Logan (3rd Wolverine Movie), March 2017

I've got to say, the role of X23 as a major role in story was well executed.
I wasn't sure of going with the young interpretation of Laura instead of teenager or young adult, but the film pulled it off. A teenager character in films are often played by adults with certain body type and a lot of make up on, or other special and practical effects help. A child character cannot be portrayed as such as easily.

Child actors are rarely main characters these days in big films, so it's refreshing to see one do work competently.
I was worried about the issues of the child actor acting badly, or being annoying, but, at least to me, it didn't seem to be the case.

I wouldn't call her the central main character, Logan Wolverine's name is the title after all, but I did think she did well in her supporting secondary major protagonist role.

I'm not sure how it fits into canon, the director of the movie did say he wanted to ignore the continuity mess of the film X Men and make a stand alone good picture with loose connections to the rest of the verse.

Still I wonder if X23 as a character can potentially be a lead in a team X Men film or a solo lead film.

It would be cool. A superhero movie with a young female protagonist would be rare, and as a lead hasn't even happened. Kid hero films in general haven't been seen in recent year, outside of animation.

Female superhero action films in general are rare, with the only ones I recall being Elektra, Catwoman, Supergirl, Aeon Flux. Well female main protagonist character starring films in general are relatively rare.
There's plenty of male ones in recent years, but I'd like to see Fox Films try a few with a female star.
Though I've seen some worry about success. A female led film but be unpopular with some groups or seen as an attack by a few demographics and taking away funds and resources that could be used for 'better' films.
Not to mention a child star cannot be used as a sex object in good taste, and a lot of people, though not everyone, want sex appeal in their media as an important factor for them.

Though if they try to make a film, there's also an issue with merchandising, a major revenue source.
Young Justice for example was cancelled because boys usually buy most superhero toys. Young Justice was attracting more female fans then expected, and less male fans then expected. Both groups had people who were buying toys, but projections estimated on past trends the female groups would buy less toys, so it got cancel, and only got renewed because of being brought to Netflix attention somehow, maybe with a petition, and some ability to get the studio and its assets back together.

Merch is a big deal even for big films beyond initial box office deals. Cars by Disney for example got a boom in sales by young boys, so they doubled down their target demographic focus for the sequels, though that boom died down eventually.
Disney itself as a brandname is sometimes associated with a more kiddie and feminine name, especially by young demographics. Most Disney toys sold for example seem to be the Disney Princess brandline, and while males buy Princess merch sometimes and its seen as more socially acceptable these days to flaunt such merch, the majority or the purchase tracked is young female. And Disney does make Prince and other hero toys, but those get less sales for various reasons. Their biggest sales outside their Disney IP, for general demographics seem to be Star Wars and Marvel, which get a good mix for the films.
 
Black people having lightning powers is a cliche? I've never heard of this before.
It is, but it's not yet a big one. It started with the DC character Black Lightning. Because of Legal issues, they had to create similar but distinct characters for adaptations, thus leading to the disproportionate number of Black heroes with electric powers
 
I expected the movie to be grim, bleak, and violent. It was much grimmer, bleaker, and violenter than that. To be frank I'd describe it as mediocre at best. As this trope notes, it is hard to invest value in a film's plot and care about its characters when it consistently promises nothing but failure and suffering and jerkishness.
Like, the movie wanted me to care about the black family they shacked up with, even though it was painfully obvious that they would be killed off for cheap shock value and the X-team were total idiots for even thinking of staying.
I reminded of Tropic Thunder's line about "you never do a full retard", except here its more "full grimdark". The film overdid it to the point of inducing "I don't care what happens to these guys" which negated its impact.

The film's strongest points were the Wolverine-Professor X banter and X-23, which is, you know what I expecting the primary thing the movie would focus on, that the movie would be unpleasant and violent but still have that as its core. Instead the good stuff largely played second fiddle to gratuitous violence and grimdark hopelessness.
It is as if the director saw the R-rating as an opportunity to go "now I can show what someone of Wolverine's abilities and attitude would really do to people, heck screw that let's have three of them". And not just Wolverine either.

