Let's Read: Warhammer Fantasy: End Times

Do you prefer the current slow, detailed method or would you like a quicker, less detailed one?

  • Status Quo

    Votes: 28 66.7%
  • Quicker and less detailed

    Votes: 14 33.3%

  • Total voters
    42
If I recall correctly there was a lot of bitterness and spite.
Oh yeah. Can't speak for everyone but I was saltier then the Dead sea. It didn't help that the reason i turned back to FB was because i was tired of Space Marines...only to see FB replaced with more Space Marines.
But there were other reasons. The rule changes introduced in ET were broken as fuck, and the first edition of AoS barely qualifies as a game. Shops were selling FB stuff till the very end even though it was about to rendered obsolete. And the rules for use of legacy factions in AoS were a mockery. Giving bonuses if Imperial player had larger moustache then his opponent, or making bret players fake drinking from a cup and yell "for the Lady!".
In short introduction of AoS was a mess. And people were pissed off about it.
 
Well, there is this:

"Here and there, the elves succeeded in stemming the tide of corruption. Banners were raised across the Ten Kingdoms, and armies marched to oppose the daemonic assault. Protected from the daemonic malice by the steel of Sapherian swordmasters, elven magi drew upon every known shred of sorcerous lore, and dispersed the roiling magic into the Great Vortex. Such was dangerous work; no few mages lost their sanity in the striving, minds driven beyond the precipice of reason by daemonic whispers. Only in Yvresse did spear and bow alone hold the tide at bay, for the mistwalkers of those parts had long fought such threats." Page 20

I can't afford to go over everything, so I occasionally skip over some things. We'll be here forever otherwise. But they do mention the Vortex for what it's worth. The Chaos attack occurs anyway. People die. The usual.

If you ever want to make sure something or if you're confused about a particular story beat, you can always ask. I can't guarantee that I have an answer, especially right away, but part of this read through is that I should theoretically be able to clear confusion on certain matters.

Ah. Thank you. I suspect there will be a lot of questions as this goes on.

Apparently none of the writers for End Times knew anything about Age of Sigmar, the two writing teams were kept completely separate until the End Times was completely wrapped up and published. They'd just get glimpses of concept art and apparently had the general impression that there'd be a 'rising from the ashes' arc for each of the factions that'd generally transform and twist their cultures in strange and cool ways. They didn't realize it was going to be a complete blank slate situation.
Wow. Just uh. Wow. Jesus. That's straight up evil. Plus a bunch of wasted work, since I imagine the writers must have been brain storming some neat stuff to use for post End Times. Just... damn.
 
The part that's easy to miss in hindsight is the three whole months between "the world ends" and "here's Age of Sigmar!" This was before GW had any kind of social media presence, so it was three months of complete radio silence with the setting completely dead. It got ugly. People were burning their armies on youtube. Even if Age of Sigmar had been great, they'd set the stage for a lot of people to be a lot of angry.
Yeah that most certainly would leave a lot of bitter feelings in the mouth of fans, since from what I heard a lot of the End Times was just your favorite characters getting killed or corrupted or generally going out in unsatisfactory ways. To have multiple months of radio silence after all of that just gave them time for the bitterness to smolder into hatred, probably not helped by the fact that from what I heard initially the rules for Age of Sigmar weren't all that good.
Apparently none of the writers for End Times knew anything about Age of Sigmar, the two writing teams were kept completely separate until the End Times was completely wrapped up and published. They'd just get glimpses of concept art and apparently had the general impression that there'd be a 'rising from the ashes' arc for each of the factions that'd generally transform and twist their cultures in strange and cool ways. They didn't realize it was going to be a complete blank slate situation.
That is a big mistake in my opinion since it prevented the writers from doing any sort of foreshadowing or generally justify Age of Sigmar being a thing. You need communication in that kind of project.
 
I'm glad this thread is happening, because I think I come across as a bit overzealous when someone gets me started on Age of Sigmar and it can be hard for someone looking back at the big picture to understand why. A journey through the entire arc that Warhammer fans were taken on back then, beat by beat and blow by blow, might really help people understand where I'm coming from a lot better.
Fair enough. I know very little about AoS, and any time I hear about it just separate it in my head from WF and the End Times, but I can see now how it would be hard to do that if I were there.
 
