Let's Read: Warhammer 40,000 Codexes and Star Wars RPG Sourcebooks (Dark Eldar Reviewer)

[RiverDelta]

I actually had some stuff in mind where the Xfftonian Lurker pointed out some of the contradications in Ashlee's perspectives and justifications for the Tyranids' whole thing, but by the time I got my shit together to where I could have done it, it would have felt like bullying since you were in the middle of RPing her, well, conversion.

The ideas themselves might be of some value, but at this point I'd want to treat most of them as something like AU content because there'd be no fun for me in RPing any of it directly.

...

I think part of the problem you smacked into with Ashlee is that... Well. Ynathe's most obnoxious character traits are something she can shut up about and just stop being with the clear implication that Vandire and Vior exert some degree of moral force over her. Vior and Vandire are both, in their ways, proselytizers, but Vandire can shut up about the benevolence of the God-Emperor around people who really don't want to hear it (like SolarFlare's psyker character), and Vior isn't an ass about her own Tau proselytizing either; it's just not obnoxious.

Ashlee, at least prior to her 'conversion RP' that is now in process, was a character who meets the Churchill definition of a fanatic: "A fanatic is someone who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." Ashlee is/was a character who just will not shut up about her social Darwinism, and who respond(ed) to challenges by doubling down on it to the point of being really obnoxious. That made her unwelcome to readers in a way another character might not have been.

OK, I just have to wonder what Antimony is, like, faction of origin, role, et cetera. Rogue trader, maybe?

[Reads on, has this confirmed. Hopes to learn how xe(?) managed to get an ork to learn table manners. That is legitimately impressive.]

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OOC: Antimony (xe/xyr) is a Rogue Trader, and a pretty prosperous one. I also agree with you on Ashlee, and I think to some degree as I wrote her I realized that she was ultimately kind of a mentally deficient person in some way. She's got an obvious psychological disorder, and it's mentally crippled her. She's a bit like Jackie from American Intoxicants, in that she's someone who has a stereotypically "evil" psych issue or two, but for whom I've tried to treat it as a psychological problem.

Like she's talked about, she leads a pretty lonely life, and her social Darwinism was kind of just the natural worldview of someone who is physically unable to recognize the humanity of others. It was that or Libertarianism.

I'd like to hope Ashlee's self-reflection and attempts to do better even though she doesn't have that empathy or respect for others have given her enough depth to make her less intolerable, and I introduced Antimony with an eye for a palate cleanser after Ashlee.

 

[Simon_Jester]

I'd like to hope Ashlee's self-reflection and attempts to do better even though she doesn't have that empathy or respect for others have given her enough depth to make her less intolerable, and I introduced Antimony with an eye for a palate cleanser after Ashlee.

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It's not even about "tolerable/intolerable." I think part of the problem is that the same thing that makes the character effective as a mouthpiece for the Tyranids kind of don't play well with the "intimately close lesbian quasi-polycule even if they're not all actually sleeping together" dynamics that sort of form the core of your own IC content.

Because it's kind of impractical to have an emotionally fulfilling romantic relationship with a Tyranid. Not even as a body/kinkshaming thing, to be clear; they're just kind of institutionally aromantic. Because when you internalize that all other life is on some level ultimately either food or competition for Your Side, and when you've detached the reproductive and romantic impulses that hard, you're just not gonna be that great a girlfriend/boyfriend/enbyfriend for, well... anyone who's actually a person and not on some level a knowing agent of a giant hostile terraforming engine.

It's kind of like, I dunno, far right radicalization; the very nature of being an individual who adopts that ideology means that you're just not going to be in a good headspace to do right by other people.

...

Ashlee would work fine as a standalone IC reviewer, it's just that when she's being RPed in constant close proximity to people who are like borderline treating her as a girlfriend, her toxic relationship with those specific people overshadows everything else. Ashlee's inherently nasty relationship with the other IC characters in that little polycule (I have no idea if I'm joking) ends up taking over the conversation and it turns into their personal soap opera story, and a nasty one that makes Ashlee unlikeable.

A big part of it, of course, is that as a character who's intentionally a foil to Vandire and Ylor, and who seems to be in the group mainly because of Ynathe (who she has a more... functional... relationship with), her interations with Vandire and Ylor seem to rapidly catch fire and explode. Since all three of them are, in various ways, proselytizing fanatics. Ylor and Vandire would have the same problem with each other, except that Vandire's learned to keep her xenophobia in check pretty well and Ylor's too much of a cinnamon bun to start shit.

Antimony's different because xe(?) explicitly isn't an antagonistic foil.

Of course, a related possibility is that the whole review thread sort of collapses into "The Antimony Flirts With Everyone In Outrageous-Magnificent Decadence Show," but at least then it goes out with a bang!

 

[RiverDelta]

It's not even about "tolerable/intolerable." I think part of the problem is that the same thing that makes the character effective as a mouthpiece for the Tyranids kind of don't play well with the "intimately close lesbian quasi-polycule even if they're not all actually sleeping together" dynamics that sort of form the core of your own IC content.

