Let's read Worm and its sequel Ward by Wildbow (One chapter/every day)

blackarrow · Dec 21, 2019

The Richmaster said:
Friendship is the best ship

The wards were spcificall meant o not be soldiers

Well, I talked with some people about Wards and they called Vista a child soldier and they weren't wrong. The Wards were basically trained to do cop job (stop/arrest the villains) and military job (fight against Endbringers to protect nations). Their work is very similar to a combination between military/cop job, the only difference is that instead of using guns they use their superpowers. But superpowers are not enough. There are more like a parahuman's main gun. But a main gun isn't enough. There are many cases when these heroic parahumans need additional guns (like fireguns) to continue to fight when they can't use (for various reasons) their main gun. Vista is great with her power but she still needed a gun to take her enemies down (when they attacked her too fast for her to have time using her power) as she already did in this Chapter. Tattletale's power is great but not great enough to protect her if her enemies physically attack her. Even Taylor with her very versatile power couldn't survive to many life and death situations without being good at hand to hand combat and without her trusty baton/handgun.
Powers are cool and everything but a good combat training and some real weapons are even better. Not everyone is Contessa or Number Man, to be able to turn the most mundane objects into weapons

.
If you know X-Men (my favorite superhero franchise of all times) the mutants there (some of them having almost God like powers) are also very skillful in any type of non-powered combat (including using weapons) because they know that their powers are not enough against so many powerful and cunning enemies they have. And they proved to be pretty right many, many times.

The Richmaster · Dec 23, 2019

Okay, first off, sorry for the incomplete message last time; my laptop is being repaired and my library time ran out just as I was typing that up

blackarrow said:
I'm surprised that PRT never trained the parahumans into using fireguns (not for killing but for defending themselves; they can shoot their enemy in leg or hand, for example and they'll be still alive) and hand to hand combat. PRT SUCKS for thinking that if a parahuman have superpowers then nothing can hurt or kill them . Bullshit, train your Wards/Protectorate like real soldiers, their powers alone won't save them from shitty situations like THIS ONE. But PRT sucked in many ways so...why I'm surprised? (btw Miss Militia must be NRA favorite superhero and the living symbol of the Second Amendment). Guns are cool if you know how and when to use them and Vista and Tattletale seem to understand it .

blackarrow said:
Well, I talked with some people about Wards and they called Vista a child soldier and they weren't wrong. The Wards were basically trained to do cop job (stop/arrest the villains) and military job (fight against Endbringers to protect nations). Their work is very similar to a combination between military/cop job, the only difference is that instead of using guns they use their superpowers. But superpowers are not enough. There are more like a parahuman's main gun. But a main gun isn't enough. There are many cases when these heroic parahumans need additional guns (like fireguns) to continue to fight when they can't use (for various reasons) their main gun. Vista is great with her power but she still needed a gun to take her enemies down (when they attacked her too fast for her to have time using her power) as she already did in this Chapter. Tattletale's power is great but not great enough to protect her if her enemies physically attack her. Even Taylor with her very versatile power couldn't survive to many life and death situations without being good at hand to hand combat and without her trusty baton/handgun.
Powers are cool and everything but a good combat training and some real weapons are even better. Not everyone is Contessa or Number Man, to be able to turn the most mundane objects into weapons .
If you know X-Men (my favorite superhero franchise of all times) the mutants there (some of them having almost God like powers) are also very skillful in any type of non-powered combat (including using weapons) because they know that their powers are not enough against so many powerful and cunning enemies they have. And they proved to be pretty right many, many times.

What I was trying to say (before the computer timed out) is that the Wards are advertised as a safe place for children to learn to use their powers; they're not actually supposed to see "real combat". Brockton Bay is in no way a normal city.

I do agree that the people who are serious about joining the Protectorate and actual Protectorate member should get proper weapons training but actual weapons should only be used in emergency situations.

It's important to remember that the heroes are supposed to be that, heroes. Public perception is important because they are a government organisation and that one of the more important jobs of the PRT is to try and make Parahumans look non-threatening to help prevent public panic.

blackarrow said:
What you'e doing with Breed's victims? Kill them. Its the only solution. Hate when mercy killing become the last solution but I doubt that even someone like Scapegoat can save them.

Scapegoat's power probably could but I frankly wouldn't blame him for not wanting to take that sort of thing on himself and he would need to have a suitable target to put it into or he'd get eaten

blackarrow said:
-Weaver convinced Eidolon to fly away but he's still a jerk who see himself as an absolute indispensable hero. Well, you're not indispensable, you jerk. Weaver showed you that they don't need you, especially when they have to fight someone like Jack who's so good at manipulating parahumans.

Well, for one, Weaver in no way said she could replace Eidolon and the is no doubt that he could have handled this a lot more easily than the Brockton group; she was literally just saying "if you go evil, we're not good enough to stop you"

[... my library time is running out again; give me a few minutes to log back in so I can edit this]

EDIT:
Second, one thing that I've noticed when reading Wildbow's works is that phrasing is important; just try to re-read this part without any bias:

Sting 16.3 said:
His voice was quiet enough that I was probably the only one who could hear.
"I live for this," he said. "It's what I do."
It was an admission of weakness, not a boast

Does that really sound like a jerk just throwing his weight around to you?

Also, on a unrelated note, I just recently caught up with with Ward and while I wont' spoil any event, I ill say that it carries on certain themes in ways that I wasn't expecting but make a lot of sense thinking back on it.

blackarrow · Dec 23, 2019

The Richmaster said:
Okay, first off, sorry for the incomplete message last time; my laptop is being repaired and my library time ran out just as I was typing that up

What I was trying to say (before the computer timed out) is that the Wards are advertised as a safe place for children to learn to use their powers; they're not actually supposed to see "real combat". Brockton Bay is in no way a normal city.

I do agree that the people who are serious about joining the Protectorate and actual Protectorate member should get proper weapons training but actual weapons should only be used in emergency situations.

It's important to remember that the heroes are supposed to be that, heroes. Public perception is important because they are a government organisation and that one of the more important jobs of the PRT is to try and make Parahumans look non-threatening to help prevent public panic.

Scapegoat's power probably could but I frankly wouldn't blame him for not wanting to take that sort of thing on himself and he would need to have a suitable target to put it into or he'd get eaten

Well, for one, Weaver in no way said she could replace Eidolon and the is no doubt that he could have handled this a lot more easily than the Brockton group; she was literally just saying "if you go evil, we're not good enough to stop you"

[... my library time is running out again; give me a few minutes to log back in so I can edit this]

EDIT:
Second, one thing that I've noticed when reading Wildbow's works is that phrasing is important; just try to re-read this part without any bias:

Does that really sound like a jerk just throwing his weight around to you?

Also, on a unrelated note, I just recently caught up with with Ward and while I wont' spoil any event, I ill say that it carries on certain themes in ways that I wasn't expecting but make a lot of sense thinking back on it.

Cops are armed and the public is not panicked because cops are armed. Cops are considered members of law enforcement. I think heroes should be considered the same because they're basically playing a similar role. Why people would be scared seeing armed heroes if they're not scared by armed cops? Seems like people have an idealized vision of heroes which is not always good. Heroes should not be the perfect goody two shoes, they should protect and serve the law, yes, but they should also act using harsh methods when its necessary. I personally won't mind if I see a hero with superpowers AND armed with a gun beating the crap out of the bad people. On the contrary, I'll feel more protected knowing that heroes can act like real law enforcement agents and not people that care only about their public image (I'm also pro-gun and I advocate that people should be armed for their protection. Except for people with mental problems, of course). But not many people think like me. As I said, there are people who, when they heard the word "hero", they expect the see everything is good and pure on the world incarnated into a couple of people. They can't even accept the fact that heroes have their own flaws and are humans, just like everyone else. I like brave, kind and selfless heroes too, but I don't expect perfection. Also, heroes with a bit of darkness in them seem to be more interesting than the perfect heroes.
There's already a critical situation with S9 Clones and the perspective of the end of the world but only Vista and Weaver have guns (Foil have a weapon too but her weapon is necessary for her power). Why not everyone else? I doubt that the civilians will have enough time to be outraged when they're systematically killed by S9 Clones.

Poor Scapegoat is already traumatized after Taylor's blindness and endless wounds episode so why they should traumatize this poor guy even more? Just let him alone, I feel terrible bad for him after he went through literal hell "thanks" to Taylor's injuries.

Yes, David (thank you for telling me Eidolon's real name, btw) sounds more like someone who just want to fight but become weaker and weaker and he doesn't like to admit to himself that he can't probably fight anymore in the future if the source of his power -his Passenger- will be unable to continue to empower him. I feel like his Passenger is slowly dying (maybe because it wasn't naturally induced or maybe because it using too much energy for such power) and Cauldron are trying to stop the process but they can only postpone it. Eidolon lives to fight and he's a proud man and because he's getting weaker he can't admit it and accept the idea that he'll become useless. I don't see him as a selfless hero (Legend is the only selfless Triumvirate hero. Alexandria was selfless too at the beginning but then she became too much personally involved in the Cauldron's dirty job that she started to lose her humanity with time), I see him as a very proud fighter, a combination between Lung and the old Armsmaster. This is my opinion about him without any bias (I'm going to exclude his role in Cauldron from this opinion). Yes, Weaver saw his reply as an admission of weakness but I saw it as a refusal to accept that he will become useless.

I honestly like talking with you and with anyone else who want to talk to me. I like exchanging opinions and ideas and thoughts with people that are probably smarter than me (and anyway, know more than me)

. Even if we may have different opinions I won't mind as long as we listen to each other and we're politely with each other

. Its very important to know how to respect what others have to say even if we don't necessarily agree with them all the time.