Fair enough. I know very little about AoS, and any time I hear about it just separate it in my head from WF and the End Times, but I can see now how it would be hard to do that if I were there.
FB died for that thing to be made. That is difficult to forget. Especially sinse they still use plenty of FB characters. Hell, one is in the bloody name. I giess this was supposed to attract the FB fans, but it feels like yet another insilt instead.
 
And the rules for use of legacy factions in AoS were a mockery. Giving bonuses if Imperial player had larger moustache then his opponent, or making bret players fake drinking from a cup and yell "for the Lady!".

This is bad enough in a vacuum, but it was part of a one-two punch. Warhammer Fantasy had always been, at least in the mind of some of its players, a more strategic game than Warhammer 40k, with the beloved square-based 'rank and flank' system being seen as requiring more careful thought to use properly than all models being round-based skirmishers. The arc in at least the community I grew up in was that you played 40k as a young teenager and would 'graduate' to Fantasy when you wanted something more challenging than banging Space Marines together. It leaked early on that Age of Sigmar was all round-based skirmishers and that set off alarm bells for a lot of players, and the narrative started to grow that they'd 'dumbed it down for a younger audience'. When the legacy rules came out (and combined with, you know, no point values for models), the silly rules were seen as not only confirming those fears, but rubbing it in the faces of everyone that had those fears.
 
FB died for that thing to be made. That is difficult to forget. Especially sinse they still use plenty of FB characters. Hell, one is in the bloody name. I giess this was supposed to attract the FB fans, but it feels like yet another insilt instead.
I should clarify, it was mostly End Times I ignored, because from everything I could tell, it was bad—though not that bad—and was connected to both, but the hate was only for AoS. So as a distant observer it always felt more like End Times was the beginning of AoS than the end of FB. This, however, puts it into perspective, and I see the… not pity, but mourning? Yeah, the mourning where AoS got hate. Especially since that Old World thing and Total War Warhammer hadn't come out, if I remember my timelines right, so it was just gone.
 
so it was just gone.
Honestly, if Fantasy were just gone, with 40k left as the only line, it would have been better. Instead it got replaced with something which at the time was absolute shit. Don't know how AoS is right now, and I don't care but at the time it was awful. Rules were crap, what little lore was there was bad and the legacy characters were constantly reminding us of what this thing replaced. They could not have fucked up the launch of AoS harder if they tried.
 
Honestly, if Fantasy were just gone, with 40k left as the only line, it would have been better. Instead it got replaced with something which at the time was absolute shit. Don't know how AoS is right now, and I don't care but at the time it was awful. Rules were crap, what little lore was there was bad and the legacy characters were constantly reminding us of what this thing replaced. They could not have fucked up the launch of AoS harder if they tried.
I meant for those three months before AoS came out. Far as I can tell it basically looked like GW just killed one setting, and didn't bother to mention that there would be another coming, so for that time End Times was simply the end of FB. You couldn't say "oh, that was just a badly handled transition", and dismiss it as one bad part among many. AoS definitely would have made it worse, but before that it must have sucked, and AoS just made it worse, as well as being made worse by it.
 
Part 3 Nagash: Empire in Peril
Empire in Peril:

The narrative now moves to the Empire, and boy do things go bad fast.

First off, a throughline across the Empire section is the Twin Tailed Comet. I don't think I need to explain what the Comet is, but to the Empire it is a religious symbol, but also a portent of times to come. And not a good one.

The first thing that happens as the Comet blazes through the sky is that the Drakwald explodes with rumors about Malagor the Dark Omen, winged beastmen and harbinger of doom. For centuries he was seen as superstition, until he was spotted personally by Gregor Martak, Patriarch of the Amber College. Keep your eyes on this guy, he'll come back later.

The second thing that happens as the Comet passes Morrisleb, is that mutation spreads across the Empire, and sicknesses and diseases that accompany the baleful influence of Chaos are immune to the prayers of Shallyans or to the prostelysing of Sigmarites.

