[X] The Gods themselves, who saw it fit to dispatch Ares to cut Antipater down for their ownpurposes [-10 Civic Tradition for five years, the Gods see something wrong with our great city].

So long as the Messapi occupy the lands to the south we can not make do without a solid alliance. Thus we must preserve our relationship with Metapontion despite their failings.
 
When the Metapontion generals mentioned Herodion had contempt for the rules of war, was his time among the Numidian cavalry and locals really such a departure from traditional engagements go Greek to Greek? Or are they being overly critical because of the involvement of the Pueketii and Eretria?
 
When the Metapontion generals mentioned Herodion had contempt for the rules of war, was his time among the Numidian cavalry and locals really such a departure from traditional engagements go Greek to Greek? Or are they being overly critical because of the involvement of the Pueketii and Eretria?

Mercenary captains who are also the leaders and generals of Greek cities are very rare among Democratic cities. Mercenaries in general are relatively rare among Greeks in this period, when it comes to Greek mercenaries. The main Greek fielder of mercenaries, is, well, Syrakousai.
 
[X] The Gods themselves, who saw it fit to dispatch Ares to cut Antipater down for their own purposes [-10 Civic Tradition for five years, the Gods see something wrong with our great city].
 
When the Metapontion generals mentioned Herodion had contempt for the rules of war, was his time among the Numidian cavalry and locals really such a departure from traditional engagements go Greek to Greek? Or are they being overly critical because of the involvement of the Pueketii and Eretria?

All of the above? Greeks and the rest if the Med world don't need an excuse to start shit.
 
[X] The Gods themselves, who saw it fit to dispatch Ares to cut Antipater down for their own purposes [-10 Civic Tradition for five years, the Gods see something wrong with our great city].
 
He said that he foresaw the sun rising after the end of a mighty battle, the field smeared with the blood of the ox.
"There will be a victory."
Young wives and smiling mothers learned how to weep for the first time as they wished their men the best of luck. Some issued stern, spartan warnings that they ought to come back with their shield or not at all, and then giggled and kissed their young husbands, unable to maintain the joke, holding them close. Then the army departed, leaving the city by the south gate, and marching onto the road.
This entire segment is the greek equivalent of announcing your retirement and displaying a picture of your family.
Metapontion greeted the Eretrians with curiosity and fanfare, and with its position further away from the frontier, was more inquisitive than afraid of the barbaroi. Citizens streamed out of the city to speak to and fraternize with their Eretrian allies, and the army of Metapontion and its strategos Lykos Demetrion met them with much happiness. Herodion and Lykos spoke about a common strategy, and in his understanding and authoritative way of speaking Herodion greatly impressed Lykos, who listened to his every word with rapt audience. However, many of the Metapontine generals were less happy, and were frustrated with Lykos' interest in Herodion's authority, attacking his expertise or questioning his claimed successes. They said that every word from an Eretrian's mouth was questionable, and they cited the Battle of the Fifty Masts as evidence. Lykos apologized for their behavior, but still they persisted, causing Herodion to break out into a tremendous speech that citizens gathered around to hear, explaining the victories of Eretria. Still, however, the generals sneered, and Kallias, who was with the camp, informed Herodion that there was vicious political competition in Metapontion for the post of strategos, and that the reigning Proboulos had opposed Lykos, who was claimed to be an inexperienced and populist commander, better with speech than spear.
It must be emphasized that this isn't even the city as a whole. It's just a single-digit number of assholes fucking around for political gain. Well, they chose the wrong horse for their chariot,
Herodion allowed Harpos to unleash the Peuketii against them, however, and they were soon dispatched, their cavalry and skirmishers inferior to that of the Peuketii. Lykos was much impressed again, and spoke briefly with Harpos, who happily granted him audience and discussed military matters in fluent Ionian Greek.
Hah, behold the superiority of the Ionian! Even our Barabaroi are better than yours!
Unprepared for a direct attack, the Krotonian and Lokrian cavalry began to retreat back, and when the fast horses of the Peuketii caught up them, began to die in large numbers. Others scattered off the field. However, this mattered little to Krotone or Lokri, who maintained their attack in the thought that the cavalry battle was a sideshow. They would be wrong.
And thus cav dominance is achieved.
At the same time, the Ekdromoi led up the left flank, the Hoplites in the center. Antipater was confident, but Eutropios moreso, and he pushed the Ekdromoi ahead of the Hoplites in order to immediately pressure and push the Krotonians back. The lines crashed, and the Krotonians were taken aback by the speed and mobility of the Ekdromoi, who quickly began to encircle their flank and attack their weak side. Elite warriors, the Ekdromoi despite their less intimidating and armored appearance performed extraordinarily, keeping the heavy hoplites back with their longer and lighter spears and inflicting casualties on the brash Krotonians who tried to rush ahead and stab the less armored Ekdromoi.
Krotone: "WHY DOES YOUR INFANTRY HAVE THAT CHARGE BONUS?"
Antipater would not return home a hero, he would not be among friends. Instead, because of the cruelty of war, the cruelty of men, he would die.
Like I said, retirment and family photo.
On one hand, this gave us a 2 to 1 casualty ratio. On the other, the people of these cities may well be less willing to rout in the future, knowing what awaits them.
After the battle it would be revealed that a Metapontine general had ignored the request and sent the messenger back. With no reinforcements and a growing demoralization, the Eretrian line buckled and then gave way under the Krotonians. They were beginning to rout.
WOW. Even while I agree that their city as a whole cannot be blamed, a general just literally BETRAYED HIS OWN TROOPS HERE. If they are willing to risk alienating their allies and causing a battle to which thousands of their own citizens are committed to end in a rout for their side all to embarrass an elected leader, then holy shit they are desperate.
For once it had been heard that Antipater had been killed, a wailing cry broke out among the Kleos Exoria and the Ekdromoi, and they committed themselves to avenging him upon the enemy with such brutality as had been visited upon the barbaroi. Even once the Metapontines stopped, and Rhegion stopped, Eretria continued, running down the enemy, trampling them beneath their hooves, spears and goring soldiers who tried to run. The terror was much noted afterwards, and Eretria was feared and hated in Krotone and Lokri.
On one hand, 2 to 1 casualty/captive ratio. On the other, good luck breaking these guys again now they know what happens if they lose.