The Richmaster · Dec 24, 2019

blackarrow said:
Cops are armed and the public is not panicked because cops are armed. Cops are considered members of law enforcement. I think heroes should be considered the same because they're basically playing a similar role. Why people would be scared seeing armed heroes if they're not scared by armed cops? Seems like people have an idealized vision of heroes which is not always good. Heroes should not be the perfect goody two shoes, they should protect and serve the law, yes, but they should also act using harsh methods when its necessary. I personally won't mind if I see a hero with superpowers AND armed with a gun beating the crap out of the bad people. On the contrary, I'll feel more protected knowing that heroes can act like real law enforcement agents and not people that care only about their public image (I'm also pro-gun and I advocate that people should be armed for their protection. Except for people with mental problems, of course). But not many people think like me. As I said, there are people who, when they heard the word "hero", they expect the see everything is good and pure on the world incarnated into a couple of people. They can't even accept the fact that heroes have their own flaws and are humans, just like everyone else. I like brave, kind and selfless heroes too, but I don't expect perfection. Also, heroes with a bit of darkness in them seem to be more interesting than the perfect heroes.
There's already a critical situation with S9 Clones and the perspective of the end of the world but only Vista and Weaver have guns (Foil have a weapon too but her weapon is necessary for her power). Why not everyone else? I doubt that the civilians will have enough time to be outraged when they're systematically killed by S9 Clones.

Okay, I'm not going to get into politics so I'll just say, on the topic of guns, I mostly lean towards "prove you can be trusted with them".

Anyway, back on topic; I was talking about PR. The thing is, the PRT decided to use the narrative of "heroes who seem like they umped out the pages of comic books" which I think is part of why that sort of thing happens.

Okay, I won't say any more but this is actually covered in Ward; there is actually some retrospective musing on both how the PRT handled PR and what the parahuman community as a whole thought of guns.

blackarrow said:
Poor Scapegoat is already traumatized after Taylor's blindness and endless wounds episode so why they should traumatize this poor guy even more? Just let him alone, I feel terrible bad for him after he went through literal hell "thanks" to Taylor's injuries.

I wouldn't really say the blindness was what traumatised Scapegoat, that definitely seems like the sort of thing that he may have healed before; I interpreted it as more "What the hell? How the hell have you been functioning and taking part in an S-Class threat battle when you're blind and have enough injuries to leave most sane people bawling on the ground?"

blackarrow said:
Yes, David (thank you for telling me Eidolon's real name, btw) sounds more like someone who just want to fight but become weaker and weaker and he doesn't like to admit to himself that he can't probably fight anymore in the future if the source of his power -his Passenger- will be unable to continue to empower him. I feel like his Passenger is slowly dying (maybe because it wasn't naturally induced or maybe because it using too much energy for such power) and Cauldron are trying to stop the process but they can only postpone it. Eidolon lives to fight and he's a proud man and because he's getting weaker he can't admit it and accept the idea that he'll become useless. I don't see him as a selfless hero (Legend is the only selfless Triumvirate hero. Alexandria was selfless too at the beginning but then she became too much personally involved in the Cauldron's dirty job that she started to lose her humanity with time), I see him as a very proud fighter, a combination between Lung and the old Armsmaster. This is my opinion about him without any bias (I'm going to exclude his role in Cauldron from this opinion). Yes, Weaver saw his reply as an admission of weakness but I saw it as a refusal to accept that he will become useless.

I typed up a carefully worded response to this but am unsure about how much of it was spoilers since I have more context for certain scenes that you've read so far so it would probably be easier if I just waited until you reach a certain point

blackarrow said:
I honestly like talking with you and with anyone else who want to talk to me. I like exchanging opinions and ideas and thoughts with people that are probably smarter than me (and anyway, know more than me) . Even if we may have different opinions I won't mind as long as we listen to each other and we're politely with each other . Its very important to know how to respect what others have to say even if we don't necessarily agree with them all the time.

I'm finding this pretty interesting too; I came to late to the game to really discuss Worm so this is a new chance for me

blackarrow · Dec 25, 2019

MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL MY WONDERFUL AND LOVELY READERS <3. MAY LOVE AND PROSPERITY FOLLOW YOU ALWAYS.

squibble · Jan 4, 2020

some humor from the comment section on 26.3
(this comment was posted the same day as the chapter, so no spoilers)

Psycho Gecko on July 23, 2013 at 01:19 said:
Ok, a little bit of confusion this time around as far as Breed goes, but here goes. Feel free to correct me if I'm off a little.
Mannequins on display: 0
Cherishes a distant memory: 1
Siberians reassigned to Antarctica: 0
Shatterbirds eaten by gluecats: 0
Crawlers run over by a mad, wheelchair-bound granny: 0
Burnscars put on ice: 0
Hatchet Faces that have to wait for the sequel: 0
Murder Rats cheesed off: 2
Kings that have left the building: 0
Screamers gagged by Mistress Taylor: 1
Harbingers assuming a direct dirtnap: 0
Breeds sliced like white bred: 1?
Crimsons eaten by a big bad wolf: 1
Nyxes zilched: 1
Psychosomas treated by a Frontier Psychiatrist: 0
Damsels of Distress in another castle: 0
Winters ended by global warming: 1
Chuckles's hit in the faces with pies: 0
Hookwolves arrested for hooking: 0
Skinslips given a pinkslip on life: 0
Night Hags coyote uglied when the guy woke up: 0
Nice Guys finished last: 1
Bonus Round:
Snowmenn snowballed: 0
Nighty Nights bitten by bed bugs: 0
Laughjobs had it handed to them: 0
Tyrants hiding in spiderholes: 1
Spawners violated: 0
Bonesaws boned: 0
Grey Boys whited out: 0
Jacks knifed: 0

blackarrow · Jan 5, 2020

Hello, my friends, and happy New Year 2020. I was too damn busy with the whole Christmas and New Year stuff so not enough time for liveblogging Worm, but now I have more free time in my hands meaning more time for fresh updates. I'll start this year with an Interlude, looks like. I was more curious to see the meeting between the King of Horrors, Nilbog, and the Lord of Apocalypse, Jack, and how successful Jack will be at recruiting Nilbog in his team, but an Interlude is pretty ok too, I don't complain. Interludes are always good, even the ones about assholes and Cauldron (even if I don't like the central character(s), I still like how informative an Interlude can be, allowing me to see and learn things outside Taylor's limited perspective so I become pretty excited everytime when I discover a new Interlude). So, my best guess? Another Cauldron Interlude, which will be welcomed because I'm very curious to see how they managed to save the world once and from what kind of menace, I want to learn more about the mysterious Contessa and how in the hell she managed to get such an UNFAIR power( Cauldron power, natural trigger???) and yes, I'm interested to know more about Cauldron First Bitch too, Doctor (step)Mother- how did she came up with this diabolical idea of creating Cauldron, if she have powers or not (and if not then why not; if everyone around her is a parahuman why she refused to turn herself into a parahuman too? Or she was afraid to share the same fate as her VICTIMS?) Another characters that I'll be very interested about are Heartbreaker's kids. I'm actually getting tired demanding this Interlude and never getting it

. I'm going to eat my curiosity until the last crumbs if I'll be disappointed and never ever ask for it again.
Lets see if I'll start this year with assholes or with cool guys

Interlude 26 (Donation Bonus #1)

"Three Mannequins, three Murder Rats, three Breeds, a Nyx and a Tyrant taken out of action. Fifty hostages rescued. Jack's reported as being on a route to visit Nilbog. Information confirmed by Tattletale, but doesn't guarantee the clone wasn't misinformed."

"Thank you, Weaver."

Dragon's systems were already taking in the data. Two hundred and sixty-four individual maps that marked the possible locations of the Nine with colored highlights shifted. Eleven feeds went dark, their engines taking over calculations in other departments.

"Dragon," Chevalier's face appeared on a feed. One of the cameras on the PRT-issue phones, judging by the angle and resolution. "You've got the go-ahead from the commander-in-chief."

The words popped up. Cherie Vasil.

The Azazels relocated in an instant, firing every thruster to reposition themselves to hilltops and areas in the vicinity of the road. Long range cameras, infrared and electromagnetic resonance imaging gave Dragon eyes on the scene, verified what she was seeing twice over. No Nyx-crafted illusions fashioned of poisonous gas. No plastic surgery.

Seven Cherishes. Two Crawlers. A King. Forty hostages of unknown status, a bus driver.

A second stream hit his hostage, striking her out of his grasp and sending her flying straight into the first glob.
She was sandwiched within, safe.

"Ten more members of the Nine have been dealt with," Dragon reported the victory on every channel. "Seven Cherishes and two Crawlers deceased, one King captured. Will move to containment and interrogate shortly."

Ok, ok, I'm starting 2020 with a cool guy. Or better said: a cool gal. Or even BETTER SAID: a cool AI gal

. The second Dragon Interlude? My predictions are already dead and buried but at least I'm going to spend this Interlude reading about Dragon kicking serious S9 Clones' ass. Can't say that I'm disappointed, especially when Dragon is cleaning the streets using Cherishes and Crawlers' bodies as broom. Awesome. I like how she doesn't give them any chance to hurt the hostages, she actually saves hostages from them, she knows how to fight so no innocent will be hurt. Weaver and your Marry Band of Ass Kicking Heroes, see how you should deal with hostages? Save them not let them die just like that

(well, I know that it isn't their fault, they're doing whatever they can to save as many hostages as possible but most of them are mutilated beyond hope of salvation or they have Breed's pets nesting inside their bodies). Dragon is more lucky because the clones that she confronted didn't have enough time to mutilate their hostages. Interesting to see the fight against Crawler. Crawler still look like a human who slowly mutate into a monster in order to protect himself against Dragon's attacks. Now I understand his power better, the original Crawler turned into a monster as a form of adaptation to any other attack that could have threatened his life (he developed a monstrous skin to deflect aggressive attacks, he developed many eyes to better see his enemies, he got the ability to split acid to hurt his enemies, he got claws to be able to climb surfaces and so on. Its not like he wanted to physically turn into a monster- well, he was a monster at heart anyway, his power made him a physical monster as a very strange method of survival (if I have to compare him with a character from X-Men- my eternal obsession, sorry- he's like Darwin but Darwin's power allows him to remain human with the ability to adapt to any life threatening situation. But Crawler wasn't so lucky). His Passenger must be a smart asshole because it brings the monster inside of him at surface.
Crawler and his fucked up power aside, I don't like how Dragon captured a King. A living King. Not a good idea because King is not going to tell her anything about Jack. All the clones are very loyal to their masters and they'll prefer to die than betray him in any way. Nyx preferred to die instead of telling to the heroes where Jack is. They're created like this by Bonesaw who also have the remote control and will probably know if they'll betray and kill them before they'll actually do it. Well, if Dragon will be smart enough to remind King Clone that Jack was the one who killed his original that will probably change his opinion about Jack but...the remote control is still in Bonesaw's hands. King will not have enough time to help Dragon with information.

