Let's Read: David Weber's Honor Harrington

[Avernus]

Actually one of the later short stories has some Masadan women who seem decent enough.

I'd say however that much of the problem is that pretty much all the Masadan characters we see are men who are either high up in the hierarchy or in one way or another enforcers of it, and you generally don't really get to be in such a position in such a society if you are very nice. Dissenters are either very quiet, or very dead.

 

[Shanejayell]

It would be interesting if the Diplomatic Corps held a grudge over what happened to Houseman.

It doesn't happen, but it would be interesting.

 

[RC2020]

That short story had actually slipped my mind, though I have read it. I should have specified that I meant male Masadans. Regarding Houseman, while I don't really have a problem about how he's portrayed, the way some people here do, one thing that slightly bugs me is that Honor never considers the possibility of him challenging her to a duel, even to handwave it away on the grounds that he's too much of a coward to, or that it would go against his progressive scruples, or that he wouldn't want to call attention to his own words that provoked her to strike him. In later books, physical assault is reasonable cause for issuing a challenge.

 

[VhenRa]

Being fair,

Spoiler

we know from later stuff Honor is a crack shot with a pistol and has a fair bit of experience firing the type of pistols used in duels...

 

[Shanejayell]

And Housman's a chicken shit and would never agree to a duel anyway. So, yeah....

 

[Simon_Jester]

It'd make an interesting alternate version of the story if he had challenged her, though.

...Regarding Houseman, while I don't really have a problem about how he's portrayed, the way some people here do, one thing that slightly bugs me is that Honor

[snip]

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An excellent point. And indeed, you would think that...

Spoiler

Honor ending up in a duel with a civilian over her assaulting him would be almost perfect as a mechanism for imposing consequences, as in theory Honor's actions are exactly the sort that Manticoran dueling customs are intended to prevent!

Unless, I say cynically, the real purpose of dueling is:

1) To allow Weber and his audience the chickenhawk satisfaction of fantasizing about people they don't like suffering deadly "talk shit, get hit" consequences, and
2) To justify certain characters being, effectively, murdered under color of law in such a way that Honor cannot rely on legal consequences and 'has to' pursue a private vendetta.

Being fair, [snip]

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The spoilered information in your post does not represent common knowledge within Manticoran society, as of the events of Honor of the Queen. Houseman could not be expected to know about it.

With that said...

Spoiler

Houseman, as the party issuing the challenge, would presumably be concerned that Harrington, being from his perspective a homicidal maniac, might choose the Ellington Protocol. If so, whether she was an expert pistolera or not, she'd be fairly likely to blow him to pieces.

Of course, we know she'd almost certainly have chosen the Dreyfus Protocol, which usually tends to inflict no more injury than the setting's medical technology can heal... but we're not victims of a violent assault at her hands.

 

[Zero Gravitas]

Actually one of the later short stories has some Masadan women who seem decent enough.

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They're defectors from the system though. Every other organisation with the possible exception of the League's Office of Frontier Security has people trying to reform it from the inside.

That short story had actually slipped my mind, though I have read it. I should have specified that I meant male Masadans. Regarding Houseman, while I don't really have a problem about how he's portrayed, the way some people here do, one thing that slightly bugs me is that Honor never considers the possibility of him challenging her to a duel, even to handwave it away on the grounds that he's too much of a coward to, or that it would go against his progressive scruples, or that he wouldn't want to call attention to his own words that provoked her to strike him. In later books, physical assault is reasonable cause for issuing a challenge.

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Honor is a good shot and beyond that she has zero reasons to believe that Houseman himself would be any good at duelling.

Houseman is presented as being mega-cowardly, especially as he's issuing orders he doesn't have the right to give (he's not the Manticoran ambassador so his legal position is iffy at best). The one thing he could have done is dragged Honor through the courts but whilst that would hit Honor pretty hard it'd also put Houseman in a bad light.

