Fantasy? Giant Robots? Bleak moral relativism? Square Enix JRPG? This line of thought leads to the logical conclusion that Xenogears is a FFT sequel.
Let's Play Every Final Fantasy Game In Order Of Release [Now Finished: Final Fantasy Tactics]
- Thread starter Omicron
- Start date
- Let's Play
Fantasy? Giant Robots? Bleak moral relativism? Square Enix JRPG? This line of thought leads to the logical conclusion that Xenogears is a FFT sequel.
We're using mysterious connections to a numinous spiritual dimension as power sources for punchy robots, so we're like, halfway there. We just need someone to invent Gnosticism.
Thozmp
Gets my kicks above the waistline, Sunshine.
I kind of wonder how well known Ramza is. Like, is he remembered like some kind of Jack the Ripper/Genghis Khan like figure reaping a bloody path through Ivalice? Or did the (remains of the) Church do it's absolute best to bury this figure as much as possible to the point where the name is barely known outside of the most anal retentive of historical scholars?
Zap Rowsdower
Ex-cultist vagrant
- Location
- Bright lights, big city
- Pronouns
- He/Him
My guess would be bit character in stories about Delita The Hero King who mostly shows up in the older tales as a an enemy of Delita/Delita's heroic-but-ill-fated predecessors who gets left out of later less history-booky and more narrative tales in favor of more fanciful and less grounded enemies - compare, say, Vortigern in Arthurian lore.
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- Location
- The Middle of the Howling Wilderness
Alternatively, in a piece of historical irony, Ramza and his cohorts are understood as the most notorious examples of the larger trend of post-50 Years War banditry and violence that accompanied the War of the Lions, so Ramza always ends up mentioned in historical textbooks alongside Wiegraf and the Corpse Brigade.
AKuz
Been Better
- Location
- A Rising Tide of Horrors
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Ramza and his band are almost certainly adopted as the precursors to whatever anti-clerical movements appear in the future.
It really does look like he woke up one day and chose to annihilate the entire fucking church during the chaos of the war years. Maybe even lumped in with the Corpse Brigade as proto-revolutionaires by people who have more enthusiasm than historical knowledge.
Probably seen, yes, as materially equivalent to the Corpse Brigade and all the other "bandit" groups of the time, just that while the Corpse Brigade had the nobility as their bete noir, Ramza's group was especially psychotic about the Church -for reasons that will be eternally psychoanalyzed by the weirdest freaks Ivalician Reddit has.
It really does look like he woke up one day and chose to annihilate the entire fucking church during the chaos of the war years. Maybe even lumped in with the Corpse Brigade as proto-revolutionaires by people who have more enthusiasm than historical knowledge.
Probably seen, yes, as materially equivalent to the Corpse Brigade and all the other "bandit" groups of the time, just that while the Corpse Brigade had the nobility as their bete noir, Ramza's group was especially psychotic about the Church -for reasons that will be eternally psychoanalyzed by the weirdest freaks Ivalician Reddit has.
SolipsistSerpent
Endlessly Devouring
Given they're working with the Knights Templar, I'm guessing some form of religious fanaticism. Either believing the power of the Lucavi can benefit the Church or straight up worshiping the Lucavi.
Now this is is interesting. It suggests all those Lucavi you killed were seriously inconvenienced but not taken out of action forever, if the hosts' death merely means they need to be resummoned into a new, compatible body.
NinetyNineLies
Memento Vivere
- Location
- Dreamland
- Pronouns
- Any
The thing is, Ramza is the only suspect in nearly every deaths of the War's leaders.
And Ramza was the only suspect everyone knows to have been in the location around the time when the massacres occurred. Who's going to believe the Lucavi, ancient demons of myths, did it? Delita probably didn't even know there was a struggle for the Zodiac Stones going on.
To the people of that time, it must have appeared like Ramza had discovered a blueprint for a nuke that everyone determined and savvy enough can replicate. One that could strike the nobles without too much collateral damage for the peasants who weren't privileged enough to live in the castles and forts.
Delita may have been hailed as a hero king in shining armor, but Ramza inspired such a fear that everyone was determined to erase everything about him even though he was extremely notorious for slaying more than half of the kingdom's leaders.