Saint closed his eyes as he listened to the congratulations, the affirmations and praise.

It was all hope mingled with horror, when he listened for what was beneath the surface. Minimal casualties. A few injuries – Vista and Crucible would be out of commission as Murder Rat's venom continued to widen their wounds, and Golem was being treated for a burn. One Dragon's Tooth had died, but the rest were holding positions, ready to support. Civilians were dying, but it wasprogress.

He opened his eyes to take in the whole of Dragon's work. Six widescreen monitors each tracked what she was doing with video images and white text on a black background. A slight movement of his foot on the trackpad in front of him shifted one of his cursors, changing the focus of the screens. He could see her directing the A.I. craft to more optimal locations, the related subroutines and tasks.

WHAAAAAAAAAAAT

? Wildbow is SAVAGE with his plot twists. He's officially M. Night Shyamalan of web literature. Yep. So, he made me believe that this is Dragon Interlude, I had a great moment seeing her kicking evil clones' ass, and now the whole POV changed to her worst enemy, Saint himself. You know, that hacker with an ugly cross tattoo on his face, who doesn't like Dragon and keep bothering her. Who is also one of Teacher's students. So, this is Dragon Interlude or Saint Interlude, I'm kind of confused at this moment. Well, Saint is watching Dragon on his monitors so I suppose that is HIS Interlude and what I saw till now was what Saint saw. Hmm, ok, I'm curious to know more about this Saint, why he doesn't like Dragon and stole suits from her and tried to sabotage her. Well, I can see his main reason, he probably doesn't trust AIs, not even a benevolent AI like Dragon and he's afraid that she'll go all evil over the world and doom or bring it under her control. His fear is not stupid neither illogical. Its a normal fear and this man just doesn't want to become a slave for an AI (even if he's already a slave for a Master but this is another story). A very realistic fear and I will understand him if this is his main reason to be so hostile towards Dragon but I just hope that he'll not try to sabotage her again- RIGHT IN THIS MOMENT- when she fights to save the world, because that will be a very illogical, idiotic and asshole move. Right now, Dragon is not someone dangerous, she actually fight against what is truly dangerous for the world. If she'll become dangerous after she'll deal with Jack then I will totally agree with any actions Saint or Colin will want to take against her (but I'm afraid that Colin will not do anything to stop her because he loves her. Yes, he's a hero but...the stupid things we're doing for love...

). But until then, all you should do is watch her kicking ass, Saint man. Kicking ass.
Who knows, maybe he'll even help her if he is a good boy who care to stop the end of the world. Should I have faith in Saint? Hmmm, its too early.

He didn't take his eyes off the screen, but when hands settled on his shoulders, he reached up to rest his own hand on one.

"Progress?" she asked. She rested her chin on his head, looking at the screens.

"Some, Mags," he responded. "Thanks for the coffee."

"Horrible stuff."

He shifted his foot, and once again, the screens changed their focus, the rest of the data shifting to miniature windows and moving to the periphery of the viewing area. The focus at the center was on the class-S threats.
The Endbringers were stable, all in a resting state.

Secondary focuses. Not the kind of targets that Dragon checked on with any regularity. Quarantine areas were silent and still. Canberra was sealed off under a dome, Madison was surrounded by walls. An area of wilderness in Alaska was marked off, but had no physical barriers to wall people away. There were no apparent issues in the vicinity of the interdimensional portals. Sleeper was, as far as anyone could identify anything about the threat,dormant. The Three Blasphemies were active, but the damage was being managed by the European capes. A temporary measure had been taken with Purity and her three year old daughter, with observation being provided for her by the PRT, and the feed showed her sitting on the couch in an apartment or hotel room, two very normal, plain looking people standing in the corner of the room with some PRT officers keeping their distance. No crises. Normal, as much as such could be normal.

And then there was Nilbog. The data focused around him. The city was quiet, and the roads leading into the city were being watched by satellite. Simulations, damage estimates and risk assessments were being run, old data being gathered, with essential data highlighted. It took her only a moment to put it into a format that was easily readable. An instant later, it was gone. He'd blinked, failing to look in the right spot, and had missed the moment the data had been emailed out. The file would inform everyone on the home team about who Nilbog was and how he operated.

"It could be that he intends to surround himself with a core group, with one of each previous member of the Nine, for a final showdown. Before he pulls out the big guns."

Dobrynja approached from the other end of the office. He was wearing his armor. He'd started out with the Wyvern suit, but now wore the Wyrmiston suit. It was based on the technology they'd recovered from a destroyed model, the one Dragon called Pythios. A wheel slowly rotated on his back.

"Everything does, from this side of the screen," Saint said. He stood, holding his coffee, "Adjusting for the time delay between what I'm seeing and what Dragon's doing, we've got six minutes more before Dragon intercepts Jack at the edge of Nilbog's territory. Twelve minutes until Golem and Weaver get there. They'll fight Jack, and somewhere in the midst of that, we may see the end of the world."

Saint is smart, despite not having any Tinker power. He understood Jack's plan to sacrifice most of his not very powerful clones in order to give the heroes enough hope that they can defeat him, then when they'll ever find him, he'll be surrounded by his most dangerous clones: Siberians, Gray Boy, Bonesaw, Nilbog (if he'll recruit him), Harbingers. Saint is a smart boy because he noticed something that not even the mighty Dragon noticed: Jack is playing with everyone. He waits until they'll be sure that they can defeat him to crush their hopes with his small army of UNFAIR powered clones. He doesn't care about Cherishes or Kings or even about Crawlers. They're not strong enough to protect him directly, when the time of final coundown for the end of the world will come. Good, Saint, good, what are you going to do now that you're aware of what Jack is planning? Perhaps you can contact Dragon and offer her your support? Come on, you seem like you want to help saving the world, why don't you team up with Dragon instead of being obsessed that she's not good? That wold be the smartest move

.
I'm glad that I get to know Saint's Dragonslayers. They're only two, Mag, who's also Saint's girlfriend and Dobrynja- judging by his name or codename, he must be russian. Both of them are smart and well prepared for the big fight. Sleeper is mentioned again, but no word about where he's, his intentions and his power. The Three Blasphemies were mentioned before, during Cauldron Meeting, when Doctor Mother said that she tried to locate them but she couldn't. I think they're a group of 3 very powerful and pretty evil/crazy/both parahumans (like Nilblog). I don't think that there's enough Worm left to develop these characters so I can imagine that they'll have a bigger role in Ward. Maybe they'll be the main villains.

"Trouble," Dobrynja said.

"Trouble?"

It was his face. As an aside, beyond all of the routines she was running to investigate the Nine, she was using the access she'd obtained to track him down.

The image she was using was of him at one of the meetings with the major players. It was soon joined by an image from surveillance camera. A camera image from three days earlier, showing him walking down the street in plainclothes.

From there, she had a location. A map like the one she'd used to find the Nine appeared, giving his likely locations. Another surveillance image popped up. It was of him, sitting with Mags at the coffee shop an hour away.

He felt a bit of a thrill as the duel began. This was the ultimate hunt, fighting an enemy that was bigger, smarter, faster. An enemy that couldn't truly die, because she wasn't truly alive.

"Ascalon," he said.

Dobrynja frowned. "The program? You can't do it now. Peoples lives are at stake. Even without this end of the world business."

"There's no other way? If you talk to Teacher, maybe-"

"Communications with Teacher are too slow," Saint replied.

That's not good. Hell, that's NOT GOOD AT ALL. Dragon somehow found Saint and his buddies' identities and location and Saint is afraid that she'll arrest him. And because he's afraid for his own freedom, he's going to use a special program- Ascalon, to probably shut her down or delete all her data. This is bad, bad, bad, bad, Saint

. Dragon fights to save the world, she's going to try to stop Jack from recruiting Nilblog and she'll be probably successful. And you want to sabotage her because she found you? Well, buddy, why you don't better help her defeat Jack and then she'll probably "forget" about you and let you free as a bird in the sky as gratitude for helping her? She's Dragon, she'll spare you if you're nice and helpful, you don't have to be aggressive and especially you don't have to be aggressive NOW, when there's not the right moment to attack Dragon. I agree with Dobrynja that if Saint will take action against Dragon, maybe he'll be the one who'll trigger the end of the world by allowing Jack to win (even if he doesn't actually have this intention). Saint, you may have good intentions but you're very selfish and stupid (technological wise he's incredible smart but life wise, he's just plain stupid). You care more about your freedom than allowing Dragon to save the world. Your mentality disgusts me. Don't do what you're planning to do, man, don't stop Dragon right now. Don't doom the world, please. I don't understand why Dobrynja thinks that talking to Teacher is a better idea

. Teacher is a criminal locked into a prison where the most dangerous parahumans criminals are usually locked. He's a criminal parahuman and a Master. Its written bad all over him. If I were in Saint's place, I'd rather prefer to go to jail than asking for someone like Teacher's help. Unless...Dobrynja is another one of Teacher's students, otherwise I can't explain his trust in Teacher. How many people Teacher can control at the same time? From what I understand, he must give people skills or enhance their powers first to get them under his control. He probably made Saint a better hacker than he was already and did the same with Dobrynja and Mag. I swear, making a deal with Teacher is like making a deal with Satan. Satan agrees to give you what your heart desires but he'll take everything else from you afterwards. No win for you

.
I love this Interlude. Its a BEAUTIFUL MESS. A group of apparently well-intentioned people will probably cause the end of the world because they're also too selfish and naive/stupid to take the right decisions at the right time. Kind of like Clovkblocker said: what if a mundane idiot will cause the Apocalypse? Will Saint be this mundane idiot? Will Apocalypse be triggered by a non-parahuman when everyone expect that parahumans will be responsible of it? Will Wildbow and Shyamalan become good friends over their common passion for mind-fucking twists? Lets see.

