Letting Go (Worm/Exalted)

[Segev]

I actually think that modeling precogs as divination is the "fair" way to do an Exalted/Worm crossover. One of my personal peeves in "vs" questions ("What happens if a Solar falls into Warhammer 40k?" "Would Superman beat Goku?" "What happens if a level 20 D&D wizard falls into modern USA?") is when one or both sides of the argument try to argue that one of the sides isn't as powerful as it would be "back home" because the laws of nature are so different that their powers stop working. To me, that's not an honest assessment of the interaction the question is looking at.

As an example, given we're working with Exalted here, I'll use the Solar vs. 40k one: I've seen a lot of arguments where the "40k would totally slaughter the hapless Solar" side of the argument tries to claim that there isn't enough Essence to support the Solar's Charms, so he'd be out of it instantly. (The fact that Solars have a mechanic that actually would solve this is irrelevant; the effort to change the question from "Solar vs. 40k" to "Normal guy with a glowing forhead vs. 40k" is what irks me.)

In a lot of ways, the Entities closely resemble Yozis, with Shards being a weird mutant variant on 2nd-circle demons. Actually, no. With Shards being their Charms. They are literally made of Shards, just as Yozis are literally made of Charms. An Exalt is not going to take on an Entity straight-up and win under most circumstances. But an Exalt is also going to be terrifyingly good at building up to a point where, combined with the war machine they can construct, they could do just that. Khepri is not incomparable to a E6 or E7 Exalt.

Using the Entity/Yozi analogy, an Infernal Exalt is particularly interesting: if each Shard is a Charm or Charm Tree, then an Infernal Exalt is able to master multiple Shards. The "that's BS!" complaints about Taylor learning more powers as she goes are quite valid and on point: in a sense, she's harvesting Shards from multiple Entities, where most parahumans get one from one Entity.

 

[TheUnicorn]

I actually think that modeling precogs as divination is the "fair" way to do an Exalted/Worm crossover. One of my personal peeves in "vs" questions ("What happens if a Solar falls into Warhammer 40k?" "Would Superman beat Goku?" "What happens if a level 20 D&D wizard falls into modern USA?") is when one or both sides of the argument try to argue that one of the sides isn't as powerful as it would be "back home" because the laws of nature are so different that their powers stop working. To me, that's not an honest assessment of the interaction the question is looking at.

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Not going to address what would be "fair" in a vs. debate however "fair" is irrelevant for story telling, "what makes a good story" or "what moves the story in the direction the author wants" are what matters.

 

[Segev]

Not going to address what would be "fair" in a vs. debate however "fair" is irrelevant for story telling, "what makes a good story" or "what moves the story in the direction the author wants" are what matters.

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Certainly. Perhaps (ironically) unfairly, I associate "fair" with "what makes it interesting" an awful lot. Not always; I'll be willing to say that "What happens if Superman fights Doctor Watson in a cage match?" isn't interesting without making it an unfair matchup, but in general...

I do think it makes for a more interesting crossover when you meld the worlds rather than saying, "Hah, because of a technicality, I have arbitrarily decided that these things just don't work." Sure, you can argue that the divination-trumping effect is a decision of that sort either way, but given that it is called out explicitly as something about the Exalt...that seems along the same lines as deciding whether what is called "lead" in this crossover actually blocks Superman's X-Ray vision or not because it might not count as "real lead."

Though honestly, the most interesting divination-trumping effects are the explicitly and specific ones, so if Thinker powers worked despite her being an Essence-user, but activating divination-snarling Charms still scrambled Thinker powers, that'd be fine for a narrative.

 

[JadeKaiser]

Though honestly, the most interesting divination-trumping effects are the explicitly and specific ones, so if Thinker powers worked despite her being an Essence-user, but activating divination-snarling Charms still scrambled Thinker powers, that'd be fine for a narrative.

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Though iirc just using essence at all is explicitly a bit of a divination-trumping effect even in base Exalted, for similar reasons to the "shards can't detect essence use" one. Saying that shards can't detect essence use is, in that way, actually maintaining an equal crossover rather than throwing arbitrary nerfs at the Worm side of things due to technical mechanics.

