
I mean we haven't seen the viscount so really the question is 'is Caras similarly or more or less derpy than this guy', because depending on how much Dire Hollows actually pays attention to the basic processes vs how much he delegates them to Delegate, he may genuinely not know such an excuse is all but guaranteed lying or whatever.
The stopping of trade is most likely not a big problem for taxes. Since sales tax doesn't exist and would be impossible to enforce, the only taxes a trader would pay would be for tolls and setting up a stall. With how naïve Caras and Virmire about traveling merchants, I doubt they have set up either. Of course, the mayor of a town might be collecting these and not telling anyone.
Hmm. I thought I'd addressed this some in an early update, but I'm not finding it and am not up to combing through all the early updates to check.
My thought this whole time that I could've sworn got a relatively direct allusion in an update was that Caras is paid money by the Council in exchange for unspecified tithes or actions on Caras' part, and largely just lets a pile of coinage sit in a room and only occasionally is any of it pulled out for stuff like paying Sabrina's family the promised bride-price, with a heavy implication he doesn't get money from his vassals. I certainly recall intending that the Storm Beasts grabbed a bunch of it in the raid, but I can't find evidence I actually referenced this happening in the Quest.
This is all stuff Sabrina would know about if I'd been doing my job right regardless of whether I did include any of this in an update, for reference, so Questors are intended to know this much.
I probably should've been clearer in the updates that Cores are in fact supposed to be sensitive organisms that can die of dehydration, or by an infection taking root, or from really careless jostling. I recall that by the time of the Delegate updates I was in the Nightmare Apartment and it was already dragging down my mental function, so I was pretty sloppy: the box for example was meant to be kind of weird and have some water in it to keep the Cores alive, but I know I didn't actually communicate this at all.
That said, your interpretation is entirely fair and I'm not actually saying you're wrong, just being reminded that this is context I should've given in the first place. I might edit one of those posts to better describe the box and the Cores: I have a very specific mental image for them and always have, but I'm pretty sure I didn't describe them at all.
Proposal for taxes: if rendering makes worm-infected food harmless, we can tax food that the people weren't going to eat anyway. Allow hunting for tax purposes. Encourage it, even, since getting worms out of the ecosystem is killing two birds with one stone.
More broadly, the burden of what sounds like an impending tax hike could be reduced somewhat by explaining to the peasantry that we're not looking for good meat, just biomass.
... but that said, it's certainly meant to be the case that the Gendarme processing is less picky overall than your average human, where Caras could potentially go 'hey, if you kill something you find inedible, take it to my forces and you'll get some money in exchange', so I'll certainly keep this in mind for when Sabrina gets back to Caras' territory.
-------------------
Anyway, probably not getting the update up today, but closing the vote since clearly the decision is set.
Sabrina is saying we were in the middle of such a plan when I got sent here, actually.
Update incoming, please stand by.
Scheduled vote count started by Ghoul King on Sep 16, 2024 at 7:52 PM, finished with 30 posts and 10 votes.
[X]"We were in the middle of executing such a plan regarding the Commoners and their Burner Worms when your agent showed up, actually." True! Albeit this was mostly your work rather than plotted out by Caras, and you're not entirely sure how the Council would view that aspect.
[X]"We trust in the Great Plan, of course." With meeting the Breed priest a few days back, you've been thinking about religion a bit since then, and it is true you and Caras behave as priests say one is supposed to. You were explicitly told the Council has little love for religion, of course, but that doesn't mean they won't accept such an answer as real. It'll probably lower their opinions of Caras, admittedly...
[X]"We were in the middle of executing such a plan regarding the Commoners and their Burner Worms when your agent showed up, actually." True! Albeit this was mostly your work rather than plotted out by Caras, and you're not entirely sure how the Council would view that aspect.
-[X] My husband's plans are focused on removing the Burner Worm threat, whether by war or by subversion, with myself as his instrument.
I certainly recall intending that the Storm Beasts grabbed a bunch of it in the raid, but I can't find evidence I actually referenced this happening in the Quest.
