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Lyrical Nanoha gets a moe Loli spin-off

Speckled Burd said:
[CONCUSSION INTENSIFIES]

I may not hate it as much as I hate FORCE, but I still really hate Vivid.

Why can't they just make a Nanoha series more in line with the original two, where they give us a reason to actually care about the main characters rather than slogging it down with so many side characters that you can't keep them all straight?
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Because Nanoha has become Superman. No, really she is so strong and wise that she has little need to grow as a character. (without Aesop Amnesia at least) Also, it would be really boring if every series would be like TOS or A´s. If they would never innovated.(Just imagine Nanoha not allowed to grow up forever learning the same message over and over:o) Strikers and TOS have taught me one big lesson that a show can start weak but still can become unforgettable.
So yeah Force and VIVID can get epic fuilling endings like any other Nanoha series.
Besides, what is so terrible about loads of characters? That's how real life work ,you meet new people all the time and many of them have personal little influence on huge events.

And many characters can tell many stories believable. For me it becomes really unbelievable if one character learns to many life changing lessons since this would undermine the worth of the moral.

Also, I like Force since it Forced (no pun intend) the Heros to rethink their ways. ( Better than just DBZ style of powerlevel Inflation)
And by the time they get the antidote + AEC weapons it is evident that in my eyes Hückebein are getting problems for their overrelince on their power and lack of innovation. (like getting friends)
 
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lordhasen said:
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I don't think you understand why I liked the original series and A's, and why I hate StrikerS, Vivid, and Force. It's not just about developing the heroes, it's about developing the antagonists.

In the original series and A's, they developed the main characters, while at the same time developing the antagonists to make them likeable and relatable. For every scene you got of Nanoha and Fate being adorable together in A's, you got a scene of the Wolkenritter being adorable with Hayate. You grew to like the antagonists and were able to on some level relate to what they were doing. It made the conflicts tragic and engaging because both sides had the best of intentions.

StrikerS issue, is in essence, that they didn't devote enough time to explaining much of anything. Unlike in A's or ToS, the antagonists don't receive any character development beyond "vaguely uncertain if they want to work with Doctor Scagglietti" or "total psycho" even though it was as long as the other two seasons combined. Apparently a lot of background information was left out of the series itself and only included in the sound stages, which most people will never be able to find. The reasons for the main plot occurring are at best hazy, since againt most of the background explanations for it are left to side stages, and quite a few of the subplots weren't given enough of the screen time that they needed for anyone to give a shit.


Force is even worse the Huckebeins, like the numbers, are completely flat, which isn't necessarily a bad thing in and of itself, but they're flat in such a way that they're just SO GODDAMN BORING. Not only are they all so edgey that you run the risk of developing cuts on your eyeballs from reading it, but they're all so stupidly invincible that every fight against them is a curbstomp in their favor, even when the specially made weapons to kick their asses are broken out they still mop the floor with everyone.

You say that lots of characters isn't a bad thing? Well it sure as hell is if not a one of them is given development.
 
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Speckled Burd said:
I don't think you understand why I liked the original series and A's, and why I hate StrikerS, Vivid, and Force. It's not just about developing the heroes, it's about developing the antagonists.

In the original series and A's, they developed the main characters, while at the same time developing the antagonists to make them likeable and relatable. For every scene you got of Nanoha and Fate being adorable together in A's, you got a scene of the Wolkenritter being adorable with Hayate. You grew to like the antagonists and were able to on some level relate to what they were doing. It made the conflicts tragic and engaging because both sides had the best of intentions.

StrikerS issue, is in essence, that they didn't devote enough time to explaining much of anything. Unlike in A's or ToS, the antagonists don't receive any character development beyond "vaguely uncertain if they want to work with Doctor Scagglietti" or "total psycho" even though it was as long as the other two seasons combined. Apparently a lot of background information was left out of the series itself and only included in the sound stages, which most people will never be able to find. The reasons for the main plot occurring are at best hazy, since againt most of the background explanations for it are left to side stages, and quite a few of the subplots weren't given enough of the screen time that they needed for anyone to give a shit.


Force is even worse the Huckebeins, like the numbers, are completely flat, which isn't necessarily a bad thing in and of itself, but they're flat in such a way that they're just SO GODDAMN BORING. Not only are they all so edgey that you run the risk of developing cuts on your eyeballs from reading it, but they're all stupidly invincible that every fight against them is a curbstomp in their favor, even when the specially made weapons to kick their asses are broken out they still mop the floor with everyone.

You say that lots of characters isn't a bad thing? Well it sure as hell is if not a one of them is given development.
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Preach it!
 
