I feel like a bit more narration of what Isilud was thinking would have fixed this, tbh. Like all it takes is for him to go ''damn this guy is dangerous and keeps doing/getting shit, i should nab some easy leverage on him in case'' and it makes a lot more sense. The Templarate hardly seems above opportunism.
Let's Play Every Final Fantasy Game In Order Of Release [Now Finished: Final Fantasy Tactics]
- Thread starter Omicron
- Start date
- Let's Play
Guile
Having a really great time right now
Isilud has the Jump command! He could just fucking leapfrog away
You can't tell me the scene wouldn't be improved by Isilud going, 'Sorry Wiegraf, I can't take both of you' and then
Admittedly, it's mostly a flaw with the newer FE games. Older games would mostly have one-off chapter bosses and occasionally you finally get to fight some major dude who's been built up in cutscenes for half the game, so then it's super satisfying when you finally get to kill Narcian or Marquis Laus or whoever else has been causing you trouble spamming their underlings in your direction. An enemy going "urgh I've been defeated but I can't fall here" once or twice in an entire game is one thing, it's another entirely when Three Houses has Hubert and The Dark Knight warp off half a dozen times, or The Four Riders are reused as bosses every other chapter in Engage.
Similarly here, it was one thing when Wiegraf or Gafgarion got a trial run early-game fight where they teleport out at low HP, it's another entirely when you've got three back to back maps where multiple named villains go "nah I'm out" and just teleport seven feet offscreen for plot purposes.
- Pronouns
- Him/He
I wonder if there was an original version of the scene where Wiegraf kidnapped Alma, to really play up how far he had fallen, and then hands her off to Is Isilud to continue the abduction. This would make sense in that Wiegraf clearly was some sort of follow up/rear guard, and Isilud is a come-lately who gets folded into Wiegraf's scheme.
But instead the scene just starts with the characters basically how they'll end up, so Wiegraf can easily transition right into the battle and Alma and Isilud are right by the edge of the map so they can quickly exit.
- Location
- Brittany, France
- Pronouns
- He/Him
On reflection I think the answer to the specific question of "why are all these characters teleporting away even when it's by five feet" is ultimately pretty simple:
These guys are supposed to look cool, and running away is coward-coded.
Objectively we understand that someone realizing he's in a losing scenario and making a tactical retreat rather than die pointlessly is not, like, weakness, but it doesn't feel that way. You can't show Isilud physically turning his back on five armed enemies and running up the stairs and have the player still think he's cool and menacing. You can show Wiegraf limping away, clutching a bloody wound, but while that's not coward-coded, it's defeat-coded; it registers as sad, the pitiful state of a broken enemy who must crawl away within an inch of his life. This works for the last scene where Wiegraf accepts the Stone's offer, because that's trying to be a great tragedy in the vein of Berserk's Apostle, but it doesn't work for the earlier escapes by Isilud, the Confessor, and Earlier Wiegraf, because at that point these guys are meant to still be threats, just threats who decide to make a tactical retreat and come bedevil us again later.
But you can't show them actually running away, because that robs them of that threat.
This is why fiction loves to have villains jump off balconies: jumping off a balcony isn't coward-coded, because it's something that would kill a human being. So when you rush to the balcony and look down, only to find no trace of the villain on the pavement below, that is a statement of their power, they can do something that would physically kill you, the viewer, and instead all they do is vanish mysteriously through some unseen means. That is cool-coded, even though the action taken is taken for the same reason and to the same ends as running down the stairs very fast with your back turned to the enemy.
Similarly, the true purpose of smoke bombs isn't that they hide the villain from the protagonist: It's that they hide the villain from the viewer. Throwing a smoke bomb means you do not get to see the humiliating process of the villain physically fleeing from our heroes' presence. Instead, they do something cool and technical that you've never seen in real life, and then they're gone, vanished as if by magic. This is skill. This is power.
Why do all the Final Fantasy Tactics villains except Milleuda that one time teleport away? Because teleportation magic is power. Because it obscures the act of running away. It makes the enemy's escape from certain death at your hands into a statement of their capabilities, rather than a statement of their weakness.
Because it looks cool instead of lame.
These guys are supposed to look cool, and running away is coward-coded.
