Memoirs of a Human Flashlight [Exalted/Worm]

Ryune said:
Hmmm, could she devise a hybrid system between Tinker and magitech that could derive motes from electricity or a reaction of some kind? Actually that begs the question of just how different Tinker tech would be from Magitech. Magitech follows completely unknown physics and Tinker tech only occasionally does but just how different are they? Would Taylor be able to understand Tinkertech with enough ranks in the required trees?
As I understand it, Tinker tech is simply technology that's far too advanced for modern scientific knowledge to understand or (in most cases) reproduce. It still follows the laws of physics, etc. Or at least, I think that's how it works- I vaguely recall reading something along those lines in one of the early chapters. So in theory, sufficient ranks in regular craft skills should be enough to reproduce it.
 
Nervaqus987 said:
You'd think I'd get less annoyed by this, but I just don't.

Places Stunting works: Creation(and Yu-Shan), Malfeas, The Wyld, Autochthonia, The Underworld.

Places the Pattern Spiders are present: Creation(and Yu-Shan).
Indeed. As far as I know, there's never been a good explanation for how stunting works, beyond "It just does, ok?"
 
NSMS said:
As I understand it, Tinker tech is simply technology that's far too advanced for modern scientific knowledge to understand or (in most cases) reproduce. It still follows the laws of physics, etc. Or at least, I think that's how it works- I vaguely recall reading something along those lines in one of the early chapters. So in theory, sufficient ranks in regular craft skills should be enough to reproduce it.
More or less. It's actually the technologies of advanced alien civilizations encountered by the entities, but it still seems to operate on scientific principles, just really, really complex ones.
 
Ryune said:
Hmmm, could she devise a hybrid system between Tinker and magitech that could derive motes from electricity or a reaction of some kind? Actually that begs the question of just how different Tinker tech would be from Magitech. Magitech follows completely unknown physics and Tinker tech only occasionally does but just how different are they? Would Taylor be able to understand Tinkertech with enough ranks in the required trees?
Tinkertech are more like attuned artifacts that can only be attuned by the Tinker that makes them than anything else in Exalted. By Exalted rules this is a major enough drawback that you can do some pretty amazing stuff with some pretty low artifact/difficulty ratings.
 
Hazard said:
Tinkertech are more like attuned artifacts that can only be attuned by the Tinker that makes them than anything else in Exalted. By Exalted rules this is a major enough drawback that you can do some pretty amazing stuff with some pretty low artifact/difficulty ratings.
Actually, anyone can use Tinkertech. It's just that other users tend to quickly mess them up or break them (often leading explosions or other unpleasantness) due to not instinctively understanding them and any fine tolerances, warning signs, etc.
 
Hazard said:
Tinkertech are more like attuned artifacts that can only be attuned by the Tinker that makes them than anything else in Exalted. By Exalted rules this is a major enough drawback that you can do some pretty amazing stuff with some pretty low artifact/difficulty ratings.
You're kidding, right? Not being able to give it to allies is only dubiously a fair tradeoff for not having to worry about anyone stealing your stuff.
 
I get the impression that Tinkers are actually minor reality warpers more than anything who can only do such when they are making their tech. We know that their devices operate on real science, it's just way too advanced for most people to understand. My guess is that their power basically lets them twist regular objects into forms that take advantage of those principles, whether that be by ridiculously fine tolerances, or simply altering the materials in a slight way to give them certain properties.
 
pheonix89 said:
You're kidding, right? Not being able to give it to allies is only dubiously a fair tradeoff for not having to worry about anyone stealing your stuff.
As the Banner of the Conqueror (Glories: Maidens p.8) makes clear 'attuned by someone else' does not necessarily mean 'not useable by me.' Tinkertech might function similarily.
 
NSMS said:
As I understand it, Tinker tech is simply technology that's far too advanced for modern scientific knowledge to understand or (in most cases) reproduce. It still follows the laws of physics, etc. Or at least, I think that's how it works- I vaguely recall reading something along those lines in one of the early chapters. So in theory, sufficient ranks in regular craft skills should be enough to reproduce it.
This is exactly correct.

