Magna Graecia: A City State Quest
- Thread starter Cetashwayo
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Can't wait for the sequel.
I know it's gonna be great.
One thing sticking out to me is that Eritrea is in great need of either serfs or metics to work the land. Sending off the Azetion people's we would have used for serfs to Daxtus has only made the problem more acute. With this in mind, either we attract more metics or we put out the word to incoming traders of our want for serfs. Can't see any other solution.
I know it's gonna be great.
One thing sticking out to me is that Eritrea is in great need of either serfs or metics to work the land. Sending off the Azetion people's we would have used for serfs to Daxtus has only made the problem more acute. With this in mind, either we attract more metics or we put out the word to incoming traders of our want for serfs. Can't see any other solution.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Egalitarianism has never been for barbaroi. Eretria is extraordinarily weird and lenient in extending some of its beliefs to non-citizens like Metics, but they still see Barbaroi as an inferior group that deserve the yoke. Whatever leniency they provide, such as the subject arrangement with the Peuketii that would be seen as extremely bizarre to most Hellenes, is not enough to come close to questioning the underpinnings of a necessary serfdom.
I would recommend, as I have before, that we do not begin to export our modern attitudes to Eretria. The city is already strange enough to mainland Greeks as to cause an apopleptic fit and military coalition against Eretria if they realized what was really going on (and barring the city from the games). No reason to stretch it out of the reasonable deviations of history to something anachronistic.
You would be fine with metics competing then? We've got a good reputation among them, perhaps we'll attract more through our metics.
Night_stalker
Slava Ukraini!
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Would we be able to open up a path for possible Barbaroi to earn some of the lower tiers of citizenship through serfdom, or is that going to be taken poorly?
Not even Metics get citizenship. We're civilised Greeks here, not a bunch of barbaric insane swamp hicks.
- Location
- Europe
Dude, Metics can't earn citizenship. Why would possibly think Barbaroi would be able to?
EDIT: Ninja'ed
- Location
- Southern Virginia
*groan*
Eretria: In the Hellene Uncanny Valley
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
To be honest, most Greeks would find Eretria at best unnerving and at worst an uncanny valley of Barbarians pretending to be citizen Greeks. In almost every way the city's attitude diverge from the rest of Greece, and it is only the relative lack of comprehensive communication between Eretria and the rest of the Greek World that has prevented an uproar. Athens is the baseline for Greek radicalism, and Eretria surpassed that from the very founding of the city; its political performances are performative, the theater's role is marginal, its rituals are far more ad-hoc and less ritualized than in the rest of the Greek World, its cult scene is violently sacrilegious.
As I spoke to @100thlurker last night, there is a possible anecdote that can help reveal things. A prominent Hellene merchant who arrives in Eretria is invited to the home of Drako. Already terribly frightened by what he sees as essentially a city of Barbarians pretending to be Greeks, with all these bizarre, almost Italic rituals and just looseness which he absolutely despises, he goes to the home of Drako. He is comforted by the Hellenic style of the villa, the good behavior of the women and the servants and the whole Oikos, and indeed the food is good. But then he sees Drako, and he is struck speechless. Rather than wearing the curly beard of Greekness, Drako is wearing a thick chin curtain, looking rather more like Honest Abe than Themistokles.
At this point the Hellene merchant is in a full state of shock. He is unable to enjoy his meal. Everything is precisely as he would expect it to be in a Hellene city, and yet in front of him, in front of his face, sits a man who talks like a Greek, walks like a Greek, is by every account a Greek, and yet he has a beard that is not only not Greek, but must have been concocted by some particularly mischievous god as a joke. This is all particularly bad because the Hellene is not able to simply dismiss the city as a failed experiment, as some kind of not normal thing that is absolutely wrong, but must conclude that from its many victories it must have some support from the Gods, which is beginning to cause a blood clot to form in his brain. Apopleptic and absolutely furious, he leaves the home of Drako abruptly, only to be greeted by a cavalryman just on his horse trundling through the city, with a wide-brimmed hat.
Convinced that this cavalryman is a Barbarian, he runs to the gathering assembly to warn them, only to be pushed aside by more cavalrymen, all dismounting off their horses, still wearing their wide-brimmed hats, and jostling through the crowd. At this point already hopelessly confused, the Hellene is on the verge of vomiting as he sees a group of men carry what appears to be a stone idol of a horse to the center of the assembly. One of the cavalrymen approaches the horse, gets on top of it, and begins to address the crowd in perfect traditional oratory. Convinced at this point that at some point during his journey he died, and this is simply an interlude before Hades, the Hellene passes out from heat stroke.
