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Magna Graecia: Victory's Children (A City State Quest)

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Admittedly given the incredibly brutal slaughter that Eretria has wreaked on the Peuketti, or caused to be wreaked, I suspect any concern for Rhyps comes off as a tad hypocritical to all concerned...
 
So, the argument here is that we shouldn't worry about the Liburni because we're building a wall that will protect the harbor five years from now? OK, fine, say that they don't attack us in all that time. What does a harbor wall do to help traders assaulted by pirates?

The Adriatic Sea is our one lifeline to the civilized world with Taras hating our guts, if we get blinded there then all of our contacts with the wider world don't even matter. We can't act in Sicily or coordinate with Metapontion if everyone's too terrified of pirates to sail here in anything less than a huge and expensive fleet.
 
Honestly, I don't get the whole terror of the Liburni suddenly. When they where at their peak we smashed their fleet with 30% of the Triremes we have now. Even then, the Liburnians only made a move that far south because of very specific circumstances due to the presence of an Eretrian traitor there.

The Liburnians right now are far from what they used to be either. They aren't going around sacking city, merely having packs hunt traders in the northern Adriatic (and just the north too), an irritant for sure but very far from the existential threat some made them to be. At the end of the day we need an ally on land, Metapontion might take time to come but it isn't like the Dauni can knock Eretria off quickly. That's what's truly existential now.

Suppose we do make an alliance with others in the Northern Adriatic, then what? Deploying the fleet up there is gonna be helishly expansive and I doubt the Liburni will make the mistake to offer open combat in the North too.
 
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It's been an entire generation since the Liburnians were defeated. They've had more than enough time to recover their manpower, and are now making use of Greek-style triremes and tactics. They have the potential to be a far more formidable threat to Eretria than ever before while our ability to deal with them is significantly constrained by the costs of maintaining an adequate naval force. And even if we have superiority in a field battle that scarcely matters if they descend on Eretria directly through the port in a nighttime surprise attack.
 
Kipeci said:
So, the argument here is that we shouldn't worry about the Liburni because we're building a wall that will protect the harbor five years from now? OK, fine, say that they don't attack us in all that time. What does a harbor wall do to help traders assaulted by pirates?

The Adriatic Sea is our one lifeline to the civilized world with Taras hating our guts, if we get blinded there then all of our contacts with the wider world don't even matter. We can't act in Sicily or coordinate with Metapontion if everyone's too terrified of pirates to sail here in anything less than a huge and expensive fleet.
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It's not the sole argument. I see you're cherry-picking, though.

I am curious as to which plan you could devise for us to obtain any positive result in the particular region and in response to this particular problem?
 
[X] USER MOTION Harpos shall be King of the Peuketti, but at the hand of Eretria. He shall be elevated in a ceremony at Eretria a year hence, allowing him time to address the fears of the people of Rhyps, where he will reswear his oaths of allegiance in his new role, even as Rhyps swears to him. It will also allow him to reassure himself as to the welfare of his children guesting in the city.

[X] Dispatch Kallias south to Metapontion, to gain allies, investigate the embezzlement tied to Lykai, and get a better read on the situation among the Italian Greeks and in Sicily, where it seems likely that the island's foremost tyrant will soon die.

[X] We shall open the Sacred Treasury this one time, for the construction of the stone wall is vital to the defence of the city. The funds taken out of the treasury will be repaid into it at a rate no less than 50 talents a year, on top of the 10% annual tithe. With the additional funds available we will extend the wall to cover a larger area so that we may account for the city's growth, as well as the construction of a sea wall, to ward off naval raids and assault. [-320 talents, wall will cover a larger area of the city, wall will protect the shore and harbour, four turns to build, will draw from the Sacred Treasury].
 
Cavalier said:
It's been an entire generation since the Liburnians were defeated. They've had more than enough time to recover their manpower, and are now making use of Greek-style triremes and tactics. They have the potential to be a far more formidable threat to Eretria than ever before while our ability to deal with them is significantly constrained by the costs of maintaining an adequate naval force. And even if we have superiority in a field battle that scarcely matters if they descend on Eretria directly through the port in a nighttime surprise attack.
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The problem is I can't really see that there's a straightforward way to defuse the issue. We don't have the fleet to go hunting them, nor the cash to build and maintain it, and the Adriatic powers are divided enough that building a coalition between Kerkyra and Korinth to clear the pirates seems doubtful.

If there was nothing else on the horizon, I'd say send Kallias North to see if any opportunities presented themselves, but we instead have Metapontion, something where Kallias is almost guaranteed to produce favourable outcomes for us.
 
I think that perhaps we should see how deeply our influence runs Syracuse before heading up north. I think we might get the needed mone and manpower needed to clear the adriatic from there.
 
Arcus said:
@Cetashwayo do you plan to add a Dramatis Personae section to the threadmarks?
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Maybe later :V

phil03 said:
@Cetashwayo What does the more proeminent voice of the city think of the question?
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Of the Liburni vs Metapontion vs Hellas? They are divided. Drako and Antipater want us to go to Metapontion, Timaeus (who has thrown his hat into the ring for this discussion) to the north, Herodion to Hellas.

In general Drako and Antipater want more allies but Herodion is skeptical and thinks that more allies are more problems in this instance since they don't have access through Messapii lands to help Metapontion in a war.
 
Rex Romulus said:
[X] USER MOTION Harpos shall be King of the Peuketti, but at the hand of Eretria. He shall be elevated in a ceremony at Eretria a year hence, allowing him time to address the fears of the people of Rhyps, where he will reswear his oaths of allegiance in his new role, even as Rhyps swears to him. It will also allow him to reassure himself as to the welfare of his children guesting in the city.