So precog should work just fine on her when she isn't using something like IMS... right up until the moment that she actually starts using essence in a way that would change the outcome of whatever they are 'cogging, at which point their precognition would just show the wrong thing happening. It's just that diviners in Exalted are more accustomed to the idea that their divinations can be thrown wildly off course than people and shards with precog are in Worm.

Actually, that latter is questionable since those same people already have certain holes in their precog: trigger events, endbringers, Scion, Eidolon, etc. Something like an exalt messing with it is nothing new to them, either; it's just a bit less common.

Especially since, as I mentioned earlier, a significant part of what the extended time period of the Cycle is for is to find stuff that the entities don't understand and study it until they do, and can make use of it themselves. That strongly implies that there are going to be things that they just don't understand in some cycles, until they can figure them out.

 

[RyubosJ]

Honestly this problem is because WB made the precognition in Worm "perfect" over long periods of time. Just one case of any of the high level precogs being wrong would make people way happier with crossovers, we would get less OCP claims and less "contessa would know".

Anyway that's my piece for the whole thing, just stop assuming precognition is perfect in base worm, that they can be wrong on the long term, and therefore new data can for a while fuck the shard's predictions till they adapt

 

[Segev]

Though iirc just using essence at all is explicitly a bit of a divination-trumping effect even in base Exalted, for similar reasons to the "shards can't detect essence use" one. Saying that shards can't detect essence use is, in that way, actually maintaining an equal crossover rather than throwing arbitrary nerfs at the Worm side of things due to technical mechanics.

So precog should work just fine on her when she isn't using something like IMS... right up until the moment that she actually starts using essence in a way that would change the outcome of whatever they are 'cogging, at which point their precognition would just show the wrong thing happening. It's just that diviners in Exalted are more accustomed to the idea that their divinations can be thrown wildly off course than people and shards with precog are in Worm.

Actually, that latter is questionable since those same people already have certain holes in their precog: trigger events, endbringers, Scion, Eidolon, etc. Something like an exalt messing with it is nothing new to them, either; it's just a bit less common.

Especially since, as I mentioned earlier, a significant part of what the extended time period of the Cycle is for is to find stuff that the entities don't understand and study it until they do, and can make use of it themselves. That strongly implies that there are going to be things that they just don't understand in some cycles, until they can figure them out.

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In general, the "essence screws with Destiny" thing is more a crutch to wave away "PCs can't actually be predicted by the ST" than it is a real barrier to divination working when it's convenient to the plot. Essence-use muddles it, but doesn't utterly eliminate it. Even Exalted can have Destinies (though it's rare, because generally having an Exaltation trumps any Destiny you might bear). Which is why there's a "yes, technically, but" on the "essence screws with precog" argument, where I would say that Charms that specifically make divination fail to work properly would trump precogs.

Standard Essence-use might make precognition say, "Okay, you're being weird, but I can figure out the end state...close enough," but Infernal Monster Form or Black Mirror Shintai or the like would actively grab the Thinker power and say, "Nope, you're getting what I tell you you're getting, Bub."

 

[SwiftRosenthal]

In general, the "essence screws with Destiny" thing is more a crutch to wave away "PCs can't actually be predicted by the ST" than it is a real barrier to divination working when it's convenient to the plot. Essence-use muddles it, but doesn't utterly eliminate it. Even Exalted can have Destinies (though it's rare, because generally having an Exaltation trumps any Destiny you might bear). Which is why there's a "yes, technically, but" on the "essence screws with precog" argument, where I would say that Charms that specifically make divination fail to work properly would trump precogs.

Standard Essence-use might make precognition say, "Okay, you're being weird, but I can figure out the end state...close enough," but Infernal Monster Form or Black Mirror Shintai or the like would actively grab the Thinker power and say, "Nope, you're getting what I tell you you're getting, Bub."

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There's also Stunting to consider. When an Exalt does something cool enough, the normal laws of physics go out the window as the universe kneels down and rewards the Exalt for being such a badass.

That's TTGL-tier, "The chance of my success was literally 0% and I did it anyway," stuff. There's little to nothing that divination can do to account for that.

 

[Segev]

There's also Stunting to consider. When an Exalt does something cool enough, the normal laws of physics go out the window as the universe kneels down and rewards the Exalt for being such a badass.

That's TTGL-tier, "The chance of my success was literally 0% and I did it anyway," stuff. There's little to nothing that divination can do to account for that.