When he awakes, he is immediately accosted by a woman without a chaperone, who tells him that his fainting is blocking the view to the speaking of the representative of the metics in the middle of the crowd. Although near fainting again, he manages to get himself up before seeing an Illyrian-capped man. Realizing that he must be in the midst of some barbarian takeover, he immediately tackles the Illyrian and is promptly arrested by citizens, who throw him in the local jail. Upon asking to be tried by the Metic Court, his troubles only grow more when he is informed that no such thing exists and the Citizens of Eretria will be trying him. Desperately trying to escape, he manages to climb out of the jail and run to the harbour, where he is immediately greeted by another group of merchants. Hoping at least to speak to some members of his class, he is accosted by them for his poor manner and informed that they are all aristocrats that are discussing matters of much import, such as the Carthaginian exploits of their current leader. A leader which left the city voluntarily, worked for accursed Carthaginians, and then was welcome back into the city not only as a citizen but as their new temporary tyrant.
At this point it's too much. He manages to beg a local fisherman to take him to Kerkyra so that he can go back the rest of the way himself. The fisherman smiles and takes him, and it seems like normalcy has returned. However, when the fisherman bizarrely attempts to strike up conversation, the Hellene merchant is informed that he is actually a major captain of the Eretrian navy. The Hellene merchant throws himself over board and attempts to drown, hoping that Poseidon will rescue him from this never-ending nightmare.
When he wakes up he is in Kerkyra in the care of the locals. He asks about the fishermen and they tell him he has gone back to Eretria. Panic-stricken by the fact that this was not in fact a dream, he attempts to form a rational conclusion. After some thought, he decides that somewhere in between their flight from Old Eretria and their arrival in Epulia, the Eretrians mated with centaurs in Illyria and their evil spawn produced Eretria Eskhata. He vows never to go back again and returns to Athens a broken man.
It's not going to work, no. And I'm going to be pre-empting this kind of talk for the sequel, to be clear. You're not going to get everyone to be citizens
As I spoke to @100thlurker last night, there is a possible anecdote that can help reveal things. A prominent Hellene merchant who arrives in Eretria is invited to the home of Drako. Already terribly frightened by what he sees as essentially a city of Barbarians pretending to be Greeks, with all these bizarre, almost Italic rituals and just looseness which he absolutely despises, he goes to the home of Drako. He is comforted by the Hellenic style of the villa, the good behavior of the women and the servants and the whole Oikos, and indeed the food is good. But then he sees Drako, and he is struck speechless. Rather than wearing the curly beard of Greekness, Drako is wearing a thick chin curtain, looking rather more like Honest Abe than Themistokles.
At this point the Hellene merchant is in a full state of shock. He is unable to enjoy his meal. Everything is precisely as he would expect it to be in a Hellene city, and yet in front of him, in front of his face, sits a man who talks like a Greek, walks like a Greek, is by every account a Greek, and yet he has a beard that is not only not Greek, but must have been concocted by some particularly mischievous god as a joke. This is all particularly bad because the Hellene is not able to simply dismiss the city as a failed experiment, as some kind of not normal thing that is absolutely wrong, but must conclude that from its many victories it must have some support from the Gods, which is beginning to cause a blood clot to form in his brain. Apopleptic and absolutely furious, he leaves the home of Drako abruptly, only to be greeted by a cavalryman just on his horse trundling through the city, with a wide-brimmed hat.
Convinced that this cavalryman is a Barbarian, he runs to the gathering assembly to warn them, only to be pushed aside by more cavalrymen, all dismounting off their horses, still wearing their wide-brimmed hats, and jostling through the crowd. At this point already hopelessly confused, the Hellene is on the verge of vomiting as he sees a group of men carry what appears to be a stone idol of a horse to the center of the assembly. One of the cavalrymen approaches the horse, gets on top of it, and begins to address the crowd in perfect traditional oratory. Convinced at this point that at some point during his journey he died, and this is simply an interlude before Hades, the Hellene passes out from heat stroke.