Houseman's hysteria is pretty darn caricature-ish since Houseman could and indeed did stay off the ships when combat started. His argument about risks only works if Masadans are prepared to breach the Eridani Edict by firing on the planet and considering the near universal cultural importance of the Edict and Manticore's own cultural quirk on last man stands (Saganami is explicitly Manticore's top military hero) that's not really a great argument to make irrespective of legal merits.

 

[Captain Orsai]

Houseman's hysteria is pretty darn caricature-ish since Houseman could and indeed did stay off the ships when combat started. His argument about risks only works if Masadans are prepared to breach the Eridani Edict by firing on the planet and considering the near universal cultural importance of the Edict and Manticore's own cultural quirk on last man stands (Saganami is explicitly Manticore's top military hero) that's not really a great argument to make irrespective of legal merits.

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Actually, it is something that the Masadans would do - have done repeatedly, including in their last attempt at taking Grayson - and Houseman knows this, because Admiral Courvosier rather bluntly told him so.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Honor is a good shot and beyond that she has zero reasons to believe that Houseman himself would be any good at duelling.

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Well yes, but it would just have been such delightful twist if Houseman had risen from the floor and, shakily, said "I challenge you."

Not that a liberal strawman character, even in a dueling culture, would ever, ever do that.

It's one of the reasons I find Weber's choice to 'integrate' dueling customs into the Honorverse to be so damn dumb. Because his characters mostly don't act like 18th century nobles (or commoners) who live in an aristocratic dueling culture run by a hereditary oligarchy. They act like 20th century citizens of a democracy, who just so happen to have a government shaped otherwise, oh and a dueling culture as an add-on.

The second-order implications of dueling culture and other such things are just... dropped... whenever they'd be inconvenient to the plot.

It's like someone else said. Weber, in this series, likes hereditary monarchy and aristocratic privilege and thinks it would be just grand if insulted people could legally challenge the insulter to a pistol duel. So he includes those things in his setting. But, because he does this out of a liking for these institutions, he doesn't think through the implications, or the ways they would shape society to make it noticeably different from the late 20th century democracy under late stage capitalism that he personally lived in as his formative experiences.

Houseman is presented as being mega-cowardly, especially as he's issuing orders he doesn't have the right to give (he's not the Manticoran ambassador so his legal position is iffy at best). The one thing he could have done is dragged Honor through the courts but whilst that would hit Honor pretty hard it'd also put Houseman in a bad light.

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I mean, arguably. On the other hand, Houseman's lawyer could make a very good case that any testimony about what Houseman said before Honor slapped him was immaterial and not admissible as evidence. Houseman's final words were "I'll have your commission! I have friends in high places, and I'll—"

That is not normally grounds for assault.

I don't think a Manticoran court, many of whom identify with the kind of "high places" in question, would want to set the precedent that it was.

Houseman probably couldn't make a case for "disobeying lawful orders," but he could damn sure make a case for assault.

Houseman's hysteria is pretty darn caricature-ish since Houseman could and indeed did stay off the ships when combat started. His argument about risks only works if Masadans are prepared to breach the Eridani Edict by firing on the planet and considering the near universal cultural importance of the Edict and Manticore's own cultural quirk on last man stands (Saganami is explicitly Manticore's top military hero) that's not really a great argument to make irrespective of legal merits.

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To be fair, Masada has bombarded planetary targets in the past, and are a bunch of murderous maniacs, so Houseman is right to be afraid of the consequences of a Masadan victory.

On the other hand, Weber explicitly wrote Houseman as believing the Masadans can be reasoned, negotiated, and traded with, so this isn't consistent. See previous comments about Weber's tendency to attribute to his characters and societies various traits he likes or dislikes, without stopping to think through the logical implications of those traits- the vices of their virtues, or the virtues of their vices.

 

[Zero Gravitas]

Actually, it is something that the Masadans would do - have done repeatedly, including in their last attempt at taking Grayson - and Houseman knows this, because Admiral Courvosier rather bluntly told him so.

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"So I wanted to bail out leaving two billion people to be bombed in order to save my own skin."

That's a great way to look like a total scumbag trying to sink the heroic officer's career whilst admitting massive amounts of cowardice to boot.

