Mami's Maisonette: Madoka Magica Megathread

Well you see I always saw Homura's magic of timestop working via Homura detaches herself from time and is a step to removing herself from the world, now applied that to were Homura is the world that she is detaching herself from and well the Time magic does not work on things she is connected to, so what does it say when your not connected to yourself.

...? She is connected to herself, though. She's just not connected to her body. There's a difference.

(Also just got to the chapter were Homura asks for her soul to get eaten because she no longer wants to be a magical girl for she has no reason to fight anymore.) If the one wraith was telling the truth about what was going on... well what if where Homura came from witches were what I thought witches are and everywhere else your interpretation of witches is correct?

...What the fuck are you talking about? How does that even slightly follow from what the Wraith said?
 
...What the fuck are you talking about? How does that even slightly follow from what the Wraith said?
Homura's emotions could not be converted into grief cubes, and the dokawraith was as kyubey said she was a great mass of curses, now tell me what is birthed from curses again? what inside of Homura's soul is so different that what was taken from it could not be converted? After all other girls have fallen to wraiths before and this (i believe) has not happened before.
 
Homura's emotions could not be converted into grief cubes, and the dokawraith was as kyubey said she was a great mass of curses, now tell me what is birthed from curses again? what inside of Homura's soul is so different that what was taken from it could not be converted? After all other girls have fallen to wraiths before and this (i believe) has not happened before.

Oh, that. Yea, you're completely misunderstanding. Homura's emotions can't be broken down because it's so powerful. It's not that it's unprocessible but that there's no much. So much that it corrupts and mutates Wraiths.

Additionally, Kyubey describes that the curses inside Majuuka/Wraith-Madoka is a new phenomena, and Homura has lots of Salamander imagery in Wraith Arc.

The implication is that she's already the Devil, but hasn't awakened as such. The Wraiths can't digest her magic because it's that of a god's.
 
I think you mean to say 'to much'
Oh, that. Yea, you're completely misunderstanding. Homura's emotions can't be broken down because it's so powerful. It's not that it's unprocessible but that there's no much. So much that it corrupts and mutates Wraiths.
Interpretation is evil cause its not the amount that she had, although she had alot, its the fact that it is different from anything the wraiths have encountered before.
Additionally, Kyubey describes that the curses inside Majuuka/Wraith-Madoka is a new phenomena
true but witches are birthed from Curses.
and Homura has lots of Salamander imagery in Wraith Arc.

The implication is that she's already the Devil, but hasn't awakened as such. The Wraiths can't digest her magic because it's that of a god's.
Or that Homura is from a different reality and had something in her soul gem that prevents the emotions taken from it from being transformed, witches cause transformations no?
 
....No.

"Homura has a witch inside her" doesn't explain A) Her infinite power corrupting and mutating literally all the Wraiths, to the point that one of them can emulate Madoka's full potential, B) Her salamander symbolism and her magic being compared to a new color (like Sayaka does at I Was Waiting For This Moment), C) Said mutated Wraiths behaving like Witches with Time Stop, or D) The Wraith-Madoka comparing Homura's magic to the same force that overturned the universe once before (Madokami).
 
A) Her infinite power corrupting and mutating literally all the Wraiths, to the point that one of them can emulate Madoka's full potential
Explained as an side effect of Homura's new mental magic.
B) Her salamander symbolism and her magic being compared to a new color (like Sayaka does at I Was Waiting For This Moment)
:confused: explain further please.
C) Said mutated Wraiths behaving like Witches with Time Stop,
how did they act like witches?
D) The Wraith-Madoka comparing Homura's magic to the same force that overturned the universe once before (Madokami).
Wrong, all emotion is comparative to the force that once overturned the universe it is why wraiths hunt down emotions the only thing that stood out to them about Homura's was that she had a massive amount of the emotional energy in the first place which is why the wraiths sent the large one to feast and turn the energy into a safer form (the amount was excepted the fact that they couldn't change it was not, the fact that it changes them is because they cant change it).
 
Explained as an side effect of Homura's new mental magic.

No, the magic being mental has nothing to do with it. The magic is too powerful to digest. Since they can't digest it, the magic twists and distorts them. Since the magic is memory-based, they become caricatures of people's memories.

explain further please.

When Homura gives herself to Majuuka, there's a Salamander sigil under her feet, just like what appears when she becomes Homucifer in that alternate space with Kyubey. When Kyubey analyzes Majuuka, he describes the power inside her as being something that isn't really a curse, but a new phenomena, which is similar to how Sayaka describes Homura's Soul Gem as generating a new 'color' that isn't Hope or Despair.

how did they act like witches?