Objectively we understand that someone realizing he's in a losing scenario and making a tactical retreat rather than die pointlessly is not, like, weakness, but it doesn't feel that way. You can't show Isilud physically turning his back on five armed enemies and running up the stairs and have the player still think he's cool and menacing. You can show Wiegraf limping away, clutching a bloody wound, but while that's not coward-coded, it's defeat-coded; it registers as sad, the pitiful state of a broken enemy who must crawl away within an inch of his life. This works for the last scene where Wiegraf accepts the Stone's offer, because that's trying to be a great tragedy in the vein of Berserk's Apostle, but it doesn't work for the earlier escapes by Isilud, the Confessor, and Earlier Wiegraf, because at that point these guys are meant to still be threats, just threats who decide to make a tactical retreat and come bedevil us again later.
But you can't show them actually running away, because that robs them of that threat.
This is why fiction loves to have villains jump off balconies: jumping off a balcony isn't coward-coded, because it's something that would kill a human being. So when you rush to the balcony and look down, only to find no trace of the villain on the pavement below, that is a statement of their power, they can do something that would physically kill you, the viewer, and instead all they do is vanish mysteriously through some unseen means. That is cool-coded, even though the action taken is taken for the same reason and to the same ends as running down the stairs very fast with your back turned to the enemy.
Similarly, the true purpose of smoke bombs isn't that they hide the villain from the protagonist: It's that they hide the villain from the viewer. Throwing a smoke bomb means you do not get to see the humiliating process of the villain physically fleeing from our heroes' presence. Instead, they do something cool and technical that you've never seen in real life, and then they're gone, vanished as if by magic. This is skill. This is power.
Why do all the Final Fantasy Tactics villains except Milleuda that one time teleport away? Because teleportation magic is power. Because it obscures the act of running away. It makes the enemy's escape from certain death at your hands into a statement of their capabilities, rather than a statement of their weakness.
Because it looks cool instead of lame.
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- Location
- Somewhere between the stars
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Yeah, feels like it make more sense for Isilud to be like "Hah! I got you now, you blonde bas- Oh god he got hands, i'm getting a fucking hostage before he turns my insides to my outsides", and then given how the game seems to imply he isn't in on the conspiracy, he then learns, "Oh, there's a book that's important and i've been told not to read it, get it back from hyper blonde murder machine, good thing i got a hostage"
Hmmm. Someone mentioned Alma death flags last chapter, at this point in time, given her ties to the chapel with the virgin stone. I wonder if she's gonna get transformed by the auracite. My original theory was that it would been the princess, given how her "blood and faith betrays you" comment from Delita, where she passed some magical bloodline to important past person check, and got the required belief, but it might become Alma instead.
Hmmm. Someone mentioned Alma death flags last chapter, at this point in time, given her ties to the chapel with the virgin stone. I wonder if she's gonna get transformed by the auracite. My original theory was that it would been the princess, given how her "blood and faith betrays you" comment from Delita, where she passed some magical bloodline to important past person check, and got the required belief, but it might become Alma instead.
- Pronouns
- Him/He
I don't think the teleports out are supposed to be diegetic, except maybe the last one of the update where an eldritch demon does seem the sort to casually super-teleport.
I think it's just a way to signal to the player 'this person left' without having to add any more special sprites or actions. the 'teleport' pose is just a special effect on the 'hands above head' pose that every battle character must have because they could always level up and that's the pose used for that.
Think about the complexities for removing an enemy unit mid-battle without teleport. Do they run to an exit? What if it's all blocked by living people? Can the game handle pathfinding when it might have to move over 14 different tiles? Is it less frustrating to see an enemy stuck in a corner blocked by your guys walk past literally everyone with no chance of response? Do you have to set it up different on every map which 'exit' they run to, and hope there's no bugs or looping animation problems that happens when they have to walk 13 tiles in a zigzag to the exit, but not 12, or 14, or if they can do a straight line? What if you use half the jump animation, does this mean they can clip out of bounds or through solid walls?
It's a hack, and maybe there's better ways to work the writing around them, but from a development standpoint I'm not sure if there's a simpler way to beat an enemy but make it clear they fled the battle alive then the teleport out, from a 'this must work and not crash the game, ever' standpoint.