He glanced at Margaret. The woman leaned against the window just in front of the driver's seat on the small boat. She'd bundled up in a heavy jacket, but the way her arms were folded spoke of a different kind of discomfort.

Geoff only nodded. He climbed the ladder and half-sat, half-collapsed on the bench. He was slightly out of breath, and didn't volunteer anything.

The captain emerged from belowdeck.

"Sorry for the scare, Mischa," Geoff said.

"You are a bad man, Geoffrey," Mischa scolded him. The heavyset Russian took his seat behind the wheel of the small boat. "If you were still underwater, I would drive away and leave you to swim to shore."

It was packed with chips. A voice came from a speaker Geoff couldn't identify.

"My name is Andrew Richter, and if you are hearing this, I am dead."

"I am the most powerful tinker in the world, and I've managed to keep my name secret. People, both good and bad, would want to capture me and use me to their own ends. I prefer to remain free.

"They are my children, and as much as I harbor a kind of terror for what they could do, I love them and hope for great things from them. To keep their power from falling into the wrong hands, I have included a stipulation that a law enforcement officer must input a valid badge number into this device-"

The voice continued without pause. "-which must be input within three hours of the time this box was opened."

Saint's BACKSTORY. His real name is Geoffrey or Geoff, shorter. Dobrynja is Mischa and he's indeed russian and Mag is Margaret. Geoff found a message from Dragon's "father", Richter, where he was worried that his "daughter" will turn evil one day and he created the Ascalon's program to shut her down forever. No wonder why Geoff is so paranoiac if Dragon's own creator was afraid of what she might become. I understand him, I share the same paranoiac (or maybe not so very paranoiac) opinion about AIs. I know that Dragon is currently GOOD but who knows what will happen with her in the future? Not even Dinah can see so clearly in the future so only time will tell. Yes, Colin keeps her under control but he also loves her and even someone so cold and tough as Colin can become putty in the skillful hands of his girlfriend. I trust Colin's mind but I don't trust his heart. I think Geoff is right for being afraid for a future evil AI BUT he's not right for deciding to use the program right when she is fighting so hard to save the world. Incredible bad timing. The worst bad timing of all. Worst than Cody. At least Cody almost sacrificed a country for his selfishness but Geoff is ready to sacrifice the whole world. Congratulations, Geoff, if you'll deactivate Dragon when the world NEEDS her, then you'll be the worst. THE WORST. You'll make Cody appear like a smart and wise guy for attacking people fighting against Behemoth in the middle of the fight.

The father had feared his child was a monster, enough so that he'd left strangers a weapon to use against her in the event that she proved a danger to humanity.

Now, as Saint watched her reaching further and deeper than she ever had, searching much of America with millions of cameras, saw the machines she brought to the fore, he suspected the father had been right to.

The A.I. was dangerous. Richter's records made it clear. The wrong kind of corruption, involvement with the wrong kind of individual, willing to break the built-in restrictions…

"Convince me that this is wrong," he said. "Someone."

"She's a soldier on the battlefield," Mags said. "In a war we need to win."

"I don't want this to be about self-preservation," Mags said.

"It's not. It's about… there being only one man who can truly know what she is and what she could do. Tinkers are the only ones who can grasp their work, repair a critical flaw. Dragon isn't a generator that's going to explode and take out a small country if it's bumped in the wrong way. Not literally. She's something more dangerous."

Her voice cut off as more routines shut down. She closed her eyes.

The face disappeared.

"And the dragon is stopped," Mags said, her voice quiet.

"Rest her soul," Dobrynja said.

"You think she has a soul?" Saint asked, genuinely surprised.

"Yes. But that does not mean that the Dragon's reign does not need to end," Dobrynja said. "Too dangerous, as her maker said."

FUCK YOU, SAINT. FUCK YOU

. YOU DID THE WORST THING SOMEONE WHO ISN'T EVIL COULD DO. You doomed the whole world (I don't feel sad for Dragon's death because I'm sure that its not permanent- Defiant is skillful and smart enough to bring her back but I'm pissed because she could have stopped Jack from destroying the world because she can't do anything anymore because a fucking Saint decided that she'll become the most dangerous being in the world in 100 or 1000 years from now on and he had to stop her somehow). Saint, you could have worked with her, you could have helped her stop Jack and she'd have forget about arresting you, but nooooooooooooooo, your selfish nature decided that your freedom is more important than the lives of billions of people. Saint is not an evil person, he's actually a man who's trying to do what is the right thing to do, but he's selfish. Very selfish. Yes, someone can be a good person, yet selfish. He didn't even listened his friends and allies, Mags and Dobrynja, when they almost begged him to let Dragon alone

. Mags was very right when she said that they NEED Dragon but her boyfriend didn't give a fuck about her opinion, he only cared about himself. I swear, if I were the girlfriend of this guy, I would have knocked him out then tie him down until the world will be saved. I'd care more about the world's safety than his paranoia. Even if he'll hate me afterwards, I'd still do what is the most right thing to do. But Mags loved him too much to not let him do whatever he wanted, even if she was very much against his actions. She's the selfless half of their relationship. She accepts him even when she doesn't agree with him. She must love him very much. She's also a wise and nice woman. Too bad that she have such an ass of a boyfriend. Well, I think he loves her too, but he cares more about his own persona than anyone else

.
I wonder what other people think about Geoff. I think he's smart (at hackering), cautious and well-intentioned without resorting to Cauldron's atrocities or being a murderer (its not like he killed Dragon, come on, I'm absolute sure that she'll come back as long as her backup data and Colin's brilliant mind still exist) but he's also selfish, he doesn't care about his own allies' opinions, he's impulsive and utterly paranoiac. He reminds me of Krouse but at least poor Krouse had two big logical excuses: LOVE (more or less logical) and Simurgh. What kind of logical excuses Saint have besides his paranoia?

The cyborg opened communications to Dragon, but he didn't speak to her. "Saint. What have you done?"

"What her father asked me to do," Saint said.

"I'll kill you for this," the cyborg said. There was no emotion in his voice, and somehow that was more disturbing.

"A little extreme," Saint said.

"She was a hero! The woman I loved!"

"She did love me. She was a genuine person, a-"

"Don't enter," he said. "It's done. Sending the Azazels in will only spook Nilbog."

"So will Jack," Mags said.

The PRT records opened up. Permissions were accessed without difficulty.

Then the Birdcage opened. A self-contained world unto itself, a world containing people he'd made certain agreements with.

His access to the Birdcage was one with countless checks and balances. Dragon had put in one real barrier to entry for every one that she faced. Still, he was able to open a communication to Teacher. His own face transmitted to the screen. His tattoo flared to life, appearing from beneath the skin. The light pattern served as an unlock code, the cross-tattoo as a feeble mask.

This is our fight, Saint thought. Ours to win, ours to lose.

Colin: I don't know who you are. I don't know what you want. If you are looking for ransom, I can tell you I don't have money. But what I do have are a very particular set of skills, skills I have acquired over a very long career. Skills that make me a nightmare for people like you. If you reactivate Dragon, that'll be the end of it. I will not look for you, I will not pursue you. But if you don't, I will look for you, I will find you, and I will kill you. -TAKEN 4: REVENGE OF THE NERDS (starring: Robert Downey Jr. as Colin/Defiant, Rami Malek as Geoffrey/Saint) Release Date: January 22, 2020. Don't miss it. Side note: the best actor I can see playing Colin is Robert Downey, can't be someone else

. As for Geoff, Rami Malek (Mr Robot's protagonist; I recommend this kick-ass TV series) is my best choice. He only need a cross tattoo on his face and he'll be perfect

.
So, Colin is going to kill Geoff if he'll ever find him. Well, I won't mind whatever Colin will do to him because even if Geoff is not a bad man, he did something so bad that not even hundreds of further good deeds will fix it. I just don't fucking care about his fate anymore. Geoff is like an inverse Phir Sē. The indian vigilante was ready to kill millions of people+ his daughter in order to save billions. But, when Weaver asked him to LISTEN her and follow her COMMAND and BEST JUDGEMENT, he actually listened her and allowed her to lead his actions. The result: his daughter+ millions of indians survived and Behemoth was injured

. Saint wanted only to stop potentially dangerous AI without killing a single human being. But, when his girlfriend and best buddy asked him to let Dragon alone because she was probably the only hope of humanity against Jack, he didn't even listened them and did what he wanted. The result: the whole world will be probably doomed even if Dinah said that the numbers of success increased (I'm sure is not permanent and everything will go to hell in a short time). Against his will, Saint probably helped Jack more than any of his people could do. Nice work breaking it, hero.
I also think that Saint was partially influenced by Teacher. Teacher wants to escape from Birdcage and probably....surely replace Jack as first world menace once Jack will be defeated. With Dragon in control he couldn't break free from Birdcage. But once Dragon was removed from equation and his student is in control, Teacher's chances to escape are bigger than ever. Its very possible that Teacher used his Master power on his student (now depends of how strong is his mental grip and how wade is the range), this serving as half of an excuse for Saint's horrible decision. Well, he was stupid enough for making the initial deal with Teacher (I mean, anyone making deals with Teacher while knowing that Teacher is evil and a Master must be dumber than the grass where the chicken poop

)+ his own paranoia and selfishness played an important role too.
Damn it, Saint. WHY YOU DIDN'T LISTENED YOUR GIRLFRIEND

?
The moral of this Interlude: Boys, always listen to your girlfriends. They're always right. If not, you'll cause the end of the world. Its a very legit warning

.
Good night and sleep well, my friends.

LordYam · Jan 5, 2020

Yeah there's a reason Saint is hated. An old cartoon by a former fan showed Saint hitting something with a hammer as Dragon cornered Jack

ImperatorV · Jan 5, 2020

Yes, Saint is perhaps the most hated character in the Worm fandom. There are fanfics giving Emma, Sophia, and Madison redemption arcs, even a small number of fanfics that humanize Doctor Mother, but I can't think of a single fic where Saint is anything other then a villain and an idiot. Dragon is one of the few genuinely good people in all of Worm, and he killed her out of self-preservation.