Killing people? Going out of their way to antagonize people and make them suffer emotionally when normal Wraiths dont want people to feel anything at all?

Wrong, all emotion is comparative to the force that once overturned the universe it is why wraiths hunt down emotions the only thing that stood out to them about Homura's was that she had a massive amount of the emotional energy in the first place which is why the wraiths sent the large one to feast and turn the energy into a safer form (the amount was excepted the fact that they couldn't change it was not, the fact that it changes them is because they cant change it).

You're not following me. I'm pointing out that Majuuka specifically said that Homura's magic, in particular, is something that can overturn the universe in ways normal emotions/magic don't. It can't be digested. The Wraiths are the will of the universe but Homura's will is stronger.
 
It can't be digested.
We established this already we are disagreeing on why It cant be digested.
When Kyubey analyzes Majuuka, he describes the power inside her as being something that isn't really a curse, but a new phenomena
The kyubey of this universe has never seen a Witch before so the things that would make up a witch would look different from anything he has seen before.
The Wraiths are the will of the universe but Homura's will is stronger.
And yet Homura has no will to fight anymore if her will was stronger then the Wraiths her magic would not have been consumed in the first place, her own will is not why the wraiths cant eat the magic, the amount of emotions/magic is not why the wraiths cant change the magic my believe is that Homura's Witch is why the wraiths 'cant' handle her powers. If they are acting more like witches then its because a witch is involved.
 
The kyubey of this universe has never seen a Witch before so the things that would make up a witch would look different from anything he has seen before.

That's irrelevant; Witches are made of Grief, which is something in the Soul Gem he understands and accounts for; what confuses him is that Magical Girls don't Witch out, but instead disappear. He doesn't know how a manifested Witch would behave but he knows what they're made of and how THAT works.

He's calling THIS a new color he doesn't understand, and it's not simply grief or hope; it's a new energy.

And yet Homura has no will to fight anymore if her will was stronger then the Wraiths her magic would not have been consumed in the first place, her own will is not why the wraiths cant eat the magic, the amount of emotions/magic is not why the wraiths cant change the magic my believe is that Homura's Witch is why the wraiths 'cant' handle her powers. If they are acting more like witches then its because a witch is involved.

Yea, Homura has no will after they removed most of her soul from her, go figure. Her willpower has nothing to do with them being able to TAKE the magic, since they can do that to anyone. They're unable to digest her magic.

Look, let me break this down for you. Wraiths are based on Buddhism. Their forms and attacks are named after terms, and they destroy emotions, which represent attachments in Buddhism, creating Desire and Suffering (Hope and Despair). They appear in the form of classical ascetics and are trying to force enlightenment on mankind by destroying their attachments.

Homura's attachments, her emotions and magic, cannot be destroyed. They can't break down her karma, her dharma, her ties to this world. Because the thing her magic is made up of is her attachment to Madoka. Her love for her, her memory of her. Her attachment to Madoka is her selfishness which keeps her from letting go.

And it's so powerful, a Wraith can't digest it.

It's so powerful, she became the Devil.

It's so powerful, that she became Mara, the devil who traps Buddha in an illusion of a happy universe to make him abandon Enlightenment.

It's because of Love that even Homura's pain is precious to her. So no, it's not 'a witch' that grounds Homura. It's the fact that she refuses to let go, and she has karmic associations with GOD HERSELF. Homura entered the new universe with Madoka-tier levels of potential, and doesn't learn how to use it until the end of Rebellion.

She's already the Devil. She's already a godlike reality-warper, and the Wraiths can't handle it.

If they are acting more like witches then its because a witch is involved.

No, it's because Memory Magic is involved. They act like Witches for the same reason a Wraith acts like Madoka, another two act like Mami's parents, and another acted like Sayaka. They're using Homura's memory magic to imitate things in people's memories, and thus they behave like the antagonists Homura remembers: Witches. They're even able to use Time Stop because that's how Homura remembers her powers working.

Come on, dude. You have no case, here. There's no basis for your idea.
 
