Ramza: "...okay, so I did kill Dycedarg, but it turns out he poisoned my dad and was trying to kill my other brother... and then Zalbaag got turned into a vampire and begged me to kill him... you can see it was a kind of 'yes, but' scenario."
Ramza: *rubs temples* "Your. Friend. Did. What."
Mage: "....tried to use an auracite stone to summon you...? I-I mean, your legend is kind of tied to them...?"
Ramza: "And the Durai papers have been out for how long now?!"
Mage: "At least a half-millennia... yeah, Jim... was never the smartest guy in the room, he just liked to think he was... We're going to have to kill him aren't we?"
Ramza: "*sigh* Well, at least I'm good at this by now... On the plus side, he's technically not your friend anymore, since a demon just hollowed out his soul and absorbed him."
No. He is, in fact, like three separate Servants. Two of them exist in the same story and are meant to comment on unreliability of history. Another one is just different (and is an alter ego of Delita) because he was written by a different writer in a spinoff.
You can get all three in the nightmare gacha game, plus variants.
One of Nursery Rhymes' two Noble Phantasms is Nursery Rhyme.
Though in their case a more accurate description is probably "the main effect of the Noble Phantasm Nursery Rhyme is existing as Nursery Rhyme". I think.
Nursery Rhyme is not the best explained Servant in Nasu's works.
One of whom is female Ramza in a bikini, because one of the three Ramza variants happened to be gender-bent and they're contractually obligated to put every popular female character in a highly out of character skimpy swimsuit during summer events to milk horny guys for cash.
Yknow Ramza prob had a metric ton of legends around him, with the truth gone, a lot of folk would have only seen him cutting a bloody swatch across the continent that fodder for urban legends. All the dead nobles as a result of Delita might have ended up pinned on him for example.
Don't worry thats just a miss-translation I cant find the exact words the twitter post actually said something to the effect everyone is fine, ...well except for Ovelia laughs. He also had some mussing on weather Cid should be nerfed or not.
Personnel opinion don't Cid make lategame anyways make you need/want Cid(or a harder difficulty where this is the case).
Return to Ivalice is based on a what-if scenario where Ramza and his friends met their end in the final battle. However, he explained that he already mentioned in the past that Ramza and his friends survived the ending of FFT. Matsuno also mentioned how Lord of Vermillion 3's collaboration event with Final Fantasy Tactics included small details about Ramza's life after the original game's events.
Matsuno: Lord of Vermillion 3 mentioned how Ramza and his companions survived the events of FFT. They left Ivalice and decided to go explore new lands. When I still worked at Square, even Square employees would often ask me "Did Ramza survive at the end of FFT?". I always regreted that I was too inexperienced when making the original game to make it clear that yes, Ramza and his friends definitely survived.
As I wrote before, the interpretation is free and they are all for the player. Although there are aims and intentions as an original author, it is nothing more than that. So please do not say "Wrong ~". The interpretation is yours and that's fine.
This is after having a twitter poll over if Ramza survived or not.
Personally, on some level I like the ambiguous ending a reveal on the fates of the secondary cast fire emblem style could have been cool your millage may vary though what we got was solid and I think it feels correct given Ramza's fate of disappearing from historical records, arguably does the ff7 ending better.
Yknow Ramza prob had a metric ton of legends around him, with the truth gone, a lot of folk would have only seen him cutting a bloody swatch across the continent that fodder for urban legends. All the dead nobles as a result of Delita might have ended up pinned on him for example.
Oh goodness a xenogear analysis...I feel like there would be updated committed only to plot analysis.
Don't worry thats just a miss-translation I cant find the exact words the twitter post actually said something to the effect everyone is fine, ...well except for Ovelia laughs. He also had some mussing on weather Cid should be nerfed or not.
Yeah, see, him actually having said "Don't worry, everyone survived, but the people with families and lives outside of Ramza just decided 'eh, fuck it' and followed him off into the vague realms of the post-game, leaving their friends and family with no knowledge of what happened to them and in one case leaving his adoptive son to burn at the stake for tying to get the truth published" doesn't make me feel better about this long-after-the-game-was-released declaration.
Yeah, see, him actually having said "Don't worry, everyone survived, but the people with families and lives outside of Ramza just decided 'eh, fuck it' and followed him off into the vague realms of the post-game, leaving their friends and family with no knowledge of what happened to them and in one case leaving his adoptive son to burn at the stake for tying to get the truth published" doesn't make me feel better about this long-after-the-game-was-released declaration.
