Sarpedon
Knight Errant
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Yeah there was a lot of PURGE THE ARISTOI, CLASS WAR NOW idiocy.
-
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Magna Graecia: A City State Quest
- Thread starter Cetashwayo
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
Well I imagine it was low to begin with from having our butts kicked by the Persians, but yeah...
Close one.
- Location
- Hawaii
Since there was an overwhelming majority for reforming the cavalry, I thought we might as well look at our other military branches. We've decided on an expansion of our navy, but what about our Marines? They're still using full hoplite panoply despite it being less than optimal for such conditions. I recall Eusebios introducing a reform early in the quest, but it was rejected. Could it be revisited now?
In terms of our lands forces, there's little we can really improve about the heavy infantry at this point, unless we're allowed to invent the sarissa phalanx well over a century early. We already have the Ekdromoi as our sacred band, which is fairly ahead of the OTL.
Looking at the light infantry, it's they which have changed the least. Yes, they used a bit of captured enemy armor at the Battle of Canthara, as well as some barbaroi tactics, but I'm unsure if that continued. Now however, Herodion has returned, and as a master of unconventional tactics and with exposure to the myriad mercenary forces of the western Mediterranean, would have seen a variety of tactics and technologies. In the recent conflict at Akragas, Hiero had used slingers to decent effect. He may also have encountered Sardinian archers or Balearic slingers, as Carthage had contact with those regions. Additionally, Iberian warriors made use of soliferrum javelins (can't remember the Greek name atm Iberian name is saunion) to disable shields, and a variation of then wrapped in burning tinder as incendiary weapons (edit: Falarica or Phalarica).
While Eretria wouldn't necessarily be able to adopt all, or even most of these weapons, we could still develop some new tactics based on new and old knowledge. With the local superiority of barbarian cavalry, we could bolster our cavalry with psiloi. Once the enemy horse commits to a charge the psiloi could loose a volley of javelins to disrupt the charge and break up their cohesion, then our cavalry could counter-charge. Then if necessary, the psiloi could move in and use spare javelins as short spears to aid our cavalry. Of course, this tactic is highly dependent on timing and discipline. It would not be beyond the capacity of the elite cavalry we plan on fielding, but it would require more extensive training of the psiloi.
Another idea would be to volley javelins for maximum range, which would require wrapping the ankule behind the center of gravity, and rely on massed volleys to disrupt and damage formations. If we could implement a volley fire system, we might be able to take on and defeat much larger forces without having to rely entirely on superior heavy infantry. One downside would be the much higher ammunition requirements of continual volley fire (individuals carry more javelins, or additional reliance on a baggage train), meaning we could not use them as a quick screening force, and they would need to be closely supported by melee troops
Better training combined with some better equipment for the psiloi, stir, and look, are those light peltasts?
In terms of our lands forces, there's little we can really improve about the heavy infantry at this point, unless we're allowed to invent the sarissa phalanx well over a century early. We already have the Ekdromoi as our sacred band, which is fairly ahead of the OTL.
Looking at the light infantry, it's they which have changed the least. Yes, they used a bit of captured enemy armor at the Battle of Canthara, as well as some barbaroi tactics, but I'm unsure if that continued. Now however, Herodion has returned, and as a master of unconventional tactics and with exposure to the myriad mercenary forces of the western Mediterranean, would have seen a variety of tactics and technologies. In the recent conflict at Akragas, Hiero had used slingers to decent effect. He may also have encountered Sardinian archers or Balearic slingers, as Carthage had contact with those regions. Additionally, Iberian warriors made use of soliferrum javelins (
While Eretria wouldn't necessarily be able to adopt all, or even most of these weapons, we could still develop some new tactics based on new and old knowledge. With the local superiority of barbarian cavalry, we could bolster our cavalry with psiloi. Once the enemy horse commits to a charge the psiloi could loose a volley of javelins to disrupt the charge and break up their cohesion, then our cavalry could counter-charge. Then if necessary, the psiloi could move in and use spare javelins as short spears to aid our cavalry. Of course, this tactic is highly dependent on timing and discipline. It would not be beyond the capacity of the elite cavalry we plan on fielding, but it would require more extensive training of the psiloi.
Another idea would be to volley javelins for maximum range, which would require wrapping the ankule behind the center of gravity, and rely on massed volleys to disrupt and damage formations. If we could implement a volley fire system, we might be able to take on and defeat much larger forces without having to rely entirely on superior heavy infantry. One downside would be the much higher ammunition requirements of continual volley fire (individuals carry more javelins, or additional reliance on a baggage train), meaning we could not use them as a quick screening force, and they would need to be closely supported by melee troops
Better training combined with some better equipment for the psiloi, stir, and look, are those light peltasts?
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- Location
- Meycauayan, Bulacan, Philippines
Well, if the quest ever goes down this path, I would point out that there is a ready source of experience and teachers for these kinds of tactics in the form of the few Thracians who got afexi citizenship.