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Eh, yes and no. Stunting adds 1-3 dice to your die pool. Yes, it means that doing something crazy-awesome is more likely to work than something sensible, but it doesn't usually make things possible that weren't before. It skews probability, but not to a breaking point.

Now, if you wanted to try to get the environment-modifying rules for 2+ die stunting into something other than game mechanics, it would get weird FAST, but those rules are not meant to represent an Exalt actually creating new things in the environment; they're a gameplay tool to give PLAYERS the freedom to creatively assume that props they need to do cool stuff are there.

When the player does a 2-die stunt to swing down from the chandelier onto the stage, it does put a chandelier there for him to do so. But the in-game assumption is that it was always there, and the ST just never described it, not that the heroic PC reality-warped a chandelier into existence. (That's the province of Raksha. Who totally would warp reality to put a dramatic element in play to work off of, even if it explicitly wasn't there a moment ago.)

...and if you want to talk about screwing with precogs, holy cow Fair Folk.

 

[JadeKaiser]

In general, the "essence screws with Destiny" thing is more a crutch to wave away "PCs can't actually be predicted by the ST" than it is a real barrier to divination working when it's convenient to the plot. Essence-use muddles it, but doesn't utterly eliminate it. Even Exalted can have Destinies (though it's rare, because generally having an Exaltation trumps any Destiny you might bear). Which is why there's a "yes, technically, but" on the "essence screws with precog" argument, where I would say that Charms that specifically make divination fail to work properly would trump precogs.

Standard Essence-use might make precognition say, "Okay, you're being weird, but I can figure out the end state...close enough," but Infernal Monster Form or Black Mirror Shintai or the like would actively grab the Thinker power and say, "Nope, you're getting what I tell you you're getting, Bub."

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That's pretty much what I said, give or take a few details. Essence use screws with divination/precog by making the result turn out different from what it was "supposed" to be sometimes, but it doesn't just take a wrecking ball to the whole concept. You need something like IMF for that.

Really, I think that we are at least close enough to agreeing for government work, so we probably don't need to keep bouncing the topic back and forth between us anymore.

 

[Segev]

That's pretty much what I said, give or take a few details. Essence use screws with divination/precog by making the result turn out different from what it was "supposed" to be sometimes, but it doesn't just take a wrecking ball to the whole concept. You need something like IMF for that.

Really, I think that we are at least close enough to agreeing for government work, so we probably don't need to keep bouncing the topic back and forth between us anymore.

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Agreed.

Though having brought them up, now I do wonder if Raksha might follow HWLM's path into this Creation and start...playing. And how Glastig Uaine would react.

 

[Electric Heart]

I actually liked the omake more but well....why not?

 

[Faraway-R]

Agreed.

Though having brought them up, now I do wonder if Raksha might follow HWLM's path into this Creation and start...playing. And how Glastig Uaine would react.

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That would depend on the metaphysical location of Earth Bet in relation to the Wyld. We can safely assume that Wyld is infinite... However, it isn't all-encompassing, as in it doesn't necessarily border every realm of existence. Malfeas, Underworld, Heaven, and Autochtonia are all separate from the Wyld in a way Creation isn't. Neither does Wyld encroach into Elsewhere, though it can be accessed from the Wyld.

For the purposes of this discussion, we can safely assume there is a possibility of existence of a path that can take someone from Creation and neighboring realms of existence, to Earth Bet. It's how HWLM got there. Since Wyld can encroach on Creation, it's equally possible that a Raksha will be able to make use of it. The question then becomes one of accessibility. Because for the purposes of this discussion, Autochtonia circa five days prior to Usurpation is different from the theoretical path to Earth Bet only in that the existence and location of the path to it, The Seal of Eight Divinities, was known. But even First Age Solars fell short of breaching it, to give you a measure of how difficult it was to access.

 

[serra2]

Honestly this problem is because WB made the precognition in Worm "perfect" over long periods of time. Just one case of any of the high level precogs being wrong would make people way happier with crossovers, we would get less OCP claims and less "contessa would know".

