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Magna Graecia: Victory's Children (A City State Quest)

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[X] One King among the Peuketii, one steady hand to deal with, one whelp to crush. What do we care for the fears of the meek in the face of the strong? Harpos has shown himself an extremely capable ruler who is willing to rebuff the Dauni. We can find no such friends among the people of Rhyps, whose only advantage is they cower before us.

Demetrios son Lysandros spoke

''What is done is done. We have already elevated Harpos to a degree of supremacy over his fellow Peuketii unkown before. Compare to the land he gained from Azetion and to the supremacy over Cannosa. If we could have him promess to not harm Rhyps it would be best but preserving the town is simply not worth possibly alienating Harpos by refusing him the title corresponding to his power after having been put in command of Canossa.''

[X] Dispatch Kallias south to Metapontion, to gain allies, investigate the embezzlement tied to Lykai, and get a better read on the situation among the Italian Greeks and in Sicily, where it seems likely that the island's foremost tyrant will soon die.

''The Korinthian threat can't be underestimated, nor can be the Liburnian one. Our merchants, I am sure, can testify to that. Neverthless, the faith of Eretria won't be decided at sea but on land, in Italy. We need a new ally, a greek ally, an ally with strenght on land. Metapontion fit the bill.

[X] We shall open the Sacred Treasury this one time, for the construction of the stone wall is vital to the defence of the city. The funds taken out of the treasury will be repaid into it at a rate no less than 50 talents a year, on top of the 10% annual tithe. With the additional funds available we will extend the wall to cover a larger area so that we may account for the city's growth, as well as the construction of a sea wall, to ward off naval raids and assault. [-320 talents, wall will cover a larger area of the city, wall will protect the shore and harbour, four turns to build, will draw from the Sacred Treasury].

''For the city to be truly secure, the harbour and the shore need to be protected as well. Nevertheless, we must also plan for the future: Eretria is growing and will only continue to do so, our new quarters will have to be protected as well. As the wall is more vital to the future of the city then any other public works project I reluctantly support using the funds of the Sacred Treasury for it''.

 
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[X] We cannot simply lay low all our allies when we see fit for the sake of empowering one man. He is capable, it is true, but the people of Rhyps have done nothing to deserve being turned over, and their fear keeps them well in line. There is little fear of them turning away from us, so why give Harpos a further boon so quickly?

[X] Dispatch Kallias south to Metapontion, to gain allies, investigate the embezzlement tied to Lykai,and get a better read on the situation among the Italian Greeks and in Sicily, where it seems likely that the island's foremost tyrant will soon die.

[X] We need to extend the wall to cover a larger area, so that we may account for the city's growth and plan it in a more orderly fashion. [-270 talents will cover a larger area of the city, three turns to build].
 
If we elect not to build the sea-wall then we really need to look at doing something about the Liburnians ASAP. Unfortunately Kerkyra is distracted by the threat from Korinth (and Korinthian presence in the upper Adriatic is concerning given the leeway the Liburians are giving them and possible contacts with Arpus) so we can't rely on them. And not doing something about the Liburnians invites the possibility of a sudden and unexpected sack of the city.
 
Cetashwayo said:
GM
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Is it possible to have some sort of voting moratorium again? Feels like we're voting without having the discussions we used to.

Cavalier said:
If we elect not to build the sea-wall then we really need to look at doing something about the Liburnians ASAP. Unfortunately Kerkyra is distracted by the threat from Korinth (and Korinthian presence in the upper Adriatic is concerning given the leeway the Liburians are giving them and possible contacts with Arpus) so we can't rely on them. And not doing something about the Liburnians invites the possibility of a sudden and unexpected sack of the city.
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I agree, the absolute worst case would be combined invasion by the Dauni and the Liburnians + betrayal from Harpos.
 
