Let's Read: David Weber's Honor Harrington

I'm almost tempted to laugh at just how cartoonishly misogynistic these people are. It's almost at the point where Roosh V or Stefan Molyneux would tell them to dial it back a notch. There's just something charmingly quaint about using Christian fundamentalists as villains in the year 2020; remember that this novel came out in 1993, the same years the Waco Siege, and the Ruby Ridge Siege had occurred just a year prior. I have no doubt that, had this novel come out after 9/11, the Masadans would definitely have a more Islamic fundamentalist flavour (and on that note, I want to deliver a big FUCK YOU to Dan Simmons, for being an sci-fi author whose works I enjoyed, but then who turned out to be an Islamophobic prick).
I can think of real world groups about as misogynistic. And they aren't Christian as it happens; it's mentioned earlier in the novel as I recall that they reject Christ as the Messiah and ripped out the New Testament from their version of the Bible.

Judging from his other stories if this had been written post-911 Weber would have probably had them use the word "jihad", but that's about it. In fact, Weber seems to be an exception to the rule of right-leaning authors going nuts after 9-11; if anything he's mellowed out a bit over time. Not a whole lot, but some.
 
I view the Masadans as the logical endpoint of the trend among far-right fundamentalist Christian evangelical groups to become increasingly corrupt, heretical, and generally crazy. No surprise there that they're rejecting everything found in normal, well-adjusted Christian doctrine, up to and including Christ.
 
Yu asks him about the status of "Tractor Five" and Manning says it's going to take around 10 or 12 hours to get it fixed. Yu throws a bitch fit about how the Masadans are upset at taking more losses than they expected, and he rants about how people die in wars and how terrible it is that Masada is evidently not letting them press their advantage. We get a multi-paragraph infodump about how badly they screwed up the engagement with the Madrigal, likening it to "a mob armed with clubs charging a man with a pulser."

Yu is really invested in conquering Grayson, and he isn't even Masadan. I personally attribute it to sheer professionalism; he may not care about Grayson or Masada, but he does care about doing things right.

The Masadans are refusing to continue their assault on Grayson, and Yu thinks that they've got it into their heads that Manticore has provided Grayson with some kind of superweapon. Clearly they have no idea what a modern spacefaring combat vessel is capable of. It's at this point that we learn why Yu wanted the tractor beams repaired:

At this point Yu could conquer Grayson in the time it takes to travel to Grayson, plus thirty to forty minutes to destroy the planet's orbital defenses and blow Troubador out of space. I think it's perfectly realistic that Masada's rulers are this stupid, but WOW Masada's rulers are stupid.

Some of the LACs don't survive the process, of course, and doing so puts tremendous strain on their tractor beams, but at least this crazy scheme has gotten Simonds to agree to continue their campaign.

This is roughly equivalent to having a nuclear submarine haul tugboats across the Atlantic to use them to attack enemy shipping.

As opposed to, you know, using your nuclear submarine.

We then cut to Simonds himself, who's meeting with his brother, Chief Elder Thomas Simonds of the Faithful of the Church of Humanity Unchained (how much do you want to bet that he introduces himself via his full title every time he meets someone new?).

I don't take sucker bets.

Again we get mention of this mysterious "Maccabeus" (who is obviously named for Judas Maccabeus, who led a revolt against the Seleucid Empire). Yu doesn't know about this person or persons, so it seems that the Masadans are running their own scheme alongside Operation Jericho. Someone mentions that Maccabeus has indicated that there is still "too much popular support for the current regime" but that he is "prepared to move if public morale began to crack, and Jericho must have weakened it further," which suggests he's someone inside the Grayson government. The last few paragraphs confirm that whoever Maccabeus is, he's planning to secure control of Grayson, which is the first step in the Masadan's scheme to take them over.

Here's a plan.

Instead of hoping that "Maccabeus" can execute your brilliant plan, maybe you can have Captain Yu conquer Grayson. I mean, Maccabeus might have made sense if Yu had failed, but since he's wiped out all effective military resistance, you might as well just roll in and take over. You can shoot all the heretic leaders, place your buddy Maccabeus in charge if you want, and get started on converting the planet.

You know, just in case you weren't aware that the Masadans are eeeeevil.