That is not normally grounds for assault.

I don't think a Manticoran court, many of whom identify with the kind of "high places" in question, would want to set the precedent that it was.

Houseman probably couldn't make a case for "disobeying lawful orders," but he could damn sure make a case for assault.

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Honor personally saved Grayson's head of state at great personal cost, recovered the Manty POWs and defeated the Masadan invasion and secured the Manty-Grayson alliance.

If her actions hadn't been so overwhelmingly positive Honor would have gotten more backlash (or she'd be dead).

As it the assault got overshadowed by the massive accomplishments. It is notable that Honor didn't get promoted for her actions in Grayson; she only got a nobiliary title to kind of match what the Protector gave her (and her Manticoran title was much lower in precedence). Considering even mediocre to bad but well connected officers got rapidly promoted Honor assaulting Houseman did affect her career.

On the flip side whilst friends in high places do count for a lot in Manticore Houseman's cowardice was viewed poorly even by his connections. Without getting into spoiler territory he is going to be pretty viscerally despised for that even by political allies.

A more neutral court likely wouldn't bring the hammer down too hard on Honor, the military would close ranks around her and the Crown could very well pardon her. Sure her military career would suffer if Houseman went to the courts but Houseman's reputation would truly go down the drain.

 

[Earl Warren]

"So I wanted to bail out leaving two billion people to be bombed in order to save my own skin."

That's a great way to look like a total scumbag trying to sink the heroic officer's career whilst admitting massive amounts of cowardice to boot.

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I'd add that it would definitely not be in Manticores interests. Consider the perspective of a neutral system in between Haven and Manticore when it sees a Manty naval task force abandon a people who they know very well may get bombarded to smithereens and will certainly be put under a occupation that makes the Havenites look quite pleasant in comparison. Is that going to fill you with confidence that they will defend you If it becomes inconvenient? Wouldn't you want to hedge your bets alot more before joining a grand alliance which will certainly get you into a war with a regional super power?

 

[Simon_Jester]

OK, yes, if it came out in the trial that Houseman was saying that, yes it could sink Houseman's career.

I mean, I get the internal logic of the piece- Heroic Soldier slaps Cowardly Weak-Kneed Academic and by all appearances gets away with it because her Righteous Victory makes her too famous to prosecute under laws that always seem to properly be there to constrain other people.

But as we've already discussed, it's a chickenhawk plot and I'm under no obligation to respect it.

 

[slybrarian]

I say, what's all this about bombardment I'm hearing? Just a couple of weeks from Earth at that? Hmmm, very suspicious, the League should send a dreadnought squadron or two to investigate these claims.

 

[Avernus]

I say, what's all this about bombardment I'm hearing? Just a couple of weeks from Earth at that? Hmmm, very suspicious, the League should send a dreadnought squadron or two to investigate these claims.

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Something quite likely to happen if a violation of the Eridani Edict happened. In one of his online infodump posts Weber mentioned that the reason the Solarians didn't show up and smash the Masadans for violating the EE previously is that by the time they found out about it, the Graysons had already done the job themselves (thus how traumatized the Masadans are about the whole thing; the Masadans lost that war hard). Ironically, their loss to Grayson in that war prevented them from getting stomped on even harder by the Solarians.

The Masadans are insular fanatics though, so they'd happily nuke Grayson and not seriously consider the long term consequences.

 

[Captain Orsai]

Something quite likely to happen if a violation of the Eridani Edict happened. In one of his online infodump posts Weber mentioned that the reason the Solarians didn't show up and smash the Masadans for violating the EE previously is that by the time they found out about it, the Graysons had already done the job themselves (thus how traumatized the Masadans are about the whole thing; the Masadans lost that war hard). Ironically, their loss to Grayson in that war prevented them from getting stomped on even harder by the Solarians.

The Masadans are insular fanatics though, so they'd happily nuke Grayson and not seriously consider the long term consequences.