Because it's kind of impractical to have an emotionally fulfilling romantic relationship with a Tyranid. Not even as a body/kinkshaming thing, to be clear; they're just kind of institutionally aromantic. Because when you internalize that all other life is on some level ultimately either food or competition for Your Side, and when you've detached the reproductive and romantic impulses that hard, you're just not gonna be that great a girlfriend/boyfriend/enbyfriend for, well... anyone who's actually a person and not on some level a knowing agent of a giant hostile terraforming engine.

It's kind of like, I dunno, far right radicalization; the very nature of being an individual who adopts that ideology means that you're just not going to be in a good headspace to do right by other people.

...

Ashlee would work fine as a standalone IC reviewer, it's just that when she's being RPed in constant close proximity to people who are like borderline treating her as a girlfriend, her toxic relationship with those specific people overshadows everything else. Ashlee's inherently nasty relationship with the other IC characters in that little polycule (I have no idea if I'm joking) ends up taking over the conversation and it turns into their personal soap opera story, and a nasty one that makes Ashlee unlikeable.

A big part of it, of course, is that as a character who's intentionally a foil to Vandire and Ylor, and who seems to be in the group mainly because of Ynathe (who she has a more... functional... relationship with), her interations with Vandire and Ylor seem to rapidly catch fire and explode. Since all three of them are, in various ways, proselytizing fanatics. Ylor and Vandire would have the same problem with each other, except that Vandire's learned to keep her xenophobia in check pretty well and Ylor's too much of a cinnamon bun to start shit.

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OOC: That's fair, and that's why I chose to give her that character development so I could use her down the line if I wanted to without her coming off like that kind of abusive quasi-fascistic girlfriend person. Ultimately, Ashlee Viola lives an incomplete life, I think? But yeah, I broadly agree with you on all of this. Ashlee is also one of my typical archetypes, the "Unrepentant Asshole" (which can manifest really well, like in "The Tragedy of Jackie Stanton", or sort of poorly, like in "Die, Kaz Harrington, Die!"). And this isn't really a story where most characters are unrepentant assholes?

So Ashlee being a clinically heartless admirer of feral violence kind of contrasts with the genuinely-heroic Sister of Battle, the SSC Dark Eldar, and the cinnamon roll Tau? So, like, I can absolutely see how she became That Bitch. She's toxic in a way none of them are.

 

[Simon_Jester]

So Ashlee being a clinically heartless admirer of feral violence kind of contrasts with the genuinely-heroic Sister of Battle, the SSC Dark Eldar, and the cinnamon roll Tau? So, like, I can absolutely see how she became That Bitch. She's toxic in a way none of them are.

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I mean.

Unrepentant Ashlee works great as a guest reviewer. It's just that if you lock her in a room and a (not necessarily sexual or romantic) relationship with Vandire and Ylor, there's going to be trouble.

And you kind of run your reviews as "all 2/3/4/5 of my characters are locked in a room together." You're RPing their internal interactions as much or more than you are the actual codex review.

 

[RiverDelta]

I mean.

She'd work great as a guest reviewer. It's just that if you lock her in a room and a (not necessarily sexual or romantic) relationship with Vandire and Ylor, there's going to be trouble.

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OOC: I guess, but I think if I was going to use her again I'd want her to be able to actually interact with the rest of the cast beyond being Survivalist Bray Wyatt?

 

[Simon_Jester]

OOC: I guess, but I think if I was going to use her again I'd want her to be able to actually interact with the rest of the cast beyond being Survivalist Bray Wyatt?

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Oh yes, that absolutely makes sense.

Precisely because the basic idiom of your series here is that it's as much or more about the soap opera dynamics among the cast as it is about the reviews. This is not a criticism, it's just a description.

 

[RiverDelta]

Oh yes, that absolutely makes sense.

Precisely because the basic idiom of your series here is that it's as much or more about the soap opera dynamics among the cast as it is about the reviews. This is not a criticism, it's just a description.

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OOC: Yeah, that was a deliberate choice. I've kind of noticed that the three review threads have very different tones and focuses. You have the Carrera's Legions review, which seems to be about a dispassionate, academic reading of an in-universe propaganda work from the point of view of an emotionally stable Sith Lord (if there is such a thing). So, that feels like a professor reading a primary source and trying to understand it.

Then, there's the World War Z review, which is much more passionate and hostile to the text. That is the story of a bitter survivor, someone who was wronged greatly by a vile right-wing dictatorship and who wants to set the record straight with fire and force. It's a hatefic, but hatefics aren't necessarily bad, and that angry and informal reader is necessary to explore the questionable implications of a work rife with post-9/11 brainbugs.

So you have two works that are both widely agreed to be bad or lacking in some way. Carrera's Legions is essentially written by a neofascist, and World War Z is passably written but with a strong bias for oorah American militarism and neoliberal complacency.