That's not the kind of reputation and notoriety you can just erase half-assed. They put in the effort to make sure no one remembers the terrifying mass murderer who left fortresses behind as mass graves except for a hidden and lost manuscript.
Ramza was also probably sighted as leaving Mullonde right after everyone inside was slaughtered by Folmarv. Five out of seven territories had their heads slaughtered down to a man alongside all of their guards in the very seat of their power.
And Ramza was the only suspect everyone knows to have been in the location around the time when the massacres occurred. Who's going to believe the Lucavi, ancient demons of myths, did it? Delita probably didn't even know there was a struggle for the Zodiac Stones going on.
Ramza was placed into damnatio memoriae because whatever new tactics he came up with, it seemed to have worked so well that one man and his small group of followers are able to wreak such devastation on every high-ranking nobles and cardinals.
To the people of that time, it must have appeared like Ramza had discovered a blueprint for a nuke that everyone determined and savvy enough can replicate. One that could strike the nobles without too much collateral damage for the peasants who weren't privileged enough to live in the castles and forts.
Delita may have been hailed as a hero king in shining armor, but Ramza inspired such a fear that everyone was determined to erase everything about him even though he was extremely notorious for slaying more than half of the kingdom's leaders.
That's not the kind of reputation and notoriety you can just erase half-assed. They put in the effort to make sure no one remembers the terrifying mass murderer who left fortresses behind as mass graves except for a hidden and lost manuscript.
cB557
voOOP
Having killed so many powerful figures on all sides of a civil war with no explicit motive, I wonder if people would reason that Ramza was just trying to win the civil war as an independent faction. It seems like "Why did this person kill so many figures in the midst of this civil war? Because he was trying to win the civil war," does seem like the occam's razor for that question. And while trying to win a civil war with just small team of mercenaries would be an insane plan, it'd look like one that was evidently working for Ramza.
Maybe he'd be almost an Oda Nobunaga sort of figure? All I really know about the warring states period is just from watching the Extra History on it years ago, so take me with a grain of salt on this, but as I recall Nobunaga basically won that civil war, but then got offed at the last minute before he could really take power, which allowed his ally Hideyoshi to be the guy who actually became emperor. So maybe Razma killing almost all the leaders in this civil war and then dying mysteriously, allowing his friend Delita to take power would be viewed similarly.
Maybe he'd be almost an Oda Nobunaga sort of figure? All I really know about the warring states period is just from watching the Extra History on it years ago, so take me with a grain of salt on this, but as I recall Nobunaga basically won that civil war, but then got offed at the last minute before he could really take power, which allowed his ally Hideyoshi to be the guy who actually became emperor. So maybe Razma killing almost all the leaders in this civil war and then dying mysteriously, allowing his friend Delita to take power would be viewed similarly.
- Location
- Northern Virginia
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Oda was called the "Demon King of the Sixth Heaven" and was infamous for burning down Buddhist temples, so there's another commonality. Hideyoshi was also born a commoner...
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- Pronouns
- They/Them/She/Her
I mean... I remain skeptical that Ramza and Alma did, in fact, survive. Two riders, who were seen in a situation of almost certain death, pass through a graveyard by the just-had funeral of one of them. Witnessed by one who knew them, they do not look to the side, stop, or call out -- they merely continue riding, off into the distance. Neither they nor their companions are ever seen again in the world of the living, apparently; never do they go to the aid of those they knew who might be in need of it. And we know ghosts exist in this setting.
Also, the frame story has Orran burnt at the stake just for trying to reveal the truth, but... well, it would try and portray Orran in a good light, wouldn't it, given it's author? Meanwhile, though, where does the account of the events in the Necrohol come from, if there was no one around to interview -- and if Orran had tracked down living Ramza and/or Alma, or any of the others, happily working at a tea shop in a faraway city or something and interviewed them, why wouldn't that be mentioned? Sure, maybe Orran would have left out the details to protect them -- but he would know, and could be questioned, and couldn't simply rely on no one asking due to natural curiosity about where he learned of the events in the Necrohol.