I don't know. Maybe everyone in the room is a secret moderate who wants peace with Grayson, and they're deliberately trying to throw the fight to discredit the war party. That would explain a great deal about their "plans", though I suppose that pure unadultered idiocy could also work.
 
Yu is really invested in conquering Grayson, and he isn't even Masadan. I personally attribute it to sheer professionalism; he may not care about Grayson or Masada, but he does care about doing things right.
Also, remember that the entire point of this exercise from Haven's perspective is to get Masada to conquer Grayson, thus depriving Manticore an ally at this strategic location, and granting Haven one. If Masada doesn't conquer Grayson, Manticore will predictably reinforce Grayson until conquest becomes impossible, fucking everything up and making all the shit Yu's gone through dealing with the Masadans... well, basically all for nothing.

At this point Yu could conquer Grayson in the time it takes to travel to Grayson, plus thirty to forty minutes to destroy the planet's orbital defenses and blow Troubador out of space. I think it's perfectly realistic that Masada's rulers are this stupid, but WOW Masada's rulers are stupid.
I do appreciate Weber managing a semi-plausible example of extreme military stupidity here.

Masada's rulers are the generation traumatized by the defeat of their previous attempt to conquer the system. They're reacting to the casualties caused by their mishandling of a previous engagement as a reason to be afraid, and on some level I suspect they're convinced they need a political solution to the problem Grayson presents rather than a military one. Combine this with very little war experience NOT involving fighting Grayson, and the Masadans are well suited to start making horrible, horrible mistakes.
 
They've been in a shooting war on and off with Grayson for awhile.

They even sent STL attacks at each other... which takes dedication!
 
Also, remember that the entire point of this exercise from Haven's perspective is to get Masada to conquer Grayson, thus depriving Manticore an ally at this strategic location, and granting Haven one. If Masada doesn't conquer Grayson, Manticore will predictably reinforce Grayson until conquest becomes impossible, fucking everything up and making all the shit Yu's gone through dealing with the Masadans... well, basically all for nothing.

True! I had almost forgotten why Haven is doing this. Fortunately, Haven has sent more than enough firepower to deal with the Graysons and the Manticorans...

But not the Masadans.

I do appreciate Weber managing a semi-plausible example of extreme military stupidity here.

Masada's rulers are the generation traumatized by the defeat of their previous attempt to conquer the system. They're reacting to the casualties caused by their mishandling of a previous engagement as a reason to be afraid, and on some level I suspect they're convinced they need a political solution to the problem Grayson presents rather than a military one. Combine this with very little war experience NOT involving fighting Grayson, and the Masadans are well suited to start making horrible, horrible mistakes.

Honor of the Queen is peak Weber, before he gains Immunity from Editors and starts giving his heroes all the best toys.

You are right to remind us that Masada's rulers tried to failed to conquer Grayson directly. For all their talk of God's will, they're traumatized and scared, and so they've adopted a really overcomplicated plan that they think will spare them the dangers of a direct assault on Grayson.

It's actually a terrible plan, but it's a terrible plan that makes sense within a very flawed context shaped by crushing defeat and a total lack of perspective on the outside universe. To Masada, Grayson is a genuinely terrifying enemy, while the Havenites view conquering Grayson as the kind of task that they routinely accomplish before lunchtime.

There is no mistake too horrible for a character to make as long as that mistake is a natural result of the flaws in their mindset and belief system. While he screws up on other occasions (Solarian League), Weber genuinely puts work into creating Masadan characters with a consistent worldview that shapes their thinking, and I appreciate that.

Yu doesn't, though. He just wants to go full conquistador on some neo-barbs, and his Masadan "allies" won't let him do what he dooes best.
 
They also only within living memory [barely] regained grav-compensator technology.

They were tooling around with impeller powered ships, with FTL... without grav compensators. Maybe with limited grav-plate compensation, but possibly even without those.
 
At this point Yu could conquer Grayson in the time it takes to travel to Grayson, plus thirty to forty minutes to destroy the planet's orbital defenses and blow Troubador out of space. I think it's perfectly realistic that Masada's rulers are this stupid, but WOW Masada's rulers are stupid.

Here's a plan.