That's irrelevant; Witches are made of Grief
Witches are made of Curses, a magical girl curses the world when in the depths of despair (aka like how Homura wanted to become a monster to destroy this horrible world) however due to what Madoka is shown to do aka kill the witch and then comfort the girl making sure they can die with their hope intact, kyubey has never seen curses before or rather not what curses can end up being.
Homura's attachments, her emotions and magic, cannot be destroyed. They can't break down her karma, her dharma, her ties to this world.
her attachment to Madoka. Her love for her, her memory of her. Her attachment to Madoka is her selfishness which keeps her from letting go.
Homura has no ties to this world, for madoka is not a part of it, it is why she does not wish to be a Magical girl is beacuse she has no attachments, her emotions are from her view a likely forgery due to the fact that her Mental magic can be used on herself. Her feelings are strong but she has no desire for them because she see's them as fake.
And it's so powerful, a Wraith can't digest it.
It is not the power of the emotions that they cant handle it is that there is something different in the emotions that they cannot handle once again we agree on this we just don't agree on why it is.
Look, let me break this down for you. Wraiths are based on Buddhism. Their forms and attacks are named after terms, and they destroy emotions, which represent attachments in Buddhism, creating Desire and Suffering (Hope and Despair). They appear in the form of classical ascetics and are trying to force enlightenment on mankind by destroying their attachments.
Due to the fact that they are based on Buddhism does not mean that they will follow all the things in Buddhism once again we have different interpretations.
She's already the Devil.
No she 'can' become the 'Devil' not that she already is, she can, time is in motion and it is not a fixed thing, also just to be sure has the wraith arc been excepted as canon or is it just popular fandom?
 
Witches are made of Curses, a magical girl curses the world when in the depths of despair (aka like how Homura wanted to become a monster to destroy this horrible world) however due to what Madoka is shown to do aka kill the witch and then comfort the girl making sure they can die with their hope intact, kyubey has never seen curses before or rather not what curses can end up being.

Curses ARE Grief. 'Curse' and 'Grief' and 'Despair' are all synonyms in PMMM's terminology. Kyubey says that Sayaka's Soul Gem is filling with curses, and also with despair, at different points in the original anime. You can't deny this point.

Homura has no ties to this world, for madoka is not a part of it, it is why she does not wish to be a Magical girl is beacuse she has no attachments, her emotions are from her view a likely forgery due to the fact that her Mental magic can be used on herself. Her feelings are strong but she has no desire for them because she see's them as fake.

She does though, because she's specifically attached to the memory of Madoka the human, who existED in this world, and specifically idealizes her memory of their first meeting and insists that Madoka's place is in the human world, living as a human, enjoying earthly happiness.

It's because of her attachment to the world that she thinks it's better for both of them to be HERE instead of in the Law of Cycles. She's attached to the past and unable to move on. That's the definition of dharma.

It is not the power of the emotions that they cant handle it is that there is something different in the emotions that they cannot handle once again we agree on this we just don't agree on why it is.

And I'm telling you the reason why that is. It's because Homura's magic is too strong for them. Because she's the Devil. There's exclusive Devil symbolism when Homura's magic is used, man.

Due to the fact that they are based on Buddhism does not mean that they will follow all the things in Buddhism once again we have different interpretations.

If a monster looks like a buddhist allergory, is named after Buddhist terms, and behaves like an evil buddhist monster, it's a pretty strong argument. My interpretation is backed by the text and yours isn't. Try again.

No she 'can' become the 'Devil' not that she already is, she can, time is in motion and it is not a fixed thing, also just to be sure has the wraith arc been excepted as canon or is it just popular fandom?

Wraith Arc is specifically an official interquel between the original anime and Rebellion, so it is canon. And when I say Homura is the Devil, I mean that the powers of the Devil already exist inside her.

Wraith Arc is strongly implying Homura had this power all along, and that it didn't come out of nowhere in the last 15 minutes of Rebellion.

We also know from Tart Magica that a Magical Girl's potential, and thus her powers and strength, can change after the contract is made and is not fixed in place, so the implication here is that Homura's direct karmic ties to the creator of the current universe (and in fact wished to be strong enough to protect her) makes her stupidly powerful. You can't protect God if you're not stronger than her.
 
It seems this is a back and forth conversation in which neither side will budge. On the bright side, I'm glad to see people finally acknowledging the existence of Wraith Arc and discussing it. I guess I'll give my opinion and interpretation on certain events and details in it.

It's been implied several times throughout Wraith Arc that since Homura was dropped off in the new universe, that she has always had the potential to become the Devil, although the reasons of why she would be able to now of all times is something I'm not sure of. I would say that it's a combination of her having a direct connection with Madoka (who previously overturned the universe) via her wish and her being a foreign entity to the new universe. It may also be that her innate magic (emotional energy that the Wraiths can't digest) has swelled because her old wish for Madoka is still active, leading to the possibility of her overturning the Law of Cycles if she counted it as protecting Madoka. It could be some of them, a combination of all of them, or none of them, but I won't take complete sides with the theories until the Wraith Arc manga is done.