...But, well, we know that ghosts exist in this setting. And while these days the word is commonly understood to have a different meaning, it seems very likely that this is a setting with both sorts of necromancy...
Anyway, though. I've enjoyed the look at this game and am glad Omi played it and is writing about it here (not quite done yet) for us (Thank you Omi!), but:
SOON.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wceO8kJydic
SomehowNotDead!Ovelia, trusting no one around her and disillusioned with her society's conventional values, delves deep into arcane lore and summons ever-loyal Agrias back from the nether as a vampire death knight, then cue developing bodyguard romance with a side of dark magic and political intrigue?
Also, the frame story has Orran burnt at the stake just for trying to reveal the truth, but... well, it would try and portray Orran in a good light, wouldn't it, given it's author? Meanwhile, though, where does the account of the events in the Necrohol come from, if there was no one around to interview -- and if Orran had tracked down living Ramza and/or Alma, or any of the others, happily working at a tea shop in a faraway city or something and interviewed them, why wouldn't that be mentioned? Sure, maybe Orran would have left out the details to protect them -- but he would know, and could be questioned, and couldn't simply rely on no one asking due to natural curiosity about where he learned of the events in the Necrohol.
...But, well, we know that ghosts exist in this setting. And while these days the word is commonly understood to have a different meaning, it seems very likely that this is a setting with both sorts of necromancy...
Anyway, though. I've enjoyed the look at this game and am glad Omi played it and is writing about it here (not quite done yet) for us (Thank you Omi!), but:
SOON.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wceO8kJydic
...Cypocryphy said:
SomehowNotDead!Ovelia, trusting no one around her and disillusioned with her society's conventional values, delves deep into arcane lore and summons ever-loyal Agrias back from the nether as a vampire death knight, then cue developing bodyguard romance with a side of dark magic and political intrigue?
- Location
- Malaysia
The hypothetical prequel most likely will have the same tone as FFT- especially since Ajora is noted to have been a spy.
Spycraft, politics, intrigue, and then Ajora acquired the Virgo Stone. With how Hashmal mentioned that the High Seraph requires a lot of blood to trigger her awakening, Ajora's debut as a prophet is more than likely a ploy to instigate a major war against the Holy Ydoran Empire, and getting Ultima the blood sacrifice needed to wake the Seraph. Ajora being canonized is basically an instance of the man losing the battle, but won the war.
Look, I'm not going to say Orran deserved it...
But
What exactly did he expect to happen when he rolled up to their council with his PowerPoint presentation of: "How The Church plotted to incite civil war to install themselves as the true power behind the throne. And those weren't even the ones who were literal demons masquerading as men! Oh, and have you heard the good word? Our savior Saint Ajora was actually the worst of them all and looking to usher in a millennium of blood and despair!"
there's a time and a place for these things. know your audience.
Kuja
I'M A SQUIIIID
- Location
- AZ
- Pronouns
- He/Him
If the intro is accurate, it's much more the second than the first-
Ramza seems to be a name in history and virtually nothing more. No recorded legends, no official biographies, no documentaries. The church lists him as a heretic for the killing of Cardinal Delacroix but apart from that, he's no Jack the Ripper or Nobunaga. He is at best one of the guys who killed Archbishop Fulk, a shocking murder for the time but nowadays just a tiny historical footnote.
Everything else has been scrubbed. Possibly Delita encouraged the confusion - maybe he wished Ramza to not be remembered rather than be reviled, or maybe more pragmatically he wished people not to remember how this man and his small team supposedly killed a shitload of highly-placed figures. Maybe official Ivalice histories credit the killings of the various dukes and such to one another, spreading the blame among the dead.
"Vampire HOLY knight."SomehowNotDead!Ovelia, trusting no one around her and disillusioned with her society's conventional values, delves deep into arcane lore and summons ever-loyal Agrias back from the nether as a vampire death knight, then cue developing bodyguard romance with a side of dark magic and political intrigue?
"A vampire cannot be a h-"
"I'm Agrias. Fucking. Oaks."
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- Pronouns
- She/They
"If the gods don't wish me to be a holy knight, than they can stop me themselves."
thunder begins rumbling in the distance, which is silenced immediately as Agrias glares at the sky
"That's what I thought."