... and when the merchant shows up, Virmire does in fact pass over a partial compensation for the man's losses. Caras apparently has an allowance from the Council, but has had little use for it over the years... though there's no convenient stockpile to take advantage of, as coinage is apparently a favorite of Storm Beasts to steal.
Proposal for taxes: if rendering makes worm-infected food harmless, we can tax food that the people weren't going to eat anyway. Allow hunting for tax purposes. Encourage it, even, since getting worms out of the ecosystem is killing two birds with one stone.
More broadly, the burden of what sounds like an impending tax hike could be reduced somewhat by explaining to the peasantry that we're not looking for good meat, just biomass.
I'm not sure how sensitive it is or not but It does stand out to me that we've never seen a heart able to render plant matter or just bone or something so I've been imagining there must be some limits on what can be rendered?
Otherwise you could just rake up some big bags of leaves and decaying mulch and be done with it, surely?
I'm not sure how sensitive it is or not but It does stand out to me that we've never seen a heart able to render plant matter or just bone or something so I've been imagining there must be some limits on what can be rendered?
Otherwise you could just rake up some big bags of leaves and decaying mulch and be done with it, surely?
I'm assuming that bare minimum it has to be from an animal and it might even need a mostly intact whole animal, because otherwise asking for meat is just inefficient. But there's still value in knowing that the sheep tax doesn't need to prioritize good mutton and can in fact prioritize the worst, including animals that would be actively unhealthy to eat. Makes the tax somewhat less of a burden on the people who survive off the good meat.
So I hope in general that we eventually learn more about the whole ''heart'' rendering germanderie production cycle thing. Like *why* is regualr biomass a poison for them to consume?
How do new hearts get made? How did this all originate?
These questions will probably be on my mind for a long time to come given how well written this has been so far.
"We were in the middle of executing such a plan regarding the Commoners and their Burner Worms when your agent showed up, actually," you finally settle on, a little concerned how the Council might view this point. A fair argument could be made you came up with the plan, not Caras, after all.
"You said your intentions had changed with the new information," Oroxthanp grinds out in a somewhat accusatory manner, which is not at all something you expected to be criticized.
"Plans don't survive contact with the enemy. You'd know this if you'd fought anyone in the last century," Zyzixion comments mildly.
"You know we want such plans so we can consolidate and coordinate," Oroxthanp grinds out in apparent exasperation.
"What's the point of forcing the Baron to make a plan he must inevitably change? We'll just be coordinating with a bad assumption," Zyzixion comments, sounding a bit annoyed.
"Just knowing what he's thinking is good," Oroxthanp argues grindingly.
"Coordination is good, but we don't need such details immediately. It would be good to know if this Baron intends to fight a defensive war, building up his territory and shipping out the Cores for finding these 'Burner Worms', or if he intends to take the risks of a more aggressive war, but the rest can wait until the Cores are shipped out and their principles extracted successfully across the Freelands" says Chistomique.
Once again, the weight of the Council's attention falls upon you. "I... suppose that depends on what your intentions would be in each scenario?" you say. You're pretty sure fighting the Burner Worm threat will remain your and Caras' topmost priority until it's at least a much less imminent threat, but you're still unclear why the Council cares about knowing your plans.
"We will ban your neighbors from infringing on your territory until the Core for detecting these parasites has been properly proliferated and confirmed, regardless of your intentions, but if you intend aggression the ban will last until we consider your Baron to have discharged his duties or he dies or ceases aggression." explains Zamvek.
"If fighting this menace will be your utmost priority, then we will be working from the assumption your Baron is likely to die soon in terms of our timetables," adds Sussuron. Wait, what?
"Aggressive Lords die more often than those who focus on holding and developing their territory. We have to assume the worst," Zyzixion further explains. Oh, that makes sense. A grim sense. But sensible. You'd thought for a moment Sussuron was implying Caras would die if going on offense. Planning as if he might is reasonable.
"We will expect your Baron to provide the required Cores before launching a campaign of aggression," Flittertrust adds. "If he focuses on defense, then the Cores can be parceled out at a slower pace if he does not want to gut his resources."
"Speaking of," Plenarios remarks. "I think we have what we need to discuss compensation."
Oh, that's a bit of a surprise. You'd... figured they'd want to talk to Caras himself.