I agree it's pretty frustrating to utterly beat down on these people and have them get away, or even win a hard won battle and the game go 'nice, now that you've failed go do the next battle', but that's a writing issue and the people making the battle system probably did the best they could with the script they had to implement.
I think it's just a way to signal to the player 'this person left' without having to add any more special sprites or actions. the 'teleport' pose is just a special effect on the 'hands above head' pose that every battle character must have because they could always level up and that's the pose used for that.
Think about the complexities for removing an enemy unit mid-battle without teleport. Do they run to an exit? What if it's all blocked by living people? Can the game handle pathfinding when it might have to move over 14 different tiles? Is it less frustrating to see an enemy stuck in a corner blocked by your guys walk past literally everyone with no chance of response? Do you have to set it up different on every map which 'exit' they run to, and hope there's no bugs or looping animation problems that happens when they have to walk 13 tiles in a zigzag to the exit, but not 12, or 14, or if they can do a straight line? What if you use half the jump animation, does this mean they can clip out of bounds or through solid walls?
It's a hack, and maybe there's better ways to work the writing around them, but from a development standpoint I'm not sure if there's a simpler way to beat an enemy but make it clear they fled the battle alive then the teleport out, from a 'this must work and not crash the game, ever' standpoint.
I agree it's pretty frustrating to utterly beat down on these people and have them get away, or even win a hard won battle and the game go 'nice, now that you've failed go do the next battle', but that's a writing issue and the people making the battle system probably did the best they could with the script they had to implement.
Ryumancer
Dragons Are Romance
Considering that this game is also being told as a 'lost history some scholar got his hands on' kinda thing, it does seem more plausible that 'they left' rather than 'back then, everyone worth anything knew how to teleport away, clearly!'
- Location
- Somewhere between the stars
- Pronouns
- She/Her
The other funny implication, is that since everyone is teleporting, that Ramza is the odd one out for never doing that. Mustadio will be lying dying on the floor going "Please Ramza...Just let me teleport out of here, i know how to do it", while Ramza is all like "We can't teleport, don't be silly. You sit on that floor Mustadio"
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- Pronouns
- Him/He
I think the teleports are just more glaring because it's not like the battles aren't plot events, quite a lot of the plot that isn't 'so-and-so died from orbital Dragoon strike' does happen in them. Information is traded, character motivations are revealed. It's not like a Match-3 dating sim gameplay where what's actually happening is abstracted away into some form completely unrecognizable.
And outside of that, FFT is pretty good at keeping track of bodies (of named characters at last. RIP all those generics like those with Milleuda or those here with Wiegraf.
Or if you really really want to make sense of this, you can go 'well, the actual battle was 'defeat X', and they did, after which their followers fought a valiant delaying action that ended in their death while their commander limped off' to make sense of things. In game play terms you might kill them all before taking out the main target, but you could read assassination missions as if Ramza did focus-fire the commander down and then cleaned up the rest. Like a special ops kill squad he doesn't realize he is.
And outside of that, FFT is pretty good at keeping track of bodies (of named characters at last. RIP all those generics like those with Milleuda or those here with Wiegraf.
Or if you really really want to make sense of this, you can go 'well, the actual battle was 'defeat X', and they did, after which their followers fought a valiant delaying action that ended in their death while their commander limped off' to make sense of things. In game play terms you might kill them all before taking out the main target, but you could read assassination missions as if Ramza did focus-fire the commander down and then cleaned up the rest. Like a special ops kill squad he doesn't realize he is.
- Location
- Brittany, France
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Maybe, but then the game perhaps shouldn't have led with Milleuda, who escapes our first battle in the normal way: By turning around and leaving while Ramza is arguing with Argath. In that event, the game just transitions from the battle screen to the same screen, but with the generics gone and everyone in a set position that allows for Milleuda to escape. The game shows you that it knows how to do a diegetic escape, and then everyone afterwards teleports away using the actual teleport animation that characters with the Teleport ability use in-game.
It's also, like, Isilud has to teleport, within the narrative, because by the time we catch up with him he's had time to join up with Wiegraf, capture Alma, and leave, whereas if he had left the room physically we'd just have... Run after him. At the same speed as he does. Which would not have left him any time to do all that nonsense.