When he awakes, he is immediately accosted by a woman without a chaperone, who tells him that his fainting is blocking the view to the speaking of the representative of the metics in the middle of the crowd. Although near fainting again, he manages to get himself up before seeing an Illyrian-capped man. Realizing that he must be in the midst of some barbarian takeover, he immediately tackles the Illyrian and is promptly arrested by citizens, who throw him in the local jail. Upon asking to be tried by the Metic Court, his troubles only grow more when he is informed that no such thing exists and the Citizens of Eretria will be trying him. Desperately trying to escape, he manages to climb out of the jail and run to the harbour, where he is immediately greeted by another group of merchants. Hoping at least to speak to some members of his class, he is accosted by them for his poor manner and informed that they are all aristocrats that are discussing matters of much import, such as the Carthaginian exploits of their current leader. A leader which left the city voluntarily, worked for accursed Carthaginians, and then was welcome back into the city not only as a citizen but as their new temporary tyrant.
At this point it's too much. He manages to beg a local fisherman to take him to Kerkyra so that he can go back the rest of the way himself. The fisherman smiles and takes him, and it seems like normalcy has returned. However, when the fisherman bizarrely attempts to strike up conversation, the Hellene merchant is informed that he is actually a major captain of the Eretrian navy. The Hellene merchant throws himself over board and attempts to drown, hoping that Poseidon will rescue him from this never-ending nightmare.
When he wakes up he is in Kerkyra in the care of the locals. He asks about the fishermen and they tell him he has gone back to Eretria. Panic-stricken by the fact that this was not in fact a dream, he attempts to form a rational conclusion. After some thought, he decides that somewhere in between their flight from Old Eretria and their arrival in Epulia, the Eretrians mated with centaurs in Illyria and their evil spawn produced Eretria Eskhata. He vows never to go back again and returns to Athens a broken man.
It's not going to work, no. And I'm going to be pre-empting this kind of talk for the sequel, to be clear. You're not going to get everyone to be citizens
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Night_stalker
Slava Ukraini!
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- He/Him
It's not going to work, no. And I'm going to be pre-empting this kind of talk for the sequel, to be clear. You're not going to get everyone to be citizens
What I MEAN IS, work like say.... 3-4 gens as a Serf, move up from being a serf, not into full citizenship. Basically, not a serf, but not voting. Savvy? I could've worded that better, in hindsight.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
No, the unity of Eretria requires a serf underclass or at very least a group who are not citizens. This isn't America and looseness of citizenship could spiral the city into a civil war.
Night_stalker
Slava Ukraini!
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OK, just checking.
Right, new source of labor....
Time to see if there's tribes further inland for "hiring".
- Location
- Europe
Look dude, you're like 2 years late on the whole "is there any way we can expand citizenship to non-citizens?" The answer I got back then was no and it's the same now.
Night_stalker
Slava Ukraini!
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- He/Him
I'm sorry for not memorizing everything in the past nearly 400 pages of the thread.
Moving on, we need to find more locals, simple as that. Or get them starting shit that we can use to take them down.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
At its most basic insofar as Eretria is already a radical experiment that has only been saved from a sacred war of destruction or at the very least expulsion from the games is that it is isolated and most Hellenes interpret Eretria's institutions through their existing schemas. Reaching for unrealistic and anachronistic schemes to do x or y will undermine both the setting and what I think is a very interesting and different society that's still within the bounds of the possible.
It's why I want to focus more on more clear-cut domestic decisions and foreign ones than institution-building, because the answer to most of these attempts is going to be a strongly emphatic no.
It's why I want to focus more on more clear-cut domestic decisions and foreign ones than institution-building, because the answer to most of these attempts is going to be a strongly emphatic no.
- Location
- Orlando, Florida
Right. I apologize for being anachronistic. However, I think creating some sort of Academy and exporting Eretrian values would be an awesome long-term goal.
- Location
- ferreries
Someone has to make an omake of this.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Academies emerged naturally from the social conditions of their city; although cities could provide some funding to philosophers, that kind of active patronage was the thing of tyrants and the monarchs of the Hellenistic period.
Night_stalker
Slava Ukraini!
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That requires those values being accepted, and not just chased out of town at the hands of an angry mob when espoused.
Sol Zagato
senseless brute
So you're saying the Hellene xenophobia level was somewhere up around hilarious?
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- Location
- Orlando, Florida
Well, to be fair, Eretria is already a radical city, so compared to our more prominent innovations I don't see why democratic patronage of the arts or philosophers is so earth-shattering.