The third thing that happens, in response to the sickness and disease, is when unscrupulous merchants the Empire over start selling "cures" to these diseases that are in fact colored water or distilled poison. These merchants grew rich and prosperous over the desperation of the populace, and only in Middenheim did that popularity take a fall when Boris Todbringers' nephew fell prey to such a tincture, so he decided to make an example stringing the merchant who sold said tincture on the city walls.

The fourth thing that happens, as the Comet sails past Mannisleb, is that the Empire becomes full of zealots, fanatics and doomsayers who rile up the citizenry and cause chaos within the city, ransacking noble mansions and stealing their property or setting things ablaze. The state armies were mobilised to shut down those groups, but at some points, such as Nuln, it got so severe that the army couldn't handle it properly. In this section is a part that left a very sour taste in my mouth, because it is a continuing trend of treating Emmanuelle von Liebwitz in a manner that I struggle to refer to in any way that is not simply misogyny:

"The Countess von Liebwitz would have been sent to the bonfires as a witch and adulteress, were it not for the actions of a retired dockwatch captain. Gathering a desperate band of watchmen and militia, this captain rescued the countess from the flames, reclaimed the city's old quarter and held it long enough for the Knights Griffon and reinforcements from Reikland to finally quell the riots." Page 27

The fifth thing to occur, as the Comet sails past the constellation of Kerr the Slayer of Fiends, is that Mannfred von Carstein secedes Sylvania from the Empire and covers the county in impenetrable darkness. Volkmar the Grim, Grand Theogonist of Sigmar, is outraged at the audacity and ventured into the darkness. He did not leave. Bone towers rose around the darkness, and those Witch Hunters who escaped say that holy light did not work within the land. Balthasar Gelt rises to the challenge and proposes a wall of faith consisting of enchanted/blessed material that would seal the undead within Sylvania. The proposal goes through and the wall prevents anyone from leaving.

The sixth thing to happen, as Karl Franz was preparing an army to purge Sylvania once and for all:

"Then came the riders from Kislev.

Syrgei Tannarov, Boyar of Chebokov, and his escort of ungol horsemen came to Altdorf at dawn, two days before the Emperor was due to depart for the Sylvania campaign. The comet was now so bright in the skies that it was visible by day, a second sun peering down from the heavens. The Kislevites had ridden their steeds half to death, and carried dire news – the northlanders were on the march once again. Kislev was already half-fallen, Tannarov warned, with all the lands north and west of Bolgasgrad awash in a sea of barbarians and daemons. Given the severity of the news, Karl Franz had expected the Ice Queen to invoke the terms of their old alliance, and call upon the Empire to march north to Kislev's salvation. Tannarov made no such demand. Kislev was already gone, he said, and went on to tell of a series of battles along the River Lynsk, battles the Tsarina fought not out of hope for her own people's survival, but so that the Empire might have time to avoid a similar fate." Page 28

Kislev is gone.

With that somber news, Karl Franz mobilises his troops and reinforces the border of his Empire, granting troops to the ingenious military strategist the Elector Count of Hochland Aldebrand Ludenhof. Only 7 in 10 of the reinforcing troops could make the trip thanks to the Beastmen and terrors within the forests, and Aldebrand was forced to fight off the forces of Vilitch the Curseling's hordes around Castle Von Rauken in Ostland and other areas of the border with the forces of Ostermark and Talabecland.