- Location
- Luton Airport
It entirely makes sense to me that in a new city with a newly shaping democracy, the concept of simply transferring over the established power of the aristoi from the old polis would be challenged. Look how many of the notables of Eretria now are drawn from outside the traditional aristocracy - even Drako, darling of the aristoi, is in many ways one of the "new men", involved in industry, related by marriage to Eusebios, icon of populist success.
I've been pushing for the Euzonoi "heavy psiloi" since Canthara. They got ignored due the the chopping off people's heads and throwing them at their friends being seen as uncouth behaviour.
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
Why would we have to chop off peoples heads?
- Location
- Luton Airport
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
Why would a heavy psilloi unit, necessitate the chopping of heads?
- Location
- Luton Airport
You've got the wrong end of the pointy stick - the idea of heavy psiloi, as something to be given official backing as a force, was undercut due to said psiloi committing minor warcrimes/breaches of battlefield etiquette at Canthara. Then by Leontios, their main political proponent, exiting the stage pursued by creditors.
They will still be around, informally, but just as individual "psiloi who got lucky with loot", rather than a formed force.
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
Ah, thanks for explaining your post to me.
- Location
- Central Europe
@Cetashwayo There was something I found while looking at how our income had grown over the last few turns. The values of taxation in turn 16 and turn 17 are both 131.1.
Is this the result of an intentional change in the taxation system by you? Or is this an error?
Is this the result of an intentional change in the taxation system by you? Or is this an error?
- Location
- Hawaii
@Cetashwayo What is the quest policy on omakes? Because I have Ideas.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
I mean, I don't say no. It would depend on what you are actually planning?
@Cetashwayo There was something I found while looking at how our income had grown over the last few turns. The values of taxation in turn 16 and turn 17 are both 131.1.
Is this the result of an intentional change in the taxation system by you? Or is this an error?
Could be either. Doesn't matter because all the actual accounting is done on excel spread, so it would just be a clerical error. I know a while back Cavalier found we had more money than we actually thought, but I tend to chalk up me bungling the occasional accounting, as long as it's minor, to poor methods of bookkeeping
- Location
- Hawaii
[Advertising signpost]
Come one and all, to see the new production of EXORIAD, the epic tale of Herodion and his Kleos Exoria!
Herodion and his loyal band set sail for the west, and came to serve Mago, the King of Qart Hadast. Brilliance and discipline in equal measure saw them through countless battles, even their service transcended the reign of kings. Under new Hanno, the Kleos Exoria marched the plains of Libya, the hills of Iberia, and the familiar lands of Sicily. Though of Hellene stock, they fought beside Barbaroi, and their excellence shone through. Where Celt or Iberian might flee before innumerable foe, the brave hoplites of Eretria stood insurmountable. Whether Brilliant Herodion of the cavalry, or Implacable Eutropios of the phalanx, they defeated all opposition, save one; the wily Hiero. Though united in arms against Hiero, the Hellenes of Sicily were not one in thought, and failed to move in synchrony. Thus were the Kleos Exoria handed their only defeat, soon to be avenged with the aid of Great Hanno. Hiero feared Herodion so, he hired an assassin to lay him low in his sleep. Herodion was favored of the gods, however, and the cowardly cur met his end and the hands of Eutropios, as he beat three Celts in their knife game. On the day of battle, Herodion drove the Gelan horse before him, and broke Hiero's will to fight. The tyrant only found peace for the grace of Hanno, who was called to battle in Africa hence. With gods-gifted victory, Herodion felt the call of fair Eretria again, returning with great riches in the style of the Argonauts. – Excerpts from EXORIAD
[Neighboring sign]
EXORIAD, a brand new epic (comedy) of the Kleos Exoria, brought to you by the Monteos Pythios acting troupe!
At Himera we fight, both kings fall down bloody, struck down by each others' gods, who forgot to shield their own. Though Gelo's army broke, not one was run down, for who but their king could impel them to fight? It was not like some nymph hurled a sword to such a king that gave him the right to rule. And so until the new king of Qart Hadast arrived, both armies sat with each other sculpting shrubberies and chopping down might trees of the forest with but herrings...
Besieging a nameless hill-fort in Iberia, the Kleos Exoria debate how to seize the gate, since they had been driven off by a relentless hail of elderberries. Clever Herodion draws inspiration from legendary heroes, having thought: What would Odysseos do? And so the hoplites, though carpenters they were not, and a good drawer Herodion was not, constructed a great wooden horse. However, lack of skill lent the horse stunted rear legs and overlong forelegs, and miniscule muzzle, and overlarge ears. In short, it looked too much like a rabbit, which previously had savaged poor Eutychos and his company... – Excerpts from EXORIAD
Just a couple of excerpts. How about some confused audience reviews?
Come one and all, to see the new production of EXORIAD, the epic tale of Herodion and his Kleos Exoria!