For comparison, I watched the Samurai Jack Season 5 Premiere today. It honestly had a lot of similarities, a lead who is as exhausted and broken down as Wolverine and mentally destabilizing like Professor X, child soldiers, a bleak world of pointless violence and oppression, etc etc. Nevertheless I enjoyed it infinitely more because it wisely chose not to drown me in it, and provided hints of light. And didn't drag on for 2+ fucking hours.
 
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Like, the movie wanted me to care about the black family they shacked up with, even though it was painfully obvious that they would be killed off for cheap shock value and the X-team were total idiots for even thinking of staying.

Except...no it didn't? The pathos in that scene is pretty obviously Charles' death and Laura's capture, the deaths of the family add to the horror of the scene and build on Logan's guilt (It wasn't me, it wasn't me!) but they aren't really more than frosting. You're criticizing the film for not pulling off something it never tried to do.
 
Except...no it didn't? The pathos in that scene is pretty obviously Charles' death and Laura's capture, the deaths of the family add to the horror of the scene and build on Logan's guilt (It wasn't me, it wasn't me!) but they aren't really more than frosting. You're criticizing the film for not pulling off something it never tried to do.
You are just arguing my points for me. And no I didn't care about that either.
 
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I expected the movie to be grim, bleak, and violent. It was much grimmer, bleaker, and violenter than that. To be frank I'd describe it as mediocre at best.
Nothing you have described in your "review" addresses the quality of the film, only your own emotional reaction to it, so I am completely unsure as to where you are getting your judgement of its quality from.
 
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ okay bye then, I guess you aren't interested in a discussion if you're just gonna "concession accepted" me without detail
My point was the movie was laden with gratuitous violence, suffering, and futility that destroyed my ability to care. Your response was I wasn't supposed to care about the happy family being brutally murdered, as that was just random gratuitous violence thrown in a scene that wasn't about about them, but about Professor X suffering and then dying in pursuit of an obviously futile goal.

Nothing you have described in your "review" addresses the quality of the film, only your own emotional reaction to it, so I am completely unsure as to where you are getting your judgement of its quality from.
Maybe because the emotional reaction is the most important fact and you can't argue against it because... well the movie made me feel what it made me feel when I saw it and nothing you say about it can change that? The reasons why it triggered such an emotional reaction are self-explanatory. I didn't give a shit about the characters because I did not feel that movie asked me to give a shit, because all it cared about was raining shit down on everyone so I knew any moment of hope was just a distraction before they 'surprise' you with more shit. I don't resent the movie being dark... I resent it being far darker than it needed to be to do any of the good parts of the movie. I didn't come to see a happy movie, but I didn't come to see Saw either.
 
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My point was the movie was laden with gratuitous violence, suffering, and futility that destroyed my ability to care. Your response was I wasn't supposed to care about the happy family being brutally murdered, as that was just random gratuitous violence thrown in a scene that wasn't about about them, but about Professor X suffering and then dying in pursuit of an obviously futile goal.

Okay, sorry you couldn't enjoy the film.
 
I resent it being far darker than it needed to be to do any of the good parts of the movie. I didn't come to see a happy movie, but I didn't come to see Saw either.
And what were those good parts? How were they contextualized by the rest? What would have been an alternative appropriate? Have you thought about these things?

If it was too bleak for you to care, that's fine. That's a valid reaction. You're entitled to it. Just because it didn't work for you, though, doesn't mean that it doesn't work for most people, you know? You have to contextualize your reaction in the broader understanding of how it works for everyone else to make a qualitative assessment, and I think if you did, you'd find that it works, and you can reconcile these things.
 
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Okay, sorry you couldn't enjoy the film.
And what were those good parts? How were they contextualized by the rest? What would have been an alternative appropriate? Have you thought about these things?