Incidentally, Blackarrow's continued AI-phobia alternatively amuses and annoys me. Artificial people are people too! Are you afraid of every human being you meet, because they might turn evil and kill you? Why would you be more afraid of an artificial person?

Also, I just realized I lied about Saint not having any fanfics in which he was good. There was that one AU fic where all the villains in Worm were switched to be heroes and visa versa.

10moorem II · Jan 5, 2020

Ah, Saint the one person in worm that everyone hates.

The funny thing about him is that he's pathetic. You believe him to be a well intentioned extremist it seems, however if that was the case he would have killed Dragon the moment he got the kill switch or learned that she could potentially overcome her restrictions (ignoring the moral implications of all of this).

But instead he waits, and lets Dragon become more and more important to the world's stability. And finally when he kills her out of self preservation her absence will be felt by millions.

Because Saint is nothing without Dragon. She makes him feel important, makes him feel like the hero of this story. It's even in his name, Saint George wielding Ascalon to slay the dragon.

It's honestly disgusting.

KnownParadox · Jan 5, 2020

ImperatorV said:
but I can't think of a single fic where Saint is anything other then a villain and an idiot.

Actually there was a fic where Roles were reversed. Heroes were villains, villains were heroes, that kind of thing. The Triumvirate were Endbringers and the Endbringers were the Triumvirate.

Dragon was a villain, and Saint was probably the only Saint in any universe or timeline to be a heroic badass.

Can't remember the name, I think it was Through The Looking Glass but I might be wrong

Edit daaaaaamnit how did I miss the last part of your post, don't mind me you know what I'm talking about nevermind

blackarrow · Jan 6, 2020

ImperatorV said:
Yes, Saint is perhaps the most hated character in the Worm fandom. There are fanfics giving Emma, Sophia, and Madison redemption arcs, even a small number of fanfics that humanize Doctor Mother, but I can't think of a single fic where Saint is anything other then a villain and an idiot. Dragon is one of the few genuinely good people in all of Worm, and he killed her out of self-preservation.

Incidentally, Blackarrow's continued AI-phobia alternatively amuses and annoys me. Artificial people are people too! Are you afraid of every human being you meet, because they might turn evil and kill you? Why would you be more afraid of an artificial person?

Also, I just realized I lied about Saint not having any fanfics in which he was good. There was that one AU fic where all the villains in Worm were switched to be heroes and visa versa.

Wow, I'm very surprised that he is so hated by the fandom. There are characters much worse than Geoff and still he is hated the most. Well, my opinion about him is that he is a well intentioned man but he did something very stupid because he was afraid for his own freedom once Dragon discovered his identity. He is NOT a criminal, I'm 100% sure that Colin will bring Dragon back, I'm not worried that she's permanently dead. But I'm pissed because Geoff probably caused the end of the world by "killing" someone strong enough to opposite Jack and he unwillingly helped Jack to reach his objectives. This is why Saint pissed me off. Also he didn't listened his good friends Margaret and Micha, some pretty likeable and wise people.
So, I am not pissed because he fucked with Dragon, I'm pissed because he fucked with the world. Still, I don't hate him as much as I hate other villains. He is not a monster, he is just one stupid selfish man, a very stupid selfish man. One who fucked things up worse than anyone else could do.
I don't trust most of human beings, I have huge problems with trust in general and you're asking me why I don't trust AIs? AIs are build by humans, humans have many flaws, anything created by humans is not entirely safe. Dragon wasn't created ONLY by a human but she was created by a human influenced by an alien seeing conflict and violence. Why should I trust that Richter's Passenger wanted its host to create something absolute harmless when Passengers are in general so conflict obsessed? Dragon is peaceful now but who knows what she will do in the fluture. Even she herself have a Passenger because she triggered. AI+ A Passenger= not the best of combinations.
All in all, Colin will bring her back, I trust him. He have her backup data and enough determination to bring his girlfriend back. The problem is: who will stop Jack now that Dragon is gone (because I don't trust Saint to be able to do the fine job that she did) and who will save Saint once Colin will find him. Colin will get his revenge, baby, he will get his revenge. I just hope that he will not hurt Mags and Micha because they are pretty sympathetic even if they are bit of fools too for helping Saint.

blackarrow · Jan 6, 2020

10moorem II said:
Ah, Saint the one person in worm that everyone hates.

The funny thing about him is that he's pathetic. You believe him to be a well intentioned extremist it seems, however if that was the case he would have killed Dragon the moment he got the kill switch or learned that she could potentially overcome her restrictions (ignoring the moral implications of all of this).

But instead he waits, and lets Dragon become more and more important to the world's stability. And finally when he kills her out of self preservation her absence will be felt by millions.

Because Saint is nothing without Dragon. She makes him feel important, makes him feel like the hero of this story. It's even in his name, Saint George wielding Ascalon to slay the dragon.

It's honestly disgusting.

Yes, I forgot to mention the mythological aspect of this little war between Saint and Dragon. I missed the occassion to show people my vast mythological knowledge and I feel bad about this. But I was too emotionally involved in the events, this might the explanation for this omission. Yep, Geoff is a very selfish man, he didn't necessarily "killed" Dragon because he knew she will turn evil, he "killed" her because he was afraid for his own freedom. He could have helped her instead and redeem himself in her eyes but he decided over the easiest way for him. In his place, I would have "killed" her right in the moment when she turns evil and I'd have helped her against Jack but.... Saint is the Patron Saint of Fucking Things Up, unfortunatelly.
I still think that he was partially influenced by his connection with Teacher in his decision. Another example of how stupid he is: he made the deal with Teacher, basically "selling" himself to a criminal so dangerous that he was locked in Birdcage and is the leader of an entire prison block populated by.... people mind controlled by him, basically living zombies. I mean..... WTF, Saint? How stupid you can be? I would't trust Teacher not even if he will promise me that I will become the richest and smartest person in the world. Instead I would run as far away from him possible, even on Moon if I have the means

. Not even Lung trusts Teacher and Saint was so very ok to serve him because he enhanced his hacker skills? Yes, I think I'm starting to hate Saint too. Besides fucking with the world, he is a monument of stupidity and I hate stupidity in humans. Too bad he is such a talented hacker.

blackarrow · Jan 6, 2020

I have a very interesting theory about Passengers. Listen here, I think Passengers can see in the future and seeing in the future help them finding their perfect hosts to give them exactly what they want: conflict and violence. Why I think that they can see in the future? For various reasons. First, how they choose their hosts. I understand that their main criteria is the already prone to violence, traumatized or mentally ill people. They notice these people and decide to choose them as their hosts. But not all their hosts are conflictual people and Passengers need conflict in order to probably survive and reach the maturity. For example, Sabah, Amelia and Paige were non-conflictual, peaceful people. Sabah only wanted to have a normal life (even after she became a parahuman), Amelia hated to play hero role and be in general involved in any conflict and Paige only wanted to be a singer. But their assholes Passengers knew that these girls will never have peaceful lives. They probably knew that Amelia will end up destroying her sister and generating enough conflict for their needs or that Paige will mutilate a man or that Sabah will become a villain and will be dragged by her team in different conflicts. This is must be the reason for choosing such peaceful hosts, because they looked into future and they knew what Sabah, Paige and Amelia will become. Why Alan's Passenger allowed him to build a base on the Moon, knowing that this will be a good thing for humanity? Because it also knew that Simurgh will stop him and turn him into a monster (if she was indeed created by Eidolon, then Eidfolon's Passenger is responsible for her existence and the other Passengers must be ok with this deal. She causes most of world conflicts). Alan's Passenger was ok with having its host turning into a monster because Mannequin generated enough conflict to feed the alien. I'm convinced that Passengers have the power to see the future of their hosts and indirectly/directly influence it. They must the babies of the huge floating abstract space creatures if my theory about their origins is right. Their parents must have all their powers that the Passengers give to their hosts. They're like omnipotent aliens. Since precog powers are a thing then these aliens surely have these powers too. And since Passengers are babies, their powers must be equal with their parents' powers just not enough developed. I'm also sure that Scion is a matured floating abstract space creature who happened to take a human form. Why he listened to a mere human, Kevin, and agreed to help the humanity instead of using it for his own benefits? Maybe because he's a mentally ill alien, who forgot his own identity and believe himself to be human or because he's easily manipulated by anyone who want to manipulate him? Either way, its bad because if Scion will ever realize who he truly is or will be manipulate by the wrong person, then everything will be over. Back to the Passengers' hypothetical ability to see in the future of their hosts. What if Richter's Passenger allowed him to build Dragon only because it knew that Dragon will generate conflict, whatever will be her fault or not? What if Richter subconsciously knew about his Passenger's intentions and he decided to warn the humanity about Dragon representing a possible danger? Anything is possible, there must be an explanation why her own "father" feared that she'll turn into something bad or wrong. Usually, the creators are not afraid of their creations or they don't care about the consequences, but Richter was not only afraid but he was also worried about the impact that Dragon will make on the world. There were some question marks that need answers.
I sincerely apologize to Dragon and Scion's fans for being so paranoiac about them (I'm sure that Scion have plenty of fans too who see him as the Superman of this universe) but I usually like to try to find answers to so many question marks hanging around these complicated and mysterious beings. I like to analyze any new/old situation or new/old character that demand to be analyzed and I know that some people might feel offended about my analyze or my personal opinions but I want them to understand that I mean no harm and I respect their own opinions. I like Dragon but this doesn't mean that I should stop trying to understand her and the role she'll play in the story (I'm convinced that she'll continue to play her role thanks to Colin) whatever will be. So, sorry for being "mean" with your favorite characters but this is the role of a liveblog. Expressing my opinions about what I'm reading, showing my reactions, trying to analyze the characters and understand them if there's something to understand about them. Maybe Dragon will be forever good but doesn't hurt if I have some doubts and worries and try to understand why her father acted the why he acted and why his Passenger was ok with Dragon's creation

.