"Given the importance of this Core's swift proliferation, I would say a fair price per Core is-" Fa-Zoliv quotes a number of coins that's a bit eyepopping. "Petty cash can cover the first fifty if they are produced within one month," they add. That's... a lot of money. You're... not sure what Caras would use so much money for? It's difficult to wrap your head around and anyway Caras doesn't seem to have a ton of need for money?
After waiting a moment to see if anything else is going to be said, you cautiously remark, "I... was not expecting monetary compensation? I had figured a trade of some kind would occur." You're a bit surprised at the Council going straight to cash payment given everything you've seen of Soissons and all.
There's a moment where you get the impression that maybe you've committed some kind of faux pas.
"Coinage is simpler. Doesn't require a complex contract and arguing over definitions," Hisstop notes.
"Weak value," Zyzixion comments ambiguously.
"Lords are often perfectly happy to take money. Not everyone is like you, Zyzixion," Sussuron comments with amusement.
Zyzixion's head jerks briefly to look at Sussuron, unreadable to you, before focusing on you and jabbing a limb in your direction. (Which would be very threatening if she weren't so far away) "You were never a border weakling." Wow, rude! "You never had to precariously protect one Heart and develop your Breed arsenal from scratch. You cheated with the Integration invention, skipped past all that." Zyzixion shakes her head here. "Money is weak value to a weakling on the border." So rude!
You catch yourself pursing your lips in annoyance and straighten out your expression before commenting, "My household is currently forbidden from hiring soldiers with money for reasons that are opaque to me. So that's one use for money denied us."
"See? Weak value." "Money has many uses." "Weak value." "Fine, be stubborn."
"That ban is not being lifted. Your territory is too weak to pull humans away from production, the Baron of Soul-Consuming Carapace Shadows relies heavily on brute force direct action which kills or cripples humans at an unacceptably high rate, and he's never hit his cap on Integrated vassals," Quevale comments in a firm-but-polite manner. Wait, Caras would have to Integrate other people to have any chance of being allowed to hire human soldiers?!?... fie. Drat and damn. You're... putting that in the back of your head for now.
After a moment of quiet you comment, "I wasn't pushing for that ban to be lifted. I just noted it as a flaw with paying us in cash."
"Weak value." "Oh gracious... you don't have to keep saying that." "Weak value." "siiiigh..."
"If you have a specific request in mind, I suppose we can at least consider it, but make it quick. This has already dragged on longer than we scheduled for," Perilintheque comments, sounding mildly annoyed.
"Well..."
[]"I think trading Cores for Cores would be more than fair. Say, three types in exchange for our many copies of one type?" Your understanding of Cores suggests that an actual tit-for-tat per Core would be viewed as extremely greedy, but surely three different Cores for 50+ copies of one Core is fair? Maybe even generous to them?
-[]"Zyzixion has fireproofing, and as the frontline against Burner Worms that would greatly help us do our duty."
-[]"Flight would help us fend off the Szumowiny, and is currently outside our wheelhouse, but I notice it is very common in Soissons."
-[]"Those constructions for spreading cloud cover across Soissons wouldn't be too much to ask, would they?"
-[]"I met a Breed who could modulate his voice to not offend the ears of non-Integrated humans. Could you provide anything like that?"
-[]"I noticed that Premièreombre Zamvek's agent, Ixtriss, had a sunproofing method unfamiliar to me. It would be very helpful to have greater freedom to operate in the daylight."
-[]"Premièreombre Zamvek seems to have a method of seeing without relying on eyes that glow. Would they part with such?"
-[]"Premièreombre Sussuron is a specialist in Integration, yes? Aid in improving our own techniques there would be greatly appreciated."
-[]"Premièreombre Mortifère-ami's spidersilk-esque capability interests me. I can see potential for it to be combined with our designs."
-[]"Freewheeling Raptors had a terribly convenient method of long-range communication with even non-Integrated humans. Would you be able to advocate on our part for this technique?"