Instead of hoping that "Maccabeus" can execute your brilliant plan, maybe you can have Captain Yu conquer Grayson. I mean, Maccabeus might have made sense if Yu had failed, but since he's wiped out all effective military resistance, you might as well just roll in and take over. You can shoot all the heretic leaders, place your buddy Maccabeus in charge if you want, and get started on converting the planet.
There is a logic here. For the first they really do not fully appreciate the power of modern systems combined with generational trauma from previous conflicts with grayson (where basically there entire Masadan officer corp was gutted, either when their ships died or those that came home were killed for failure).

Also doctrinally they believe at same level that if the corrupt can be removed the rest of Grayson will become Faithful and more so Maccebaus is a sign of Faithful presence (and for that matter has likely been feeding them inflated reports of Faithful support on Grayson).

Plus wars of conquest cause damage, a successful coup will leave facilities far more intact which means they get more wealth and industry out of it.

Is it the best plan? No, but it is the sort of plan that some real life leaders would try. The LAC thing was more of a delay mechanism by the Masadans then a real need for them to be in system. They want Maccebaus to go to avoid being too indebt to Haven.
 
Yu is really invested in conquering Grayson, and he isn't even Masadan. I personally attribute it to sheer professionalism; he may not care about Grayson or Masada, but he does care about doing things right.
Also, the sooner his mission is finished, the sooner he can get the hell away from those lunatics on Masada. Or shoot them all and plant Haven's flag, I'm sure he'd be pleased with either option.
 
I can think of real world groups about as misogynistic. And they aren't Christian as it happens; it's mentioned earlier in the novel as I recall that they reject Christ as the Messiah and ripped out the New Testament from their version of the Bible.

Judging from his other stories if this had been written post-911 Weber would have probably had them use the word "jihad", but that's about it. In fact, Weber seems to be an exception to the rule of right-leaning authors going nuts after 9-11; if anything he's mellowed out a bit over time. Not a whole lot, but some.
Hell I doubt he'd even go that far, considering it would make absolutely no sense with the world building he made up for Grayson as basically Early Mormons in Space with added Luddism and how these guys split from them. Maybe a off handed mention of 'history of Religous fanatics and their wars" but that's about it.
 
I do appreciate Weber managing a semi-plausible example of extreme military stupidity here.

Masada's rulers are the generation traumatized by the defeat of their previous attempt to conquer the system. They're reacting to the casualties caused by their mishandling of a previous engagement as a reason to be afraid, and on some level I suspect they're convinced they need a political solution to the problem Grayson presents rather than a military one. Combine this with very little war experience NOT involving fighting Grayson, and the Masadans are well suited to start making horrible, horrible mistakes.

As I recall, Yu notes quite specifically that Masada's last try at taking Grayson was the kind of complete and utter catastrophe that even much better militaries would have a very hard time recovering from in morale/psychological terms, even before we get into the supremely deleterious effects of just how the Masadan government reacted to that defeat (which was very much not conducive to that recovery).
 
Honor of the Queen is peak Weber, before he gains Immunity from Editors and starts giving his heroes all the best toys.
Weber seems to have a thing for David wining against Goliath stories, and to level the playing field he gives David higher tech toys.

He does get editors, but I'm guessing their not very good ones, because as an established writer it's viewed that he doesn't need a good one.
 
Well, you can give your David better toys up to a point... that point being the point at which David's superior armor and weaponry make him a good bet against Goliath and it stops being a "David versus Goliath" story in the first place.
 
Well, you can give your David better toys up to a point... that point being the point at which David's superior armor and weaponry make him a good bet against Goliath and it stops being a "David versus Goliath" story in the first place.
"Dennis Moore Dennis Moore riding through the night!
Dennis Moore Dennis Moore trying to do right!
He steals from the Poor and he gives to the Rich!
Stupid Bitch!"


(Old Month Python sketch. Dashing folk hero type robs from the rich and gives to the poor, but it's always the same originally rich people he robs to give to the same eventually no longer poor people)
 
The Honor Of The Queen: Chapter 18
Chapter 18 begins with...sigh...more Treecat stuff:

That, she thought bitterly as he escorted her stiffly to a ground car, was one good thing about a first-class military disaster. Like the prospect of hanging, it concentrated one's thoughts wonderfully.