In the meantime, Karl Franz was asking for aid, but all he could see was that all the Empire's allies were in just as much trouble as they were. Even the hardy and always reliable Dwarves were uncharacteristically reluctant to provide aid. Then the Comet reached its height soon after Aldebrand Ludenhof's victory against Vilitch, attained from sniping one of the Curseling's two heads with a Hochland Long Rifle:

"Then, as the twin-tailed comet reached its perigee, outriders and ungol horsemen brought word of other hordes of northmen drawing south across the steppes, hordes that far eclipsed those thus far encountered. Ludenhof's army, the largest Empire formation yet that fought in the north, barely outnumbered even the smallest of the newcomers' forces. In Altdorf, Karl Franz heard tell of the worsening situation and redoubled his diplomatic efforts. If the Empire were to endure this war, it would need allies. If there were no allies to be had, it would need a miracle." Page 30

The next page shifts into narrative again, this time from the perspective of Balthasar Gelt. I can't post the entire conversation, and it's hard to explain this without a lot of explanation and context, so let me abbreviate things in a way that hopefully doesn't confuse:

  • Balthasar Gelt received some sort of message with a particular signet that his father told him he could always trust. He meets the individual who called him in and finds a Bretonnian with a Montfort accent. The implications are super heavy that she's Genevieve Dieudone, infamous Lahmian Vampire. Gelt's dad knows her for some reason.
  • It's revealed that the wall of faith idea was not actually Gelts, it was the idea of an acolyte who showed little to no promise named Dieter. His throat was ripped out by what appeared to be a wild animal two days after the suggestion, but Gelt took it and ran with it anyway. He didn't seem all that worried about the signs happening here.
  • Genevieve heavily implies that a "she" had sent her to give Gelt advice. Implication is that it's Neferata.
  • Genevieve suggests that Gelt expands the wall of faith to cover the northern border. Gelt exclaims that it's never been done, Genevieve laughs and said of course, there are far more realms than this tiny space, and gives him a scroll with magical instructions for something. She says that while magic is rising, much is now possible that could not be done before.
  • The meeting place is a brothel. Gelt reveals that he "disapproves of the trade". I disapprove of Gelt's lack of support for sex workers. Shame on Gelt.
The scene has the following exchange, which I felt provided an idea of how it went:

"Gelt unfurled the scroll and pored over its contents with growing surprise. The ritual it described would be a great undertaking, but it might very well work. He would not have considered such a strategy before the triumph over Sylvania, but he had found his horizons broadening of late.

Yet still he had his doubts. 'But what manner of genius would I be if I succumbed to such transparent manipulation?'

'What manner of genius would you be if you did not?' the girl countered, levity once more in her voice" Page 31

As you can see, a lot's happened in a very short period of time. I feel a bit overwhelmed. I think I'll take a break for today and resume later. It seems the next faction is Athel Loren- ah wait. The next look is Beastmen, but they only get two pages, so I'll lump them in with Athel Loren.

I also figured out the structure of the book. Apparently the parts I'm reading are not even Chapter 1 yet. It's all introduction. They're doing an overview of what's happening with every faction, and then transitioning into a narrative. I skipped ahead and saw that Chapter 1 is from Mannfred's perspective around 2523 IC, so there is some hope to be had. Just 20 more pages of overview before we get to the actual story part of the book.
 
...they really gave Kislev a send-off that amounts to 'yeah, we're doomed, don't bother trying to help us LOL'?
 
"Then came the riders from Kislev.

Syrgei Tannarov, Boyar of Chebokov, and his escort of ungol horsemen came to Altdorf at dawn, two days before the Emperor was due to depart for the Sylvania campaign. The comet was now so bright in the skies that it was visible by day, a second sun peering down from the heavens. The Kislevites had ridden their steeds half to death, and carried dire news – the northlanders were on the march once again. Kislev was already half-fallen, Tannarov warned, with all the lands north and west of Bolgasgrad awash in a sea of barbarians and daemons. Given the severity of the news, Karl Franz had expected the Ice Queen to invoke the terms of their old alliance, and call upon the Empire to march north to Kislev's salvation. Tannarov made no such demand. Kislev was already gone, he said, and went on to tell of a series of battles along the River Lynsk, battles the Tsarina fought not out of hope for her own people's survival, but so that the Empire might have time to avoid a similar fate." Page 28

Kislev is gone.

This is going to set the tone for the treatment for a lot of neglected but beloved factions throughout the End Times.
 
…I mean, at least the Empire is apparently doing something? Like, of all the factions so far they seem to be the only ones whose leaders aren't just locked in their rooms ignoring the world. Shit's still going down hard, and everybody who could even think about helping is… well, locked in their rooms ignoring the world—or outright dead, poor Kislev—but at least they're actually getting some wins.
 