Kuja
I'M A SQUIIIID
- Location
- AZ
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Remember there is no vertical limit on hallowed bolt. No. Vertical. Limit.
Agrias demonstrates inherent superiority of noble blood.
The inevitable Lucavi quest looms ever larger.
Ultima, the High Seraph: "Your defiance reaps you naught but death's embrace!"
...
...
...Have you considered that Ultima might simply be misunderstood? Certainly, we've gotten all information about her from very biased sources. I think we should listen to her side of the story.
Delita: The true mark of good leadership is knowing when to delegate.
He falls to his knees. But he finds the strength to look up, and ask to the sky:
Tough. Don't blame Ovelia or Ramza. Blame yourself or God.
And also because the Durai papers aren't kind to him, either. The revelation of duke's murder and framing it on famous general (which incidentally ruined Orran's house) alone could be enough to see him deposed by nobles.
Ah, of course, with FFT in the roster now, this thread does qualify as an alternate history for War of the Roses.
FourthWall
Love & Destroy
- Location
- Chiraq
I feel like you're being too reductionist here. When the framing device of the story is "the history you know is bullshit, the person derided as a heretic (Ramsay) was noble in the truest sense and the good King (Delita) was a snake," you don't need to make King Delita Gargamel to get the point across.
He's done enough horrible things in-story that his reign of peace should come off as a bitter joke, or at least the funny irony of any nation's peace built atop a mountain of corpses.
Just because you don't feel it necessary doesn't mean it isn't relevant to the ultimate end. You're getting hung up on mechanics to the detriment of the narrative irony.
E: That last line could be used to fit my reply to Kuja's post too, thinking about it. Am I the weird one for liking the dissonance/narrative irony here?
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
INCIDENTALLY, I AM DEEPLY DISAPPOINTED
EASIEST LAYUP IN HISTORY
COMPLETELY WHIFFED
BALAMB GARDEN DOESN'T MAKE UP FOR THIS SQUARE
Nottheunmaker
Altman be praised
- Location
- USG Ishimura
So did Delita do anything with his hang ups on the class system and nobility in general? Or did he pull a very common revolutionary trick of becoming the new boss, same as the old boss? It feels very much like the latter. We don't even get a look at any policies he might have enacted. He's well remembered, so we can at least assume he did an okay job as king, but as has been pointed out, that's not saying much when you brought peace after 50 years of war.
Bernkastel
The Witch of Miracles
- Location
- United Kingdom
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I feel like "What if the Good Guy Hero in a black and white morality situation was actually Pure Evil, maybe even more so than the image/official version of the supposed Evil Guy?" has become well trodden ground. But, "There's this guy who's the Good Guy Hero, officially, who maybe has some goodness in him, but the way he and this other guy, the one basically turned into a minor note in the approved records, acted on such and acted generally made so, so much of a difference in regards to what they achieved, what they managed to actually be"? That feels at least relatively less common, less done and done again, and, for me personally, feels more interesting.
Edit: Delita is someone who, in at least one translation's version of him, is someone people can look at and say "Maybe there's goodness to his feelings and intentions", and also someone whom a valid response from others (players and people who learn the truth in setting) to that might be "Even if that's true, which is doubtable even to Ovelia, we don't care".
Edit: Delita is someone who, in at least one translation's version of him, is someone people can look at and say "Maybe there's goodness to his feelings and intentions", and also someone whom a valid response from others (players and people who learn the truth in setting) to that might be "Even if that's true, which is doubtable even to Ovelia, we don't care".
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Is Ultima really FFT's plot-derailing cosmic divinity, though? I would argue that the game instead bucks the stereotype by introducing its derailment - the Lucavi in general - way earlier.
Like, look at the setting and themes the game introduced itself with and compare them with what we ended up with. Our first glances are things like famines, familial tensions, oppressive systems, unpaid soldiers etc. And the entire later half is Ramza going on a road-trip to simply walk past castle gates and kill all the humanoid clearly-defined sources of evil by stabbing them with a sword. That's totally the kind-of bait-and-switch people associate with that FF stereotype. It's like the entire game got Wiegraf-ed
The game doesn't even really marry its two halves. Like, how do you first introduce the idea of a building booby-trapped with gunpowder as a supreme act of human spite during a character-redefining climax, and then demonic super-strong monstrous transformations, and never combine the two by making a Lucavi too strong for stabbing that needs to be tricked into an explosion by Ramza?
