Mandat de l'impératrice des Cieux - Imperial Princess Troubleshooter Space Opera Quest

Second option looks like we are surrounding the entire system with ships with the intention of not letting anyone leave. It might also get risky when someone does want to leave the system immediately and has the firepower to torn a hole through the screen.

And that's why it is a superior plan, we don't want anyone to leave. We have two days to figure out what the hell, which means we either need them all right there, or cause them to panic and start shooting.

Sorry, but its again the cost of going big
 
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Combat Doctrine and Sensors & ECM
Also, to provide everyone with some further food for thought, infodump post on Combat Doctrine and Sensors & ECM.


Combat Doctrine


The prevalence of sophisticated electronic countermeasures (ECM) amongst all parties, even merchant shipping and pirates, means that while long range shots are theoretically possible, it is discouraged as the presence of ECM means that one's target can 1) hide himself from sensors, 2) softkill incoming missiles, and 3) fire active-emitting ECM drones to decoy home-on-jam missiles.

As a general rule, the best way to generate a constant, consistent targeting solution against hostile ECM is to get closer, as the effectiveness of deceptive and defensive ECM decreases as the range between ships gets closer, and radar, lidar, Electro-Optical and Imaging Infrared sensors become more effective the closer you are. By the time a warship is at the range where ECM no longer "cloaks" the opponent, both parties have entered gun range and are trading fire; as a result there is an opinion among many serving naval officers that long-range missiles and BVR combat is more than a little pointless.

Missiles remain a relevant weapon, but warships tend to use missiles as part of a massed missile salvo in close range. More sophisticated milspec missiles can be programmed to act as impromptu mines; lying in space on passive until receiving a launch order or detecting enemy ships. Pirates have, on occasion, used command-detonated missiles as expensive warning shots.

The universality of ECM on all sides means that against peer opponents, both sides will be roughly equally blind and hidden from each other. Combat involves sending screening elements to scout until the main force is found, whereupon the fleet jumps in to engage. The target force will then either give battle, or attempt to get away via tactical jumping (tacjump). This is where DDs come into play; their drives recharge faster so they can chase their foes and data link back to the fleet, giving targeting data so the other ships can try to snipe you with railguns (until their drives cycle and they can tacjump to the enemy and engage in a slugging match).

The exception is during a planetary invasion, during which the opposing force has corvettes and keeps them in the gravity well of a planet. By design, a tacjump into a gravity well is impossible, it will result in the ship bouncing away from the well and drift for a while before it course corrects. For corvettes, this works to their advantage and they are able to make use of the gravity well to prevent opposing elements from closing the distance, while their ECM prevents long range missile and railgun salvoes from connecting.


Sensors and ECM

When fighting peer opponents, enemy ECM is effective enough that you have to get close to get consistent, constant targeting solutions. However, this is when fighting peer opponents.

The mismatch between milspec and civilian-grade equipment is a lot more pronounced. The simplest way to sum up the milspec vs civilian-grade: I see you further before you see me, I hide me better than you hide you.

Top of the line civilian-grade sensors & ECM are equivalent to milspec sensors & ECM roughly 3-4 generations prior. This mismatch becomes even more pronounced because most civilian ships are not running top of the line sensors & ECM, meaning that the average merchantman's first warning of attack is when a warship appears in WVR and opens fire.

Sensor and ECM effectiveness, using peer milspec systems:

At Very Long Range, ECM in deception mode defeats sensors.

At Long Range, sensors can detect that there is something there, but the contact strength is not strong and there is a high probability the system can be tricked into classing the contact as noise.

At Medium Range, sensors can properly detect that there is a contact and track it, and begin to conduct target motion analysis of the contact's kinematic profile. Engagement with railgun is possible but not encouraged. Track quality is not consistent enough for a BVR missile shot.

At Close Range/WVR, sensors can detect the contact and make a class identification based on radar cross-section analysis, and maintain a constant and consistent lock on the target.

As a result, in order to maintain system-wide sensor coverage, serious players will seed their star systems with listening posts.

Furthermore, while it's possible for a ship to hide itself from sensors, it cannot hide its jump signature: it is possible for a sensor node at Long Range to detect jump signature, even if the ECM completely spoofs the sensors.
 
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In short, very Honor Harrington Universe.