I started writing this fic inspired by the WWZ review, which is why the Imperium doesn't get a fair shake in the earliest content. The difference is that everyone basically already knows that Warhammer is a weirdly fascistic mess that started out as an antifascist work of satire. "Oh, the Imperium's bad all along but everyone else is awesome" like in WWZ!Review is just boring and dull, and "What does this Codex mean in a historical sense" just kind of didn't interest me?

So, my thought was "If Warhammer is a setting where everyone kind of sucks, what if everyone is in some way redeemable or decent to some degree?", which lead to the character focus so we could see all of the different ways those factions were kind of OK.

TL;DR: Warhammer doesn't necessarily work as a big revelatory uncovering of propaganda and lies, nor does it work as an unstylized academic-style project. It's also, IMO, better than Carrera's Legions or World War Z. So you have to treat it differently, especially when people don't universally think it kind of sucks.

 

[Carcer]

OOC: Yeah, that was a deliberate choice. I've kind of noticed that the three review threads have very different tones and focuses. You have the Carrera's Legions review, which seems to be about a dispassionate, academic reading of an in-universe propaganda work from the point of view of an emotionally stable Sith Lord (if there is such a thing). So, that feels like a professor reading a primary source and trying to understand it.

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OOC:it seem interesting is it good?,can i get a link please ?

 

[Balmung1]

OOC: I loved this chapter and I think it's the best so far,especially Antimony who's hilarious.Just so you know IC!me/Alexios is gonna hate Antimony due to the fact that basically every part of Antimony's personality/ideals is slamming down on a lot of cultural norms and values Alexios has(for example things like blatant ostentation is seen as something to be associated with outsiders,Antimony's belief of surviving past the Imperium VS the Alexios/Artisian Serf's belief that whatever arises out of the end of the Imperium will be a monster that will haunt the galaxy until everyone is dead just for a few examples)

Oh, yes, we're currently about to talk about the Leagues of Votann, an under-explored part of the Milky Way! I am so thankful to have such a noble and well-traveled companion on this literary journey!

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IC:NO!.Ynathe if you value your sanity,sense of aesthetic and your ability to emphasize with others, son't trust that fucking Rogue Trader.They were the Emperor's pet psychopaths and narcissists when they could at least be restrained during the Great Crusade a but that was then an now the Galaxy is cursed to suffer the fate of these roving bands of unfashionable hedonist murderhoboes called Rogue Traders.

(Sister Vandire: I don't know whether I want to fuck you or slap you.)

(Antimony: Why not both?)

(Sister Vandire: I like both.)

No, Antimony, please don't steal my future girlfriend!

(Sister Vandire: Your what?)

...Oh, erm, that slipped out.

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IC: As someone whose upbringing can only be described as aggressively secular with grudging concessions towards the Imperial Cult I am loathe to admit that you all need some religion in your life.That or a relationship counselor.Possibly both.

(Antimony: Oh, dear, that was not my intent. Let me buy you a star yacht.)

Thank you very much for the offer, but I don't need a star yacht, and it is a bit much...

(Antimony: It really is trifling, barely an apology for my accidental lewdness. I should be at least considering getting you a megayacht.)

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IC:What.Just what.Also wouldn't it be unironic to give Ynathe a Megayacht designed for hedonism,passion and lewdness after apologizing because of said lewdness.

The Aeldari are certainly not dwindling.

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IC:I mean Biel-Tan seems tow ant to cause every single Aeldari to die gloriously against the savage barbarians like the humans,orks,chaos, anything that isn't themselves Etc.Best case scenario for them they just get turned into a second Magc'Sithraal and everyone uses them as scary story on hy not to fuck around with others.

(Sister Vandire: If you ever wanted proof that the Kin are trying to make the same mistakes as Dark Age Humanity, there it is. They've made Men of Iron.)

(Antimony: Besides, abuse of Ironkin is a problem.)

(Sister Vandire: ...Well, when the Ironkin rise up and try to exterminate organic life, don't say I didn't warn you.)

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ICuring the Unification Wars and early great Crusade(especially when the mechanicum had to be brought to heel against the emperor) it was less 'The Men of Iron are rising up and exterminating us!' and more 'Oh no the Men of Iron our ruler uses to kill people is actually trying to kill him now'.In my workings wuth some of the Left Hand I have had to work on what you could call Men of Iron though they only acted as advisors and system coordinators to the asset manager similar to the Moderati in Titans.They usually talk as a group, for example one group os called the Witch King after what the locals of a planet many millenia ago callled them and another group calls itself Craftworld/Corsair-Breaker after it's first taste of combat.They are actually very cordial with me if a bit melancholy and atypical in thought process.

OOC:It's stated in the stuff about the Ordo Sinister that they have secondary intelligence's that are described to be sentient in nature that are used to assist the pilot, which is of course extremely heretical but the Emperor made all of them so all's well.

That seems a bit harsh. I never understood the Imperium's obsession with strict technological control.

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IC:Mainly it's PR.A lot of civilizations associated the use of Men of Iron with large scale security/state apparatuses designed for terror and/or war.That and the fact that the Mechanicum is not to be trusted in anything concerning Men of Iron.