-[]Write-in. (A general concept, or a specific feature I've alluded to in any updates but forgot to include here. If you do name a specific feature, it would be nice if you linked to the post where it came up so I can be sure I know what you're referring to. Also, submit only 3 sub-votes, just to be explicit)
[]"It would certainly help if more raw material could make its way to our castle, to cover the costs of growing the required Cores and help us prepare for future conflict with the Commoners."
[]"If the rules on long-term hiring could be relaxed in regard to non-military jobs, that would greatly improve our ability to actually use any funds paid for Cores, as well as improve our ability to develop our territory."
[]Write-in. (I'm pretty sure I'm forgetting something obvious, but if I don't put this up soon it won't go up today at all, and I'd rather not have the update waiting another day while I continue to not think of One More Option, even though 3 over-votes is genuinely fewer than I prefer to provide)
(This took way longer than it should've in part because my first draft was not great an idea. Also, next update is in fact getting out of the Council chamber. Didn't expect to have quite this many updates in it, honestly)
[X]"It would certainly help if more raw material could make its way to our castle, to cover the costs of growing the required Cores and help us prepare for future conflict with the Commoners."
This seems both like a practical plan and one unlikely to cause unintended offense or delay with the council.
[]"It would certainly help if more raw material could make its way to our castle, to cover the costs of growing the required Cores and help us prepare for future conflict with the Commoners."
I feel that lots of what we already have would help more than some novel core that needs time to integrate into our forces. And it's a much easier ask- fireproofing would probably be useful, but if he was willing to casually give it away it would be more widespread than it is. They've already offered coin, and that's basically the same thing, we're just shifting the administrative/shipping burden, because...
[X]"If the rules on long-term hiring could be relaxed in regard to non-military jobs, that would greatly improve our ability to actually use any funds paid for Cores, as well as improve our ability to develop our territory."
Virmire and Sabrina are too busy. They do not have time to do everything they need to do. Being able to deputize tax collectors, judges, and possibly spies would give jobs to our new friends, and increase our action economy. We can hire somebody to turn Caras' coin into raw materials, and in the future more tax means more coins means more materials.
[]"If the rules on long-term hiring could be relaxed in regard to non-military jobs, that would greatly improve our ability to actually use any funds paid for Cores, as well as improve our ability to develop our territory."
Either this or the Cores. Raw material is nice but we can get it without the Council. The best thing to get out of this is something that changes how we operate in the long term.
[X]"I think trading Cores for Cores would be more than fair. Say, three types in exchange for our many copies of one type?" Your understanding of Cores suggests that an actual tit-for-tat per Core would be viewed as extremely greedy, but surely three different Cores for 50+ copies of one Core is fair? Maybe even generous to them?
-[X]"Zyzixion has fireproofing, and as the frontline against Burner Worms that would greatly help us do our duty."
-[X]"Flight would help us fend off the Szumowiny, and is currently outside our wheelhouse, but I notice it is very common in Soissons."
-[X]"I met a Breed who could modulate his voice to not offend the ears of non-Integrated humans. Could you provide anything like that?"
Reasoning:
Fireproofing is uniquely suitable for fighting people whose superpower is catching fire. Nobody can argue that our specific situation doesn't justify asking for it, so even if it's closely guarded generally there's a pretty good reason to expect an exception to be made in our case.
Something common like this isn't asking anyone in particular for their core, so the Council can decide who gets shafted. And it would be very useful, though it's not strictly necessary since I'm pretty sure Caras can come up with a way to use the lightning core to shoot down flyers if he sets his mind to it.
Talking to humans is an increasingly large portion of our playbook. It'd reduce friction somewhat with Commoners, and a breed who can tell our subjects who's a brigand, worm smuggler, or prostitute without Sabrina's help would save a lot of effort. Might even save Caras and Virmire effort in the long run too, if the Breed can spread decrees instead of tying Virmire up handwriting every individual pamphlet. And, similarly to 2, while it doesn't seem very common it at least isn't a direct request of the Council or a neighbor.
TL;DR it's one big ask for a very good reason and a couple useful smaller requests.
[X]"If the rules on long-term hiring could be relaxed in regard to non-military jobs, that would greatly improve our ability to actually use any funds paid for Cores, as well as improve our ability to develop our territory."
Labor can be converted into goods and services. Goods and services can be turned into capital. Capital can be used to hire labor. Keep on repeating the cycle to grow our economy.