If it was too bleak for you to care, that's fine. That's a valid reaction. You're entitled to it. Just because it didn't work for you, doesn't mean that it doesn't work for most people.
My expectation was that movie would be "Prof X and Wolverine help X-23 become a real person, and in the process rediscover their own humanities... with the bad guys in hot pursuit", or maybe "the last of the X-Men pass on the torch to the next generation, as they reach the end of their own lifespans". To be fair both of those things did in fact happen. But the movie seems far more interested in coming up with creative ways to butcher people and how much suffering it could dump on its protagonists and everyone in their immediate vicinity. I was expecting violence and unpleasantness, but I expected it to be the background around the core story. Instead the story was the background and the grimdark was the foreground. I came here to see "Wolverine struggles to be a person", not "let's see how many ways we can have Wolverine mulch people".

That also has nothing to do with the quality of the film?
Define quality? I mean yes the movie lovingly detailed all the ways in which adamantium claws can render people into inert meat. Or maintaining a consistently bleak and rundown aesthetic. Oh and the acting was good too, not that the movie seemed to care, as that would obviously get in the way of the meat production. There are many works I've seen that have a lot of 'quality' but never managed to get it together into a coherent and compelling narrative full of living characters you can emphasize with.

Let me compare to another movie, the Dark Knight. Its definitely the kind of movie that I'd describe in terms of not enjoying but liking and respecting it, the kind of esteem that Logan was obviously aiming for and described as having. While it was at times gratuitous, it was never excessively so to the degree Logan was, and it made it to serve a purpose, and Heath Ledger's Joker would make me forgive a lot of its sins, unlike Robo-Hands McGee. But overall it left a message of "the hero can't always win and there are terrible costs, but must nevertheless persevere because they can make a difference and what they do matters". Logan was more "nothing matters, suffering and failure for everyone".
 
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I thought the film was ultimately pretty hopeful. I mean I am somewhat displeased it immediately override the mutant apocalypse prevented in DoFP with another one but I can take it on its own merits easily.

In the end it's a story about an exhausted Wolverine with no hope left finally experiencing a family's love, defeating his feral side, and saving a gaggle of kids from becoming just like him. He dies having truly earned the right to call himself an X-Man.
 
Yeah so that was a good movie. I dragged my mother along because I am a terrible person and she was crying by the end. It's almost definitely better with some context to the Xavier/Logan interactions though, because I could feel myself missing subtext. Little context is needed for Laura, though, and she was well-acted and written even by adult character standards.

It didn't quite twist my guts the way some things I've read have, but not for lack of craft.

A few things kind of bugged me, like how Laura seemed to have had a disproportionate force after her compared to the other escapees. It makes the reunion work better, but I'm not sure why it was the case.

Similarly the angry clone thing could've been done a bit more neatly, I think, even if I wouldn't go so far as to call it unnecessary.
 
Let me compare to another movie, the Dark Knight. Its definitely the kind of movie that I'd describe in terms of not enjoying but liking and respecting it, the kind of esteem that Logan was obviously aiming for and described as having. While it was at times gratuitous, it was never excessively so to the degree Logan was, and it made it to serve a purpose, and Heath Ledger's Joker would make me forgive a lot of its sins, unlike Robo-Hands McGee. But overall it left a message of "the hero can't always win and there are terrible costs, but must nevertheless persevere because they can make a difference and what they do matters". Logan was more "nothing matters, suffering and failure for everyone".
Okay, let's try this another way: can you articulate what makes the suffering of the characters in Logan excessive?
 
I came here to see "Wolverine struggles to be a person", not "let's see how many ways we can have Wolverine mulch people".

:jackiechan:

Except that was the movie. They literally personify his own rage and have it chase him across the country after it kills his father figure! And his anger literally ends up killing him! It wasn't subtle!

Define quality? I mean yes the movie lovingly detailed all the ways in which adamantium claws can render people into inert meat. Or maintaining a consistently bleak and rundown aesthetic. Oh and the acting was good too, not that the movie seemed to care, as that would obviously get in the way of the meat production. There are many works I've seen that have a lot of 'quality' but never managed to get it together into a coherent and compelling narrative full of living characters you can emphasize with.