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Cavalier said:
If we elect not to build the sea-wall then we really need to look at doing something about the Liburnians ASAP. Unfortunately Kerkyra is distracted by the threat from Korinth (and Korinthian presence in the upper Adriatic is concerning given the leeway the Liburians are giving them and possible contacts with Arpus) so we can't rely on them. And not doing something about the Liburnians invites the possibility of a sudden and unexpected sack of the city.
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This is a fair point but looking at the option to send Kallias north it seems both dangerous and unlikely to work. I feel our best bet now is attempting to do something about Korinth in the hopes that allows Kerkyra to refocus.
 
How expensive (Best Guess) would it be to build a second, larger wall later on?

Basically have the defensive structure of the city be like the following:
Acropolis inside of a...
Citadel with a Sea Wall inside of a...
Outer City Wall with a Sea Wall inside of a...

I'm not going to say anything about how likely it is that we'll get that outer city wall any time soon, but approximately how expensive would that be do you reckon? Basically, consider it being larger than the current 'Expand City Walls' option...
 
"Fellow citizens, concern for the barbaroi who have submitted gracefully to our yoke does us credit. But we must consider the matter in light of what is good for the polis. To place Rhyps under the rule of Harpos does not advance his power so greatly as to pose more of a threat than he already might. We have made him King of the Peuketti in fact by allowing him to subdue the treacherous notables of Canosa. There is no good reason now to deny him what he craves, which is to be King of the Peuketti in name as well. He would have no remaining incentive to listen to the blandishments of Arpus, as no King will willingly make himself subordinate to another King; whereas to deny Harpos something of inestimable value to him and of limited use to us would be to court his umbrage and passion.

And yet Harpos has proven himself thus far loyal as well as undeniably effective. He aided our sieges of Murgia and Azetion, provided the sacrifices to the divine siblings Apollo and Artemis, and his actions at Canosa clearly thwarted the designs of the wily Arpus. He is also a sensible man, proven as such by his rebuff of the Dauni offer to make him King. He has no quarrel or cause for violence with the people of Rhyps, and every reason to show them good clemency and tolerance. And we would gain by his elevation a King over the Peuketti as a whole answerable to our polis, who can keep order among them and make them ever more useful to our ends, as one might appoint a trusted slave to oversee the serfs of the fields. Our probolous, Herodion, who has experience dealing with the vassalage and ties of barbaroi, has by experience found managing one to be better than ten; and Harpos has clearly shown himself by his audacity the foremost of the Peuketti, while also showing us many proofs of his loyalty to our city.

In short to give him the title of what he has claimed already does not make him all that much more powerful but it does greatly ease our burdens and renders him more grateful still to the polis for his fortune. If we cannot trust him with Rhyps we could never have trusted him with Canosa, so there is no need to deny him. So argues Kallias, son of Aristedes."
 
I think for wall progress it should be

Extend Wall -> Thicken Wall -> Sea Wall

Extend Wall to finalize the borders of the city and leave space for proper city planning, then fortify the wall. Sea wall goes last as it does not benefit from either of those two upgrades.
 
[X] We cannot simply lay low all our allies when we see fit for the sake of empowering one man. He is capable, it is true, but the people of Rhyps have done nothing to deserve being turned over, and their fear keeps them well in line. There is little fear of them turning away from us, so why give Harpos a further boon so quickly?

[X] Dispatch Kallias north to Arimnus and then on foot throughout Padanian Etruria on the road to Atria to build allies against a potential Liburnian incursion, as they are growing bolder every year and could potentially strike at Eretria.

[X] USER MOTION (Cavalier): We shall open the Sacred Treasury this one time, for the construction of the stone wall is vital to the defence of the city. The funds taken out of the treasury will be repaid into it at a rate no less than 50 talents a year, on top of the 10% annual tithe. With the additional funds available we will extend the wall to cover a larger area so that we may account for the city's growth, as well as the construction of a sea wall, to ward off naval raids and assault. [-320 talents, wall will cover a larger area of the city, wall will protect the shore and harbour, four turns to build, will draw from the Sacred Treasury].