Actually, would non-military jobs include guards, sheriffs, and other law enforcement? They aren't part of the military, but are still armed. I'm mostly asking this because if we were to set-up any sort of costal town, we would want some to defend against Scaled Folk. Having boats would be great for fishing and trading.
I would like burrowers, personally. So many options in the short term, and eventually tunnel systems in the very long term.
I agree that flight should be a priority.
I'm leaning towards better voice or better integration as the last one.
I think integration. Feels more protagonist focused for the narrative, and keeps the culture class between humans and genderme. Both are lines I like for the story telling part of this quest
[X]"It would certainly help if more raw material could make its way to our castle, to cover the costs of growing the required Cores and help us prepare for future conflict with the Commoners."
As I understand things this is one of the two bottlenecks Cara's is restricted by that he understands.
-[]"Premièreombre Sussuron is a specialist in Integration, yes? Aid in improving our own techniques there would be greatly appreciated."
I feel like if we don't take this we might want to hold off on further integrations, because frankly, Borderlings who are weak probably don't want to spend time or acting their integrations in general and given Caras attitude in particular? Well I imagine he's very not good at it.
[X]"I think trading Cores for Cores would be more than fair. Say, three types in exchange for our many copies of one type?" Your understanding of Cores suggests that an actual tit-for-tat per Core would be viewed as extremely greedy, but surely three different Cores for 50+ copies of one Core is fair? Maybe even generous to them?
-[X]"Zyzixion has fireproofing, and as the frontline against Burner Worms that would greatly help us do our duty."
-[X]"Flight would help us fend off the Szumowiny, and is currently outside our wheelhouse, but I notice it is very common in Soissons."
-[X]"I met a Breed who could modulate his voice to not offend the ears of non-Integrated humans. Could you provide anything like that?"
I'm still thinking about if Cores or the ability to hire noncombat people is more valuable, but for those voting for Cores, may I suggest that this is more valuable than better integration/nicer voice?
-[]"Freewheeling Raptors had a terribly convenient method of long-range communication with even non-Integrated humans. Would you be able to advocate on our part for this technique?"
Long distance communication even to non integrated humans. Caras would be able to command Breeds to raid Commoners even while staying safely in the castle. We'd maybe be able to keep talking to Caras even at much greater distances. Maybe able to talk more easily to human administrators / mayors and other such leadership. This is pretty big. Arguably more important than simply sounding less creepy.
I'm still thinking about if Cores or the ability to hire noncombat people is more valuable, but for those voting for Cores, may I suggest that this is more valuable than better integration/nicer voice?
-[]"Freewheeling Raptors had a terribly convenient method of long-range communication with even non-Integrated humans. Would you be able to advocate on our part for this technique?"
Long distance communication even to non integrated humans. Caras would be able to command Breeds to raid Commoners even while staying safely in the castle. We'd maybe be able to keep talking to Caras even at much greater distances. Maybe able to talk more easily to human administrators / mayors and other such leadership. This is pretty big. Arguably more important than simply sounding less creepy.
I want to avoid that one because it's asking for something from a neighbor who won't be involved in the decision. Seems like the kind of thing that creates problems further down the line.
I want to avoid that one because it's asking for something from a neighbor who won't be involved in the decision. Seems like the kind of thing that creates problems further down the line.
My understanding is that we're picking these ideas from what we've seen of Breeds so far, but the Council won't necessarily take directly from Freewheeling Raptors, but give their own equivalent.
@Ghoul King Can I check if we need to worry about the politics of who we're taking what core types from, on top of figuring out which cores are useful, should we choose that option?
[X]"I think trading Cores for Cores would be more than fair. Say, three types in exchange for our many copies of one type?" Your understanding of Cores suggests that an actual tit-for-tat per Core would be viewed as extremely greedy, but surely three different Cores for 50+ copies of one Core is fair? Maybe even generous to them?
-[X]"Zyzixion has fireproofing, and as the frontline against Burner Worms that would greatly help us do our duty."
-[X]"Flight would help us fend off the Szumowiny, and is currently outside our wheelhouse, but I notice it is very common in Soissons."