(Antimony: Oh, no! Just a merchant! I don't plan to betray anything! I'll serve the Imperium loyally until there isn't an Imperium, and then my true legend will be forged!)

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IC:There will be no legends after the dust is settled.Only the screams of the innocent and the sounds of monsters on the prowl. All will suffer and all will die to create a galaxy without innocence or hope ,such is the punishment of our folly and failures.

 

[Simon_Jester]

@Balmung1 , I think I should point out that as Viola illustrated, there are sharp limits to how much good and fun can be had out of stark, fierce IC conflicts. "Character A hates Character Z and thinks Z is terrible" just doesn't offer very much depth, while at the same time leaving whoever plays Character Z feeling like they need to respond. Likewise, "Character A has some brilliant idea for solving Character B's problem that would just coincidentally totally rearrange Character B's whole situation" is not something that works well in the context of an RP.

To quote Rich Burlew, author of the well-regarded RPG-themed webcomic The Order of the Stick:

Decide to React Differently: Have you ever had a party break down into fighting over the actions of one of their members? Has a character ever threatened repeatedly to leave the party? Often, intraparty fighting boils down to one player declaring, "That's how my character would react." Heck, often you'll be the one saying it; it's a common reaction when alignments or codes of ethics clash.

However, it also creates a logjam where neither side wants to back down. The key to resolving this problem is to decide to react differently. You are not your character, and your character is not a separate entity with reactions that you cannot control. I can't tell you how many times I've heard a player state that their character's actions are not under their control. Every decision your character makes is your decision first. It is possible and even preferable for you to craft a personality that is consistent but also accommodating of the characters the other players wish to play.

When you think about a situation, ask yourself, "Is this the only way my character can react to this?" Chances are, the answer is, "No." Try to refine your character so that you can deal with situations that conflict with your alignment/ethos without resorting to ultimatums, threats, etc. This will often mean thinking in terms of compromise and concession to your fellow players, or at the very least an agreement to disagree.

Here's another example: In a campaign I DM'd, the party's bard lifted a magical sword behind the back of the party's Lawful Good monk. The monk had basically decided that the bodies of several fallen knights would be buried without looting, and rather than argue, the bard just grabbed the sword. The bad news was, the sword was cursed; it was the blade that had belonged to a ghost that roamed the castle, and whenever the bard drew it, the ghost materialized and attacked him (and only him). Eventually, the bard 'fessed up that he had stolen the sword.

The monk (and the monk's player) became furious, and declared that he could no longer travel with the bard. Either the bard had to leave, or he would. It became a huge argument between characters and players, and it was entirely unnecessary. The monk did not have to react with an ultimatum; the monk did not even have to be angry, no matter what his alignment was. The bard had already suffered the misfortune of having his Charisma drained by the ghost repeatedly; the monk could have chosen (for example) to lecture the bard on how his theft had brought him nothing but misery. He chose to create player conflict when it was just as easy to not.

...

...Separate your character's thoughts from your own thoughts, but don't forget who is in control of both personalities. The division between your personality and that of your character only goes so far as it helps the game; once it begins becoming a disruption, a player has a responsibility to alter his or her character's decisions in the interest of the group. In the end, your relationships with the people you are sitting in someone's living room with are more important than your character's internal consistency.

---

This philosophy is often helpful in roleplaying contexts. I may be overreaching here, but...

First with the offer of recruitment extended to the Chaos-aligned psyker, and then again with the declaration of eternal hostility to the rogue trader, I observe you creating a sort of conflict within the context of the RP, where you go to great lengths to set up situations that will influence how other people play their characters, or commit yourself to a course of permanent argument.

I think you might find it easier to play with the rest and not get rebuffed if you try to, well, mellow your approach a bit. Characters who strongly disagree with one another can be modified to ask each other questions or advance reasonable criticisms, rather than hotheadedly warning third parties "don't talk to so and so." Characters shouldn't be seriously altering the setting itself in an attempt to "fix fic" the problems another character lives with. And so on.

 

[RiverDelta]

OOC:it seem interesting is it good?,can i get a link please ?

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OOC: Here you go: Let's Read: A Sith reads A Pillar of Fire by Night by Tom Kratman; What in the Nine Corellian hells....

IC:NO!.Ynathe if you value your sanity,sense of aesthetic and your ability to emphasize with others, son't trust that fucking Rogue Trader.They were the Emperor's pet psychopaths and narcissists when they could at least be restrained during the Great Crusade a but that was then an now the Galaxy is cursed to suffer the fate of these roving bands of unfashionable hedonist murderhoboes called Rogue Traders.

IC: As someone whose upbringing can only be described as aggressively secular with grudging concessions towards the Imperial Cult I am loathe to admit that you all need some religion in your life.That or a relationship counselor.Possibly both.

IC:What.Just what.Also wouldn't it be unironic to give Ynathe a Megayacht designed for hedonism,passion and lewdness after apologizing because of said lewdness.

IC:There will be no legends after the dust is settled.Only the screams of the innocent and the sounds of monsters on the prowl. All will suffer and all will die to create a galaxy without innocence or hope ,such is the punishment of our folly and failures.