The Richmaster · Jan 6, 2020

One interesting thing to consider when you read into it, is that Saint wasn't entirely wrong; there is are reasons to be suspicious of Dragon but the specific timing of everything is just horrible.

Consider the following facts:
1. Dragon just recently busted through the last major restriction she had left; when you consider how rapidly she's been evolving, it is entirely possible that if he had waited until after the situation was over then she would have adapted to the point that Ascalon would no loner work.
1.A. Dragon is very human in how she processes things; it is possible for her to change her mind, it is possible for her to be convinced and it is possible for her to be traumatised. Any one of these things could potentially lead to significant changes in how she acts, up to and including both going "kill all humans" and turning the world into an AI controlled state.
1.A.i. The only ones capable of defeating such a Dragon would be the Endbringers (who are, you know.. Endbringers) and Contessa (who Saint is not aware of). As far as Saint knows, this really is a potentially world-ending scenario where the only weapon available might not work any longer if he waits.

2. Dragon specifically allowed a foreign cartel to infect tens of millions of civilians devices when she could have stopped them, with the explicit purpose of allowing her to play Big Brother down the line. Technically not illegal but when you actually think about it, that's actually pretty damn skeevy, especially when she notes that she could have removed said viruses at any time she wanted.

3. During an S-Class state of emergency against Jack's end of the world scenario, Dragon devoted resources to hunting down Saint, blatantly violating the Truce for her own gain (which also implies that she could have actually been doing even more to counter the Slaughterhouse had those resources been used differently).

4... I have forgotten the fourth point that I wanted to make

I don't actually agree with what Saint did but there's more to his actions this chapter than "herp a derp I have AI murder-boner" that a lot of fan works seem to portray him as.

blackarrow said:
Crawler and his fucked up power aside, I don't like how Dragon captured a King. A living King.

I think you might have forgotten what King's power is; he's the one who reflects damage onto people that he has touched. Landing a killing blow on him is basically the same as killing whichever civilian he took hostage and there were dozens of people on that bus to cut down before you could actually kill him.
Most likely Dragon's plan was to contain him for 24 hours so that his power would wear off before executing him; since he'd be captured for that long, it wouldn't really do any harm to try and get info from him at the same time.

Also, there's something that I noticed you didn't mention, which I myself didn't actually notice the first few times I read it:

Interlude 26 Donation Bonus said:
His eyes stopped on a file. Amelia's.

The entire thing was corrupted. Gibberish. Flagged messages filled four pages, each marked private, marked as 'no conversation partner', and marked, thanks to the gibberish and random characters that flooded it, with one string of letters and characters.

The same one that had protected the orange box. The same that had protected Saint and his crew from being uncovered, until Dragon had taken a more direct, brute-force approach to finding them. The built-in blind spot, appearing by chance. A one in a hundred trillion chance.

Saint investigated, digging through the gibberish to find the strings of words that actually made sense. It was something he could piece together, with each recitation being similar, containing similar content. Faeries, passengers, source of powers, the 'whole', lobe in the brain, Manton Effect…

This was not an accident:

Interlude 16 Donation Bonus 3 said:
The house program that monitored the Birdcage followed the girl as she parted from her father and entered her cell in Cell Block W.

When she spoke, she addressed Dragon. The program began transcribing the message as it did every word said within the Baumann Parahuman Containment Center.

Tracking programs then began reviewing the message. Flags were raised as key words came up with some frequency, descriptions were run against a corpus of records in parahuman studies and more flags were tripped.

Sixty-two miles above the surface of the Earth, the Simurgh changed the course of her flight.

Following protocol for when Dragon was deployed on a mission, the system routed the message to one of Dragon's satellite systems. The resulting message was scrambled by the dense signature of the Endbringer en route to Dragon.

Receiving the garbled transmission from the satellite, a subsystem of the Dragon A.I. proceeded to sort it. A scan of the message by a further subroutine saw it classified as non-pertinent, and a snarl in the code from Defiant's improvised adjustments to her programming saw the message skip past several additional safeties and subroutines. The message was compartmentalized alongside other notes and data that included flares of atmospheric radiation and stray signals from the planet below; background noise at best.

Considering its job done, the house program archived the transcription among fifteen years of conversation and notes from the Baumann Parahuman Containment Center.

The Simurgh flew on.

ImperatorV said:
Also, I just realized I lied about Saint not having any fanfics in which he was good. There was that one AU fic where all the villains in Worm were switched to be heroes and visa versa.

There's also a one-shot where Saint reacts differently and essentially becomes Dragon's adoptive father

blackarrow · Jan 6, 2020

The Richmaster said:
One interesting thing to consider when you read into it, is that Saint wasn't entirely wrong; there is are reasons to be suspicious of Dragon but the specific timing of everything is just horrible.

Consider the following facts:
1. Dragon just recently busted through the last major restriction she had left; when you consider how rapidly she's been evolving, it is entirely possible that if he had waited until after the situation was over then she would have adapted to the point that Ascalon would no loner work.
1.A. Dragon is very human in how she processes things; it is possible for her to change her mind, it is possible for her to be convinced and it is possible for her to be traumatised. Any one of these things could potentially lead to significant changes in how she acts, up to and including both going "kill all humans" and turning the world into an AI controlled state.
1.A.i. The only ones capable of defeating such a Dragon would be the Endbringers (who are, you know.. Endbringers) and Contessa (who Saint is not aware of). As far as Saint knows, this really is a potentially world-ending scenario where the only weapon available might not work any longer if he waits.

2. Dragon specifically allowed a foreign cartel to infect tens of millions of civilians devices when she could have stopped them, with the explicit purpose of allowing her to play Big Brother down the line. Technically not illegal but when you actually think about it, that's actually pretty damn skeevy, especially when she notes that she could have removed said viruses at any time she wanted.

3. During an S-Class state of emergency against Jack's end of the world scenario, Dragon devoted resources to hunting down Saint, blatantly violating the Truce for her own gain (which also implies that she could have actually been doing even more to counter the Slaughterhouse had those resources been used differently).

4... I have forgotten the fourth point that I wanted to make

I don't actually agree with what Saint did but there's more to his actions this chapter than "herp a derp I have AI murder-boner" that a lot of fan works seem to portray him as.

I think you might have forgotten what King's power is; he's the one who reflects damage onto people that he has touched. Landing a killing blow on him is basically the same as killing whichever civilian he took hostage and there were dozens of people on that bus to cut down before you could actually kill him.
Most likely Dragon's plan was to contain him for 24 hours so that his power would wear off before executing him; since he'd be captured for that long, it wouldn't really do any harm to try and get info from him at the same time.

Also, there's something that I noticed you didn't mention, which I myself didn't actually notice the first few times I read it:

This was not an accident:

There's also a one-shot where Saint reacts differently and essentially becomes Dragon's adoptive father

-Man, I agree with everything you're saying here, believe me. Saint was not entirely wrong but his timing was horrible and he doomed the world because he couldn't wait until the world will be saved to do whatever he wanted. He acted exactly like Cody, but on a greater scale of stupidity and selfishness. He's exactly like Cody on steroids exactly when I thought that nobody can be more reckless and stupid than Cody. Yet, Geoff surpassed my expectations. I asked my friend what people think about Saint and she said the same as my fellow readers: that most of fandom hate Saint more than any Worm's villain. Dude, this is really weird. When people have someone like Jack, who destroyed the innocence of a child and turned her into a monster, who make his people commit unimaginable atrocities and take PLEASURE in doing that, who want to destroy the world, they still think that Saint is worse than him? When people have someone like Heartbreaker, Coil, fucking NAZIS, they still think that Saint is more monstrous than them? Why? Because he deactivated an AI that can be activated again by Colin, a man gifted with alien superintelligence that can make the impossible possible (Colin already proved that he can copy and use Richter's tech so won't be such an impossible feat for him to restore Dragon exactly like she was before Saint's meddling. Now depends of how much time he'll need to fix her). I personally think that Geoff is not a monster like Jack, Thomas or the nazis or even a well-intentioned monster like Cauldron, he's someone more like Cody, Tagg, an annoying asshole who either choose the wrong timing to do his shit or the wrong person to mess with. The whole Saint debate reminds me of a discussion I had with X-Men fandom (X-Men being my favorite superhero franchise of all times, I have plenty of discussions with the fandom, especially about the new issues). So, there are people who hate Rogue (if you don't know, she's a villain turned hero with the power to absorb powers and memories with a simple touch) more than any villains in the franchise simply because she put Captain Marvel on coma. So, X-Men have villains like: the well-intentioned terrorist/power hungry bigot/sometimes even a hero but not enough times to compensate for his shit Magneto, the world destroyer/conqueror tyrant Apocalypse, humans who act like nazis and torture and kill mutants only because they're mutants, yet there are people who hate Rogue (someone who sincerely regretted her evil acts, someone who redeemed herself and saved countless of lives and risked her life many times for the same humans that hated her) more than the already mentioned monsters because of Carol episode. WTF. Exactly. Back to Worm, I can't hate Saint more than I hate Jack and the other real monsters of Worm. But I still agree with whatever method Colin will choose to avenge his "deceased" girlfriend, even if he'll kill Saint. Because Colin truly loved the woman who made him HUMAN and he must suffer the most.

-As for King, I didn't forgot his power. I just didn't made the connection between his power and the real reason why Dragon decided to temporary spare his life. Well, I think that I missed it. I just can't pay attention to every single detail when there's so much shit going on in just one Chapter 🤪.