Speckled Burd said:
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The Hückebein aren´t "stupidly invincible" they get more and more problems as the manga progresses.
Cypha lost the 2nd battle aganist Signum. And later by the time the Antidope had come they don´t even want to fight on instad they try to retreat. Is this how someone invincible would act ?
No. The Hückebein may have been in the overly strong in the beginning, but the heroes thanks to new technologies can fight them on. They are basically doomed once Raptos, Antidope and AEC weapons go into full mass production.


And what about Vandein who btw i see as the true antagonists.
Isn´t his quest for a new Energy source interesting? He basically searches for magical Cold Fusion ,which would propel not only his Family´s and corporation's wealth but also drive the Dimensional civilization to new highs. He has not only "Super"EC power but is also a "repected member of socity"(he is rich) . His Power, status and relative sanity combined makes him far more grievous than any antagonists prior to him in my eyes

Besides, let us not forget that the anime doesn´t have to stick to the manga word by word.
Maybe we see Einhats parents or maybe we see some the Sankt Candal action.
So let us wait and see the anime before we judge it.

But i have to say you at least gave good reasons. And yes StrikerS should have put some of the Soundstages on screen.And maybe give Scaglietti some utopic dream of a world without suffering which he want to build with force.
And I´m very glad you don´t wish for Nanoha to remain the same forever.

Thank you.
 
Speckled Burd said:
Yeah, presented on it's own, StrikerS is alright to above average.

The only problem is it has a bunch of problems which were the series' biggest strengths in previous seasons.
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I liked StrikerS despite it's flaws, but it definitely had flaws. The writers definitely bit off more than they could chew with the worldbuilding, and the pacing was pretty awful. But it did give us Vivio and Subaru, so I'm willing to forgive it a fair bit. In general, I think my opinion of StrikerS can be summed up as "interesting premise, mostly subpar execution with a few really good bits."

Vivid on the other hand just bores me.
 
spacemonkey37 said:
Vivid on the other hand just bores me.
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It's a loli pandering tournament arc without any overarching plot that lacks any reason to be attached to most of the characters beyond "oh, hey, this person was trained by some other character you may or may not care about". They don't even bother to develop the fact that the protagonist should be causing waves just by existing by being clone magic kung fu Jesus to the dominant religion of Mid Childa.
 
Speckled Burd said:
It's a loli pandering tournament arc without any overarching plot that lacks any reason to be attached to most of the characters beyond "oh, hey, this person was trained by some other character you may or may not care about". They don't even bother to develop the fact that the protagonist should be causing waves just by existing by being clone magic kung fu Jesus to the dominant religion of Mid Childa.
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While ViVid is lacking in the plot department, one does begin to develop when they decide to go to the Infinity Library.
 
Speckled Burd said:
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Wouldn´t the knowledge of Vivios existence and/or whereabouts be a secret? So that Vivio can grow up as a Normal Mid Childa child. (She was after all announced as Takamachi Vivio).
In my head canon her existence is only a rumor. Einhart search for "clone of the Sankt Kaiser" was basically asking and fighting for information.
Yes, I believe she asked the same question (where is "clone of the Sankt Kaiser", where is "Flame King of the Hades") everyone she met in her adult form.
Only by pure luck, she actually found the right person.

And I think it isn´t a good idea to make the story revolve around who or what someone IS rather then on what someone does.
Vivio would be reduced to a straw character.:(
She would be the straw cloned Jesus, with no other traits,an empty shell. Everything in the story would be around religion and about fanatics who want to kill Vivio or worship her. No, I want a story on what some does and how the someone form her own destiny with her own decision.

Also Mid Childa is a far more vivid/open planet with it´s contact to other Worlds and it´s magic .People might be cool with Vivio (and with magic they can change her appearance just in case)
 
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lordhasen said:
Wouldn´t the knowledge of Vivios existence and/or whereabouts be a secret? So that Vivio can grow up as a Normal Mid Childa child. (She was after all announced as Takamachi Vivio).
In my head canon her existence is only a rumor. Einhart search for "clone of the Sankt Kaiser" was basically asking and fighting for information.
Yes, I believe she asked the same question (where is "clone of the Sankt Kaiser", where is "Flame King of the Hades") everyone she met in her adult form.
Only by pure luck, she actually found the right person.
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From what I remember of the little Vivid I read, random people at the church sponsored school she went to called her "King/Milady/Emperor/Empress" directly because she's a clone of the Sankt Kaiser.
lordhasen said:
And I think it isn´t a good idea to make the story revolve around who or what someone IS rather then on what someone does.
Vivio would be reduced to a straw character.:(
She would be the straw cloned Jesus, with no other traits,an empty shell. Everything in the story would be around religion and about fanatics who want to kill Vivio or worship her. No, I want a story on what some does and how the someone form her own destiny with her own decision.
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Once again, you have missed my point.

