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Magna Graecia: Victory's Children (A City State Quest)

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Without going into ''we are impregnable'' territory a stone wall would be hard to overcome for Lapgives or other local barbarians (in the modern, not Greek, sense of the term), who probably don't have much siegemaking tradition.

Against Taras or Korinth its obviously gonna be something else but I'd say that, without making us invulnerable, it does make us quite more secure overall.
 
Cetashwayo said:
we're so impregnable
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I was referring to those we were most likely to fight. The Dauni couldn't siege us very well, nor could the Illyrians or the Messappii, the Tarentines might but they would struggle quite a lot I think, long supply lines and our fleet is adequate enough to prevent full encirclement by them.

I know Athens or Sparta or Syrakuse could kick our arse, but in Epulia? In Eastern Italy and the Adriatic? We'd be one tough nut.
 
I wonder which enemy that would want to attack us now that has the capability of blockading us at sea and besieging us on land. There is the matter of increased Corinthian trade with Arpus, which could lead to a concerted effort later, but it's not like these two parties don't have anything else to worry about.

I say, we need to keep steady. We need a steady hand to steer the stately ship.
 
Indeed it does, which is why it's such an important thing with many different options. But bragging around about what is a fairly standard stone wall in this period, if thicker than usual if you take that option, is hardly going to get you anything :V

Walls in this period are not especially advanced, because siegecraft is not. It's based around blockades and starving the enemy and treachery. Attempts at siege engines were embryonic and perfunctory during the Peloponnesian War, and then siegecraft rapidly accelerates to the point of Alexander's ability to break even fortified islands. Much of the experimentation of better siegecraft takes place in Sicily, where many of these techniques of breaking walls rather than wills emerges during the brutal Sicilian-Carthaginian wars of the turn of the 4th century BCE.
 
phil03 said:
We receive enough news as it is, we know the Enetoi are not doing great but are still alive, we know of the nature and the strategy of the Liburni around there. I doubt sending Kallias there would do much. Sending even a portion of the fleet there isn't gonna produce any great battle, the Liburni are already cautious and moving into pack of raiders, going where the main fleets isn't and attacking traders. Sending a portion of the fleet in the North Adriatic will only make them less willing to accept open battle, while costing us a bunch of money and leaving the city more vulnerable then it already is, hence why Eusebios is against the idea too.

As for new allies at sea in the area, I have said it before: they're is none of worth to be found. The Enetoi and the local greeks are already fighting and the forces of the Padanan Etruscans at sea where pretty minimal historicaly (the Liburnians would have been toasted long ago otherwise) and I don't see any reasons for it to change. There is no point wasting Kallias time by having him chase potential allies who just don't exist.

I didn't argue for involving Hellas but we must recognise that they are the only ones around with the muscles to force a confrontation with the Liburnians and be sure to crush them (the athenians where as good at sea then the spartans where on land so even a small fleet of them is quite formidable by the standart of the area). At this point, the smartest thing is to accept they're is no easy solution, stay vigilent and get the wall in place. Once that's done then we will see.
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We've been getting this information mostly as either rumors or after the fact stuff, which is not what I'd really want to plan an intervention off of if it came to that. And as said before, if they suffer "the big one" and lose then that's going to be the end of that as far as trading goes so then we'll be flying blind on happenings in that part of the Adriatic.

We have a tremendous opportunity here because we did end up with a huge conflict with the Liburni and trashed them and gave everyone else a breather that they were able to take advantage of to raid the Liburni and punish them. Now the Liburni are re-asserting themselves and their old ways, and that's intolerable. Establishing closer ties in an anti-piracy league of sorts would allow us to share critical information about where pirates are and in what numbers so that appropriate forces can be diverted to defend against and destroy that enemy of humanity; this lull in horrible conditions is why we're seeing ahistorically heavy Greek colonization of the area at this time which is benefitting us tremendously as well as enough trade and info to make us feel like a player in events so far as Sicily instead of being the hopelessly isolated frontier settlement we started as. We can turn our eyes back to Greek civilization, ignore the warnings and just wall up while trade and tidings trickle until the pirates finally bother coming for us, but I'd prefer to be the architects of a nearer Euxine Sea.