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(Antimony: Oh, how dreadfully boring you sound. Have some fun! Learn a craft! Build a moon-sized space station! Do pottery! Sculpt! Duel a Necron over an active volcano! Surely you have better things to do than preach? But, oh, I kid. It's a pleasure to meet you! The Right Vainglorious Mx. Antimony Aphrodite-Thor Dangereux! The most interesting person you'll ever meet. Charmed!)

 

[Simon_Jester]

OOC:

"I don't always drink beer, but when I do, I prefer... two horses? What's this?"

[Antimony squints at beer bottle, snaps out of it]

 

[RiverDelta]

OOC:

"I don't always drink beer, but when I do, I prefer... two horses? What's this?"

[Antimony squints at beer bottle, snaps out of it]

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OOC: Now I'm tempted to say that Antimony's done celebrity sponsorships for beer. Maybe that's one of the reasons xe knows the Kin.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Nobody could afford xir prices for a celebrity sponsorship, so presumably xe's doing it on impulse or because xe actually likes the beer.

 

[RiverDelta]

Nobody could afford xir prices for a celebrity sponsorship, so presumably xe's doing it on impulse or because xe actually likes the beer.

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OOC: I can already imagine xyr ad: "I'm Antimony Aphrodite-Thor Dangereux, and this is my favorite beer on Holy Terra."

 

[hellgodsrus]

OOC: So I got asked by RiverDelta if I could do the Astartes aligned codices; obviously I can't really do this as my craftworld aeldari a) because perspective and b) because she hates Astartes and it wouldn't be interesting to just have her ranting. So after some discussion, I've come up with a character I'll be using - posts from this character will have the following header to start them off so there's no confusion.

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Racilia
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Got a message and a terminal the other day from Sister Felicity; the gladiatrix apparently doesn't feel like she's up to reviewing codices about the Astartes, which - fair enough, there's a reasonable amount of nonsense and nonsense accessories in them, but they're the kind of thing you only tend to spot if you know the stuff. So Vandire thought of me and got in touch. Getting a computer set up out here was kind of hell, but I managed it, and so here I am.

I'm a former Brother Sergeant of an Astartes chapter I won't name, served as a Devastator - a proper one - three centuries. I retired in a bit of a cloud due to my decision to change my gender, which made the last twenty five years of service kind of awkward, and so now I live on my little farm in the middle of fucking nowhere and don't bother anyone. You can call me Racilia - it isn't my name, but it works well enough.

Since understanding the Astartes - what they actually are, and where the rules of this wargame and what it says veers into those weird assumptions people have about us - requires a base level of understanding, I'll start with the Codex: Space Marines (in the next couple of days, I need to shear my groxes first) and move onto chapter specific stuff, as well as covering the Astartes who don't serve the Imperium at some point.

Oh I need to click here to post this, okay -

 

[InquisitionAI]

OoC:

Characters who strongly disagree with one another can be modified to ask each other questions or advance reasonable criticisms

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This is one of the things that I had to be conscious about with my ImpGuard character, he's the Fighting Arm of the Worse Government in Human History, but he's also got a healthy respect for everyone, (Aside from Tyranids, who trigger all sorts of *issues*,) and he's small enough scale that, like, he could reasonably encounter most of what's being talked about without being so large that he overtakes the actual story.

IC:

The Votann, of course, are relics from the Age of High Technology, ones that used to be far more capable and efficient than they are now. Even in their vastly reduced state, they are mighty computers.

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The Leagues are... well, they're Different. I've read the tomes of the old Squats, both from before we lost contact, and from the handful of survivors, and as far as I can tell, they're kinda just... specific parts of Squat Culture writ-large. The Miners behave as you would expect the Miners to do, and the Builders as Builders, but there's just... something missing.

Like, the books talk about how the average Squat would get at least a basic understanding in a whole host of fields. How each Squat was expected to at minimum, take care of themselves as much as possible.

Seeing what the Leagues have become, after all this time... really makes you wonder if some technologies were destroyed for a reason.

They remind me most of Kriegers, and I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not yet.

OoC:
Honestly, I became a 40k fan long after the Squats were written out, but I went through the effort to learn about them, and theycwere one of my favorite non-canon factions, simply because they were *soo different* from everything else. They were *fun*. And when the Leagues were announced, I was actually excited to see what GW would do with them, only to get CAPITALISM!IN SSSPPPAAACCCEEE, and a set of rules designed to be dominant, instead of being designed to be *fun*, it's just *sad*.

The Leagues are basically *evil Tau* and that's just... boring, to be blunt.

 

[RiverDelta]

OoC:

This is one of the things that I had to be conscious about with my ImpGuard character, he's the Fighting Arm of the Worse Government in Human History, but he's also got a healthy respect for everyone, (Aside from Tyranids, who trigger all sorts of *issues*,) and he's small enough scale that, like, he could reasonably encounter most of what's being talked about without being so large that he overtakes the actual story.