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Having just finished a reread of THOTQ, the Eridani Edict is, in fact, specifically cited later on by Ambassador Lacy, Haven's man on Masada, as a reason for Captain Yu telling the Masadans to fuck off if they order him to execute "demonstration" nuclear strikes on Grayson after their whole original plan's gone cock-shaped, and Honor's wrecked what's left of their navy bar Saladin/Thunder of God.

(Lacy is one of those ambassadors who got their post for cold competence in the face of disaster, since he came up with a plan to stop Manticore and Grayson conquering Masada after the aforesaid turning cock-shaped of the Masadans' plans, and it even probably would've worked)

 

[Trace Coburn]

On the matter of Honor's bitch-slapping Houseman without more provocation than some gutless snivelling being shockingly poor impulse-control for a field-grade officer, I'd point out that in On Basilisk Station, if McKeon had held his silence for another second or so when Hauptmann paid his 'courtesy call', Honor explicitly admits to herself that she would've physically assaulted him over the threat to her parents. Not to mention the incident at Blackbird later in this very book, where she has to be bodily restrained from summarily executing PoWs. Granted, she was fresh from meeting the last two survivors from Troubadour, who those 'prisoners' had gleefully pack-raped prior to her arrival, along with raping and murdering the rest of the people they'd picked up from Troubadour, so 'the bastards had it coming'... but it's pointed out a couple of paragraphs later that shit like that is exactly why Grayson has courts and hangmen.
It's entirely possible that Weber was writing Honor with the intent that her temper, a propensity for violent outbursts out-of-hand, was supposed to be a defining flaw of her character. If so, it... didn't quite work as intended, though he does reference the idea a bit in later books.

 

[The Victorian]

Chapter 19 begins with Protector Benjamin dealing with his EXTREMELY OUTRAGED cousin, Jared Mayhew:

God wouldn't want us to save ourselves at the cost of such . . . such sacrilege!"

"Calmly, Jared. Calmly." Protector Benjamin touched his cousin's shoulder. "Remember that they don't see this as a sacrilegious demand."

"Perhaps not, but they have to know it's insulting, degrading, and arrogant," Howard Clinkscales, Grayson's Minister of Security growled. He and Jared Mayhew were the most conservative Council members, and his mouth worked bitterly. "It spits on all our institutions and beliefs, Benjamin!"

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For some reason, the last name "Clinkscales" makes me laugh. It strikes me as the name you'd give to some cartoonishly evil capitalist-type character...you know, the type with a top hat, monocle, and a sack of money with a dollar sign on it.

Benjamin reflects on the fact that his uncle never had his children undergo the "contamination" of off-world education, and thus Jared represents the "quintessential product of a conservative Grayson upbringing." The question they're all discussing is whether refusing to give the Manticorans control of their defenses will result in them pulling out and leaving them at the mercy of the Masadans and their Havenite pals. Some of them figure that, since they insulted Honor Harrington when she arrived, she might decide to pack things up and go home if they refuse.

Clinkscales (who probably begins his speech by twirling his moustache and swirling his cape) starts ranting about how she'd TOTALLY do something like that, because she's a FEEEEEMALE and has no self-control and is ruled by her emotions.

The old man was an unofficial uncle—a curmudgeonly, irascible, often exasperating uncle, but an uncle—and Benjamin knew he treated his own wives with great tenderness. Yet fond as Benjamin was of the old man, he also knew Clinkscales treated them so because they were his wives. He knew them as people, separated from the general concept "wife" or "woman," but he would never dream of treating them as equals. The notion of a woman-any woman—asserting equality with a man-any man—was more than merely foreign to him. It was totally incomprehensible, and as the personification of that notion, Captain Honor Harrington was a fundamental threat to his entire way of life.

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I'm reminded of that one conversation you have Sten in Dragon Age: Origins where, if your character is a woman, he exacts with utter confusion that your character is both a warrior and female (and eventually concludes that you must not really be a woman).

The fact that a self-described "conservative" is treated as unsympathetic in a book series that generally leans to the right is interesting. It makes me think of all the techbro types I met in my computer science classes who declared themselves "moderates," "centrists," or "socially liberal but fiscally conservative." In reality, these people held largely conservative beliefs, and they were simply wanted to distance themselves from certain elements of conservative ideology (strong religious beliefs, traditional gender roles, etc.) that they considered illogical or unseemly.