Only powers with a Breaker designation actually outright break physics. Spoiler: Tinker tech is just alien technology and scientific knowledge, mixed with a massive boost to technological thinking, ingenuity, and instinct - see Bakuda's rapid work, and making a bomb out of scrap; Bonesaw also demonstrates this in the Riley part of her interlude. Even if the process seems like magic, like with Bonesaw's blood replacement idea, remember that the end result is explicitly technology. Artifacts and Magitech have nothing to do, at least directly, with Tinker tech. They're magic.

Anyone can use Tinker tech, as shown by, well, all the tinker made armor and weapons and devices loaned out to heroes throughout the series.

Tinker tech is constrained by the fact that it requires upkeep and maintenance to stay functioning. Any Tinker can use, and often even maintain any other Tinker's stuff, if they're strong enough. It's just hard, clunky, and they don't understand it as well, plus there's the risk that any patches or modifications they make will make it blow the hell up. See Bonesaw's interlude.

It's also mentioned elsewhere that there are Tinker components and schematics on the web that can be used to build stuff. Additionally, there are Tinker parts that can be used by other Tinkers to build better stuff - it's one of the 'resources' that the PRT offers to Tinkers, in addition to raw materials, tools, etc.

Bakuda's interlude shows that there's "Mass produced" Tinker-tech as a seperate thing from what Masamune does - it's technology that can be manufactured by normal people, due to having mundane little contrivances like screws, and is hardy or simple enough to not need maintenance.
Hazard said:
As the Banner of the Conqueror (Glories: Maidens p.8) makes clear 'attuned by someone else' does not necessarily mean 'not useable by me.' Tinkertech might function similarily.
Of course, trying to use stuff unattuned is an exercise in futility most of the time. An attuned Shortklave that can be swung around like a dagger is an unattuned longsword that's basically identical to Saber's Excalibur in size.
 
A decent explanation for stunting might be that:

A) Essence is just refined Wyld "matter"
B) Wyld matter likes narrative patterns
C) A stunt is a part of a narrative that stands out
D) And thus draws in essence and willpower that can be harvested/used

There's some weird link between essence and willpower that never gets explained well in exalted. You can get willpower from cult and stunting as well as essence, maybe willpower is the essence of free will?

Its important to remember that Exalted's base physics is narrative. Creation uses something sort of close to "real world" physics as an emergent property of a complex system. A large part of what make essence users so powerful is the ability to use the base physics directly (in a limited way).

On another note its highly unlikely that one could get essence from an mundane source, maybe by doing fancy stuff like hyper concentrating lightning, you might be able to get a small amount of Air Essence... Basically what your asking for is a step beyond mass to energy conversions, it will no doubt be practically impossible.
 
5
Everyone is making good points.

The Entity interlude showed us that Tinkers are merely building things and tapping into branches of physics our fleshy three dimensional minds haven't reached yet. They might be 'cheating,' but they are definitely following rules and limits, just they have an extra processing unit on their brain that is keeping track of the math of the bullshit they are pulling if that math cannot be expressed in human terms.

Artifacts (and magitech) require the Magical Materials, which are simply Not Available at the moment. It is POSSIBLE to make Orichalcum or Moonsilver in Creation from their mundane sources; this becomes infinitely less likely on Earth Bet for Moonsilver because there is no Wyld Zone (or if there was no one would understand it as such). For Orichalcum, technically one could make the occult mirrors needed, maybe? But that would require amounts of raw knowledge and ambient essence around to make work, let alone the precise conditions (sun hitting lava) and time/focus (keep said mirrors aimed at the gold melted on the lava for dozens of hours per ounce, or whatever).

Yeah, not likely.

Artifacts can be made via ANY craft discipline; they simply require exotic components of symbolic value and a sliver of legitimate magical material. Some lesser artifacts can get away without legitimate MMs in them, but they are lesser for a reason.

Magitech is a craft discipline all its own, as in, you have to buy the skill Craft(Magitech) up from zero.

The five Big Craft Disciplines are Craft(Fire, Water, Wood, Air, and Earth) - which between the five of them, ostensibly cover every mundane non-engined, non-electrical thing you could possibly make- and their shiny magical equivalents. As soon as you start burning fuel or including circuits, you have technically bypassed the Creation-style limits of the five Crafts.