- Pronouns
- He/Him
If JRPGs have taught me anything it's that nothing is so strong it cannot be stabbed by a Sufficiently Strong Stabber.
- Location
- Amman, Jordan
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
I feel like it's because the world is still there. Yes, Ramza is engaging in a highly important quest; stopping the
Ramza: "I have been raised in good fortune and wealth, and I have been damned as a heretic and murderer. But those are just trifles to throw away; I have kept my honor and my companions, and that is all that matters."
Delita: "I have become King by my own hands, but in the end victory tastes like ash, and even this will fade in time."
So yeah, it's possible that the devs are just giving everyone the answers they want, meaning that originally, both Delita and Ovelia were meant to end here, a perfect capstone to the meaningless battle for the throne that ends with everyone dead and even the winners being losers. You could come up with potential permutations of that idea; Delita survives but Ovelia doesn't, neither survives, both survive but end up in a cold, loveless marriage (and any children Ovelia might have could be someone else's children, not Delita's),etc...
But I like to go with "they both survive, if no longer trusting of one another, and they have heirs" - just for one possibility I'll put up in a second.
A fitting punishment for Delita, but poor Ovelia deserved better.
Then again, "blame your fate or God" - like Mustadio, Ovelia is forever destined to be a chewtoy of fate. But unlike Mustadio's comic destiny of being as tough as wet cardboard and a death magnet, Ovelia's destiny is to be more tragic; a pawn in the hands of stronger people. A queen living in a gilded throne, wanting nothing, and yet having nothing she can truly call her own.
My guess is that the Thunder God felt the coming of his age. He was getting old, he had been publicly shamed as a traitor and then thought to be dead, and as the War of the Lions is winding down, he realizes he can no longer be a soldier and start over again. So he pulled a Stacker Pentacost, dug his feet in, and said "We are canceling the apocalypse!"
And in the contest between the Demon Hordes and Sir Cidolphus, demonkind blinked. That day, even though he perished, Thunder God Cid reminded them that only he is truly a god, while they are just demons.
It's not so much Ramza and Alma having a magic bloodline as much as them possibly being reincarnations of St. Ajora's host and the one who slew them. Yes, it's still weird as hell.
Yeah, Delita would be very careful about maintaining his own independent power base.
I'd like to think Construct 8 just upgraded to a bigger, better body.
It would certainly help the legend of King Delita the Golden. The nobility had torn itself to pieces in a senseless war none of them won, and while Delita is a commoner married to (supposed) royalty, they no longer have the strength to keep fighting. They still have their influence and lands, and while Delita would grant some of the dead/exiled nobility's estates to his loyal followers, he'd still have enough to create a rising middle class of commoners by selling it to them on the cheap.
Not to mention that yes, while the Church is still there and still has its power, Ramza the Heretic effectively took a sledgehammer to its power structure, taking out key leaders and many of its best loyal troops. They'll support Delita because they can't oppose him, and their own bid for power went up in smoke.
And now for my own headcanon of the epilogue:
Ramza and Alma leave for new lands, free of the chains of the past and the weight of their family name. New friends, new adventures, and a future that is entirely theirs to forge. Whether they do so as Ramza and Alma or under assumed names, they've earned their happiness. Having stared down the nobility, the church, and the very legions of hell themselves, Ramza proves a very brave and even terrifying person when needs to be; his eyes once stared into the eyes of demons, and they brought the demons nothing but despair. I pity any of Alma's would-be fiancés. Most boyfriends bring swords or polish their guns. Ramza just has to grab the nearest Behemoth and tear it apart with his bare hands.
Agrias and Mustadio (or Gillian and Mustadio, if that's your preferred ship) settle down to test his many discoveries and inventions, with Construct 8 getting bigger, better bodies. Along with the by-now common occurrence...
Little girl: "MOM! Dad got caught in another explosion!"
Gillian/Agrias: "*sigh* Let me go get the Phoenix Downs again..."