[X] Staggered Departure, In Force Arrival. Depart as subunits and converge upon arrival in Egon from multiple vectors
 
I preferer Staggered Departure I actually think that is the least actual attack - like method. Because

a) showing up with not bugfuck force (at the start anyway) is less alarm-causing
a.1) I'm talking more about the sytems before Egon rather than Egon itself.
b) we can make excuses that we are having multiple training cruise (or whatever is the pretext) and is converging on egon as part of the next step in the training (mass training; debrief on how it has gone so far & brief for next phase; break/resuplly before next phase; or whatever is the pretext)

Additionally, it is advantageous because
c) our actual purpose is an actual investigation. This is a bit more literal than normal with 'approaching from multiple angle' but still valid. There could be hints or stuffs needed investigation, not just in Egon itself but in nearby systems. Also if someone heard about our coming and trying to escape/hide in some direction, it easier to catch wind of them

The prevalence of sophisticated electronic countermeasures (ECM) amongst all parties, even merchant shipping and pirates, means that while long range shots are theoretically possible, it is discouraged as the presence of ECM means that one's target can 1) hide himself from sensors, 2) softkill incoming missiles, and 3) fire active-emitting ECM drones to decoy home-on-jam missiles.
Honorverse magic ECM or Gundam magic ECM? :p
 
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[X] Staggered Departure, In Force Arrival. Depart as subunits and converge upon arrival in Egon from multiple vectors.
 
[X] Staggered Departure, In Force Arrival. Depart as subunits and converge upon arrival in Egon from multiple vectors

I like the aesthetic of an entire fleet just appearing in everyone's face without warning.
 
In short, very Honor Harrington Universe.

Honorverse magic ECM or Gundam magic ECM? :p
I feel I should point out that BVR missile duels were already a thing by book 2 of the Honorverse, and that BVR missile duels where people toss hundreds of thousands of missiles at each other are a regular happenstance in the Honorverse. Weber's loving description of missiles being thrown at each other is an often-mocked staple.

If anything, I'm trying to avoid Honorverse style naval warfare, because from a narrative standpoint I don't find it compelling.

Edit: also, ECM in Honorverse did two things; you played with your emissions to mimic different ships (which is also where playing with impeller wedges came into play) and it spoofed incoming missiles.

Deception mode ECM hiding you from sensors, as per what I have here, is essentially an extrapolation of modern work into ECM systems; the Rafale's SPECTRA and F-35's Barracuda ECM suites can essentially tai chi radio waves away and hide you from emitting aircraft radars. This works a lot better against fighter-sized pulse-doppler radars, because of the physics of how legacy radars work, but there is a point when you get close enough and no amount of deception ECM can hide you from your opponent. Which, generally, tends to WVR.
 
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[X] Staggered Departure, Screening Arrival. Depart as subunits, rendezvous at a rally point, and send the CLs to screen before the task force jumps into Egon.

Still voting on this. Also noticed my mistake in my previous post that was replied on voting moratorium period, changed that.
 
I feel I should point out that BVR missile duels were already a thing by book 2 of the Honorverse, and that BVR missile duels where people toss hundreds of thousands of missiles at each other are a regular happenstance in the Honorverse. Weber's loving description of missiles being thrown at each other is an often-mocked staple.

If anything, I'm trying to avoid Honorverse style naval warfare, because from a narrative standpoint I don't find it compelling.
I was talking about Ghost Rider era of ECM actually, Not the status quo ante bellum ECM. I forgot what it capabilities exactly, or even if its Ghost Rider was the right name, but I recall something to the effect of being amazingly effective.

Also IIRC before some jeune ecole Solaris super science missile used to be less effective than broadsides. (probably this early Honorverse what @Rajvik_wolfboy was referring to?)

Anyway, so it was Gundam with battleships instead?

Voting:
[X] Staggered Departure, In Force Arrival. Depart as subunits and converge upon arrival in Egon from multiple vectors
 
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I was talking about Ghost Rider era of ECM actually, Not the status quo ante bellum ECM. I forgot what it capabilities exactly, or even if its Ghost Rider was the right name, but I recall something to the effect of being amazingly effective.

Also IIRC before some jeune ecole Solaris super science missile used to be less effective than broadsides. (probably this early Honorverse what @Rajvik_wolfboy was referring to?)

Anyway, so it was Gundam with battleships instead?
Err, that's not Ghost Rider. Ghost Rider as an overall program was improved missile seekers, untethered decoy drones, Dazzler ECM warheads (high intensity EW burst aka "digital" chaff :V), Dragon's Teeth penetration aids (generates simulated sensor ghosts of incoming missiles to bait point defenses) and multi-drive missiles. Not quite being able to achieve stealth in space. :V

As per my edit to your post, my main inspiration was actually SPECTRA and Barracuda, and the classing of combat ranges as BVR and WVR is actually drawn from the air combat paradigm.

Having said that, I should note that, again, the IN's main fleet base in Takama-ga-Hara, which is shared by the IRG, is Ame-no-Mihashira, sooo......

Anyway basically at Very Long to Medium range, ECM in deception mode works to spoof enemy sensors to hide you; in short range engagement, ECM in defensive mode serves to spoof missile seekers. Even if your ECM could completely tai chi enemy radars (which happened to the USAF in Cope Thunder), that's where the sensor fusion comes into play, and you have your EO and IIR sensors so you can maintain lock the target and savage him with your guns.