Anyway that's my piece for the whole thing, just stop assuming precognition is perfect in base worm, that they can be wrong on the long term, and therefore new data can for a while fuck the shard's predictions till they adapt

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Contessa failing to kill Lung in their first meeting? The Simurgh's entire method of carrying out plots? Eden slamming in to the planet? Do those count?
Admittedly, in Worm we are pretty much watching, like, 8 months of a 2 year period in a world that has had parahumans for 25+ years. The only examples of Thinkers we get in the series are all stupidly high powered, rather than the fairly more common ones we are told exist.

 

[Sapphite]

Man, I've got to start responding to things quicker.

This isn't necessarily the case. If we assume the precog shards are even remotely well programmed they'd take advantage of the fact that they spend 99% of the time not in use. Dinah for example can only ask something like five questions per day. Even being wildly generous and assuming that somehow took five minutes that still leaves 99.7% of the day free.

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That's interesting. I always thought that Thinker headaches had less to do with conserving energy and more to do with promoting conflict. To me, that's why Lisa and Dinah were able to use their powers for longer periods of time before the headaches kicked in over the course of the story. They were engaging in conflict and feeding the shards' need for data, so the shards rewarded them with less frequent pain. If it was to conserve energy, they should be getting less amount of time to use their powers, not more.

We've also got to consider how adaptable individual shards are.

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I'd say their rather flexible. Remember, the whole reason for the cycle is for the shards to learn and grow. They're made to take in data and change over time. That's the whole reason why budding and second trigger events are even possible.

I'm not sure the Shards are capable of the level of self-alteration required to factor in the possibility that the laws of physics may be temporarily rewritten at any given moment.

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I don't know, altering reality is something the shards do already. That's more or less how Labyrinth's power works.

Given that thier sensory abilities do NOT allow them to sense essence and their models are for a universe without essence this would actually make it more difficult for them to work out what is going on.

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But why are you making the assumption they can't sense Essence? Remember, Essence is most likely a part of Earth Bet's reality, or else Taylor would be incapable of refilling her mote pools. It doesn't have to be as ubiquitous as it is in Creation, but it should be present. If that is the case, why wouldn't the Entities be capable of detecting it?

I actually think that modeling precogs as divination is the "fair" way to do an Exalted/Worm crossover.

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Okay, here's my problem with this. First of all, there is no Art of Divination in Exalted, it's called the Art of Astrology. It does not peer through the mists of time to divine the future, or calculate probabilities to predict the future, it studies the movement of the stars to gain a sneak peek into the Bureau of Destiny's to-do list. That's why things that interfere with the Loom interfere with the Art of Astrology. There is no precognition involved with the Art of Astrology.

Compare that with the effects that do model the future and you see they aren't bothered with Loom shenanigans or Essence use. The Science of Probabilistics was designed to be used in an environment where every person, god, and Exalt is considered outside fate. Things that screw with the Loom have no effect on it.

Though iirc just using essence at all is explicitly a bit of a divination-trumping effect even in base Exalted

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No, just things that interact with the Loom of Fate. Which again, does not predict the future.

 

[TheUnicorn]

But why are you making the assumption they can't sense Essence?

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1)Why Not?
2)Because it's a source of energy they aren't familiar with.
3)Because as noted it doesn't fit with the Entities model of the universe.

Remember, Essence is most likely a part of Earth Bet's reality

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Not necaserily, it could be something the Yozi brought with him, or that only just started leaking in, or as you said something that existed all along...it just didn't affect the material universe.

 

[Segev]

I say it's "fair" to consider precog to be divination because of narrative convenience more than anything else. But from the "it's predictive modeling/it's astrology" angle, it actually is even STRONGER reason for them to be considered the same.

Astrology is all about reading the code-lines of Fate for what is going to happen based on the physics model that Fate is, calculating forward from a current known state. Precog, as done in Worm, is exactly the same thing, just using a different medium to start the predictive modeling. In either case, "normal" Essence-use can cause weirdness, but shouldn't outright interfere. Loom-snarling Charms should interfere with both, because they (as I said before) metaphorically grab the predictive agent by the lapels and shake it while screaming bad data or fixed data into its face.

When your predictive modeler is too busy being shaken around while somebody screams "THE MONSTER IS HERE!!!!" at it to do its delicate calculations, for example, it's going to only be able to report what it's being fed.