IC:

The Leagues are... well, they're Different. I've read the tomes of the old Squats, both from before we lost contact, and from the handful of survivors, and as far as I can tell, they're kinda just... specific parts of Squat Culture writ-large. The Miners behave as you would expect the Miners to do, and the Builders as Builders, but there's just... something missing.

Like, the books talk about how the average Squat would get at least a basic understanding in a whole host of fields. How each Squat was expected to at minimum, take care of themselves as much as possible.

Seeing what the Leagues have become, after all this time... really makes you wonder if some technologies were destroyed for a reason.

They remind me most of Kriegers, and I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not yet.

OoC:
Honestly, I became a 40k fan long after the Squats were written out, but I went through the effort to learn about them, and theycwere one of my favorite non-canon factions, simply because they were *soo different* from everything else. They were *fun*. And when the Leagues were announced, I was actually excited to see what GW would do with them, only to get CAPITALISM!IN SSSPPPAAACCCEEE, and a set of rules designed to be dominant, instead of being designed to be *fun*, it's just *sad*.

The Leagues are basically *evil Tau* and that's just... boring, to be blunt.

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IC:

(Sister Vandire: Well, and Ynathe and Antimony would disagree, my take is that the Leagues are essentially fascists. They're ultranationalist, condescending, dismissive assholes who are obsessed with national rebirth narratives and fascistic ancestor-worship. I think they're planet-looting scum unworthy of sympathy or kindness, messing with powers far beyond their control like true AI without understanding the risks, and I cannot express enough how much I hate, hate, hate those vile, insulting fucking Squats.)

Well, to be fair, the Kin Codex is written by a fascist-leaning Kin with a clear intent to distort her more complex people in the eyes of the Imperium, so I don't know if you're giving the Kin the benefit of the doubt...

(Sister Vandire: The Kin are the crappy, post-apocalyptic version of the Squats after millennia of degradation. That's it.)

Let's try to be nice and not paint with a broad brush.

OOC: I honestly don't know much about the Squats, so me liking the Leagues is probably due to that. I might have to look into them, but I found their whole situation to be interesting and fun. I feel like a remnant of the Dark Age of Technology is a cool idea. That said, I don't know much about the rules, so I could see how "high-tech assholes" could be fun in fluff (even if it's more boring than the original Squats) but a pain in the ass on the tabletop.

 

[InquisitionAI]

OOC:

That said, I don't know much about the rules,

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They are Banned in almost all Competitive circles for a *good reason*, GW made them to *win* not to be *fun* or *interesting*.

You went from Leviathan Trains, Super Guns, and Biker Gangs to... Generic Fucking Hyper-capitalist Scifi Bullshit.

IC:

Let's try to be nice and not paint with a broad brush.

Click to shrink...

Not all Votann and Kin are Fascist, but the Nurture of their system ensures that the vast majority are.

I have been blessed to not have to deal with these... Inferior Copies of a Greater Race. And I am not ashamed to say as much.

 

[RiverDelta]

OOC:

They are Banned in almost all Competitive circles for a *good reason*, GW made them to *win* not to be *fun* or *interesting*.

You went from Leviathan Trains, Super Guns, and Biker Gangs to... Generic Fucking Hyper-capitalist Scifi Bullshit.

IC:

Not all Votann and Kin are Fascist, but the Nurture of their system ensures that the vast majority are.

I have been blessed to not have to deal with these... Inferior Copies of a Greater Race. And I am not ashamed to say as much.

Click to shrink...

OOC: Why did GW make them so purposefully overpowered? Was it just to shill new models?

IC: Oh? What makes you say that? It's a...broad accusation, isn't it, to say most of them and the system they live in are fascist?

(Sister Vandire: Their slogan of "The Ancestors are always watching" doesn't sound fascist to you?)

Well, surely we're just unintentionally misinterpreting things?

(Sister Vandire: They treat war not as a sad necessity but as a joyous and proud way to make money and fight for their heritage.)

Well, that seems like a less-than-good-faith description of it.

(Sister Vandire: Blessed moons, do you just assume the benefit of the doubt for every Xenos race?)

...I try to?

(Sister Vandire: Ynathe, please, listen to me. I know the Leagues sound like reasonable, moderate people, but beneath their old-timey attitudes and tolerance of true AI is a hateful monster that would doom the entire galaxy to grey goo before letting their blood dwindle or their profits drop an inch.)

...But we do know that the Codex is biased to make us think they are fascists. I'm sure they're nice if we'll get to know them and read between the lines. I'd imagine Antimony will help us understand the less fascistic parts of their society as well.

 

[Simon_Jester]

(Sister Vandire: Their slogan of "The Ancestors are always watching" doesn't sound fascist to you?)

Click to shrink...

IC:

[looks up 'fascist' as best as possible.]

Are you able to imagine a state of mind in which the phrase "the God-Emperor is always watching" would not sound fascist to you? Any context in which it sounds reassuring, benevolent, or even potentially problematic but not in a specifically fascist way?

If so, then so may the Votann.

(Sister Vandire: They treat war not as a sad necessity but as a joyous and proud way to make money and fight for their heritage.)

Click to shrink...