You should read all of this in the context of the previous GW CEO being incompetent, and the fact WHFB sales were tanking due to meta infantry blobs being hard to get into and the self-reinforcing problem of supporting non-selling things being nonexistent due to not selling due to not being supported. As much as people complain about Space Marines or similar models, they are sold because Marines and infantry at that size are easy to paint for newbies and young people which gives the financial incentive to upgrade other model lines. For example, without Primaris Marines, you can kiss the new Eldar sculpts so desired by grognards goodbye, and without Stormcast there is no Old World. Don't search for a coherent narrative in wargames, the only thing the narrative serves is Black Library/equivalent book sales and justification of any faction fighting any other faction in the wargame at any point in the timeline so that anyone can use any model. The biggest example of a creative problem would be Squats, because there simply wasn't any creative inspiration for them as the original designers of that faction left before 40k exploded in to its status as market leader.
 
Bit on the nose with poor Priest Dieter there eh? Crazy they even managed to build the damn wall though. Sylvania isn't small and it's not like the undead and vampires would just let them do it... also you know... vampires and a good few of their beasts can fly? Then there's the rivers to account for...

Plus really. With all that happening so fast. I'm rather shocked the Empire didn't just collapse outright. Doesn't seem like they'll be able to do much at all now. Especially with all those damned Shallyan Berserkers spreading chaos and Chaos unchecked.
 
It was an extreme rush job. An easy way to see is that is the difference in quality shown in AoS books, which are very entertaining. They wanted to get it over with as soon as possible.
 
I've already read the next section, which will be Beastmen+Wood Elves, and it should be fairly informative. I underestimated the level of effort that would come from attempting to express my thoughts while accurately portraying what is happening, because by god is there a lot happening. There's also the assumption that you have prior knowledge of all existing plot points because the very start of Athel Loren mentions a "Battle of Quenelles" that you would have no idea about if you didn't check the Wood Elves 8th Edition timeline.

I'm actually a bit confused they just skipped right over Mallobaude. Maybe they'll backtrack at some point, possibly in the Bretonnia section. That guy was being built up since 6th Edition.
Bit on the nose with poor Priest Dieter there eh? Crazy they even managed to build the damn wall though. Sylvania isn't small and it's not like the undead and vampires would just let them do it... also you know... vampires and a good few of their beasts can fly? Then there's the rivers to account for...

Plus really. With all that happening so fast. I'm rather shocked the Empire didn't just collapse outright. Doesn't seem like they'll be able to do much at all now. Especially with all those damned Shallyan Berserkers spreading chaos and Chaos unchecked.
I think I should make it clear that the acolyte in question could be from the Colleges. The Colleges do have a tendency to name some of their lower ranking members Acolytes for some reason.

Also, I have a piece of insight that I'm unsure if I should offer this early because it might be a spoiler, but I think it's safe to say that the Vampires weren't actually all that determined to stop the wall. That's all I'll say on that matter.
 
I know of a fanwork or two set in the Warhammer universe that seem to have searched for and found a coherent narrative to work with.
In general context. At the end of the day, some people legitimately having fun online isn't influential to being able to squeeze enjoyment out of the tabletop wargame, which is the primary financial incentive of what narrative that can be pulled out. It is not a pixy perfect world.
 
Just because we can understand the greater context of upper level executives in the corporate chain not caring about the narrative doesn't mean that the writers making the story aren't often trying their best, or that the fans shouldn't be trying to find a coherent narrative that they can analyse and dissect and play around with. Warhammer wasn't just a Wargame, it was a setting that included RPG books and novels as well. It matters a lot to people, so I think it's unfair to go around telling people to "think about it from a corporate perspective, don't try to find narrative coherency".
 