-[X]"I met a Breed who could modulate his voice to not offend the ears of non-Integrated humans. Could you provide anything like that?"
Zyzixion is a homie, she's lived that life, she knows what it's like in the hood.
[X]"It would certainly help if more raw material could make its way to our castle, to cover the costs of growing the required Cores and help us prepare for future conflict with the Commoners."
Raw material is the simplest and most straightforward non-coinage payment. It's therefore the most fungible, and Sabrina just signed Caras up for a responsibility that would otherwise directly affect his ability to wage war. Meat that goes to cores is meat that doesn't go into bodies, which means delaying the war effort by a tax year or more, depending on how much these spare cores will cost.
There's value in new cores, as we saw with how surprising the Suncrawlers were, but that value is expensive meat and time wise. We've seen Caras need time to experiment and understand new cores. Another core trade therefore supports a slow war (or doesn't support the war at all in pursuit of long-term value), but a slow war reduces the value of the new toys Caras just got, which makes a core trade wishywashy. And the war is Caras' job.
I doubt we'd get permission even for non-military jobs. Quevale quoted three reasons for Caras' ban, only one of which relates to military action (casualty rate). Caras' territory just doesn't have the agricultural surplus to support a bureaucracy (Instead that surplus goes to feeding the Heart, I think. If we want to change that then we need a larger surplus, which means clearing the Green Blight for exploitation or developing resources like the Ice Lake or preventing theft.), and he's been clueless about Integration and how to use humans properly. Before we can get Caras and Virmire to build a clerk class, perhaps we should start by building a support base of Integrated humans who can interface between them and other humans effectively. It's also another slow option, but the simplest ways to develop Caras' territory involve 'brute force direct action', which means that development needs meat in the immediate now. There's still plenty of room for Caras to go wide, rather than tall, so he should go wide.
[X]"If the rules on long-term hiring could be relaxed in regard to non-military jobs, that would greatly improve our ability to actually use any funds paid for Cores, as well as improve our ability to develop our territory."
[X]"If the rules on long-term hiring could be relaxed in regard to non-military jobs, that would greatly improve our ability to actually use any funds paid for Cores, as well as improve our ability to develop our territory."
Actually, would non-military jobs include guards, sheriffs, and other law enforcement? They aren't part of the military, but are still armed. I'm mostly asking this because if we were to set-up any sort of costal town, we would want some to defend against Scaled Folk. Having boats would be great for fishing and trading.
This has come up before, and 'armed humans of any kind' only gets a bit of a pass with hunting. (And fishing, though I don't remember if that came up explicitly) Aside the exception that Integrated humans are entirely exempt from this rule. (The stuff that's been done with telling bandits 'go cause trouble somewhere I prefer or I kill you' is riding that line of 'not violating the letter of the law, but probably violating the spirit of it')
Unarmed law enforcement would be theoretically an option, though obviously it has practical problems.
@Ghoul King Can I check if we need to worry about the politics of who we're taking what core types from, on top of figuring out which cores are useful, should we choose that option?
As far as Sabrina knows: yes. She didn't see a comparable thing anywhere in Soissons, or otherwise see evidence of the Council having their own version.
And I should probably explicitly note that Caras and Freewheeling Raptors pretty clearly have bad blood between them.
--------------------------------
'Ask for more meat' is currently winning, though it's only one vote ahead and the other two vote blocks are tied, so this is unusually neck-and-neck. Not that I was going to close the vote so soon anyway, mind. But worth mentioning.
[X]"I think trading Cores for Cores would be more than fair. Say, three types in exchange for our many copies of one type?" Your understanding of Cores suggests that an actual tit-for-tat per Core would be viewed as extremely greedy, but surely three different Cores for 50+ copies of one Core is fair? Maybe even generous to them?
-[X]"Zyzixion has fireproofing, and as the frontline against Burner Worms that would greatly help us do our duty."
-[X]"Flight would help us fend off the Szumowiny, and is currently outside our wheelhouse, but I notice it is very common in Soissons."
-[X]"I met a Breed who could modulate his voice to not offend the ears of non-Integrated humans. Could you provide anything like that?"