Nimitz shifted on her shoulder, ears flattened and one true-hand plucking nervously at her white beret as the tension about him assaulted his empathic sense, and she reached up to stroke him. She'd intended to leave him behind, but he'd made his reaction to that idea abundantly plain, and truth to tell, she was glad he had. Even now, no one understood exactly how a 'cat's empathic link to his human functioned, but Honor, like every human who'd ever been adopted, was convinced it helped her retain her own stability.

And she needed all the help she could get with that just now.

Frankly, if I were an editor, one of my first suggestions would be "cut the cat stuff, it adds nothing to the story." Unless the cat is going to be critical to the plot somehow ("Space Kitty Saves The Day!") then it should warrant no more than a paragraph or two.

As she speeds off to the embassy, she thinks to herself that Grayson's fears about being destroyed by the Masadans just might come true, and their only hope lies with a squadron of warships commanded by someone who is FOREIGN and a WOMAN. The horror!

Also, I wonder if she's ever going to face any consequences for leaving the system and getting Admiral Cognac (and numerous others) killed?

Inside the embassy, she meets Houseman, and already I'm grimacing in anticipation of the rampant strawmanning that will likely ensue.

"Just a moment, Captain!" Houseman's interrupting voice was strained, almost strident, unlike the polished enunciation whose edge of smug superiority Honor remembered so well, and he leaned forward over the conference table.

"I don't think you understand the situation, Captain Harrington. Your primary responsibility is to the Star Kingdom of Manticore, not this planet, and as Her Majesty's representative, it's my duty to point out that the protection of her subjects must take precedence over any other consideration."

"I fully intend to protect Her Majesty's subjects, Mr. Houseman." Honor knew her personal dislike was coloring her voice, but she couldn't help it. "The best way to do that, however, is to protect the entire planet, not just the part of it Manticorans happen to be standing on!"

Aww, shit.

He's not wrong here, however. It seems to me that Honor here is making the decision all on her own to effectively go to war with Masada, but in a proper, functioning society the military is subordinate to the civilian government (which Houseman represents). Now, they WERE attacked first, however, but it seems to me that this is something that our heroine REALLY ought to check in on with the higher-ups.

Of course, plenty of milSF authors absolutely despise the idea of the military being subordinate to the civilian government, hence why so many tend to portray the civilian government as being corrupt, cowardly, or useless (or all three).

Houseman was every Manticoran vessel to pull out, and when Honor protests he reminds her that Grayson isn't her responsibility (and again, he's not exactly wrong). Their argument starts to escalate, and eventually it gets violent:

"I'll have your commission!" Houseman gobbled. "I have friends in high places, and I'll—"

Honor slapped him.

She shouldn't have. She knew even as she swung that she'd stepped beyond the line, but she put all the strength of her Sphinx-bred muscles into that backhand blow, and Nimitz's snarl was dark with shared fury. The explosive crack! was like a breaking tree limb, and Houseman catapulted back from the table as blood burst from his nostrils and pulped lips.

A red haze clouded Honor's vision, and she heard Langtry saying something urgent, but she didn't care. She grabbed the end of the heavy conference table and hurled it out of her way as she advanced on Houseman, and the bloody-mouthed diplomat's hands scrabbled frantically at the floor as he propelled himself away from her on the seat of his trousers.

Look, I'm all for giving your characters flaws, but someone who gets a "red haze" clouding their vision and who violently attacks an unarmed diplomatic who poses absolutely NO THREAT is the LAST fucking person I want commanding a starship. This is the kind of shit that would probably get you seriously reprimanded in the real military and potentially court martialled on top of that. But I'm sure Houseman's okay; after all, he's not made of flesh and blood, only straw.

There's a lengthy bit of dialogue where they decide who's going to fill High Admiral Yanakov's shoes, and Honor is ruled out because she's a woman and the more conservative elements aren't going to go along with that. Eventually, they decide to get Projector Benjamin to intervene and see if he get Honor put in command:

Then I don't know who's left." Brentworth sighed. "Not short of the Protector, anyway."

"The Protector?" Honor cocked an eyebrow at Langtry. "That's a thought. Why don't we ask Protector Benjamin to intervene?"

"That would be completely without precedent." Langtry shook his head. "The Protector never intervenes between ministers and their subordinates."

"Doesn't he have the authority to?" Honor asked in surprise.