Additionally, you say that the pirates are just going to hide from any large fleet. How is it that they'll hide from local naval powers sharing info with each other with leaner strike forces but they'll be caught by grand forces from far away Athens operating on the rumors of traders, assuming that we haven't lost those guys?
 
McLuvin said:
100 extra isn't so bad when you realise that we'd still have nearly 200 left in the Sacred Treasury, before we gain our money next turn, which would solve most of the issues with money you seem to be worried about.

When it comes to 'longest time to get the benefits', you are in fact correct, but the result of that delay is extremely enhanced as the city becomes virtually impossible to conquer when we consider the fact the walls will prevent land and sea invasion and sieges can only last a year at this point in history (which means we can outlast any enemy army with ease and only have to worry about treachery in the city itself as a threat). On the topic of getting attacked soon, I'm not so sure, the situation in the north won't affect us for years yet, The Ligurians are, by Herodions estimate, several years away from being bold enough to attack Eretria, and next year we can send Kallias to Athens and solve the Korinthian issue, giving us more security in the Adriatic. Next turn there will be an Alliance with another Greek state to threaten the Messappii from the West, and the Messappii have signed a solid peace treaty with us already, so that's not a major issue. Arpus has egg on his face now and can't cross the river any longer, he has been shown to be weak and has lost all influence in our Vassals. He won't be bold enough to cause issues for a while, and even then we still have the wooden wall, which will only be taken down in sections not all at once, giving us some defenses just in case.

Overall the fact of the matter is the arguments against the Super Wall do not outweigh the potential benefits and the worrying about cash is misguided, as that issue isn't actually so bad as it may seem to some.
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I'll say it again, then: dipping into the Sacred Treasury is Serious Business. We are only doing this because we can justify this expense as a pressing military emergency, because the amount is small, and because we are paying it back immediately. The Sacred Treasury is an emergency reserve that we may be using very shortly as people decide to strike us while we're vulnerable.

We're cutting it very fine as it is: four years is honestly too long already. The Liburnians aren't likely to obediently sit there and wait for us to finish the walls before they try and raid the city, and neither are the Dauni. Every year we wait for our defenses to be complete is escalatingly more dangerous, because it gives our enemies more time to react to our vulnerability. That's why I want to send the xenoparakletor north: we're about to become much more difficult to attack and our enemies might feel pressed to take advantage of our defenses before they get tougher. The Enetoi like us and are fairly useful allies with a common enemy; let's leverage that into a force that can break the Liburnians and stand against the Korinthoi if need be.

Ideally we'd just build the wall ASAP, but we need sea defenses and we need the ability to expand and plan for that expansion. The citadel walls, on the other hand, aren't necessary. The bonuses are nice but marginal and the opportunity cost is high.
 
Kipeci said:
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Since launching an intervention at the moment is a bad idea (I asked our admiral earlier) they're is no need for super precise information as of yet. Enough to keep an eye on it is sufficient and we have that. Besside, the delays between Kallias coming back from the north, then us planning and sending an expedition, will make the more precise bits of info he had guathered as outdated and imprecise then the rumours we have.

I did read the first part and they're is a massive difference with the Battle of the Fifty Masts and the present situation. Back in the days the Liburnians went in mass, essentially allowing for a massive battle to occur. The info we have on their tactics at the moment show that they are unlikely to repeat that and the idea of anti-piracy league with information sharing run into the same obstacles then Kallias getting info: the delays in sharing make it outdated. The info we have on their tactics also show that a ''big one'' the Enetoi would lost is unlikely to happen since the Liburnians aren't in the business of offering ''big ones'' at the moment.

To end the Liburnians without them going for the big battle would necessitate going for there cities with naval assaults without destroying their naval forces beforehans. The Korinthians could pull it out because they have the numbers and an Athenian squadrong could pull it off because in term of quality its leaps and leagues above anyone else in the Med Sea (the gap is maybe not too large with Carthage but even then) let alone the Adriatic. We are neither.

I also believe the whole ''if the Liburni come back we are all dead'' is rather exagareted. The classical era, and even the centuries before, saw some serious commerce in the Adriatic despite them only being beaten by Dionysus of Syracuse at the end of the 5th century BC.

Despite that I'm all for taking care of them but I don't see any way to attempt to do so that would have some serious chances of immediate success and isn't too risky. I look at the situation in the North and I don't see what Kallias could concretely do that would make much of a difference for the moment.
 