The question is raised as to whether they can hold off the Masadans without Honor's help, and naturally Jared is all "WE DON'T NEED HER WE HAVE GAWD ON OUR SIDE!"

Phillips and Adams had opposed the Manticore treaty from the outset, as had Jared and Clinkscales, though Phillips had seemed to be coming around under Courvosier's influence once Harrington disappeared from the equation. Most of the rest of the Council had been in cautious agreement with Prestwick, Tompkins, and the others who believed the alliance was critical to Grayson's survival. But that had been when an attack by Masada had merely seemed likely. Now it had become a fact, and the destruction of their own navy had filled too many councilmen with terror. Knowing the despised, backward Masadans had somehow acquired state-of-the-art military technology only made their panic complete, and panicked men thought with their emotions, not their intellects.

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Personally, I think most who claim they think with "logic and reason" are lying to themselves and to others...instead, they've simply convinced themselves that their emotional reaction is "logical" and "rational" after the fact, but that's an argument for another day.

Someone named Reverend Hanks speaks up, and states plainly that they have three choices: get Honor's help, surrender completely to Masada, or die. At last, Protector Benjamin brings down the hammer and says that he WILL meet with Honor Harrington. Not only that, he's going to invite her over for dinner with his family, and Jared is invited! Unfortunately, he angrily refuses, meaning we won't get to see any wacky sitcom antics at the dinner table. I can just imagine it now:

Honor: Jared, would you kindly pass the ribs?
Jared: Ribs? Of course you'd want the ribs, you godless Jezebel! Don't you know that Eve was made from Adam's rib, and it was she who brought mankind into sin?
Honor: All right, how about passing the figs?
Jared: FIGS? Do you not know how Jesus cursed the fig tree and said "No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever."?
Honor: Look, have you considered any of the other monotheistic religions? Like Zoroastrianism, perhaps?

We cut to a scene...somewhere:

"Hello?"

"The Abomination of the Desolation will not be suffered twice," a familiar voice said.

"Nor shall we fear defeat, for this world is God's," the man replied, and his shoulders relaxed. "How may I serve, Maccabeus?"

"The time has come to reclaim the Temple, Brother. The Protector will meet privately with the blasphemer who commands the Manticoran squadron."

"With a woman?!" the shopkeeper gasped.

"Indeed. But this time sacrilege will serve God's Work. Word of his decision will be announced within the hour. Before that happens, you must mobilize your team. Is all in readiness?"

"Yes, Maccabeus!" The shopkeeper's horror had turned into something else, and his eyes gleamed.

"Very well. I'll com back within forty-five minutes with final instructions and the challenges and countersigns you'll need. After that, God's Work will be in your hands, Brother."

"I understand," the shopkeeper whispered. "My team and I won't fail you, Maccabeus. This world is God's."

"This world is God's," the faceless voice responded. Then there was a click, and only the hum of the carrier.

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[NickAragua]

Ominous. DUN DUN DUN!

[we'll be back after these commercial breaks]
[This broadcast segment brought to you by ImpellerLube. When you need your starship's impeller projectors tuned up, choose ImpellerLube for a smooth ride. Product not recommended for use as a personal lubricant.]

 

[dptullos]

The question is raised as to whether they can hold off the Masadans without Honor's help, and naturally Jared is all "WE DON'T NEED HER WE HAVE GAWD ON OUR SIDE!"

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I swear, Grayson and Masada really do deserve each other.

Despite Weber's best efforts to whitewash the Graysons, it's pretty clear that they are in fact a slightly less awful theocracy.

It makes me think of all the techbro types I met in my computer science classes who declared themselves "moderates," "centrists," or "socially liberal but fiscally conservative." In reality, these people held largely conservative beliefs, and they were simply wanted to distance themselves from certain elements of conservative ideology (strong religious beliefs, traditional gender roles, etc.) that they considered illogical or unseemly.