@Cetashwayo the above USER MOTION does not expressly say which child we will take, nor does it say that he should not follow Herodion and/or Harpos if we mobilise our forces. Are such things implied or must we make them explicit?
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@Cetashwayo Wouldn't want to get on your nerves, but just making sure we get the answer as it might change how we want to write the motion.
 
Rex Romulus said:
@Cetashwayo Wouldn't want to get on your nerves, but just making sure we get the answer as it might change how we want to write the motion.
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Yeah, my answer to this got eaten by post draft shenanigans. What are you asking here, precisely? It would be second son and second daughter (to Herodion and Drako) and they would be prohibited in raising arms either way until they reached age of majority.
 
Rex Romulus said:
You've properly answered the question: it's implicit.
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Okay, good. In general people should not worry about "haha tricked u u didn't specify his full name" type stuff from me. I'll fill in the blanks for you.

Ironanvil1 said:
There aren't exactly a lot of Messapii around the region between Azetion and Silvion.
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You have to go around unless you want to cross into Lucani territory and no one really wants to. Even in Messapii territory, The area is fairly upland so they want to get to a lower elevation, which necessitates going through more clearly defined Messapii land.
 
[X] USER MOTION Harpos shall be King of the Peuketti, but at the hand of Eretria. He shall be elevated in a ceremony at Eretria a year hence, allowing him time to address the fears of the people of Rhyps, where he will reswear his oaths of allegiance in his new role, even as Rhyps swears to him. It will also allow him to reassure himself as to the welfare of his children guesting in the city.

[X] Dispatch Kallias south to Metapontion, to gain allies, investigate the embezzlement tied to Lykai, and get a better read on the situation among the Italian Greeks and in Sicily, where it seems likely that the island's foremost tyrant will soon die.

[X] We shall open the Sacred Treasury this one time, for the construction of the stone wall is vital to the defence of the city. The funds taken out of the treasury will be repaid into it at a rate no less than 50 talents a year, on top of the 10% annual tithe. With the additional funds available we will extend the wall to cover a larger area so that we may account for the city's growth, as well as the construction of a sea wall, to ward off naval raids and assault. [-320 talents, wall will cover a larger area of the city, wall will protect the shore and harbour, four turns to build, will draw from the Sacred Treasury].

As much as I want to get all the wall options, tougher walls and an extra year of siege time is the least valuable of the options for an extra year of construction. Especially with the votes being so stacked against it as is.
 
Rex Romulus said:
It's not the sole argument. I see you're cherry-picking, though.

I am curious as to which plan you could devise for us to obtain any positive result in the particular region and in response to this particular problem?
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First off, we need to strengthen our diplomatic ties with the Enetoi. They are friendly and have good trade relations; this trouble in the north directly impacts them, thinning their naval force and withering the trade that also supports and justifies their naval forces.

What we want to do is to take what we have and combine forces with them to take down the nascent Liburni forces before the Enetoi naval forces can be devastated. It's far less expensive to intervene and pacify the Adriatic now than it is to have to build up massive forces of our own to attack pirate fleets out of our vicinity. Presently a more strategic, less expensive force may be added to theirs.
 
Kipeci said:
First off, we need to strengthen our diplomatic ties with the Enetoi. They are friendly and have good trade relations; this trouble in the north directly impacts them, thinning their naval force and withering the trade that also supports and justifies their naval forces.

What we want to do is to take what we have and combine forces with them to take down the nascent Liburni forces before the Enetoi naval forces can be devastated. It's far less expensive to intervene and pacify the Adriatic now than it is to have to build up massive forces of our own to attack pirate fleets out of our vicinity. Presently a more strategic, less expensive force may be added to theirs.
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The Enetoi were already defeated at sea, going by the turn update.
 
Kipeci said:
First off, we need to strengthen our diplomatic ties with the Enetoi. They are friendly and have good trade relations; this trouble in the north directly impacts them, thinning their naval force and withering the trade that also supports and justifies their naval forces.

What we want to do is to take what we have and combine forces with them to take down the nascent Liburni forces before the Enetoi naval forces can be devastated. It's far less expensive to intervene and pacify the Adriatic now than it is to have to build up massive forces of our own to attack pirate fleets out of our vicinity. Presently a more strategic, less expensive force may be added to theirs.
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Ironanvil1 said:
The Enetoi were already defeated at sea, going by the turn update.
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This and that's assuming that the Liburnians are gonna accept the fight, witch they have no reasons too. They know we can't really keep a permanent presence there so they just have to wait off until our fleet depart. We could always try to attack their cities directly but without having defeated their fleets at sea its a risky proposition, to say the least.

I also have a hard time seeing them move that far south, they seem to have a pretty healthy respect of Korinth naval power and disrupting trades the way they do that far south will incite their wrath. What does Eusebios think of all of that? He seem more equiped to judge the situation on that front then anyone else.
 
phil03 said:
What does Eusebios think of all of that? He seem more equiped to judge the situation on that front then anyone else.
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Eusebios thinks that the Liburnians are testing the limits of their naval power and expanding further every year in their pirate raids. If he is right it will take a few years before they attempt a raid on Eretria because they are attempting to see how far they can go without intervention.
 
Cetashwayo said:
Eusebios thinks that the Liburnians are testing the limits of their naval power and expanding further every year in their pirate raids. If he is right it will take a few years before they attempt a raid on Eretria because they are attempting to see how far they can go without intervention.
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What does he propose to do, strategy wise? The issue I see with the Liburnians is that they're is no easy way to truly hit at their powerbase.
 
phil03 said:
What does he propose to do, strategy wise? The issue I see with the Liburnians is that they're is no easy way to truly hit at their powerbase.
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He sees a direct naval expedition as unwise, though collecting allies in the north has some potential if the Etruscans have the ships.
 
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