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[X] USER MOTION Harpos shall be King of the Peuketti, but at the hand of Eretria. He shall be elevated in a ceremony at Eretria a year hence, allowing him time to address the fears of the people of Rhyps, where he will reswear his oaths of allegiance in his new role, even as Rhyps swears to him. It will also allow him to reassure himself as to the welfare of his children guesting in the city.

[X] Dispatch Kallias north to Arimnus and then on foot throughout Padanian Etruria on the road to Atria to build allies against a potential Liburnian incursion, as they are growing bolder every year and could potentially strike at Eretria.

[X] We shall open the Sacred Treasury this one time, for the construction of the stone wall is vital to the defence of the city. The funds taken out of the treasury will be repaid into it at a rate no less than 50 talents a year, on top of the 10%annual tithe. With the additional funds available we will extend the wall to cover a larger area so that we may account for the city's growth, as well as the construction of a sea wall, to ward off naval raids and assault. [-320 talents,wall will cover a larger area of the city, wall will protect the shore and harbour, four turns to build, will draw from the Sacred Treasury].
 
The Liburnians have no reason to actively shut down all commerce in the Adriatic. Their likely end-game is to extract tribute; it's no longer the 6th century BCE anymore and they're not the hegemon of the region, and they're aware of that. Now, whether they would like to exact revenge on Eretria is unknown, as well as any more complex motives. But it isn't going to be some apocalypse of pirates; this isn't the 1st century BCE where pirates emerged from societal collapse and indiscriminately roved and raided because the Eastern Mediterranean was rapidly descending into anarchy.
 
[X] USER MOTION Harpos shall be King of the Peuketti, but at the hand of Eretria. He shall be elevated in a ceremony at Eretria a year hence, allowing him time to address the fears of the people of Rhyps, where he will reswear his oaths of allegiance in his new role, even as Rhyps swears to him. It will also allow him to reassure himself as to the welfare of his children guesting in the city.

[X] Dispatch Kallias north to Arimnus and then on foot throughout Padanian Etruria on the road to Atria to build allies against a potential Liburnian incursion, as they are growing bolder every year and could potentially strike at Eretria.

[X] We shall open the Sacred Treasury this one time, for the construction of the stone wall is vital to the defence of the city. The funds taken out of the treasury will be repaid into it at a rate no less than 50 talents a year, on top of the 10%annual tithe. With the additional funds available we will extend the wall to cover a larger area so that we may account for the city's growth, as well as the construction of a sea wall, to ward off naval raids and assault. [-320 talents,wall will cover a larger area of the city, wall will protect the shore and harbour, four turns to build, will draw from the Sacred Treasury].
 
Cetashwayo said:
The Liburnians have no reason to actively shut down all commerce in the Adriatic. Their likely end-game is to extract tribute; it's no longer the 6th century BCE anymore and they're not the hegemon of the region, and they're aware of that. Now, whether they would like to exact revenge on Eretria is unknown, as well as any more complex motives. But it isn't going to be some apocalypse of pirates; this isn't the 1st century BCE where pirates emerged from societal collapse and indiscriminately roved and raided because the Eastern Mediterranean was rapidly descending into anarchy.
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Oh, so they're looking to set up a protection racket?
 
[X] USER MOTION Harpos shall be King of the Peuketti, but at the hand of Eretria. He shall be elevated in a ceremony at Eretria a year hence, allowing him time to address the fears of the people of Rhyps, where he will reswear his oaths of allegiance in his new role, even as Rhyps swears to him. It will also allow him to reassure himself as to the welfare of his children guesting in the city.

[X] Dispatch Kallias north to Arimnus and then on foot throughout Padanian Etruria on the road to Atria to build allies against a potential Liburnian incursion, as they are growing bolder every year and could potentially strike at Eretria.

[X] We shall open the Sacred Treasury this one time, for the construction of the stone wall is vital to the defence of the city. The funds taken out of the treasury will be repaid into it at a rate no less than 50 talents a year, on top of the 10%annual tithe. With the additional funds available we will extend the wall to cover a larger area so that we may account for the city's growth, as well as the construction of a sea wall, to ward off naval raids and assault. [-320 talents,wall will cover a larger area of the city, wall will protect the shore and harbour, four turns to build, will draw from the Sacred Treasury].
 