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The difference between the worlds here is so enormous that it's hard to even compare their political spectrums. A very conservative Manticoran would be a dangerous radical on Grayson; an equally liberal Grayson would be a demented reactionary on Manticore.

Grayson's society emphasizes a particular element of conservative ideology that actually doesn't exist within Manticoran society; arguing that women are inherently inferior on Manticore is like arguing that brunettes are automatically evil. It's less of a political position and more of a sign of serious mental illness.

Someone named Reverend Hanks speaks up, and states plainly that they have three choices: get Honor's help, surrender completely to Masada, or die.

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At least there's one person on the entire planet who doesn't consider cooties more threatening than imminent nuclear bombardment.

I feel like Weber might actually have taken this a step too far. In foreign policy, nations are often willing to ally with countries they consider morally abhorrent and despicable. Nixon did not like Communism, but he went to China.

Basic realpolitik indicates that you should ally with the nation who can keep you from being conquered. Manticore isn't demanding that Grayson should copy their government and society, and the Graysons need to stop whining about the danger of cultural contamination and start worrying about the threat of nuclear contamination.

 

[Void Stalker]

I feel like Weber might actually have taken this a step too far. In foreign policy, nations are often willing to ally with countries they consider morally abhorrent and despicable. Nixon did not like Communism, but he went to China.

Basic realpolitik indicates that you should ally with the nation who can keep you from being conquered. Manticore isn't demanding that Grayson should copy their government and society, and the Graysons need to stop whining about the danger of cultural contamination and start worrying about the threat of nuclear contamination.

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The inherent bias present combined with the role religion plays and for that matter existing in a long term echo chamber for centuries I believe is going to cause a shift in thinking far more than Nixon and China. We don't have near the length or level of isolation today and you can get some people who can just no accept others, a planets leadership that has been in an echo chamber and also selected themselves from an echo chamber considering the initial colonists is going to be quite different.

 

[slybrarian]

Ugh, that jump to the shopkeeper and the 'familiar voice' is so unnecessary. We already know there's a secret agent on the planet that the Masadans are working with to stage a takeover, we don't need to see them! The scene with Benjamin and company is good, though, because it does show that even on the more 'reasonable' Grayson side there's a wide range of attitudes and why some of them might prefer to work with the enemy than Manticore, beyond your usual "I want to be in charge" usurpation.

 

[Steven Kodaly]

For some reason, the last name "Clinkscales" makes me laugh.

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Probably because you've heard of Colonel Klink.

 

[Void Stalker]

Probably because you've heard of Colonel Klink.

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So who is Schulz in this?

 

[dptullos]

The inherent bias present combined with the role religion plays and for that matter existing in a long term echo chamber for centuries I believe is going to cause a shift in thinking far more than Nixon and China. We don't have near the length or level of isolation today and you can get some people who can just no accept others, a planets leadership that has been in an echo chamber and also selected themselves from an echo chamber considering the initial colonists is going to be quite different.

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I can absolutely see the Grayson leadership living in an echo chamber. However, that echo chamber is about to glow in the dark.

Ugh, that jump to the shopkeeper and the 'familiar voice' is so unnecessary. We already know there's a secret agent on the planet that the Masadans are working with to stage a takeover, we don't need to see them! The scene with Benjamin and company is good, though, because it does show that even on the more 'reasonable' Grayson side there's a wide range of attitudes and why some of them might prefer to work with the enemy than Manticore, beyond your usual "I want to be in charge" usurpation.

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I disagree. We know that there's a secret agent on the planet, but the point of that section is to foreshadow that the secret agent will be doing something during the Protector's dinner with Honor. It is solid foreshadowing.

I honestly would have preferred Grayson as the Token Evil Teammate; they are a backwards theocracy very similar to Masada, and I find their inclusion among the Good Guys more than a little perplexing. I suspect that Masadan liberals are very similar to Grayson conservatives, while Grayson's more dedicated conservatives have a great deal in common with Masada.

 

[Shanejayell]

It's also pretty obvious who.