IC:

Do you consider orks to be fascist?

 

[RiverDelta]

IC:

[looks up 'fascist' as best as possible.]

Are you able to imagine a state of mind in which the phrase "the God-Emperor is always watching" would not sound fascist to you? Any context in which it sounds reassuring, benevolent, or even potentially problematic but not in a specifically fascist way?

If so, then so may the Votann.

IC:

Do you consider orks to be fascist?

Click to shrink...

(Sister Vandire: The context is different. The God-Emperor is our god, because we live in a theocracy. The Ancestors are their revered people. They worship themselves and worship the past rather than the present one true God. It's totally different. Also, no, the Orks are too stupid to understand political ideologies.)

 

[InquisitionAI]

OoC:

Why did GW make them so purposefully overpowered? Was it just to shill new models?

Click to shrink...

As far as anyone can tell? Yes. To the point that they are actually outperforming the Space Marines in their intended role.

So GW is undermining their Flagship Line to shill the new Models.

So, Poor Transition into a Big Ass Rant:

I grew up Alt-Right. My life was strictly controlled and determined by my parents in order to ensure that I would carry on their views, (And, for brevity, and not trauma-dumping on people, I will leave it at that,) so this Codex is... well, hitting a lot of things that I have *issues* with, the first Blurb is blatant Mythos-crafting, trying to act as if they have some 'Divine' or 'Inherent' superiority over other people, the following blurbs are attempts to downplay or hide the 'undesirable' parts of their history, the Blatant Military Fetishizing is... well, Blatant Military Fetishizing, (and we all know how what groups tend to do that,) they attempt to act as if they are one Mythologic Block, of Unwavering Purpose and Divine Dedication.

> For thousands of years the Leagues of Votann have exploited the riches of the galactic core and overcome the perils of that tomultuous region.

Are we just going to conveniently ignore that the Tyranids scoured that entire area of all life because GW couldn't figure out how to make the Squats more 'Grimdark' and in line with the rest of the setting? That decades of Lore and Storytelling had the Squats as Non-Persons because they were *canonically declared exterminated* by GW, until they announced the Leagues.

> Over the millennia they have battled many of the galaxy's races, and sometimes traded with or fought as mercenaries for others.

Oh, hey, they actually in-universe acknowledged that people kept using the Squats as Subs for other factions, because they had some of the coolest, most awesome models, even though they were out of circulation for *years*.

But, no, we're not going to acknowledge the History of the Setting, because to do so would be to acknowledge that the setting is actually quite silly.

But GW can't accept that their setting is anything other than super-serious military fantasy.

They refuse to actually take the setting serious while also demanding that everyone else has to.

IC:

I'd imagine Antimony will help us understand the less fascistic parts of their society as well.

Click to shrink...

I'm sure that there are individuals that are decent, moral, and just.

But unlike the Other Codexes, which were attempting to justify Imperial Aggression against other Races, this Codex was written to Glorify the Systems, to Hide the Faults, to Cover Up the Blatant Warmongering, to *Rewrite the extermination of their civilization* in order to justify their current actions.

Most Squats died Holding the Line against the Nids, or fell in Retribution Strikes, or simply integrated back into the Imperium Proper and then died of old age

These are the ones who Ran. Who left others behind to fight and die in their place, and then had the *balls* to act like they are somehow the Worthy Successors to the people they *abandoned*. Fuck, most of the Core is still Nid territory, as far as I'm aware, and I don't exactly see that changing anytime soon, given how much biomass and material the Nids managed to harvest from the area.

But, no, this Codex needs to act like the Leagues are continuous with the original Squat Holds, because to say otherwise is to admit that they are the shallow reflections of a dead people, and they cannot have that, because that would mean that there is nothing for them to fight to 'reclaim' or 'Maintain', and without their Wars, the Votann would have no reason to exist.

I respect the Elves, the Tau, and even the Orks. I hate the Nids. But the only group that I truly despise are the Leagues. Because out of all the races, all the peoples, and all societies, *they* are the ONLY ONES to try and act as if they have no skeletons in their closets, to act as if they simply appeared from the Aether, fully formed and ready to go forth into the Galaxy. It is worse than the Krakking Imperium, and that speaks *volumes*.

 

[RiverDelta]

OoC:

As far as anyone can tell? Yes. To the point that they are actually outperforming the Space Marines in their intended role.

So GW is undermining their Flagship Line to shill the new Models.

So, Poor Transition into a Big Ass Rant:

I grew up Alt-Right. My life was strictly controlled and determined by my parents in order to ensure that I would carry on their views, (And, for brevity, and not trauma-dumping on people, I will leave it at that,) so this Codex is... well, hitting a lot of things that I have *issues* with, the first Blurb is blatant Mythos-crafting, trying to act as if they have some 'Divine' or 'Inherent' superiority over other people, the following blurbs are attempts to downplay or hide the 'undesirable' parts of their history, the Blatant Military Fetishizing is... well, Blatant Military Fetishizing, (and we all know how what groups tend to do that,) they attempt to act as if they are one Mythologic Block, of Unwavering Purpose and Divine Dedication.