The thing is their all fugitives by the end of the game and likely don't want to raise trouble so leaving Ivalice was probably what they saw as the right play...Cid if he was still alive(he's old) probably would not have been pleased if he heard the news of his sons death half a continent away tho.
One of whom is female Ramza in a bikini, because one of the three Ramza variants happened to be gender-bent and they're contractually obligated to put every popular female character in a highly out of character skimpy swimsuit during summer events to milk horny guys for cash.
Alter Ramza, surely, on account of being Delita's alter ago. Delita is, of course, famously genderbent as well. Famously, because the main artist for the series is known to like her design a lot and draw a lot of other female characters as Delita in a different outfit. "Deltaface" is a meme.
There is some debate over whether Alter Ramza qualifies, since she's canonically just Delita in a domino mask.
What's so fucking funny is, with every Ajora powerup, all I can think is Ajora thinking, 'Well shit, that didn't work, increase height.'
She went from Alma's height, to twice Alma's height, to even taller than that as the Arch Seraph.
What's extra weird is, in my memory of 10-year-old me playing FFT on PSX for the first time, this fight ended with Ultima becoming the boat. I seriously remember fighting the ship itself. No idea why.
So, uh, if the only time Orran ran into Ramza and Alma after the final battle was a brief glimpse at the funeral, how did he know enough about the events in the necrohol to include them in the Durai Papers?
T.G. Cid: "And if any of you ever admit this happened, I will know. And I will return."
New Pope: "... All right, Mr. Orlandeau."
T.G. Cid: "Good. Orran Durai was burned at the stake. You all saw it. That is what the world will know. ... Kid? Let's ride."
Orran and Cid, /exeunt.
I dunno, I think Delita periodically trying to do a grand romantic gesture because he actually fell for Ovelia and Ovelia trying to stab him each time would be a funny dynamic.
What's so fucking funny is, with every Ajora powerup, all I can think is Ajora thinking, 'Well shit, that didn't work, increase height.'
She went from Alma's height, to twice Alma's height, to even taller than that as the Arch Seraph.
What's extra weird is, in my memory of 10-year-old me playing FFT on PSX for the first time, this fight ended with Ultima becoming the boat. I seriously remember fighting the ship itself. No idea why.
T.G. Cid: "And if any of you ever admit this happened, I will know. And I will return."
New Pope: "... All right, Mr. Orlandeau."
T.G. Cid: "Good. Orran Durai was burned at the stake. You all saw it. That is what the world will know. ... Kid? Let's ride."
Orran and Cid, /exeunt.
Besrudio: "Hey Mustadio, check out what I found down in Shaft 71!"
Mustadio: "Oh no."
Delita: /roses.
Ovelia: /knife.
Delita: /Counter.
Ovelia: /Aegis.
Delita: "Every time, really?"
Ovelia: "I'm still mad."
Cid up popping to save his son is honestly not the most outlandish headcannon, wonder what happened to Cloud did he run off spouting Sephiroth I suppose Balthier took care of him.
As amusing as the later is Ovelia's actually dead.
The rest of not-europe must be quacking in there boots with this high level mercenary guild running around the continent.
Cid popping to save his son is honestly not the most outlandish headcannon, wonder what happened to Cloud did he run off spouting Sephiroth I suppose Balthier took care of him.
As amusing as the later is Ovelia's actually dead.
The rest of not-europe must be quacking in there boots with this high level mercenary guild running around the continent.
Balthier: "So, Ramza, we managed to get out of that gods-forsaken hole under Orbonne. Somehow. Using an ancient, forgotten airship lost in the void."
Agrias: "Still don't know how Mustadio managed to get it working again, but thanks."
Mustadio: *red as a beet* "Awww, 'tweren't nothing... it... it was luck..." *fails to notice Gillian glaring at him*
Cid: "Still, that leaves us with quite the conundrum. We're wanted men, heretics and traitors - and I'm supposed to be dead. Where do we go from here?"
Hester: "Ramz - uh, sir, may I make a suggestion...? I think you're going to like this one..."
Ramza: "What do you have in mind...?"
During the height of the War of the Lions, a crack group of knights and mercenaries
were falsely accused of heresy by the Church of Glabado for crimes they did not commit.
They promptly fled and evaded or fought off pursuing forces,
before ultimately leaving Ivalice entirely...