Note that on Earth Bet, the case could be made that Craft(Fire) could reliably be used to machine all the key parts of an automobile. The internal combustion engine is merely a bunch of very exactly shaped and oiled bits of metal, in the end. In Creation such ideas break down because advanced matter phase-change reactions that are repeated incessantly (the cycling of said engine) will offend gods somehow unless they are appropriately bribed to turn fuel into fire at a particular rate consistently. In other words, the more advanced you try to take mundane physics on a small scale, the more you have to waste energy and time appeasing all of the gods of all of the parts involved such that they keep following the same rules. This is accounted for by Magitech, where the fiat-indestructibility of magical materials means little wear and tear (usually) and the direct feed of energy from Hearthstones means no negotiating for consistent current or voltage.

This line of crazy logic is why building an Atelier-Manse (a factory that rapidly produced copies of a mundane object) in Creation required a four dot manse and ungodly amounts of spiritual infrastructure. Lord help you if you want a Factory-Cathedral that actually rapidly assembles artifacts.

So, yeah. Craft(Magitech) is (thankfully) out of reach. Gods are bastards.

Craft(Genesis), on the other hand, is still on the table. Maybe.

Also, on a more frightening note . . . what about Craft(Armsmaster) or Craft(Kid Win)? Note that Tinkers seem to have their own specialties (Armsmaster's is taking tech and minimizing it, which is how he has such a fancy halberd- it's not that there is anything particularly unique about any aspect of its tech, but it has LOTS of tech all in one blade).

No, I am not currently planning on making Taylor into a godlike uber-supertinker. Note that tinkers in-universe have both the ability to *manipulate* things on a level mundanes can't, and the mental boost to understand it. Craftsman Needs No Tools would only grant Taylor the ability to replicate most mundane tools and techniques; she'd have to progress to the next tier up, "I can craft a blade from the smell of freshly blossomed roses" level of magical tools bullshit to even have a chance of beginning to actually copy or create Tinker tech. Like, the dimension-cutting blade needs a screwdriver slipped between realities to tweak that 4th-dimensional screw. Kid Win can just do that with a screwdriver, but Taylor can't.

Comprehending tinker tech, however, is another story. Fewer things are more helpful that a Solar Crafter peering over your shoulder and giving advice.

As for the applicable power levels . . . well, highest end magitech in Wonders of the First Age gives us crazy powered armor suits with zillions of gadgets. I wonder where we see that kind of thing in Worm? Heh.

Warstriders are another thing altogether, although I wouldn't put it beyond Dragon if there was actually a tactical need for a Really Big Robot.

As I try to brainstorm what the first few waves of her fighting style's evolution will be, I keep mentally drifting back to FFVII: Advent Children. Heh. Only one specific part, though.
 
TheProffesor said:
This is all very interesting, but it doesn't answer a crucial question. What exactly can a Twilight Solar do here? It's clear that her crafting abilities won't put her very high among Tinkers, and I thought that was basically a Twilight's field of expertise in Creation.
They've also got Sorcery to work with.

And narrative use Sorcery(As opposed to mechanics Sorcery) is an awe inspiring thing.
 
TheProffesor said:
Mind elaborating? From what I've heard of sorcery, I thought it was like tactical nukes. Besides, aren't there trials you have to go through first?
Sorcery meant to blow things up is like tactical nukes, yes.

But Sorcery can also be used to transform the world, to create things of permanence, to bring fertility to a barren land, to mend holes in the fabric of the world, to travel vast distances, to summon and bind elementals and demons, and more.

Also the Trials are things that can be gone through without even knowing about them or even intentionally doing so.

Salina may have been bug fuck insane, but she did a good job.
 
TheProffesor said:
Do the Trials have to be done in order? Has Solar Taylor done any of them?
There's no order to the Trials.

Right now, I'm pretty sure that everything she did as part of Exalting could qualify for the Trial of Fear.
Odysseus2099 said:
Assuming that the Salinian Working even applies in the Wormverse.
She used a Miracle Shell. Those extend across all realms of existence, even ones unknown to the caster.

Granted, Golden Lark may be doing something different, so you never know.
 
Odysseus2099 said:
Assuming that the Salinian Working even applies in the Wormverse.
They're supposed to have effected everything you could reach. It didn't get through to Autobot until the seal dropped, but neither did a Solar Shard. If a Shard got here, so has the working, assuming we're sticking to canon.

I tend to think that bit is stupid because it makes cosmic reality warping something casually dropped, rather then something they were still failing to get, even if they were close, at the Usurpation. On the other hand, Sorcery arriving with Taylor shard and it's knock off effect could be some excellent chaos.
 
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