When you've got a subtler but still deliberately deceptive effect telling your predictive modeler, "No, this is totally not Taylor Hebert; it's actually Sophia Hess with a Motivation to prove that she desperately needs and deserves the support and help of others," the predictive modeler is going to generate bad predictions because it believes that to be true.

 

[UberJJK]

That's interesting. I always thought that Thinker headaches had less to do with conserving energy and more to do with promoting conflict. To me, that's why Lisa and Dinah were able to use their powers for longer periods of time before the headaches kicked in over the course of the story. They were engaging in conflict and feeding the shards' need for data, so the shards rewarded them with less frequent pain. If it was to conserve energy, they should be getting less amount of time to use their powers, not more.

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First it's important to remember that Shards, or at least the living Shards, are programmed to run for 300 years since that is how long the cycle lasts. If you know how much energy a use requires, how much total energy you have, and how long that energy needs to last it's easy to calculate how many uses per day are allowed.

Setting that aside I think you are right in that their powers allow them more uses per day as they synchronize (IE: generate more conflict). That doesn't actually make a difference though since such a reward system is easily accomplished by setting their initial usage threshold below the maximum level and slowly build up to that maximum level.

The calculations get more complex when you factor in things like second triggers and budding but it's still quite doable.

I'd say their rather flexible. Remember, the whole reason for the cycle is for the shards to learn and grow. They're made to take in data and change over time. That's the whole reason why budding and second trigger events are even possible.

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Are they though? We never see any power change in any significant way in Worm. We see restrictions, like Taylor's range or Tattletale's usage, get lowered but nothing about the powers themselves ever seems to change.

It's quite possible that shards only change between cycles with the Entities collecting them at the end of the cycle, analyzing all the data generated, and making changes based on the data. Honestly that fits better with the initial description of how the whole process was created:

The one that occupies the structure has bred, now, fragmented into clusters of shards that could occupy others.

Some shards have different focuses. This is the experiment, the test.

Of these plants, some thrive. Others die.

The creature tests different capacities, different clusters of shards. It watches, observes and records events into memory.

It borrows of the conflict and stress of this new, alien species. It borrows of the evolution, of the learning, of the crisis. In some ways, it is a symbiote. In others…

Parasite.

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Shards are attached to hosts, the ones that perform the best are successes, the ones who don't are failures.

I don't know, altering reality is something the shards do already. That's more or less how Labyrinth's power works.

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As I understand it they don't actually alter reality. All the Entities' powers are "suppose" to work within the laws of physics in the Worm verse. Labyrinth doesn't alter reality, she likely uses the Entities' dimensional transfer abilities to draw people into a pocket reality and alters that reality by partially transferring things from other realities into it. All of this works within the laws of physics for the Worm verse.

If the Entities' could alter reality then they wouldn't be searching for a way to beat thermodynamics since they could just alter reality such that it wasn't a concern. After all Exalted can create new matter, hell full on new reality, out of the Wyld which is as clear cut a violation of thermodynamics as you can get.

 

[Segev]

Yeah, discovering the Wyld would solve the Entities' problems. Introducing a whole bunch of new existential ones, but solve the ones they're fixated on.

The Wyld is a walking violation of the first law of Thermodynamics. And it is literally walking. And crawling. And slithering. And swimming. And moving-by-singing. And staying perfectly still while churning ceaselessly. And other things we lack words for because stop looking at it your brain will go imagination-blind.

 

[Datakim]

I'd say their rather flexible. Remember, the whole reason for the cycle is for the shards to learn and grow. They're made to take in data and change over time. That's the whole reason why budding and second trigger events are even possible.

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Probably true, but they still need time. Also I wonder if they might be less able to adapt here, due to the fact that the thinker entity is dead. I could see one of Edens roles having been dealing with anomalies like Taylor. Also do we know if shards communicate with each other on their own? If Dinahs shard figures something out, does that automatically mean that Coil and Contessa know it too, or would their shards have to figure things out independently.

I also wonder how Edens shards being "dead" affects things. Perhaps Dinahs Zion-shard would be noticably more capable of adapting, compared to Coils Eden-shard.

I don't know, altering reality is something the shards do already. That's more or less how Labyrinth's power works.

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Probably depends on how things work in the background. Labyrinths power is her shard working through "standard" physics, whereas Taylor would do her things through essence. Same end result perhaps, but shards might have far more trouble understanding reality alteration done with Constructive Convergence Of Principles (or the Revlid equivalents if you go homebrew).