Today, still wanted by the Church and the Throne, they survive as soldiers of fortune...
If you have a problem, if no-one else can help, and if you can find them,
Maybe you can hire...
The R-Team!
Cid: *smoking a cigar* "I love it when a plan comes together..."
Construct 8: *wearing gold-plated chains and a welded-on mohawk* "I PITY DA FOO'!"
You know with all this talk about a tactic prequel by some(including devs) I can only think a tactics sequel would be cooler, the Durai paper is basically carte blanche for a Ivalice reformation with Durai being the 99 theses here.
One of whom is female Ramza in a bikini, because one of the three Ramza variants happened to be gender-bent and they're contractually obligated to put every popular female character in a highly out of character skimpy swimsuit during summer events to milk horny guys for cash.
Agree. You miss a lot of cool details with Ultima's sprites, like the unique attack animation she has in the first form or the spell animations, just because you usually speedblitz both forms rather easily (and they're both vulnerable to Slow to boot).
And that is surely the reason I played through a run of FFT back in the day where I gamesharked all my generics to be Ultima. Admiring the unique spritework and no other reason.
(Seriously, I had a guide written up I never got around to uploading to GameFAQs back in the day before I lost it in a hard drive crash. It's surprising how many unique sprites that never actually show up in battle still have a fully-fleshed-out Job complete, sometimes, with unique abilities!)
And that is surely the reason I played through a run of FFT back in the day where I gamesharked all my generics to be Ultima. Admiring the unique spritework and no other reason.
So, presumably, Delita knew of the Durai papers, but did he ever get a chance to read them? I'm just imagining a moment where Delita is reading and suddenly, "What do you mean Ramza was fighting demons?"
Delita, some years after his coronation, having solved (or at least temporarily staved off) famine, plague, civil unrest, and potential invasion: Hm, I find myself with a bit of free time. Mayhaps I shall read Orran's ramblings for a quick bout of humor. Luckily I saved a copy from the kindling.
Delita, twenty minutes later: whatthefuckwhatthefuckwhatthefuckwhatthe—heh, Mustadio died again.
And that is how historians believe the Durai Paper Drinking Game began.
Looking at the Final Fantasy Wikia page, I think I can guess why WotL (and seemingly most other entries that reference them) came up with Reaver as a translation for アパンダ( Apanda) .
It was to keep the FFV reference going. When FFV was first released in English, アパンダ was translated as Apprehendr. And "Reaver" is a much cooler word that also refers to copssomeone who forcibly captures other people and their possessions.
I see; while that makes sense, it just goes to show that the people who picked the Reaver translation didn't actually consider the context the "Apanda" term originated from. I'll explain what I mean, just bear with me.
See, in FFV, when we meet the Apanda, it is one of the demons in the Rift, specifically nesting into a book inside a library (for the reference, check Part 27 of the FFV portion of the Let's Play on this thread), as a white colored variant of the blue Byblos, who is encountered much earlier in the story (Part 6 of the FFV portion of the Let's Play on this thread), as one of the many guardian monsters hiding inside books in the library of the ancients.
So, both monsters are book and knowledge related, with nothing suggesting the Apanda is particularly focused on capturing people - indeed, both creatures are represented as guardians of books more than anything else. Of course, the Apanda is also a demon, so it makes sense for the FFT villains to summon Apandas, since they can summon demons. In any case, Byblos, the first incarnation of the monster, is clearly named after the byble - the most sold book of all times. Pretty straightforward connection to books and knowledge there. So, with the first incarnation of the monster being named after the "greatest" book, how do you make the much more powerful incarnation clearly superior to it? What name do you choose to symbolize this?
I think we can agree that "somebody who Apprehends people", ie "an apprehender", doesn't really fit this context at all. And, as mentioned, and can be checked in the FFV: Part 27 threadmark, the Apanda does no apprehending of its own. So... maybe a different source of inspiration than an English word was where they sourced this "Apanda" name from?
Well, I'm probably cheating here, but allow me to present to you the Italian word "Apprendere", which means "to learn". If the original Japanese name was spelled the way you said it was (which I didn't know until you told it to me; I don't understand Japanese), my immediate guess would be that this is what they were referring to - since "learning" is what you use books for, and being something you use books for might, from some points of view, be considered "above" any particular book, even the most famous ever.