Let me compare to another movie, the Dark Knight. Its definitely the kind of movie that I'd describe in terms of not enjoying but liking and respecting it, the kind of esteem that Logan was obviously aiming for and described as having. While it was at times gratuitous, it was never excessively so to the degree Logan was, and it made it to serve a purpose, and Heath Ledger's Joker would make me forgive a lot of its sins, unlike Robo-Hands McGee. But overall it left a message of "the hero can't always win and there are terrible costs, but must nevertheless persevere because they can make a difference and what they do matters". Logan was more "nothing matters, suffering and failure for everyone".

You keep accusing the film of gratuitously fixating on the violence but man all I'm seeing is someone who really did not pay attention to anything but the violence. The rest of us managed to experience the entire rest of the film just fine.
 
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X-team were total idiots for even thinking of staying.

I'm going to be blunt here, to me this reads like you're complaining about people behaving like people instead of Perfectly Rational Robots.

Yes, fine, it was a mistake. But it was a very human mistake, one that someone desperate for human interaction might make.
 
:jackiechan:

Except that was the movie. They literally personify his own rage and have it chase him across the country after it kills his father figure! And his anger literally ends up killing him! It wasn't subtle!



You keep accusing the film of gratuitously fixating on the violence but man all I'm seeing is someone who really did not pay attention to anything but the violence. The rest of us managed to experience the entire rest of the film just fine.
I really think the whole X-24 was way too on the nose. Like, they come out and say "this is Logan's rage." I guess I was partially wrong in that people could still miss it though.

One of the better critiques I read about the film was that the whole shared bonding should have been about their healing rather than their killing. How they are throwing their bodies into bullets for their friends and beliefs instead of killing for them
 
Okay, let's try this another way: can you articulate what makes the suffering of the characters in Logan excessive?
Were we watching the same movie? Because I'm not going to assemble an annotated list of all the suffering inflicted on the characters in Logan. If you can look at all the violence and misery and say "yes, all of that was 100% necessary in order for the plot and narrative to work" then we're going to have to agree to disagree.

:jackiechan:

Except that was the movie. They literally personify his own rage and have it chase him across the country after it kills his father figure! And his anger literally ends up killing him! It wasn't subtle!
I really think the whole X-24 was way too on the nose. Like, they come out and say "this is Logan's rage." I guess I was partially wrong in that people could still miss it though.

One of the better critiques I read about the film was that the whole shared bonding should have been about their healing rather than their killing. How they are throwing their bodies into bullets for their friends and beliefs instead of killing for them
To wit:
1: Ragerine only shows up like halfway through the movie.
2: Wolverine wasn't especially wrathful at all, he spent the whole movie wanting to be left alone and then fighting back when bothered. Wolverine isn't Kratos, why does he need to absolve himself?
3: Nothing about the Wolverines vs Ragerine battle had anything to do narratively with him overcoming his issues. (ok maybe if you pretend using the suicide bullet to kill the Ragerine but that's just silly symbolism)
4: And that was true for the violence as a whole. The solution to violence was always more violence, with all attempts to run or show mercy ending in failure.
I mean I guess if you want to squint you can see lots of symbolism and metaphors but all I saw was violence and lots of it, drowning out any possible messages by making me cease to care. There was genuine good parts to the movie but I felt it got buried under the frankly unnecessary shit.

I'm going to be blunt here, to me this reads like you're complaining about people behaving like people instead of Perfectly Rational Robots.

Yes, fine, it was a mistake. But it was a very human mistake, one that someone desperate for human interaction might make.
No I could see the hand of author fiat visibly waggling. I mean they repeat the same "let's wait a bit... oh know the enemy caught up" schtick like 5 times. Professor X goes out of the way to get them involved, then goes out of his way to get them to stay.
 
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Were we watching the same movie? Because I'm not going to assemble an annotated list of all the suffering inflicted on the characters in Logan. If you can look at all the violence and misery and say "yes, all of that was 100% necessary in order for the plot and narrative to work" then we're going to have to agree to disagree.