[X] USER MOTION (Ironanvil1): Harpos shall be King of the Peuketti, but at the hand of Eretria. He shall be elevated in a ceremony at Eretria a year hence, allowing him time to address the fears of the people of Rhyps, where he will reswear his oaths of allegiance in his new role, even as Rhyps swears to him. It will also allow him to reassure himself as to the welfare of his children guesting in the city.

[X] Dispatch Kallias south to Metapontion, to gain allies, investigate the embezzlement tied to Lykai, and get a better read on the situation among the Italian Greeks and in Sicily, where it seems likely that the island's foremost tyrant will soon die.

[X] We shall open the Sacred Treasury this one time, for the construction of the stone wall is vital to the defence of the city. The funds taken out of the treasury will be repaid into it at a rate no less than 50 talents a year, on top of the 10% annual tithe. With the additional funds available we will extend the wall to cover a larger area so that we may account for the city's growth, as well as the construction of a sea wall, to ward off naval raids and assault.

So Cetashwayo what happened to the Peuketti in OTL?
 
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[X] USER MOTION Harpos shall be King of the Peuketti, but at the hand of Eretria. He shall be elevated in a ceremony at Eretria a year hence, allowing him time to address the fears of the people of Rhyps, where he will reswear his oaths of allegiance in his new role, even as Rhyps swears to him. It will also allow him to reassure himself as to the welfare of his children guesting in the city.

[X] Dispatch Kallias north to Arimnus and then on foot throughout Padanian Etruria on the road to Atria to build allies against a potential Liburnian incursion, as they are growing bolder every year and could potentially strike at Eretria.

[X] We shall open the Sacred Treasury this one time, for the construction of the stone wall is vital to the defence of the city. The funds taken out of the treasury will be repaid into it at a rate no less than 50 talents a year, on top of the 10%annual tithe. With the additional funds available we will extend the wall to cover a larger area so that we may account for the city's growth, as well as the construction of a sea wall, to ward off naval raids and assault. [-320 talents,wall will cover a larger area of the city, wall will protect the shore and harbour, four turns to build, will draw from the Sacred Treasury].
 
[X] USER MOTION (Ironanvil1): Harpos shall be King of the Peuketti, but at the hand of Eretria. He shall be elevated in a ceremony at Eretria a year hence, allowing him time to address the fears of the people of Rhyps, where he will reswear his oaths of allegiance in his new role, even as Rhyps swears to him. It will also allow him to reassure himself as to the welfare of his children guesting in the city.

[X] Dispatch Kallias south to Metapontion, to gain allies, investigate the embezzlement tied to Lykai, and get a better read on the situation among the Italian Greeks and in Sicily, where it seems likely that the island's foremost tyrant will soon die.

[X] USER MOTION (Cavalier): We shall open the Sacred Treasury this one time, for the construction of the stone wall is vital to the defence of the city. The funds taken out of the treasury will be repaid into it at a rate no less than 50 talents a year, on top of the 10% annual tithe. With the additional funds available we will extend the wall to cover a larger area so that we may account for the city's growth, as well as the construction of a sea wall, to ward off naval raids and assault. [-320 talents, wall will cover a larger area of the city, wall will protect the shore and harbour, four turns to build, will draw from the Sacred Treasury].
 
Vote Tally : Original - Alt. History - Magna Graecia: Victory's Children (A City State Quest) | Page 30 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 735-1022]
##### NetTally 1.9.9
Harpos has thoroughly and frighteningly annihilated his opposition among the Canosans. Although this is likely not the end of his trouble with the city, it is certainly a temporary silence of a terrifying kind. Now he turns his eyes to Rhyps, who have begged in advance not to be given over to his tender mercies. Although Rhyps has done nothing necessarily wrong, Harpos had requested that he at least be given some kind of formal overlordship over them and crowned as King of the Peuketii in order to bolster his prestige and reflect his continued loyalty to Eretria. Many citizens, however, are concerned that this is too much too quickly, and that such a thing would likely result in the potential execution of many of Rhyps' leadership. The matter now goes to the ekklesia to decide.