So... did the original Japanese writers of FFV browsed through dictionaries for translations of the verb "learning" in languages other than Japanese and English, stopping when they found one they liked that they proceeded to mangle into a demon name? Well, I can't prove it, but considering how often writers will use words from less well known languages because they "sound cool", it wouldn't surprise me.
I do think that the Reaver renaming is completely missing the point, in any case.
And since we're talking translation, let's finish my talk on the PSX translation for FFT, shall we? I left things off last time at Delita promising Orran that he wanted him to work with him against the church, and would not let him die. Meaning, the next stop is Eagrose Castle.
- As others have mentioned, this fight features another of the most famous mistranslations of the PSX version, where the goal for the Beoulve brothers fight is to "Kill Dycedarg's Elder Brother". It is funny, but of little relevance to the rest other than as a reminder that, yes, the PSX translation has occasionally had grammatical errors here and there that I didn't point out. It's not that many, but they show up occasionally.
- As far as changes go, the first takes place in the pre-battle discussion where Dycedarg asks Zalbag if this sudden attack is because of his killing of Larg. In the WotL version, Zalbas says "Our liege lord's murder bothers me not half so much as our father's!"; to be fair, this doesn't necessarily means that Zalbag doesn't care about the murder of Larg, but it certainly isn't a strong condemnation either. Meanwhile, the PSX version has him say "It's bad to kill one's lord, but our father? I'll never forgive that.", which has Zalbag make a very strong statement that he does think killing Larg was wrong; it's just that he'd forgive that to his brother, due to family, whereas killing their father cannot be excused through family ties.
I feel like this paints a clearer picture of where exactly Zalbag stands in terms of honor, at least within his own head - I'm not excusing his actions myself, just saying that the PSX version gives us a better read on why he would feel his own actions are justified. It's not that he approves of Dycedarg's actions, he sees them as wrong, he just sees turning against family as wronger. This might be why Ramza was so confident going to Zalbag at the start of chapter 3 - if Ramza knows that Zalbag wouldn't punish him no matter how angry he is, then there's no real risk talking to him. The WotL translation doesn't really clarifies this, leaving our understanding of Zalbag's precise moral position more ambiguous, I feel.
- The only other really relevant charge is Adramelk's dying line, which in the WotL is nonsensical: "Too soon this mortal coil did I assume! Angel of Blood, High Seraph… come too late…" has implication, but they're not directly stated and, honestly, there's a number of different ways this sentence could be taken. The PSX version is straightforward: "If only 'Bloody Angel' were here this wouldn't have happened..." makes it clear that Adramelk feels that the presence of the Bloody Angel would have made him more powerful. It might be less poetic, but it's clearer in communicating the plot point the players need to understand, ie, that summong the Bloody Angel will make the Lucavi more powerful.
- The battle outside Mullonde Cathedral features another of the most famous translation mistakes of the PSX version, which I'm surprised nobody else mentioned: when Ramza identifies himself, the priest shouts what should be "Heretic Ramza?!", but is instead rendered as "Heresy Ramza!", which is always a bit funny to read. It's amusing to think that Ramza has become so infamous his name is a new heresy all by itself.
- No changes of any special meaning happen during the fight with the three stooges; in fact, even Meliadoul's optional lines are almost identical.
- While it's not a meaningful change, it is a typical example of the WotL obsession with flowery wording impinging characterization once again, so I want to mention that, in the pre-battle banter before the Zombie Zalbag fight, PSX Vormav says "I'm afraid your life must end here", which has the same meaning as WotL Folmarv's "I suppose you must be returned to the Father after all"... but, of course, it doesn't indicates Vormav believing in any father that Ramza's soul can be returned to; which makes sense, since why would he? Here, the WotL used a more convoluted turn of phrase for no good reason, merely because it always does even when they shouldn't, and the result is that they put words of faith in the mouth of a demon. This isn't even a change in characterization, this is just a mistake, and while I think this is the most notable one yet, it's emblematic of my annoyance with the WotL translation as a whole.
- Giving credit where it's due, the actual dialogue with Zombie Zalbag during the battle, while identical in terms of contents, works better in the WotL version; the more flowery language fits Zalbag better and is more effective at injecting feeling in the situation. I do recognize that at times the WotL approach works; my issue with it is that it's not always better, and therefore the translation as a whole it's not superior. Some scene work better, other work worse, and the overall balance, to me anyway, is that they're equivalent. A properly good translation would have been nice, but the WotL version is not that - it has no consideration for simplicity where it'd ought to, and often creates pitfall just to be stylish. Style over substance is an old argument, and my personal feelings is to always chose substance over style, while WotL clearly thinks the opposite.