[X] The Gods themselves, who saw it fit to dispatch Ares to cut Antipater down for their own purposes [-10 Civic Tradition for five years, the Gods see something wrong with our great city].

Metapontion failed AFTER Antipater died. That said, I do think it's important to have a decent number of votes blaming the Metapontion generals, because I can't see what happened after that as anything other than a blatant attempt to have us disgraced and killed.
 
[X] The Gods themselves, who saw it fit to dispatch Ares to cut Antipater down for their own purposes [-10 Civic Tradition for five years, the Gods see something wrong with our great city].
 
Metapontion failed AFTER Antipater died. That said, I do think it's important to have a decent number of votes blaming the Metapontion generals, because I can't see what happened after that as anything other than a blatant attempt to have us disgraced and killed.

Actually, for all that people have made good arguments as to why we should blame the gods, and it does seem to be the most rational choice, I'm going to change my vote to:

[X] Metapontion, who was unwilling to aid Eretria's best man in his time of need [Metapontion will take this as an insult, and although it will not break the alliance, relations will be strained].

Because people are pissed. Reason and long term considerations take a backseat to rage here.
 
"At Lokri the ships are met with considerable fanfare and given a bit of spectacle once the Lokrians discover that only is Eretrea ionian, but is is also a democracy. They host Eusebios pleasantly until he mentions Krotone, which sours the mood. Unable to hold the amiable sailor too much to his words, however, they decide to send him on his way after providing him enough information to garner that on the other side of the coast they have settled two colonies, Hipponion and Medma, which while nominally independent follow their mother city in lockstep. Eusebios takes the time in Lokri to visit the nearby city of Kaulonia, one of the few remaining independent cities in this portion of Magna Graecia, and then pauses to see what he will do next."

How quickly friends turn into foes, and foes into friends. What a twisted web the Fates weave!
 
[X] Metapontion, who was unwilling to aid Eretria's best man in his time of need [Metapontion will take this as an insult, and although it will not break the alliance, relations will be strained].
 
[X] The Gods themselves, who saw it fit to dispatch Ares to cut Antipater down for their own purposes [-10 CivicTradition for five years, the Gods see something wrong with our great city].
 