Handing Rhyps over to Harpos isn't the best choice at the present, IMO. We've given him Canosa and let him do whatever he wanted to it. That's pretty generous, and I don't find it unreasonable to stop there for the present. If he continues to be a good vassal, we'll give him Rhyps later.

The last two choices aren't as clear-cut, though I think there's one option for each that we can immediately discount.

The sea wall isn't really useful at the moment. What's more, it's definitely the easiest option to add later, and with Korinthos and the Liburnians starting fires, the political will to build it will pop up sooner or later as people get nervous. Our concern is the Dauni and Lucani, who are at the moment unknown actors who might do nearly anything without warning. The citadel wall is tempting for several reasons, but given that we're not under immediate assault, I think we can afford to plan a little for our city's future.

EDIT: I have been convinced to add the sea wall. I was inclined to build it later, but given that we do have the funds and that naval threats are becoming a real possibility, I acknowledge that it is necessary. The Korinthoi and Liburnians are probably not immediate threats but they probably will shortly become one. The cost of adding on a sea wall is real and serious, but the dangers of not having one in the current climate are worse.

Sending Kallias to the mainland doesn't seem very useful. Korinthos is a problem, but they're distant and not immediate; right now we have bigger fish to fry. At any rate, the political situation on Hellas is essentially out of our hands. The players there are much larger than us and rather preoccupied by other concerns. Sending Kallias south is a good choice and I would normally pick it over the other, but since we won't have a sea wall, we need allies to deal with the Liburnians and possibly eventually the Korinthians as well.
 
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Like seriously let me put it this way. Making Harpos King and handing him Rhyps does not materially make him more of a threat. If he is willing to betray Eretria than having handed him Canosa lets him do as much damage as he could anyway. And if he brutalizes the people of Rhyps and maintains his power by fear then his hold over the Peuketti will actually be rather brittle if he does turn on Eretria. So his incentives are to treat Rhyps relatively well, since it's basically not very important or wealthy and has no history with Sannape to motivate Harpos and his allies among the displaced tribals to violence.

Meanwhile giving him the title in name as well as in fact (since he's basically King anyway since we gave him Canosa) will make him less inclined to betray Eretria since what can the other Iapygians offer him except subordination to them?

Also as far as Hellas goes I wouldn't discount Athens. It's a nuclear option to invoke the Athenoi, but they have the men and the ships and the money to save Eretria's bacon even from the Korinthians, if they're motivated to do so. Having that big red button might prove the difference between destruction and survival for the city in the worst case scenarios.
 
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Cavalier said:
Like seriously let me put it this way. Making Harpos King and handing him Rhyps does not materially make him more of a threat. If he is willing to betray Eretria than having handed him Canosa lets him do as much damage as he could anyway. And if he brutalizes the people of Rhyps and maintains his power by fear then his hold over the Peuketti will actually be rather brittle if he does turn on Eretria. So his incentives are to treat Rhyps relatively well, since it's basically not very important or wealthy and has no history with Sannape to motivate Harpos and his allies among the displaced tribals to violence.

Meanwhile giving him the title in name as well as in fact (since he's basically King anyway since we gave him Canosa) will make him less inclined to betray Eretria since what can the other Iapygians offer him except subordination to them?
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They can offer him independance from us, and a chance to kick us off Italy, which is something the Dauni, Peuketti, and Messappii all want.
 
Shebe Zuu said:
They can offer him independance from us, and a chance to kick us off Italy, which is something the Dauni, Peuketti, and Messappii all want.
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The Dauni and Messappii both want supremacy for their kings over all the Lapgives. Thus, any of them offering independence to Harpos is unlikely. By giving him the title and overlordship over Rhyps we likely remove the only promise they would be realistically willing to make to get him on board. We already made Harpos king in all facts, it is natural that he will want to be so in name as well. We might as well settle that now and remove that of the lists of potential reasons for backstabing.
 