- A clear example of this is the first sentence from Ramza in the Orbonne sequence; WotL has him say "What secrets lie among these tomes?", but PSX Ramza rather says "Ramza: What's hidden in this underground library?". It is the same concept; you can see how it's trying to communicate the same information. Bur the WotL muddles the waters - why refers to the tomes? Does Ramza thinks that the books are the thing to worry about here? Why does he think that? The PSX version is straightforwards, lets us know that Ramza is wondering what the secret of the library is - this is, after all, the second time the place is revealed to have contained something crucial to the Lucavi plot - without creating additional confusion in the player. There's a place for creating confusion in the players in plots, of course, but the end of the game is really not that place. Not that it stopped either the FFVII or FFT writers but, you know, why would you add to it?
- Nothing else of note in the Loffrey conversation, which means that yes, the PSX version also has the inexplicable "you're trapped here now" line. Sometimes, both translations are equally bad, in addition to the times when they're equally good and the them when they alternate in being better than each other.
- The battle with Cletienne has only one line of note, that being that it doesn't identify the gender of Altima: "Where? What an odd thing to say... We came to Death City to revive our master, who slumbers in this world (in) incomplete parts. Vormav is heading for the master's resting place... where St. Ajora died!" obviously uses Master, which is technically gendered male but, to my understanding of English, can be also used in a gender neutral fashion, and often is in Japanese-originating media.
I don't remember if the discussion between Elmdore and Folmarv identified the gender of the "High Seraph", but if not, it's entirely possible that the Lucavi knew Ajora was a woman the whole time, and indeed, with the Ajoran faith putting so much emphasis on a "father" god, and with what we know about how much of the Ajoran faith is fabrication and coverups, I don't think it'd be out of bound for the legendary revolutionary leader Ajora to have actually been a woman the last time this whole Zodiac Braves business took place. It's certainly food for thoughts.
- I would think that this is a case where the two translations work equally well, but since it wasn't commented upon in the last post, I just wanted to point out that Hashmal here gives us the ultimate motivation for why the Templars were fanning the flames of war: Altima needs blood to be shed in order to rise, and of course the war was the best way to have the most bloodshed, and therefore Ramza's move with the sluice, in addition to saving many lives, delayed the return of Altima enough for the team to be present for the resurrection.
- @Omicron: since you rushed through Hashmal's HP so quickly, you missed his mid-battle dialogue. Here it is, in both WotL and PSX variants; I will say that the PSX version, as usual, makes things easier to understand here, but leave the text to be judged indipendently.
Ramza: Alma, I'm coming! Wake! Cast off this sleep!
Hashmal: She will not waken to your vile speech.
Ramza: What have you done to her?
Hashmal: Her will intact, our plans come to naught.
Hashmal: When next she wakes, her sacred task made clear. Unto this world our brethren must she call.
Ramza: Alma! Hold on! Please! Open your eyes!! Alma!!
Hashmal: It's no use... You cannot wake her...
Ramza: What have you done to Alma!?
Hashmal: Her existence impedes our goal...
Hashmal: When she wakes, she will remember her mission... Her important mission to call our allies...
- The only other difference of note in the script after this point is the very last line from Ovelia, where she says "you'll kill me, just like Ramza!", which others have already mentioned. I do think that this was just a genuine error in the translation from Japanese that the PSX version made, and Ovelia here was referring to Orran - it makes much more sense - but I guess we won't know for sure until somebody looks at the Japanese version of the text.
And that's it for the differences in translation; I don't think this was as effective a representation of the differences between the two version as what I did for FFVIII, but hopefully it wasn't entirely useless either. I hope, at least.
As funny as it'd be to bully Omi into even more homework, maybe we could do a quick group project of something FF related, even if it doesn't win. It'd be a way to contribute to the thread and say thanks, without rewarding him with more work.
As funny as it'd be to bully Omi into even more homework, maybe we could do a quick group project of something FF related, even if it doesn't win. It'd be a way to contribute to the thread and say thanks, without rewarding him with more work.
Round Robin thread-wide FFT novelization, focused on Agrias and Mustadio's take on the events of the game, with a side-story chronicling Lad, Alicia and Lavian's errand log.