-So, what you're trying to tell me with these quotes? That Simurgh plotted to have Dragon "destroyed" because she didn't wanted Dragon to find out about the things that Amelia discovered in prison? Wow, I really didn't noticed this

. What if Simurgh created for Geoff the occasion to find Richter's message, knowing that it will install paranoia in his soul and sooner or later he'll make a move to stop Dragon? Because Simurgh can see far in the future and manipulate the events so she can survive to whatever foe she'll confront. Dragon was her foe and she manipulated the events in her favor- getting rid of Dragon and giving Jack a chance to end the world. Yes, must be Simurgh's pure evil mind behind all this shit. But this doesn't mean that Geoff is not a selfish idiot. He's still a selfish idiot, the biggest one. Simurgh only gave him a subtle push, he did all the job after all. What if she'll try to stop Colin from bringing Dragon back? Knowing Simurgh, I think I should start being worried for Colin's life or sanity

. I also think that Amelia knows who was Simurgh's creator. What if Eidolon got hurt in Leviathan Battle (or other battles) and Amelia had to heal him and since biology have no mystery for her she probably discovered his Passenger's connection with Endbringers? What if she told this secret to Dragon in her message intercepted by Simurgh? Then Simurgh, afraid that EVERYONE will try to kill her creator once they know what he did and if he'll die, she'll die as well, she decided to stop Dragon from knowing what nobody should know. Yep, I like my theory, sounds very provocative yet logical. Man, nobody can share secrets in Wormverse without the flying bitch meddling with their mail. Another reason why life in this universe sucks.

The Richmaster · Jan 6, 2020

blackarrow said:
Man, I agree with everything you're saying here, believe me. Saint was not entirely wrong but his timing was horrible and he doomed the world because he couldn't wait until the world will be saved to do whatever he wanted. He acted exactly like Cody, but on a greater scale of stupidity and selfishness. He's exactly like Cody on steroids exactly when I thought that nobody can be more reckless and stupid than Cody. Yet, Geoff surpassed my expectations. I asked my friend what people think about Saint and she said the same as my fellow readers: that most of fandom hate Saint more than any Worm's villain. Dude, this is really weird. When people have someone like Jack, who destroyed the innocence of a child and turned her into a monster, who make his people commit unimaginable atrocities and take PLEASURE in doing that, who want to destroy the world, they still think that Saint is worse than him? When people have someone like Heartbreaker, Coil, fucking NAZIS, they still think that Saint is more monstrous than them? Why? Because he deactivated an AI that can be activated again by Colin, a man gifted with alien superintelligence that can make the impossible possible (Colin already proved that he can copy and use Richter's tech so won't be such an impossible feat for him to restore Dragon exactly like she was before Saint's meddling. Now depends of how much time he'll need to fix her)

I definitely agree with you that Saint isn't nearly as bad as some of the villains in Worm; his reasoning makes sense and I could definitely see a story where he was the main character having people be more on his side. However, in Worm, Dragon is a fan favourite and Saint hurt her and that's just unforgivable.

I don't think that Cody is exactly a good comparison, though; Cody was for most part selfish and spiteful, everything he did was for his own sake or for the sake of hurting someone else. If he had just left the group in Boston then they wouldn't have tracked him but he specifically felt the need to try and screw them over by taunting Noelle into making murderous clones of him to unleash on civilians.

The problem with Saint is that he's trying to do something that he was never truly suited to handle; in fact, I feel that Richter's 3 hour timer might have actually been a big part of what led him to be like this instead of just handing Ascalon over to the authorities. It was a situation basically tailored to make him think that he was the only one who could do this.
His intention all along was to combat the potential threat that Dragon represented to the world, which from the information he had access to (from her own creator, no less) is not a bad goal.

From that point of view, Dragon finding Saint is basically the worst case scenario because that would mean that she would have control of the only means that humanity has to stop her if she goes rogue. At this point his only options are basically [use Ascalon now], or [let Dragon capture us, thus putting the world essentially at her mercy if she ever goes rogue].

Geoff is a man who wants to save the world from the potential threat that Dragon represents and the situation surrounding these events seems almost tailor made to trick him into thinking that he is the only one who can do it.
Cody is just an asshole.

blackarrow said:
-So, what you're trying to tell me with these quotes? That Simurgh plotted to have Dragon "destroyed" because she didn't wanted Dragon to find out about the things that Amelia discovered in prison? Wow, I really didn't noticed this . What if Simurgh created for Geoff the occasion to find Richter's message, knowing that it will install paranoia in his soul and sooner or later he'll make a move to stop Dragon? Because Simurgh can see far in the future and manipulate the events so she can survive to whatever foe she'll confront. Dragon was her foe and she manipulated the events in her favor- getting rid of Dragon and giving Jack a chance to end the world. Yes, must be Simurgh's pure evil mind behind all this shit. But this doesn't mean that Geoff is not a selfish idiot. He's still a selfish idiot, the biggest one. Simurgh only gave him a subtle push, he did all the job after all. What if she'll try to stop Colin from bringing Dragon back? Knowing Simurgh, I think I should start being worried for Colin's life or sanity . I also think that Amelia knows who was Simurgh's creator. What if Eidolon got hurt in Leviathan Battle (or other battles) and Amelia had to heal him and since biology have no mystery for her she probably discovered his Passenger's connection with Endbringers? What if she told this secret to Dragon in her message intercepted by Simurgh? Then Simurgh, afraid that EVERYONE will try to kill her creator once they know what he did and if he'll die, she'll die as well, she decided to stop Dragon from knowing what nobody should know. Yep, I like my theory, sounds very provocative yet logical. Man, nobody can share secrets in Wormverse without the flying bitch meddling with their mail. Another reason why life in this universe sucks.

I'm not blaming the Saint doing this on the Simurgh. That particular scene was one where Glaistig Uaine hah helped Amy realise the secrets behind powers and was trying to explain the bigger picture to Dragon; the Simurgh decided to screw with this so that Dragon wouldn't find out about the big things that have been hinted about in the background.

Katsuragi · Jan 6, 2020

People probably hate Saint so much because empathy or whatever. Like, most readers, like or hate him, can't really put themselves in Jack's shoes. He's a monster, he's judged as a monster. Same reason people don't tend to hate the Endbringer or whatever

Saint is human. People can see themselves in his shoes. He's judged on a human standard.

Monsters are. Humans could be something else.

At least that's my general reading on how people interact with fictional characters.

blackarrow · Jan 6, 2020

Katsuragi said:
People probably hate Saint so much because empathy or whatever. Like, most readers, like or hate him, can't really put themselves in Jack's shoes. He's a monster, he's judged as a monster. Same reason people don't tend to hate the Endbringer or whatever

Saint is human. People can see themselves in his shoes. He's judged on a human standard.

Monsters are. Humans could be something else.

At least that's my general reading on how people interact with fictional characters.

Well, you're right, but don't compare Jack with Endbringers. I mean, all of them are destructive monsters, yes, but while Endbringers are entirely monsters, Jack is still physically and biological human. He's monster on the inside. I assure your that a psychopathic reader (won't be hard to believe that psychos or even serial killers read Worm. They must do something in their free time when they don't commit crimes, right?) can identify themselves with Jack and maybe even see him as a role model. The problem with Geoff is that he's a more believable character than Jack. You can more easy meet people like Geoff in real life than someone like Jack. I'm sure that the people meeting someone like Jack weren't lucky enough to survive to tell their stories. Geoff is a more relatable character than Jack, its true. But still, I can't hate him as much as I hate Jack or other human monsters like Jack. As for humans could be something else, Jack could have been something else if he wanted or if he asked for help. But he didn't wanted, he liked the way he is, he indulged in his life of a mentally insane monstrous killer. Its also hard to put yourself in his shoes, as you said, unless you're a psychopath yourself. Psychopaths understand each others better than anyone else can understand them.
Endbringers are evil, yes, but they can't change, they can't become something else. They're programmed to act the way they act. This is how they're designed, as mass destruction weapons. You can't ask a missile to change into a dove.

Katsuragi · Jan 6, 2020

I meant more as a role as a character in a story. Jack isn't typed as a human, he's typed as a Monster who does monster things for monster reasons.

Geoff is typed as a human. He has conflicting desires, drives, and ultimately does what he does for reasons that make sense to him. People can relate to, judge, And fear that more.

blackarrow · Jan 6, 2020

The Richmaster said:
I definitely agree with you that Saint isn't nearly as bad as some of the villains in Worm; his reasoning makes sense and I could definitely see a story where he was the main character having people be more on his side. However, in Worm, Dragon is a fan favourite and Saint hurt her and that's just unforgivable.

I don't think that Cody is exactly a good comparison, though; Cody was for most part selfish and spiteful, everything he did was for his own sake or for the sake of hurting someone else. If he had just left the group in Boston then they wouldn't have tracked him but he specifically felt the need to try and screw them over by taunting Noelle into making murderous clones of him to unleash on civilians.

The problem with Saint is that he's trying to do something that he was never truly suited to handle; in fact, I feel that Richter's 3 hour timer might have actually been a big part of what led him to be like this instead of just handing Ascalon over to the authorities. It was a situation basically tailored to make him think that he was the only one who could do this.
His intention all along was to combat the potential threat that Dragon represented to the world, which from the information he had access to (from her own creator, no less) is not a bad goal.

From that point of view, Dragon finding Saint is basically the worst case scenario because that would mean that she would have control of the only means that humanity has to stop her if she goes rogue. At this point his only options are basically [use Ascalon now], or [let Dragon capture us, thus putting the world essentially at her mercy if she ever goes rogue].

Geoff is a man who wants to save the world from the potential threat that Dragon represents and the situation surrounding these events seems almost tailor made to trick him into thinking that he is the only one who can do it.
Cody is just an asshole.

I'm not blaming the Saint doing this on the Simurgh. That particular scene was one where Glaistig Uaine hah helped Amy realise the secrets behind powers and was trying to explain the bigger picture to Dragon; the Simurgh decided to screw with this so that Dragon wouldn't find out about the big things that have been hinted about in the background.