Moving onto the next topic, the Wraiths. I actually like the concept of the Wraiths a lot, even if they're quite benign compared to Witches outside of aberrations shown in the manga. Basically, the universe was destroyed and rewritten by a 14 year old girl due to the Magic of a wish, which can be summed up as emotions as Magic is emotion. So, as a sort of way to prevent this from happening again, the universe decided to have Wraiths be a countermeasure, as their job is to take the emotions of people and put it in a compact safe form. Obviously, as shown with Wraith Arc with Homura's emotions not being consumable and the conclusion of Rebellion with the universe being rewritten again, its attempts were for naught, but it's still something I really like. Their ability to take the magic of a Magical Girl and essentially reduce the maximum capacity of their Soul Gem makes them pretty deadly, especially since Kyubey in Chapter 4 states that he's never heard of a Magical Girl who recovered her powers by defeating the Wraith that drained them, meaning it's possible that the damage may be permanent.

We also know from Tart Magica that a Magical Girl's potential, and thus her powers and strength, can change after the contract is made and is not fixed in place
Huh, did not know that. I've only read up to Volume 2.
 
Homu is too spicy for Yog-Sototh, and had an equal or greater karmic weight to Meduka while being the only one to know about the system. Thus, the ability to become the Devil.

Also, she was a nosehair's breadth away from Witching Out before she was Friendzoned By God, so even with a bunch of Grief Cubes, she was probably holding a lot of despair Ls in her chest. Couple that with the emotional powder keg that kept her going, and shit was bound to explode sometime.
 
Homura Theories
If there's one thing I'd like to talk about, it is the early theories on who Homura is and as well as her power.

One I find interesting is that some theorized that Homura was Madoka's future self.

There was also that speculation that Homura's power was near godlike.
Article:
Referred to as Spatial Reconstruction Magic (空間再構成魔法 Kūkan Sai-kōsei Mahō) by Asian fans. In plain language, a user of this class of magic temporarily becomes the 'goddess' of a limited domain of space, gaining the ability to change, create, or destroy objects within it -- including distances and spatial coordinates. Humans appear to be shielded from manipulation to a degree, though their position may still be freely rearranged. Distinct from the 'object modification' described in the Material Magic section above -- where the qualities of an existing tool or implement are reinforced as it temporarily undergoes a highly stylized transformation -- inanimates affected by Spatial Reconstruction experience a permanent, unstylized alteration.

Speculah regarding Spatial Reconstruction began to surface after Homura intervened in the confrontation between Sayaka and Kyoko in Episode 5: Viewer discussion concluded that the complete redrawing of the wall layout, the floor, and the lighting in the background art following Homura's use of 'teleportation' was suspiciously unnecessary -- it would have been far easier for the animation staff to reuse previously completed artwork. If this was not in fact a production error, the theory followed that the ability used by Homura to save Sayaka may have been something on the order of reconstructing the space within the corridor, rather than mere teleportation or the use of a 'Time Bubble.' It should be noted that the alteration of the wall is presented unchanged in the scene recap at the beginning of Episode 6.

Outside the context of theory, Witches and their Familiars canonically employ magic within the spectrum of Spatial Reconstruction in the manifestation of their Labyrinths. Movement subjectively experienced by persons drawn into a Witch's Labyrinth does not necessarily indicate or overlap any analogous travel within 'real' space; observed space within a Witch's domain comprises thus of 'spoofed coordinates.' Ergo, the manipulation of the position or lay of objects in a given space figures fundamentally into the magical repertoire of a typical Witch. The 'cartoonization' attack used by H.N. Elly and her Familiars against Madoka may classify an offense implementation of Spatial Reconstruction.
 
If there's one thing I'd like to talk about, it is the early theories on who Homura is and as well as her power.
There was also that speculation that Homura's power was near godlike.
Homura, I always thought had some form a basic dimensional magic, aka detaching herself from time and storing things in a pocket world. However she lacks the power to freely remake the world around her (in the anime) otherwise she would have been able to beat Walpurgisnacht long ago.
The biggest problem with theorizing about how Homura powers are is that if the ability is to strong then why was she unable to ever beat Walpurgisnacht
 
Homura, I always thought had some form a basic dimensional magic, aka detaching herself from time and storing things in a pocket world. However she lacks the power to freely remake the world around her (in the anime) otherwise she would have been able to beat Walpurgisnacht long ago.
The biggest problem with theorizing about how Homura powers are is that if the ability is to strong then why was she unable to ever beat Walpurgisnacht
Yeah, it is very tricky. Time Stop is a powerful ability but only because of its utility, not its power. Any other power that seems to be similar kinda starts to fall apart since why didn't she defeat walpurgisnacht that way. Also I guess people were focusing too much on sheer power then rather what makes sense.
 