[3] One King among the Peuketii, one steady hand to deal with, one whelp to crush. What do we care for the fears of the meek in the face of the strong? Harpos has shown himself an extremely capable ruler who is willing to rebuff the Dauni. We can find no such friends among the people of Rhyps, whose only advantage is they cower before us.
[13] We cannot simply lay low all our allies when we see fit for the sake of empowering one man. He is capable, it is true, but the people of Rhyps have done nothing to deserve being turned over, and their fear keeps them well in line. There is little fear of them turning away from us, so why give Harpos a further boon so quickly?
[32] USER MOTION (Ironanvil1): Harpos shall be King of the Peuketti, but at the hand of Eretria. He shall be elevated in a ceremony at Eretria a year hence, allowing him time to address the fears of the people of Rhyps, where he will reswear his oaths of allegiance in his new role, even as Rhyps swears to him. It will also allow him to reassure himself as to the welfare of his children guesting in the city.

(On where to send the Xenoparakletor): The choices go before the ekklesia.

[9] Dispatch Kallias north to Arimnus and then on foot throughout Padanian Etruria on the road to Atria to build allies against a potential Liburnian incursion, as they are growing bolder every year and could potentially strike at Eretria.
[34] Dispatch Kallias south to Metapontion, to gain allies, investigate the embezzlement tied to Lykai, and get a better read on the situation among the Italian Greeks and in Sicily, where it seems likely that the island's foremost tyrant will soon die.
[3] Dispatch Kallias east to Hellas, in the face of growing Korinthian trade in the Adriatic and their needling of the Kerkyrans. If need be, get some kind of assurance that Athens will come to Eretria's aid if Korinthos goes to war, negating their naval advantage.

When it comes to the building of the new stone wall, there are several options for extensions open to the city. They can make the wall cover a larger area, construct a wall that fortifies the shore and harbour, or construct a wall thicker than usual where grain can be stored to withstand a long siege.

[6] We need to extend the wall to cover a larger area, so that we may account for the city's growth and plan it in a more orderly fashion. [-270 talents will cover a larger area of the city, three turns to build].
[4] We need to have the wall fortify the shore and harbour, so that we are protected against naval raids and assault. [-270 talents, wall will protect the shore and harbour, three turns to build].
[1] We need to thicken the wall to make it impervious to all comers and so that we may store grain in its cavities. [-270 talents, wall will be thicker and extend the ability's to hold out against siege for one year, three turns to build].
[0] We cannot afford to have all our money spent on these frills; the wall must be built as soon as possible [-220 talents, default Stone Wall, two turns to build].
[34] USER MOTION (Cavalier): We shall open the Sacred Treasury this one time, for the construction of the stone wall is vital to the defence of the city. The funds taken out of the treasury will be repaid into it at a rate no less than 50 talents a year, on top of the 10% annual tithe. With the additional funds available we will extend the wall to cover a larger area so that we may account for the city's growth, as well as the construction of a sea wall, to ward off naval raids and assault. [-320 talents, wall will cover a larger area of the city, wall will protect the shore and harbour, four turns to build, will draw from the Sacred Treasury].
[10] USER MOTION (Han Empire) We need to build the wall right to begin with. Let us use the Sacred Treasury to build a wall that befits the glory of Eretria, grand enough to impress the whole world! Extend the wall over a large area, fortify the shore and harbour, and thicken it to store grains. [-370 talents, five turns to build].


[1] USER MOTION - The Sacred Treasury shall be opened for the purpose of paying for a sea wall to be added to the chosen variant of stone wall in this one instance; any talents taken from the treasury shall be paid back into the treasury at a rate not less than 75 talents (or the remaining balance) a year on top of the 10% tithe from gross income.

Total No. of Voters: 56

Latest Cleaned up Tally! Options are pretty set in stone unless new arguments come out of the woodworks.

@Shebe Zuu your vote is off, please change to one of the approved votes or convince Cetashwayo to add in the option.
 
HanEmpire said:
Also what does this Write-In do to ensure Harpos doesn't off the Rhyps leadership?
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Harpos is smart. Telling him he's got to wait a year and use that time to address the fears of Rhyps conveys the message that we want him to use the carrot to get his prize, not the stick. It'd be insulting us if we grant him a gift and he immediately sets about smashing it.
 
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