Construct 8 2.0: "SKILL ISSUE. WHY NOT MAKE HIM A PERFECT METAL BODY RATHER THAN HIS WEAK SACK OF FLESH?"
Gillian/Agrias: "Don't make me use this mallet!"
Little girl: "I dunno, if that happened, he'd stop dying over and over..."
Gillian/Agrias: "You watch your tone, missy!"
Delita and Ovelia live together in a loveless marriage. To outward appearances, they are the Common-born hero and his regal queen, but to anyone who looks closer, one couldn't help but notice that the relationship was as frosty as the mountains of the far north. Perhaps that they were actually miserable together. Their poor children couldn't help but notice the distance in the family but grow up to accept it.
Rapha and Marach go back home to rebuild their destroyed village. Perhaps this time, their children and people could have a happier future than they had...
Orleandu got an empty grave; Ramza was not able to take his body with him, as the Thunder God had died fending off the hordes of demons on their tail. He did, however, make sure to give the Thunder God a fitting fareful and grave, marked "In memory of the greatest warrior of Ivalice". Some say that the monsters in the region are too afraid to approach the location of the tomb, as though the Thunder God's spirit stands guard over it.
Reis and Beowulf had to flee the country to hide from the Church's wrath. Even though it was the personal desires of a cardinal that had cause their actions, they still killed a high-ranking member of the Church and been the willing followers of Ramza the Heretic. Though they leave it all behind, they're still happy as they have each other.
Meliandoul, devastated by the reveal of her father's identity and that he had slain her brother and his own son, on top of the revelation of the Zodiac conspiracy, leaves the Church a broken woman, her faith shattered. Her whereabouts are unknown.
The one known as Cloud Strife disappeared, still muttering about "going back to that place". To this day, nobody is sure who he was or where he came from.
Balthier continues to be a sky pirate. Without an airship. And yet he somehow makes it work.
Byblos: "Was there really even a point to me? Helloooo, did everyone forget about me...?"
Heh, you know what would be funny? If Argath found out that the winner of the War of the Lions was a common-born knight... who married a princess who was actually a common-born girl taken to pose as a princess. He'd be throwing a fit in whatever hell he's in.
Because (and say it with me now) FUCK Argath.
And we'll soon join the adventures of the expert thief and the master of the headbutt!Anyway, though. I've enjoyed the look at this game and am glad Omi played it and is writing about it here (not quite done yet) for us (Thank you Omi!), but:
SOON.
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- Location
- Somewhere between the stars
- Pronouns
- She/Her
There is something very fitting about the ending though.
This game started with the machinations and politics of men. Nobles and royals betraying and dealing in treasonous actions. Very much mankind at action.
But then the game slowly unveil things. Demons are real, and not just that, but they are manipulating things. Seeking to bring back their Master, whom will drench the land with blood and misery.
A battle for mankinds survival! Or so one might think, so a band of brave hero's stand up against the demons, hunting them down. Untill they confront the very pinnacle of power atop a floating ship that's been turned into a graveyard.
And, ultimately it doesn't even warrat a foot-note in history. The demons, for all their fiercesome powers, didn't truly change history, in an extreme visible way.
Instead, the game which started on royalty, greed and betrayal. Ends on royality betraying royality, with Ovelia's murder attempt on Delita. Is that, so very different from the start of the game.
Time is a round circle.
This game started with the machinations and politics of men. Nobles and royals betraying and dealing in treasonous actions. Very much mankind at action.
But then the game slowly unveil things. Demons are real, and not just that, but they are manipulating things. Seeking to bring back their Master, whom will drench the land with blood and misery.
A battle for mankinds survival! Or so one might think, so a band of brave hero's stand up against the demons, hunting them down. Untill they confront the very pinnacle of power atop a floating ship that's been turned into a graveyard.
And, ultimately it doesn't even warrat a foot-note in history. The demons, for all their fiercesome powers, didn't truly change history, in an extreme visible way.
Instead, the game which started on royalty, greed and betrayal. Ends on royality betraying royality, with Ovelia's murder attempt on Delita. Is that, so very different from the start of the game.
Time is a round circle.