(One of the things that the F-35 has going for it is how it can display a composite image to the pilot: you don't just see black and white EO, you see EO, IIR and SAR imagery blended together in a composite image - oh, and you can also remove the "filters" and see the raw image from each sensor type.)
 
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I preferer Staggered Departure I actually think that is the least actual attack - like method.
That's the benefit of the Staggered Departure from Jinko-sei. It lets you have some measure of subtlety and plausible deniability. 25 ships leaving at once are obviously a heavy task force going to invade someone and assert dominance; 6 squadrons departing on independent training cruises is less of an issue and people won't really take much notice of that. Also, we only get Staggered Departure as a provided option because of Daniel's Intelligence specialisation; the idea wouldn't necessarily have occured to the other Adjutants, because 13th Fleet's whole point is to be seen and be visible. So yes, because Daniel is Intel Adjutant and he did the staffwork for this months ago, we can use Staggered Departure to make the movement of 25 ships fly under the radar.

But, I mean. People wanted a Heavy Task Force.

So I gave them a Heavy Task Force.
Adhoc vote count started by Whiskey Golf on Dec 15, 2018 at 10:42 AM, finished with 11 posts and 5 votes.

  • [X] Staggered Departure, In Force Arrival. Depart as subunits and converge upon arrival in Egon from multiple vectors
    [X] Staggered Departure, Screening Arrival. Depart as subunits, rendezvous at a rally point, and send the CLs to screen before the task force jumps into Egon.
 
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[X] Staggered Departure, Screening Arrival. Depart as subunits, rendezvous at a rally point, and send the CLs to screen before the task force jumps into Egon.
 
This is where DDs come into play; their drives recharge faster so they can chase their foes and data link back to the fleet, giving targeting data so the other ships can try to snipe you with railguns (until their drives cycle and they can tacjump to the enemy and engage in a slugging match).
How far/fast do data links work? How far/fast can a ship tacjump?
In practice, if we leave part of our task force outside of Egon's sensor net (possibly between stars), can we remain in contact with them, and how soon can they get to us if we suddenly need them?
 
[X] Staggered Departure, Screening Arrival. Depart as subunits, rendezvous at a rally point, and send the CLs to screen before the task force jumps into Egon.
 
I feel I should point out that BVR missile duels were already a thing by book 2 of the Honorverse, and that BVR missile duels where people toss hundreds of thousands of missiles at each other are a regular happenstance in the Honorverse. Weber's loving description of missiles being thrown at each other is an often-mocked staple.

If anything, I'm trying to avoid Honorverse style naval warfare, because from a narrative standpoint I don't find it compelling.

Also IIRC before some jeune ecole Solaris super science missile used to be less effective than broadsides. (probably this early Honorverse what @Rajvik_wolfboy was referring to?)

Actually you see it discussed in the first book when she is musing about the fleet exercise. And that was what I was talking about. That said, giving credit where due, in any battle, surface or space, (though mostly space), when there is no fighters to be had, it devolves to missiles until it closes to gun range, and once it enters gun range, you are dragged if you are a light combatant.
 
[X] Staggered Departure, Screening Arrival. Depart as subunits, rendezvous at a rally point, and send the CLs to screen before the task force jumps into Egon.
 
[X] Staggered Departure, Screening Arrival. Depart as subunits, rendezvous at a rally point, and send the CLs to screen before the task force jumps into Egon.
 
How far/fast do data links work? How far/fast can a ship tacjump?
In practice, if we leave part of our task force outside of Egon's sensor net (possibly between stars), can we remain in contact with them, and how soon can they get to us if we suddenly need them?
I mean, you *could* do that, otherwise screening would not work, but it's not going to be as responsive and there will be some commo lag. Also, you're going to need warship comms fitout to transmit back to the rest of your fleet: if you take a small group in and its overwhelmed, you're shit out of luck. This isn't like on earth where you can carry a satphone to call anyone in the world.

The capital planet of the Egon system would have the sort of comms you'd need for that, as does the armskote asteroid we're going factfinding at.
Adhoc vote count started by Whiskey Golf on Dec 15, 2018 at 10:55 PM, finished with 24 posts and 13 votes.
 
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[X] Staggered Departure, Screening Arrival. Depart as subunits, rendezvous at a rally point, and send the CLs to screen before the task force jumps into Egon.
 
[X] Staggered Departure, Screening Arrival. Depart as subunits, rendezvous at a rally point, and send the CLs to screen before the task force jumps into Egon.
 
[X] Staggered Departure, Screening Arrival. Depart as subunits, rendezvous at a rally point, and send the CLs to screen before the task force jumps into Egon.
 
[X] Staggered Departure, In Force Arrival. Depart as subunits and converge upon arrival in Egon from multiple vectors.

I like the idea of leaving quietly, but think sending in a screening force first is a bit pointless for our goals and suggests we're expecting to be attacked.
 
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