> For thousands of years the Leagues of Votann have exploited the riches of the galactic core and overcome the perils of that tomultuous region.

Are we just going to conveniently ignore that the Tyranids scoured that entire area of all life because GW couldn't figure out how to make the Squats more 'Grimdark' and in line with the rest of the setting? That decades of Lore and Storytelling had the Squats as Non-Persons because they were *canonically declared exterminated* by GW, until they announced the Leagues.

> Over the millennia they have battled many of the galaxy's races, and sometimes traded with or fought as mercenaries for others.

Oh, hey, they actually in-universe acknowledged that people kept using the Squats as Subs for other factions, because they had some of the coolest, most awesome models, even though they were out of circulation for *years*.

But, no, we're not going to acknowledge the History of the Setting, because to do so would be to acknowledge that the setting is actually quite silly.

But GW can't accept that their setting is anything other than super-serious military fantasy.

They refuse to actually take the setting serious while also demanding that everyone else has to.

IC:

I'm sure that there are individuals that are decent, moral, and just.

But unlike the Other Codexes, which were attempting to justify Imperial Aggression against other Races, this Codex was written to Glorify the Systems, to Hide the Faults, to Cover Up the Blatant Warmongering, to *Rewrite the extermination of their civilization* in order to justify their current actions.

Most Squats died Holding the Line against the Nids, or fell in Retribution Strikes, or simply integrated back into the Imperium Proper and then died of old age

These are the ones who Ran. Who left others behind to fight and die in their place, and then had the *balls* to act like they are somehow the Worthy Successors to the people they *abandoned*. Fuck, most of the Core is still Nid territory, as far as I'm aware, and I don't exactly see that changing anytime soon, given how much biomass and material the Nids managed to harvest from the area.

But, no, this Codex needs to act like the Leagues are continuous with the original Squat Holds, because to say otherwise is to admit that they are the shallow reflections of a dead people, and they cannot have that, because that would mean that there is nothing for them to fight to 'reclaim' or 'Maintain', and without their Wars, the Votann would have no reason to exist.

I respect the Elves, the Tau, and even the Orks. I hate the Nids. But the only group that I truly despise are the Leagues. Because out of all the races, all the peoples, and all societies, *they* are the ONLY ONES to try and act as if they have no skeletons in their closets, to act as if they simply appeared from the Aether, fully formed and ready to go forth into the Galaxy. It is worse than the Krakking Imperium, and that speaks *volumes*.

Click to shrink...

OOC: I'm very sorry to hear that you were raised that way, that seems like such a depressing and smallminded way to teach a child. The point of this whole AU is to focus on the good in each faction, but I don't know if I feel comfortable giving the Kin that kind of human touch when it seems like they're at best kind of questionable and generic capitalist Vikings and at worst coming off like the Asatru Folk Assembly in space. So, I think I've decided to try and focus on the dissidents, the exiles, the Kin who don't support a fundamentally unjust system and who are seeking to improve it. There are good Kin, a lot of good Kin, but they're good because they see injustice and fight it.

IC:

(Sister Vandire: My issue with the Kin is that they're not like the Nids. The Nids are animals, seeking to survive. They're not mindless, but they work on the idea of the law of the jungle. They're like Ashlee, you know? They were born without hearts. The thing that makes me hate the Leagues is that they did have the option to be better, that they do know what compassion and bravery feels like. They chose to be a planet-pillaging plague of pitiful puppets to processing power.

(A Tyranid will back off because you've shown you can fight back. A Tau will back off because you can surrender, show that you can respect their point of view while standing with yours. A Leaguer? No, they decided the universe was their birthright and that the world was their oyster.

(They're morally culpable. They aren't a natural disaster, they're a civlization of moral criminals.)

...Erm...Oh. I...I hope...I know there are good ones.

(Sister Vandire: There are, but you won't see them mentioned in this dubious fucking book.)

 

[InquisitionAI]

OoC:

There are good Kin, a lot of good Kin, but they're good because they see injustice and fight it.

Click to shrink...

That's probably for the best. Because... to be Blunt, most Factions have had time for Authors and Fans to... well, Humanize the factions, to introduce Nuance to them, but the Leagues are so new, that there simply hasn't been that time, and the Codex puts forth such a *fucked up* base that it's *geniunely hard* to see any nuance or humanity.

Even the Drukari have the thin veneer of their predatory hedonism being *necessary* for their survival as a society, and with Yenead, you can have them at least become something approximating a decent person.

As for the Exiles/Renegades, maybe pull a Reverse Biel Tan, and have some Votann just... not be massive assholes, but they're in the Minority as the Ancestor Cores are Relics of the Squats, and thus are behaving as if they were still part of that Empire? Write the Leagues as a Tragedy of what happens when a Society falls, leaving behind nothing but the remains of their Artifice.

For all that the Leagues have maintained their technology, they are now forevermore bound to it, because their society simply ceases to exist once it goes away.

But that's just my ramblings, I have full trust in you to do your best to make something out of them.