Just because we can understand the greater context of upper level executives in the corporate chain not caring about the narrative doesn't mean that the writers making the story aren't often trying their best, or that the fans shouldn't be trying to find a coherent narrative that they can analyse and dissect and play around with. Warhammer wasn't just a Wargame, it was a setting that included RPG books and novels as well. It matters a lot to people, so I think it's unfair to go around telling people to "think about it from a corporate perspective, don't try to find narrative coherency".
Yeah. It's like, even if it was genuinely necessary to kill FB for money and profitability reasons, the clusterfuck from how they went about it was decidedly unnecessary. And probably cost them quite a bit of money from fans who refused to entertain AoS simply on principle, if you insist on looking at it from the business side of things.
 
As a personal detail, I would like to note that I actually like Age of Sigmar as it sits now. The start was a goddamn mess and I can see by looking back, but as a new fan who came into the hobby and is privy to the entirety of the development of AoS through the Editions, I like the way it's currently structured and I do enjoy the current mechanics quite a bit. I think, as it currently stands, that people might be a little unfair in the way they talk about Stormcast Eternals and comparing them to Space Marines. Yes, aesthetically, even from the beginning they had a similarity from a visual perspective. I do however think that they are genuinely compelling as a concept, because they are effectively Daemons of Order. They are "immortal" in the sense that Sigmar looked at Daemons and thought "why shouldn't I have some myself?" and took the souls of human heroes and made it so that whenever they died, they would turn into lightning and could be reforged. Except every time they're reforged, they lose memories and parts of themselves, becoming more and more hollow until they start to rampage and lose who they were.

I also understand why people feel so much vitriol towards them and Age of Sigmar even if some of it might be undeserved, because by god did GW handle the transition awfully and the bad start did not encourage many Fantasy fans to stick around.

Once I'm done with End Times, I might go through an overview of Age of Sigmar for those interested. You'd be well within your right to choose not to give it a chance, but I do think that it's in a good place right now, and it deserves some recognition despite the... struggles it went through.
 
I also understand why people feel so much vitriol towards them and Age of Sigmar even if some of it might be undeserved, because by god did GW handle the transition awfully and the bad start did not encourage many Fantasy fans to stick around.
I'd call it a golden space marine (and let me tell you, "Space marine" is not a value neutral word from me, I left GW behind mostly because of too much Space marines), perched on the ashes of the best thing GW ever did. Suffice to say, my opinion of AoS is... prejudiced, and I doubt I'm the only one with this view. (And yes, the Sigmarines are still pretty much Space Marines, especially from story wise point of views. Only thing missing is massive butt plugs plunging down from the skies (or should that be High Azyr?) to deposit them)
Once I'm done with End Times, I might go through an overview of Age of Sigmar for those interested. You'd be well within your right to choose not to give it a chance, but I do think that it's in a good place right now, and it deserves some recognition despite the... struggles it went through.
For all of my opinions of it, I'd actually appreciate such a view. I've looked a bit at it recently, and I feel like there could be some useful kernels in there, if you cut away the infected fat.

Also, sorry if I come across as excessively vitriolic, as I'm writing this I realize that I'm still angry about how it all was done. (Which is also why I'm not commenting overly much so far, I'm uncertain how much reasonable I have to contribute)
 
Stormcast get a lot of books and models yes, but they're ironically not a great faction competetively so you don't see many people playing them, and they're actually hard to play and complex so despite marketing for beginners they're actually not noob friendly. "Too many Stormcast Eternals" is not an actual complaint that modern AoS players even have. In the beginning they released a lot of books for them as they got their bearing, but there are currently 23 factions (Gloomspite Gitz, Orruk Warclans, Ogor Mawtribes, Sons of Behemat, Nighthaunt, Soulblight Gravelords, Flesh Eater Courts, Ossiarch Bonereapers, Blades of Khorne, Disciples of Tzeentch, Hedonites of Slaanesh, Maggotkin of Nurgle, Beasts of Chaos, Slaves to Darkness, Skaven, Seraphon, Cities of Sigmar, Daughters of Khaine, Kharadron Overlords, Fyreslayers, Lumineth Realmlords, Sylvaneth and Idoneth Deepkin) that aren't Stormcast Eternals.

The most overwhelming thing about Age of Sigmar coming into it in 2022? There is so much.
 
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