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Cavalier said:
If that is in fact what he wants then we have already given him everything he needs for that so what the hell does Rhyps matter?
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As the closest Peuketti town to us, having control of Rhyps greatly increases his ability to strike us within a short timeframe. What's more, an independant Rhyps is more likely to hellenize in the long run then a Rhyps under Harpos' rule.
EDIT: Also, we've given him pretty much everything he's asked for at this point. If this is all it takes for him to betray us, he was probably going to do it anyway.
 
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[x] USER MOTION (Han Empire) We need to build the wall right to begin with. Let us use the Sacred Treasury to build a wall that befits the glory of Eretria, grand enough to impress the whole world! Extend the wall over a large area, fortify the shore and harbour, and thicken it to store grains. [-370 talents, five turns to build].
 
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Also I reluctantly submit the following motion;

The Sacred Treasury shall be opened for the purpose of paying for defensive works around the stone wall this one instance; any talents taken from the treasury shall be paid back into the treasury at a rate not less than 75 talents (or the remaining balance) a year on top of the 10% tithe from gross income.

The only reason to even consider this is that the wall is a majorly vital defensive work, we were expecting to have to spend a bunch of talents on a war this turn anyway. I don't like the precedent but I think we badly need the sea wall. We might also consider rescinding the laws against slave labor and serf labor solely for owners who send them to work on the wall, to speed up construction.
 
Cavalier said:
Also I reluctantly submit the following motion;

The Sacred Treasury shall be opened for the purpose of paying for defensive works around the stone wall this one instance; any talents taken from the treasury shall be paid back into the treasury at a rate not less than 75 talents (or the remaining balance) a year on top of the 10% tithe from gross income.

The only reason to even consider this is that the wall is a majorly vital defensive work, we were expecting to have to spend a bunch of talents on a war this turn anyway. I don't like the precedent but I think we badly need the sea wall. We might also consider rescinding the laws against slave labor and serf labor solely for owners who send them to work on the wall, to speed up construction.
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For clarity, is this just using the sacred treasury to fund the sea wall, or are you trying to add the sea wall onto something else?
 
[X] We cannot simply lay low all our allies when we see fit for the sake of empowering one man. He is capable, it is true, but the people of Rhyps have done nothing to deserve being turned over, and their fear keeps them well in line. There is little fear of them turning away from us, so why give Harpos a further boon so quickly?
[X] Dispatch Kallias south to Metapontion, to gain allies, investigate the embezzlement tied to Lykai, and get a better read on the situation among the Italian Greeks and in Sicily, where it seems likely that the island's foremost tyrant will soon die.
[X] We need to have the wall fortify the shore and harbour, so that we are protected against naval raids and assault. [-270 talents, wall will protect the shore and harbour, three turns to build].


No overlordship of Rhyps. They are doing well for us just the way they are, and Harpos is getting a bit too greedy too fast for a barbaroi vassal king.

It's also about time we see what's going on in Sicily, because good gods, that can go ugly fast from what we know of the current situation.

I also prefer a fortified shore and harbour because we're probably not going to invest in a fleet anytime soon OR deal with the pirate issue OR get much naval assurances from Athens: the battle of Fifty Masts was awsome, but we can't assume we'll be able to pull it off again against a superior force.
 
Shebe Zuu said:
For clarity, is this just using the sacred treasury to fund the sea wall, or are you trying to add the sea wall onto something else?
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Well technically this is independent of the add-ons though I expect "we should build all three" to win if the funds are available. If it's just the sea-wall there's not really a need to spend supplementary funds from the Treasury.
 
Cavalier said:
Well technically this is independent of the add-ons though I expect "we should build all three" to win if the funds are available. If it's just the sea-wall there's not really a need to spend supplementary funds from the Treasury.
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I will carry your rock to fund the sea wall from the sacred treasury as an independent proposal from the wall vote. I still think having a expanded wall is important, but my second choice is definitely the sea wall.
 
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