"Well, yes, technically, under the written constitution. But the unwritten constitution says otherwise. The Protector's Council has the right to advise and consent on ministerial appointments. Over the last century or so, that's turned into de facto control of the ministries. In fact, the Chancellor, as First Councilman, really runs the government these days."

Of course, the idea of the Protector putting a FEEEEEEMALE in charge of their defences doesn't go over well:

All right then. Ambassador, you're going to tell the Grayson government that unless I'm allowed a direct, personal meeting with Protector Benjamin, I will have no alternative but to assume that Grayson doesn't feel it requires my services, in which case I will have no option but to evacuate all Manticoran subjects and withdraw from Yeltsin within the next twelve hours."

Brentworth gawked at her, his enjoyment of a moment before turned suddenly to horror, and she winked at him.

"Don't panic, Commander. I won't really pull out. But if we put it to them in those terms, they won't have any choice but to at least listen, now will they?"

"Uh, no, Ma'am, I don't guess they will," Brentworth said shakenly, and Langtry nodded in reluctant approval.

The chapter ends with a mention of Houseman sobbing in the corner, because as the designated Liberal Academic Strawman, he cannot be allowed even a shred of dignity.
 
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Also, I wonder if she's ever going to face any consequences for leaving the system and getting Admiral Cognac (and numerous others) killed?
Well, she's gonna be regretting it for the rest of her life, for starters.

With that said, the decision wasn't overtly objectionable as such. The convoy needed to be secured, and realistically Honor's choice was "so, which one or two ships do you leave behind in Grayson while the convoy moves on?" She could have kept her powerful flagship behind in Grayson while the much smaller and weaker light cruiser and destroyers went off to guard the convoy, sure! And in hindsight it would have been good if she'd done that.

But at the time she left, there was no sign of an impending Masadan invasion- it was expected, but not right then.

So she was involved in the chain of causation, and she made a decision for bad reasons, but the decision was not, itself, a bad decision given the information available to her at the time. This isn't something I'd think of as "she should reasonably be censured for this."



Aww, shit.

He's not wrong here, however. It seems to me that Honor here is making the decision all on her own to effectively go to war with Masada, but in a proper, functioning society the military is subordinate to the civilian government (which Houseman represents). Now, they WERE attacked first, however, but it seems to me that this is something that our heroine REALLY ought to check in on with the higher-ups.

Of course, plenty of milSF authors absolutely despise the idea of the military being subordinate to the civilian government, hence why so many tend to portray the civilian government as being corrupt, cowardly, or useless (or all three).
All strictly true.

On the other hand, I'm a bit unclear on Houseman's exact role here. Courvoisier, not Houseman, was the head of the delegation with authority to directly represent the civilian government (and correspondingly, was apparently out of the military chain of command of the actual escort force). Houseman is present as an economic advisor. I'm not sure he has any more legal authority to order a retreat from Grayson than Honor does to order a defense of Grayson. And while "get into a war with Masada in defense of Grayson" is nominally the kind of thing Honor should check with higher command before doing... "evacuate Grayson and abandon it to the Masadans" is also the sort of thing Houseman should check with higher command.

But of course, Weber completely bypasses this interesting and plausible conflict (honest disagreement between two officials, both of whom have only partial authority to replace the dead admiral, with no realistic way to contact higher government). By having it be so obvious that Houseman's decision is rooted in personal cowardice and weakness, and that any arguments he adopts for why Manticore should withdraw come from that place.

The chapter ends with a mention of Houseman sobbing in the corner, because as the designated Liberal Academic Strawman, he cannot be allowed even a shred of dignity.
Yeah. I really, really think Weber's taking out a personal grudge against someone with this character.

And he doesn't even have Drake's excuse of having gotten a giant slab of PTSD from his military experiences to work through and having to deal with actual bullshit. Weber never served in the military.

Fuckin' chickenhawks.
 
He's not wrong here, however. It seems to me that Honor here is making the decision all on her own to effectively go to war with Masada, but in a proper, functioning society the military is subordinate to the civilian government (which Houseman represents). Now, they WERE attacked first, however, but it seems to me that this is something that our heroine REALLY ought to check in on with the higher-ups.
Thing is, she can't. This isn't like the modern era with essentially instantaneous communication; this is like the pre-radio & telegram era where local commanders and officials had to make major decisions like that on their own because it just wasn't possible to communicate with higher authority in a reasonable timeframe. And she did know that her government wanted an alliance with Grayson, and didn't want them conquered by Masada; especially when backed by Haven. So, under those circumstances it's reasonable enough that she would on her own recognizance do what she knows her civilian leaders would in fact want her to do.