Homura, I always thought had some form a basic dimensional magic, aka detaching herself from time and storing things in a pocket world. However she lacks the power to freely remake the world around her (in the anime) otherwise she would have been able to beat Walpurgisnacht long ago.
The biggest problem with theorizing about how Homura powers are is that if the ability is to strong then why was she unable to ever beat Walpurgisnacht

Because at the time, people didn't know Homura was a time traveler, or how Walpurgis worked, or what Homura's motives were.
 
Time Stop is a powerful ability
It also requires a lot of power to stop time, enough that channeling that power into a brute force attack would probably level the city.
Also I guess people were focusing too much on sheer power then rather what makes sense.
These were early theories before people learned of the whole situation. Cant blame them for not taking all the facts in the anime considering when theses ideas happen before said info is available.
Edit: :ninja:
 
It also requires a lot of power to stop time, enough that channeling that power into a brute force attack would probably level the city.

No, it doesn't. Homura isn't enchanting the rest of the universe, she's enchanting herself to be infinitely fast.

Or rather, she's stepping to the left of the timestream, walking sideways in linear time for a finite amount, then having all that causality compound back into the timeline at once.

She's only enchanting herself, because her magic is a crystallization of her inability to move on and face the future.
 
Or rather, she's stepping to the left of the timestream, walking sideways in linear time for a finite amount, then having all that causality compound back into the timeline at once.

She's only enchanting herself, because her magic is a crystallization of her inability to move on and face the future.
aka detaching herself from time
I am aware however Homura is not 'Stopping time' however in terms of power what she is doing is far less energy hogging as a true Time stop would be.
 
Um...Yea, and? It wouldn't be enough to level a city or anything (That's not even how magic works).
 
...Not really. Magic works by turning emotions into physical outcomes, and thus energy. That energy cannot be freely used for any purpose, but only what the emotions reflect and thus program into it. Homura's Time Stop works by literally stopping her own clock. She is ambulatory and still has personal time, but her personal universe is frozen. She stops time by refusing to walk even a second further into the future, and thus can explore a frozen universe.

The only energy that really takes is the effort needed to turn an hourglass on its side, and to dig in your heels and refuse to be pushed forward by the advancing river of time. Her magical effort and energy is just standing her ground in stubbornness.

It's not really that much power; it's just that she takes corruption the longer she's in Timestop since it's an ongoing effect.
 
I am aware however Homura is not 'Stopping time' however in terms of power what she is doing is far less energy hogging as a true Time stop would be.
How do you know that a "true timestop" would be very energy-hogging?

Let's imagine time as a fourth dimension where one has a location and a momentum like we do in the other three, with the difference that everyone has the same momentum in the Time (barring slight alterations at extreme speeds). In this case, all stopping time would need would be to slow your own movement through time until it stopped, and cost little more than braking a car would. Now, since restarting time doesn't seem to cost energy, we would have to assume that there is a natural pull towards a certain temporal speed, but that is just essentially the equivalent of terminal velocity for a free-falling object, so it wouldn't neccesarily impact the time-stop itself much.
This would also account for Homura's PSP Clock Up Skill, by similarily decreasing her temporal speed to move faster.

This is of course all speculation based on something that by all accounts is impossible in real life (provided Homura has actual time-stop and not just infinite super-speed).
However, if we look at The World from JoJo (which is admittedly about as far from PMM you can get), we see that DIO and Jotaro found stopping time relatively easy, and ran into most of their problems when they tried actually moving within the frozen time. Which would put the energy-cost not at the time-stop level, but at each individual action taken within the time-stop.
 
This is of course all speculation based on something that by all accounts is impossible in real life (provided Homura has actual time-stop and not just infinite super-speed).
However, if we look at The World from JoJo (which is admittedly about as far from PMM you can get), we see that DIO and Jotaro found stopping time relatively easy, and ran into most of their problems when they tried actually moving within the frozen time. Which would put the energy-cost not at the time-stop level, but at each individual action taken within the time-stop.
Well there are 2 ways to truly time stop
1. Is to prevent everything around you from effecting you including time itself now there is a problem with this but the biggest is well I shall get to it later.
2. Just simply stop time effect on you.
It sounds as if DIO and Jotaro go with the second way cause with everything no longer effecting them they have to spend massive amounts of energy to get things done (like moving the air out of the way due to the fact that it stops moving along with everything else.

Now the biggest problem with number one has to do with momentum and to sum it up 'How fast are you moving?'
 
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