But why are you making the assumption they can't sense Essence? Remember, Essence is most likely a part of Earth Bet's reality, or else Taylor would be incapable of refilling her mote pools. It doesn't have to be as ubiquitous as it is in Creation, but it should be present. If that is the case, why wouldn't the Entities be capable of detecting it?

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Maybe they can sense essence. However they atleast don't understand it all that well, since we have seen that they have trouble with it. Note that Coils power failed utterly for the five days when Taylor was in the chrysalis. She was not actually doing much while in it, so his shard was presumably "jammed" by the high concentration of essence involved. In this story atleast.

Compare that with the effects that do model the future and you see they aren't bothered with Loom shenanigans or Essence use. The Science of Probabilistics was designed to be used in an environment where every
person, god, and Exalt is considered outside fate. Things that screw with the Loom have no effect on it.

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Strictly speaking, everyone in Autochtonia is part of the Design (basically Loom 2.0), and the most powerfull part of SoP appeals to the Design Weavers.

Though the basic point is valid, and the shards can learn to try and predict Taylor. However exaltations are implied to be complex enough to resist easy analysis (especially when fused with a host), so the shards cannot just "scan" it and learn everything. Which means they would have to learn through observation, which is made more difficult by the fact that Taylor can learn new charms.

 

[Graypairofsocks]

No, just things that interact with the Loom of Fate. Which again, does not predict the future.

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Yeah, I have seen a bunch of occasions where people say it predicts the future.

It's called the Loom of fate, it weaves fate.

I say it's "fair" to consider precog to be divination because of narrative convenience more than anything else. But from the "it's predictive modeling/it's astrology" angle, it actually is even STRONGER reason for them to be considered the same.

Astrology is all about reading the code-lines of Fate for what is going to happen based on the physics model that Fate is, calculating forward from a current known state. Precog, as done in Worm, is exactly the same thing, just using a different medium to start the predictive modeling. In either case, "normal" Essence-use can cause weirdness, but shouldn't outright interfere. Loom-snarling Charms should interfere with both, because they (as I said before) metaphorically grab the predictive agent by the lapels and shake it while screaming bad data or fixed data into its face.

When your predictive modeler is too busy being shaken around while somebody screams "THE MONSTER IS HERE!!!!" at it to do its delicate calculations, for example, it's going to only be able to report what it's being fed.

When you've got a subtler but still deliberately deceptive effect telling your predictive modeler, "No, this is totally not Taylor Hebert; it's actually Sophia Hess with a Motivation to prove that she desperately needs and deserves the support and help of others," the predictive modeler is going to generate bad predictions because it believes that to be true.

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Precog has more in common with a person thinking of what will happen, than it does with the art of divination.

Most Loom snarling things don't snarl peoples brains as well.

 

[Segev]

Note that I said "fair," not necessarily "the only way to make it make sense." I chose the term - scare quotes and all - based on the idea of not allowing something to avoid an explicitly-stated power of one side by a technicality on the other.

"Oh, your red dragon is immune to fire energy, but that's not going to stop this perfectly ordinary napalm from burning it because in our world fire isn't an energy type; it's just chemical reactions and natural heat."

"Oh, you're immune to divination and the like, but precog isn't really divination because it technically does the same thing but doesn't use the same terminology so you're not immune to that."

 

[Graypairofsocks]

Note that I said "fair," not necessarily "the only way to make it make sense." I chose the term - scare quotes and all - based on the idea of not allowing something to avoid an explicitly-stated power of one side by a technicality on the other.

"Oh, your red dragon is immune to fire energy, but that's not going to stop this perfectly ordinary napalm from burning it because in our world fire isn't an energy type; it's just chemical reactions and natural heat."

"Oh, you're immune to divination and the like, but precog isn't really divination because it technically does the same thing but doesn't use the same terminology so you're not immune to that."

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Usually, In the case of fire immunity (like with things made out of fire or some dragons) it is the end product they are immune too, the mechanism doesn't really matter.

In the second case, they aren't immune to end product of having their actions predicted. It is a specific mechanism that is being interfered with.
Otherwise you could end up with silly things like "I'm immune to divination, and using your brain to think about what I will do counts as divination. Enjoy your brain damage.".