Herodion and his loyal band set sail for the west, and came to serve Mago, the King of Qart Hadast. Brilliance and discipline in equal measure saw them through countless battles, even their service transcended the reign of kings. Under new Hanno, the Kleos Exoria marched the plains of Libya, the hills of Iberia, and the familiar lands of Sicily. Though of Hellene stock, they fought beside Barbaroi, and their excellence shone through. Where Celt or Iberian might flee before innumerable foe, the brave hoplites of Eretria stood insurmountable. Whether Brilliant Herodion of the cavalry, or Implacable Eutropios of the phalanx, they defeated all opposition, save one; the wily Hiero. Though united in arms against Hiero, the Hellenes of Sicily were not one in thought, and failed to move in synchrony. Thus were the Kleos Exoria handed their only defeat, soon to be avenged with the aid of Great Hanno. Hiero feared Herodion so, he hired an assassin to lay him low in his sleep. Herodion was favored of the gods, however, and the cowardly cur met his end and the hands of Eutropios, as he beat three Celts in their knife game. On the day of battle, Herodion drove the Gelan horse before him, and broke Hiero's will to fight. The tyrant only found peace for the grace of Hanno, who was called to battle in Africa hence. With gods-gifted victory, Herodion felt the call of fair Eretria again, returning with great riches in the style of the Argonauts. – Excerpts from EXORIAD
[Neighboring sign]
EXORIAD, a brand new epic (comedy) of the Kleos Exoria, brought to you by the Monteos Pythios acting troupe!
At Himera we fight, both kings fall down bloody, struck down by each others' gods, who forgot to shield their own. Though Gelo's army broke, not one was run down, for who but their king could impel them to fight? It was not like some nymph hurled a sword to such a king that gave him the right to rule. And so until the new king of Qart Hadast arrived, both armies sat with each other sculpting shrubberies and chopping down might trees of the forest with but herrings...
Besieging a nameless hill-fort in Iberia, the Kleos Exoria debate how to seize the gate, since they had been driven off by a relentless hail of elderberries. Clever Herodion draws inspiration from legendary heroes, having thought: What would Odysseos do? And so the hoplites, though carpenters they were not, and a good drawer Herodion was not, constructed a great wooden horse. However, lack of skill lent the horse stunted rear legs and overlong forelegs, and miniscule muzzle, and overlarge ears. In short, it looked too much like a rabbit, which previously had savaged poor Eutychos and his company... – Excerpts from EXORIAD
Just a couple of excerpts. How about some confused audience reviews?
Last edited:
- Location
- Luton Airport
Just blame it all on Ianedar.Could be either. Doesn't matter because all the actual accounting is done on excel spread, so it would just be a clerical error. I know a while back Cavalier found we had more money than we actually thought, but I tend to chalk up me bungling the occasional accounting, as long as it's minor, to poor methods of bookkeeping
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
Theyre gonna make a movie about her aren't they.
- Location
- Luton Airport
- Location
- Mists of Albion
Yes him...
- Location
- Calgary
[X] Delegated: A single head strategos, two deputy strategoi, and seven more subordinate strategoi.
--Military leadership by committee is always a disaster.
[X] Ampellios: Bold Interdiction. Construct a fort in the countryside, on a high hill near Azetion, and house a garrison there year-round for an expense. Use this to raid the countryside at any time, from anywhere, and make Azetion feel unsecure to force a surrender. [4 Months military upkeep, -50 talents to construct a fort, -10 talents annually for upkeep].
--Forts pay off in the long run.
[X] Make the entrance a rigorous competition of the flower of the youth. [+20 new Ekdromoi this year.]
[X] Every five years.
--We should consider oufitting them with short spears and kopises instead of pikes. Phalanxes are very powerful but have very weak flanks. A light infantry that can guard the flanks, and sortie out and close is very important to keeping a phalanx strong.
[X] Boule members from different slates should be free from the coercive power established for the Proboulos before the tribal reforms.
[X] Herodion's Cavalry Veterans, his 'Kleos Exoria' (Ancient Greek for honoured exiles), will teach the cavalrymen of Eretria the skills they have learned from their 10 years ahorse in battle. [-10 Aristocratic opinion].
--absolutely! A strong cavalry rounds out the army and allows great flexibility of both planning and execution.
[X] Stone Quarry [-140 Talents, unlocks Lyceum, Stone Wall, provides domestic source of stone (DOES NOT PROVIDE TRADABLE STONE RESOURCE). One year to build.]
--Walls!
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
he was very close
(mg will come back later, i am very busy right now with my history courses, with about 300 pages of reading a week)
(mg will come back later, i am very busy right now with my history courses, with about 300 pages of reading a week)
- Location
- Mists of Albion
Jeez man, good luck to you with a workload like that... Jeez
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
Would it be possible to propose specialized equipment for Eretrian marines?