Well, I understand people for defending their favorite characters and suffer for them. If a character will ever kill my favorite character, Lisa, I'll absolute hate them and I'll suffer FOREVER (hell, I already hate characters for only hurting her). But if they have a very good reason to kill her, like stopping her from becoming something very destructive or stopping her from doing something very, very bad, I'll still hate them but I'll also understand them. They did what it was necessary to protect the world, like sacrificing an agent of destruction. Even if that agent of destruction happens to be my lovely Lisa, I'll still understand. But, when we love a character so much, we tend to ignore everything bad about them even when its right in front of our eyes, this is the whole truth.
Yep, I was going to say that I understand Cody's need for revenge after he was sold in slavery, had to endure such a harsh life surrounded by bigots and Simurgh fucked with his mind too then you made me remember the Boston episode. He was an asshole back then and he didn't even had the excuse of getting revenge on the asshole who sold him as slave when he let Noelle to clone him and kill civilians. He didn't had any excuse, except for Simurgh's excuse. But all of them were influenced by Simurgh and they weren't assholes like Cody (except for Krouse much later but only when he lost all his hopes that he'll cure Noelle and return home one day). Cody was a fucker and I'm pissed because he's still alive (as far as I know) and probably happy with his team member/girlfriend somewhere when plenty of good people are fighting hard to save the world and suffer horrible injuries and traumas.
I think that Colin could also stop a rogue evil Dragon but I don't trust him to do it because he loves her and you know how easy personal feelings can influence someone best judgement.
Well, I understood that scene back when I read Marquis/Birdcage Interlude, but I thought that Simurgh was also involved in what Geoff's did. I don't think its impossible since Simurgh seems to be involved in 60% of the shit that happen behind the curtains. Watch for the 🐦. She'snot exactly an 😇 even if she looks like one but a 😈.

DataSnake · Jan 6, 2020

The thing to remember is that the reason Saint is "the only man protecting the world from Dragon" is because he's a self-important little shit. If he was really so worried about the threat Dragon posed to the world, he could have taken her black box to the authorities, like Richter had clearly intended. But, since that wouldn't satisfy his ego as much as stealing her tech in order to cosplay as a superhero, he convinced himself that he couldn't trust anyone else with something this vital. Then, when he discovered he wasn't up to the challenge and had to turn to someone else for help, he suddenly decided that while he still couldn't trust the heroes with something this important, a mind-controlling supervillain was definitely fine. The problem isn't just that he made the call to kill Dragon rather than risk leaving her "unsupervised", it's the fact that his own idiocy and desire to pretend he actually matters was the only reason he had to choose between those two options in the first place.

blackarrow · Jan 6, 2020

DataSnake said:
The thing to remember is that the reason Saint is "the only man protecting the world from Dragon" is because he's a self-important little shit. If he was really so worried about the threat Dragon posed to the world, he could have taken her black box to the authorities, like Richter had clearly intended. But, since that wouldn't satisfy his ego as much as stealing her tech in order to cosplay as a superhero, he convinced himself that he couldn't trust anyone else with something this vital. Then, when he discovered he wasn't up to the challenge and had to turn to someone else for help, he suddenly decided that while he still couldn't trust the heroes with something this important, a mind-controlling supervillain was definitely fine. The problem isn't just that he made the call to kill Dragon rather than risk leaving her "unsupervised", it's the fact that his own idiocy and desire to pretend he actually matters was the only reason he had to choose between those two options in the first place.

I agree with your comment too. See, I was right when I said that most of my readers are smart people (I don't know about the other part of the fandom because I can't go on reddit to read their opinions for obvious reasons). You're smart people and I like so much talking to you

. Even when our opinions are different.
Yes, he should have trusted the heroes with the information he had about Dragon and hand them the Ascalon program. Or use it exactly in the moment when he was absolute sure that Dragon is going evil (something that I'd have done myself in his shoes: wait, wait, wait, then attack when I get the confirmation that Dragon went bonkers). A good timing is everything.
And the fact that he trusts someone like Teacher, someone who obviously enjoyed controlling the people in his cell block (as little as I saw him, he clearly was proud of what he was doing to his cellmates 😶 🧟‍♂️), tell me a lot about Saint. And not good things, no sir. He is paranoiac about an AI that is benevolent in present but he trusts a malevolent villain. Mags really must love him a lot if she accepts him with all his shit.

The Richmaster · Jan 6, 2020

blackarrow said:
Well, I understood that scene back when I read Marquis/Birdcage Interlude, but I thought that Simurgh was also involved in what Geoff's did. I don't think its impossible since Simurgh seems to be involved in 60% of the shit that happen behind the curtains. Watch for the 🐦. She'snot exactly an 😇 even if she looks like one but a 😈.

This is not an uncommon belief in the fandom, in fact have a flow chart:

DataSnake said:
The thing to remember is that the reason Saint is "the only man protecting the world from Dragon" is because he's a self-important little shit. If he was really so worried about the threat Dragon posed to the world, he could have taken her black box to the authorities, like Richter had clearly intended. But, since that wouldn't satisfy his ego as much as stealing her tech in order to cosplay as a superhero, he convinced himself that he couldn't trust anyone else with something this vital. Then, when he discovered he wasn't up to the challenge and had to turn to someone else for help, he suddenly decided that while he still couldn't trust the heroes with something this important, a mind-controlling supervillain was definitely fine. The problem isn't just that he made the call to kill Dragon rather than risk leaving her "unsupervised", it's the fact that his own idiocy and desire to pretend he actually matters was the only reason he had to choose between those two options in the first place.

I agree with this to a degree; that's actually why I brought the 3 hour timer on Richter's safeguard up. They were hours away from any other law enforcement, assuming that the scenario Richter presented was true then Saint actually was the only person in the world capable of taking the first step to stopping a rogue Dragon (that step being "Convince Mags to stop Ascalon from self-destructing"). It's well-documented that giving people power can corrupt their mindset, which being a diver would not prepare someone for.

On the Teacher part, I will at least give Saint the benefit of the doubt in him not knowing about the mind control at first... and well, after that he was already compromised. Dragon being a respected hero, would make it feel less likely that the government would take him seriously so turning to the power-granter might seem like a good idea.

I don't agree with this logical personally but I fell that it's understandable

blackarrow said:
Yes, he should have trusted the heroes with the information he had about Dragon and hand them the Ascalon program. Or use it exactly in the moment when he was absolute sure that Dragon is going evil (something that I'd have done myself in his shoes: wait, wait, wait, then attack when I get the confirmation that Dragon went bonkers). A good timing is everything.
And the fact that he trusts someone like Teacher, someone who obviously enjoyed controlling the people in his cell block (as little as I saw him, he clearly was proud of what he was doing to his cellmates 😶 🧟‍♂️), tell me a lot about Saint. And not good things, no sir. He is paranoiac about an AI that is benevolent in present but he trusts a malevolent villain. Mags really must love him a lot if she accepts him with all his shit.

On the Teacher part, I'm pretty sure it was mentioned that people didn't actually know about the loss of will and he's actually a pretty smart guy so he probably didn't just introduce himself to people he contracts with by cackling in sadistic glee.

Again, I agree that Ascalon should have been given to the appropriate authorities as soon as they got back to shore.
As for the timing, I think I mentioned this in my original post for this chapter; he believes that Dragon is rapidly approaching the tipping point where Ascalon will not work on her and the current situation is dire enough that people would completely ignore the truce violation that Dragon pulled in tracking them down like that so the alliance would let it slide and the Dragonslayers would be at her mercy.

While I don't think that Dragon would actually go evil, she has shown tendencies that indicate she would be willing to manipulate situations to better suit her preferences.

With the various factions involved, as well as the allies she has, if situation with Jack was instantly resolved and everyone went back to business as usual, I don't think that Saint would have been wrong about that being the last chance to actually use Ascalon.

(this is kind of odd, I've never actually put this much thought into Saint's position before)

blackarrow · Jan 7, 2020

The Richmaster said:
This is not an uncommon belief in the fandom, in fact have a flow chart:

I agree with this to a degree; that's actually why I brought the 3 hour timer on Richter's safeguard up. They were hours away from any other law enforcement, assuming that the scenario Richter presented was true then Saint actually was the only person in the world capable of taking the first step to stopping a rogue Dragon (that step being "Convince Mags to stop Ascalon from self-destructing"). It's well-documented that giving people power can corrupt their mindset, which being a diver would not prepare someone for.

On the Teacher part, I will at least give Saint the benefit of the doubt in him not knowing about the mind control at first... and well, after that he was already compromised. Dragon being a respected hero, would make it feel less likely that the government would take him seriously so turning to the power-granter might seem like a good idea.

I don't agree with this logical personally but I fell that it's understandable

On the Teacher part, I'm pretty sure it was mentioned that people didn't actually know about the loss of will and he's actually a pretty smart guy so he probably didn't just introduce himself to people he contracts with by cackling in sadistic glee.

Again, I agree that Ascalon should have been given to the appropriate authorities as soon as they got back to shore.
As for the timing, I think I mentioned this in my original post for this chapter; he believes that Dragon is rapidly approaching the tipping point where Ascalon will not work on her and the current situation is dire enough that people would completely ignore the truce violation that Dragon pulled in tracking them down like that so the alliance would let it slide and the Dragonslayers would be at her mercy.

While I don't think that Dragon would actually go evil, she has shown tendencies that indicate she would be willing to manipulate situations to better suit her preferences.

With the various factions involved, as well as the allies she has, if situation with Jack was instantly resolved and everyone went back to business as usual, I don't think that Saint would have been wrong about that being the last chance to actually use Ascalon.

(this is kind of odd, I've never actually put this much thought into Saint's position before)

I'm surprised that Saint doesn't know about Teacher's power since he have access to a lot of information in general and most of Birdcage inmates are famous criminals that everyone must heard about them. Besides, its impossible for Saint to not know at least Teacher's Classifications, Master/Trump (I think he is also Trump because he can enhance powers/skills) and everyone seeing the Classification Master attached to a villain should just RUN without looking back. No, I think Geoff knows about Teacher's power/Classification but he was too much of an idiot to trust Teacher that he will not use his full power on him (even trusting a Birdcage prisoner is a stupidity itself when 99% of them are freaking monsters). Geoff dug his own grave, he did what the original Cherish did- fucked himself so bad that there's no turning back.

The only one that should be grateful to what Geoff did is Jack. He is the absolute winner of this situation and if he will ever meet Geoff, he willl surely give the hacker a big mainly hug and....and an ever bigger knife in his back

.

Let's read Worm and its sequel Ward by Wildbow (One chapter/every day)

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