To wit:
1: Ragerine only shows up like halfway through the movie.
2: Wolverine wasn't especially wrathful at all, he spent the whole movie wanting to be left alone and then fighting back when bothered. Wolverine isn't Kratos, why does he need to absolve himself?
3: Nothing about the Wolverines vs Ragerine battle had anything to do narratively with him overcoming his issues. (ok maybe if you pretend using the suicide bullet to kill the Ragerine but that's just silly symbolism)
4: And that was true for the violence as a whole. The solution to violence was always more violence, with all attempts to run or show mercy ending in failure.
I mean I guess if you want to squint you can see lots of symbolism and metaphors but all I saw was violence and lots of it, drowning out any possible messages by making me cease to care. There was genuine good parts to the movie but I felt it got buried under the frankly unnecessary shit.


No I could see the hand of author fiat visibly waggling. I mean they repeat the same "let's wait a bit... oh know the enemy caught up" schtick like 5 times. Professor X goes out of the way to get them involved, then goes out of his way to get them to stay.
A man haunted by his past, literally being chased by the anthropomorphic of his past, who eventually stops running and confronts his past by standing up and sacrificing himself for something that has got him believing again.

I mean come on, it's obvious and cliche
 
I really think the whole X-24 was way too on the nose. Like, they come out and say "this is Logan's rage." I guess I was partially wrong in that people could still miss it though.

One of the better critiques I read about the film was that the whole shared bonding should have been about their healing rather than their killing. How they are throwing their bodies into bullets for their friends and beliefs instead of killing for them

That would be somewhat at cross purposes with the fact that Logan's healing is failing, I think.

Something I realized after seeing the film and reading some reviews: Logan is poisoned by the adamantium in his bones, which Laura also has (At least in her claws) and will likely suffer from eventually. That's a nice hidden metaphor for the daughter inheriting her father's anger despite Logan's attempts to steer her away from becoming him.

1: Ragerine only shows up like halfway through the movie.
2: Wolverine wasn't especially wrathful at all, he spent the whole movie wanting to be left alone and then fighting back when bothered. Wolverine isn't Kratos, why does he need to absolve himself?
3: Nothing about the Wolverines vs Ragerine battle had anything to do narratively with him overcoming his issues. (ok maybe if you pretend using the suicide bullet to kill the Ragerine but that's just silly symbolism)
4: And that was true for the violence as a whole. The solution to violence was always more violence, with all attempts to run or show mercy ending in failure.
I mean I guess if you want to squint you can see lots of symbolism and metaphors but all I saw was violence and lots of it, drowning out any possible messages by making me cease to care. There was genuine good parts to the movie but I felt it got buried under the frankly unnecessary shit.

1. X-24 is teased in the first act after Logan sees the nurse's whistleblower video, but this is an irrelevant complaint anyway.
2. He spends the entire goddamn film ranging from "grumpy" to "human thresher". It's true he only murders when threatened, but the entire rest of the time he's a pretty great representation of someone living 24/7 with anger issues, like when he breaks Caliban's mug.
3. Of course he doesn't overcome his issues! They fucking kill him! Literally! He's not supposed to have some great epiphany, he serves as an example to Laura as he explicitly asks her on his deathbed not to be like him.
4. The fuck were they supposed to do, ask the sociopathic mercenaries working for the genocidal corporation to please stop hunting them? And again, are you missing that this literally leads to Logan's fucking death?

At this point I am seriously starting to wonder if you actually watched the film or skimmed a Wikipedia article.
 
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I'm willing to forgive X-24 being on-the-nose because him being a clone of Wolvie made Xavier's death scene nightmarish as hell to my unsuspecting mind. I was in disbelief all the way up to the shot of the real Logan getting out of the truck, which I think was exactly the imtention. And from then on they avoid basically every single way X-24 could've completely fucked the movie up and kept the focus squarely where it needed to be.
 
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