If you want it to block it for thematic purposes, then you have to change how the precog works.

 

[JadeKaiser]

Usually, In the case of fire immunity (like with things made out of fire or some dragons) it is the end product they are immune too, the mechanism doesn't really matter.

In the second case, they aren't immune to end product of having their actions predicted. It is a specific mechanism that is being interfered with.
Otherwise you could end up with silly things like "I'm immune to divination, and using your brain to think about what I will do counts as divination. Enjoy your brain damage.".

If you want it to block it for thematic purposes, then you have to change how the precog works.

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No you don't. What you are saying is silly; narrative reasoning is as good as any other, and in some cases becomes necessary. Cases like this one, where if the writer doesn't make precog and divination equivalent as far as charm use goes, they are breaking parts of the Exalted side of the crossover over their knee.

This is even more the case when the things in question are from Exalted, and moreso still for charms that originated from the Yozi; narrative is a big deal in Exalted, and not just because of the Loom of Fate. Rather, it is a Big Deal to the Loom because the Loom was made by the Primordials, whom originated from the Wyld. For their charms to work on a narrative basis at least as much as they do a mechanical one is not only reasonable, it is to be expected.

You are also being arrogant, in saying that your interpretation must be the only viable one mechanically when there are several other people who have given very logical means by which another interpretation would or could work. In at least my eyes, you have not even come close to disproving any of these, yet at this point you are talking as though your argument were already proven as the mechanically correct one.

Newsflash: the reason why most people who had been talking about it before aren't arguing with you isn't because you have disproven their points. It's because most of us have gotten tired of the topic and moved on entirely.

 

[Graypairofsocks]

No you don't. What you are saying is silly; narrative reasoning is as good as any other, and in some cases becomes necessary. Cases like this one, where if the writer doesn't make precog and divination equivalent as far as charm use goes, they are breaking parts of the Exalted side of the crossover over their knee.

This is even more the case when the things in question are from Exalted, and moreso still for charms that originated from the Yozi; narrative is a big deal in Exalted, and not just because of the Loom of Fate. Rather, it is a Big Deal to the Loom because the Loom was made by the Primordials, whom originated from the Wyld. For their charms to work on a narrative basis at least as much as they do a mechanical one is not only reasonable, it is to be expected.

You are also being arrogant, in saying that your interpretation must be the only viable one mechanically when there are several other people who have given very logical means by which another interpretation would or could work. In at least my eyes, you have not even come close to disproving any of these, yet at this point you are talking as though your argument were already proven as the mechanically correct one.

Newsflash: the reason why most people who had been talking about it before aren't arguing with you isn't because you have disproven their points. It's because most of us have gotten tired of the topic and moved on entirely.

Click to shrink...

What is wrong with changing it for thematic purposes?
Why does it break Exalted over the Knee?

Where did I say that about my interpretation? What is wrong with my interpretation?



There are basically 2 interpretations that people gave:
1: It interferes with precog, because it prevents divination.
2: It interferes with precog, because its something they haven't seen before.

The first interpretation is more problematic, and is false unless you change stuff.

Now lets assume that something that snarls fate (like IMF) will also disable precog.
Worm precog works the same way as person solving a problem. Like which way a ball will fly, or what is 1 + 1.
This means if something like IMF prevents precog from working, it means it has disabled the ability to think.
This means everyone, including the person who activated it, will lose the ability to think.

Now that assumption about IMF is false, even in the context of Exalted. Snarling fate doesn't mean disabling precog, or even all divination. It means it screws with the loom of fate. This has been mentioned earlier in the thread. To make it work you have to change how precog works, and how snarling fate works.

The second makes more sense, but doesn't work in some cases.

At the high end you have stuff like Contessa. PtV shouldn't be hampered by it (unless you change stuff).
PtV can read brains. Exalted have brains. Unless you have 0 idea how your powers work, it will also know how they work and what they can do.
PtV was built to deal with outside problems. It has to be good at adapting.

 

[azoicennead]

This means if something like IMF prevents precog from working, it means it has disabled the ability to think.

Click to shrink...

Or it means it has disabled the ability to think in a very specific way that involves using unnatural means to predict events, because Exalted is entirely willing to do that kind of thing.