That said; the proper response would have been "you're not in my chain of command, and that is not what the government tasked us to do". Not "punch him in the face".

But of course, Weber completely bypasses this interesting and plausible conflict (honest disagreement between two officials, both of whom have only partial authority to replace the dead admiral, with no realistic way to contact higher government). By having it be so obvious that Houseman's decision is rooted in personal cowardice and weakness, and that any arguments he adopts for why Manticore should withdraw come from that place.

Yeah. I really, really think Weber's taking out a personal grudge against someone with this character.
I've long regarded Houseman as in many ways a projection of Weber's own flaws, just with flipped politics. A good example would be Houseman's attempt to convince the Graysons that they should solve their problems by trading with Masada instead of making a military alliance with Manticore; his arguments and reasoning were sound and he was well meaning in his way. It's just that his premises were flawed and his view of the universe false, while he refused to check either of those things against the known facts; and he therefore made perfectly logical but completely wrong proposals.

It's the sort of thing that Weber does all the time, just with different politics; for example, as written Manticore is a nice enough place, that's not the problem. The problem is that there's not really any way that Weber's proposed mix of a powerful aristocracy & monarchy and capitalism would produce anything like the written result (thus all the "what Manticore would really be like" discussions in this thread). But Weber likes monarchies and aristocracies, so he's always writing stories where having them produces results entirely unlike what we've seen from them in real life. Just as Houseman reasons that Masada and Grayson should enrich themselves with trade while ignoring what Masada is actually like, Weber likes to write about aristocracy and monarchy making things better while ignoring all the evidence about what they are like.

In fact, I'll quote something I said a while back about Tom Clancy and David Weber in another thread (I think they have certain similarities):

Clancy is for lack of a better way of putting it a follower of the "heroic myth of the right". That is, the social attitudes in his work are generally pretty tolerant, his heroes are generally "good guys", and the outcomes of their actions are good. It's just that it's very detached from real life in which neither the attitudes of the right, nor its behavior, nor the results of its actions, nor the world itself resemble what he writes very much. He's basically a non-science fiction version of David Weber; Weber's just less problematic since the people and places he writes about are entirely fictional so he can get away with handwaving things more.

I've actually found Clancy's work a lot more palatable when read as being about a wildly different alternate universe that just shares a lot of names with ours.
 
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So she was involved in the chain of causation, and she made a decision for bad reasons, but the decision was not, itself, a bad decision given the information available to her at the time. This isn't something I'd think of as "she should reasonably be censured for this."

All decisions are BAD decisions, but not all decisions are bad decisions.

BAD = Best Available Data. Note the important term - available.
 
Also, I wonder if she's ever going to face any consequences for leaving the system and getting Admiral Cognac (and numerous others) killed?
Punishing an officer for something they cannot reasonably forsee is generally a bad idea. Without the two Haven ships the 1 Manticore destroyer would have wiped out the Masdan fleet in that battle, that is how big a gap Masada and Grayson have right now to a power like Manticore or Haven.

Also on Houseman, technically speaking Houseman is not highest civilian government official in system, that would be the permanent ambassador to Grayson. And as mentioned with no FTL comms there is no way to check back with Manticore in any reasonable time frame.
 
Only way to check back with Manticore is to physically go check back in... at which point you have to fly back if you were supposed to defend the place.
 
If Weber had a real hate on for Houseman his fate post-Ashes of Victory would be very different.

Weber tends not to dump all bad qualities on one character or group to form some nearly unbelievable terribleness Voltron.

He only does it twice - once with the Masadans - and another much later on with the Solarian League Battle Fleet and the OFS though unlike the Masadans there are a few competent individuals even there.

The Masadans are just irredeemable fanatics though. They don't have good points.
 
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About the closest we ever get to a 'good Masadan' is Colonel Harris, if only because he's disgusted by Captain Williams's rape and murder of his prisoners, and is prepared to surrender to a woman. And even he can't bring himself to speak to Honor directly.
 
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