[X] The Gods themselves, who saw it fit to dispatch Ares to cut Antipater down for their own purposes [-10 Civic Tradition for five years, the Gods seesomething wrong with our great city].
 
What worries me about the Gods vote is that we start to worry if we did something wrong. Considering how many unusual changes we have done, this may cause a push to reverse those changes and return to a more traditional state.
 
Well, the first year went well. We had to march all the way to Rhegion, but I have to admit that such a decisive first battle was only possible by bringing 80% of our levy. For my vote:
[X] The Gods themselves, who saw it fit to dispatch Ares to cut Antipater down for their own purposes [-10 Civic Tradition for five years, the Gods see something wrong with our great city].

What worries me about the Gods vote is that we start to worry if we did something wrong. Considering how many unusual changes we have done, this may cause a push to reverse those changes and return to a more traditional state.
But, didn't we do something wrong? I mean our hoplites in this update were described as subpar. Its not really the fault of Metapontion that our hoplites proved weaker than those of mighty Krotone. While I like our focus on cavalry tactics, which is much more important in southern Italy than in Greece, I think we should take this as a sign that our infantry needs even more work.
You are right that a return to traditional hoplite warfare would be bad, but I for one see this as the first of many, long and arduous, steps to further reform our infantry. The Ekdromoi were a good first step, but Hypaspists, Sarissas and many other tactical/'formation-based' innovations await us.
 
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[X] The Gods themselves, who saw it fit to dispatch Ares to cut Antipater down for their own purposes [-10 Civic Tradition for five years, the Gods see something wrong with our great city].

I see no single dault in any one person.
 
[X] The Gods themselves, who saw it fit to dispatch Ares to cut Antipater down for their own purposes [-10 Civic Tradition for five years, the Gods seesomething wrong with our great city].

Fellow Citizens, I, Sideros, would speak.
We have lost mighty Antipater, the indefatigable Ox of Eretria, taken from us by merciless Ares on the field of war. But not for his failure, but for ours!!
Too long we have faced barbaroi, foes lacking in arete and the ability to stand in battle and face us as men. They crumbled, and thus the swift killers of our Ekdromoi and our cavalry have brought us victory again and again, and thus by drill and experience we have honed them to be the sharp edge of our warmaking.
But I am a smith, and I tell you that a sharp edge must have a solid backing, a spine that can take the rigours of war, the furious clash of blades, without bending or breaking in the press. It is to remind us of this truth, that the Gods have plucked mighty Antipater from us, to teach us that to rely upon one man to be the spine of the phalanx is folly, that we must work and temper each hoplite, every one of us, to be part of a strong spine, that each of us must become as Antipater, an indefatigable Ox of Eretria, able to bear the burdens of war and carry us to victory!
 
[X] The Gods themselves, who saw it fit to dispatch Ares to cut Antipater down for their own purposes [-10 Civic Tradition for five years, the Gods see something wrong with our great city].
 
What worries me about the Gods vote is that we start to worry if we did something wrong. Considering how many unusual changes we have done, this may cause a push to reverse those changes and return to a more traditional state.
Or, if Ares came down to specifically murder Antipater, only for the tide of battle to stunningly reverse in our favor, might it not be that Ares disapproves of the actions of Antipater?
 
@Cetashwayo, a question...several questions to you.

Is a 'take no prisoners, war to the hilt' approach going to horrify all our allies and enemies, an example of which we just gave to the Krotones?

Would this encourage what I would call a...Japanese-like no surrender, fight to the death fervor among any opponents of ours once they learned Eretrians are on the field?

Comparatively speaking, are we the WW2 Japanese of this pan-Greek war?
 
[x] Metapontion, who was unwilling to aid Eretria's best man in his time of need [Metapontion will take this as an insult, and although it will not break the alliance, relations will be strained].
 
[X] Metapontion, who was unwilling to aid Eretria's best man in his time of need [Metapontion will take this as an insult, and although it will not break the alliance, relations will be strained].
 
What worries me about the Gods vote is that we start to worry if we did something wrong. Considering how many unusual changes we have done, this may cause a push to reverse those changes and return to a more traditional state.

Oh vey. You crystallised my fear about the Gods Fault option too. Reverting into something Eretria is not and changing its unique lithocracy scares me.
 
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