It isn't a matter of Vivio as a character, it's a matter of the world's reaction to that character's established background. It wouldn't reduce her to a shell of what she was, it would flesh out the world by having it react realistically. If tomorrow Jesus had his second coming and there was concrete proof of it actually being him, there would be a reaction from the people of the world. Irrefutable proof of a divine superbeing would shake the foundation of society, science, and many of the worlds religions. But it wouldn't make Jesus any less of a person. The same should be true of Vivio, she should still be the character that she is, but at the same time there should be some sort of reaction from Mid Childan's society about her existence.
 
Speckled Burd said:
From what I remember of the little Vivid I read, random people at the church sponsored school she went to called her "King/Milady/Emperor/Empress" directly because she's a clone of the Sankt Kaiser.
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Well, there many people with some Nobility inside of them, like for example Victoria Dahlgrün who has not only a Butler and Palast but also the power of the Thunder Emperor. So King/Milady/Emperor/Empress isn´t strange and most people simply think that she (Vivio) has been just someone with some noble blood. Only her protectors, Friends, Family and some other Knights in the Church know about her.

Speckled Burd said:
Once again, you have missed my point.
It isn't a matter of Vivio as a character, it's a matter of the world's reaction to that character's established background.
It wouldn't reduce her to a shell of what she was, it would flesh out the world by having it react realistically.
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How can they act realistically? Mid Childa is a world where Magic is an understood science, Dragons and Witches are Real and interdimensional travel is like taking a bus to another city.

Speckled Burd said:
If tomorrow Jesus had his second coming and there was concrete proof of it actually being him, there would be a reaction from the people of the world. Irrefutable proof of a divine superbeing would shake the foundation of society, science, and many of the worlds religions. But it wouldn't make Jesus any less of a person.
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But Vivio isn´t the second coming of Olivie Sägebrecht. She is a clone of a Historical Person.
If we would clone Jesus it wouldn´t shake the foundation of society, science, and many of the world religions. Most people would simply say that without Gods superpowers he isn´t Jesus. And Cloned Jesus would be unhappy because there would be always people who would compare him to the book Jesus in which stories may or may not be fake. Also Cloned Jesus and Vivio would be under Media watch 24 Hours. This can´t be healthy for a childs mental health.
And Olivie Sägebrecht isn´t Jesus . She was "just" a Warlord who ended the an Age of Warlords with an Ancient superweapon.
Olivie Divinity came from her action, so she is more like a Buddha. Jesus Divinity came from the fact that he is the Son of God. (or at least that is what was written in the Bible)

Speckled Burd said:
The same should be true of Vivio, she should still be the character that she is, but at the same time there should be some sort of reaction from Mid Childan's society about her existence.
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Mid-Childan's society =/= Earth Society .
Mid Childan's society is far more vivid than earth. Also Magic is commen knowlege on Mid-Childa. People would propbly care more of the giant Kaijū attacks ,Lost logia weapons and taxes than about the fact that Vivo is a clone of Olivie.

Besides, why would they make her public knowledge? Protecting her would be harder and she would have trouble to find friends. And even if some knowledge about her went public the church could still deny her existence or they could claim her ancestor was a cousin of Olivie.
They would also earn nothing of it.
 
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lordhasen said:
Well, there many people with some Nobility inside of them, like for example Victoria Dahlgrün who has not only a Butler and Palast but also the power of the Thunder Emperor. So King/Milady/Emperor/Empress isn´t strange and most people simply think that she (Vivio) has been just someone with some noble blood. Only her protectors, Friends, Family and some other Knights in the Church know about her.
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It's explicitly a large amount of the church.
lordhasen said:
How can they act realistically? Mid Childa is a world where Magic is an understood science, Dragons and Witches are Real and interdimensional travel is like taking a bus to another city.
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Some sort of schism within the church which worships the Super Magical Godkings about whether or not Vivio counts as a clone? Just because there's magic in the setting doesn't prevent people from being, you know, people.
lordhasen said:
But Vivio isn´t the second coming of Olivie Sägebrecht. She is a clone of a Historical Person.
If we would clone Jesus it wouldn´t shake the foundation of society, science, and many of the world religions. Most people would simply say that without Gods superpowers he isn´t Jesus. And Cloned Jesus would be unhappy because there would be always people who would compare him to the book Jesus in which stories may or may not be fake. Also Cloned Jesus and Vivio would be under Media watch 24 Hours. This can´t be healthy for a childs mental health.
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It's a slightly different case, since the Saint Kaiser's are implied to have been hereditary monarchs. But in this case, something like 24 hour media surveillance should be one of the things happening. It's how a society would react to a child/teen star doing something either impressive or deplorable. Why the hell would it react any differently toward the clone of their God King?

And Olivie Sägebrecht isn´t Jesus . She was "just" a Warlord who ended the an Age of Warlords with an Ancient superweapon.
Olivie Divinity came from her action, so she is more like a Buddha. Jesus Divinity came from the fact that he is the Son of God. (or at least that is what was written in the Bible)
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She has all of the powers of the person that the Saint Church worships, she has proven to have the ability to control the Saint Cradle and she possesses the multicolored magic that is indicative of a member of the Saint Kaiser blood line. She is, for all intents and purposes, the second coming of Olive. Even if she's just a clone she's a clone with all of the powers of the figure that they worship.

THIS SHOULD CAUSE SOMETHING TO HAPPEN IN BOTH THE CHURCH AND IN MID CHILDA.

IT DOESN'T.
 
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Speckled Burd said:
It's explicitly a large amount of the church.
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Maybe some people at the Church HQ. That she is regularly visiting. And maybe some people at the highest level in the church. But Nuns at some planet far of probably don´t know. I don´t even think that the Normal Priest in Cranagan has any idea (besides some rumors) that Vivio might be a Clone.

Speckled Burd said:
Some sort of schism within the church which worships the Super Magical Godkings about whether or not Vivio counts as a clone? Just because there's magic in the setting doesn't prevent people from being, you know, people.
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But at least it would extend the threshold. If you and I could do more or less the same things like Jesus, would Jesus return really be such big of a deal? Especially In a universe where humans always could do Jesus like things.

Speckled Burd said:
It's a slightly different case, since the Saint Kaiser's are implied to have been hereditary monarchs. But in this case, something like 24 hour media surveillance should be one of the things happening. It's how a society would react to a child/teen star doing something either impressive or deplorable. Why the hell would it react any differently toward the clone of their God King?
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First Belka is gone. She may in her future get something like Pope like position if she wants. Second, she would be different than a child/teen star, because she would always be compared to here Parent body. Every time she would do something different than Olivie it would be a huge scandal. Vivio would only strive to become like Olivie and that's terrible because she can´t form her own personality.

Speckled Burd said:
She has all of the powers of the person that the Saint Church worships, she has proven to have the ability to control the Saint Cradle and she possesses the multicolored magic that is indicative of a member of the Saint Kaiser blood line. She is, for all intents and purposes, the second coming of Olive. Even if she's just a clone she's a clone with all of the powers of the figure that they worship.
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You know why they worship Olivie? Not because of her powers her Bloodline or her Super Star ship. No, because she ended a dark era to give the people a chance to build better Worlds. For the expense of her own happiness. That´s Heroism.
She has become a Hero by her own actions, not by her blood. (The other Kaisers would have simply tried to continue their rule for their own power's sake)

Speckled Burd said:
THIS SHOULD CAUSE SOMETHING TO HAPPEN IN BOTH THE CHURCH AND IN MID CHILDA.

IT DOESN'T.
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It´s not public knowledge there for nothing happened.

I have some questions
Why?

Why would the Church make Vivios existence public*?
Why would they risk her and her mother's safety?
Why would they want destroy Vivios Childhood?
Why can´t Vivio just have a happy mostly normal Childhood?
Why should the Church start a huge schism ?
And what can anyone gain by making Vivio public*?

*By public I mean her connection to Olivie is public
 
Speckled Burd said:
something like 24 hour media surveillance should be one of the things happening.
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While I think it should probably have more effect than it does... keep in mind that the TSAB isn't a free democracy. It's quite apparently a very kind and fluffy military dictatorship with some democratic elements. Nanoha and Fate have a truly excessive amount of pull, as does Carim, they're all war heroes, and they all want her left alone. I doubt the media surveilling her is going to be a big issue.
 
Yes, how dare they have a spin off of Nanoha with the little girl side character as the main character. Its not like Nanoha is a spin off of Triangle Heart with the little girl side character as the main character or anything.
 
Speckled Burd said:
But in this case, something like 24 hour media surveillance should be one of the things happening. It's how a society would react to a child/teen star doing something either impressive or deplorable.
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Maybe Mid-Childan news media is more polite about respecting people's privacy?
 
Not exactly fan of Vivid but might give it a try

I like the battles and expanded backstories but the amount of fanservice can be grating to digest.
 
Lyrical Nanoha started as a loli spin-off itself, it's only proper that when the characters grow up, they make another loli spin-off.

Anyway, I'll probably try to watch new episodes after painfully hard work days, so I should be too tired to notice the lack of plot.
 
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