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- Pronouns
- Him/He
Of course that scene was, well, an entire scene. It was important to the characters, trying to muddle through what had just happened in the battle. The key take away wasn't 'She escapes' but rather 'Ramza and Delitia ignore Agrath and let her leave', which yeah, none of the other scenes would have made sense for that.
I can't imagine the writers wanted to make at this point what, 5+ scenes of 'here's the blocking of how this character slipped away after/during the battle, but nothing else happens because there's nothing plot relevant to cover.'
What is the shortest actual-scene in FFT that isn't pre or post battle dialogue on the battle map itself? With what we've seen so far, it's hard to figure out.
Maybe the scene in which we meet Alma and Tetra? Or the one where Ramza rescues whats-his-name silver hair guy?
Wait, it's the one where the party gets to Lionel Castle. Which only really exists to draw attention to the gate raising switch that is used during it.
So yeah, while this is something that theoretically could have been avoided with more time/money/polish every time they wanted to reuse a character even though Ramza gets to fight them, I think pragmatically they made the best choice they could given the writing.
. . .And the most frustrating part of this entire section is, of course, Ramza leaving Alma alone with plot coupons. Which is entirely a scene-writing problem, not a intergrating-battles-with-the-plot problem since Alma isn't in any battles.
If Ramza had just convinced her to stay in the capital and tell Ramza what she knew, all this would make much more sense at the expense of Alma characterization. The stone they were looking for still could have been handed to the bad guys, and they could have entirely plausibly kidnapped Alma off-screen using Templar Authority and also swords.
Alternative viewpoint - Isilud has Alma and some Stones. But he hasn't had time to question Alma to confirm if those are ALL the Stones that Ramza has (maybe Ramza kept one for himself, hid some elsewhere, etc.), so taking Alma gives the Templars some leverage in case Ramza has more. That, and Isilud rightly assumes Ramza is coming after him, so keeping Alma as a last tditch trade for his life and the Stones is also a good idea.
Looking back, could also be read as Isilud teleporting back to his reinforcements, and they turn out to be Wiegraf and company who just entered the place and found Alma. In which case, Isilud's trying to vamoose as quickly as he can since he knows he didn't get far enough away.
That or emergency escape teleport only gets you a map or two away. That might be far enough if they do not know which way you went, they have something else pressing to do, and you snuck away immediately.
Egleris
Vagrant Dragon
- Location
- Italy
Honestly, there's really no way to justify the teleporting away other than with "well, actually, they technically could to it if they had the right abilities setup". Having said so, that's really more of a setup than any other game with this annoying trope in it does - in most other games, you can't point to the gameplay and say "see? The abilities, right there?", you just have to take it.
FFT would be better if it didn't have these annoying contrivances, but in the greater scope of "well, every game in this genre has this sort of contrivances", it's still doing a more satisfying job of tying the loose ends by at least making the escape plausible in gameplay terms, even if it's really annoying in story terms. Sometimes, you need to take what you can get with these things.
FFT would be better if it didn't have these annoying contrivances, but in the greater scope of "well, every game in this genre has this sort of contrivances", it's still doing a more satisfying job of tying the loose ends by at least making the escape plausible in gameplay terms, even if it's really annoying in story terms. Sometimes, you need to take what you can get with these things.
This would fit the mechanics - a lucky teleport can give you up to tree times your normal move, but it's not limitless and, of course, it will fail if you use it that way repeatedly; doing a max range teleport is more of an Hail Mary type of move, gameplay-wise, since it fails nine times out of ten. You could say "it's a million to one shot", even.
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Yeah, in the end "oh no the bad guy somehow escaped/beat the player in a cutscene" is one of those things that's annoying, sure, but as long as it doesn't get too egregious or isn't attached to an already bad plot then the most it gets is a groan and roll of the eyes before continuing on. Admittedly, it's not helped in this particular instance by happening in two battles back to back with zero time buffer in between, while also simultaneously running headlong into FFT's plot stumbling over the "oh no who could have predicted that leaving our valuable MacGuffins with an untrained teenage girl all alone could backfire?" problem. It's as if in one update FFT decided to annoy Omi as much as possible purely in a story fashion, even if it's not some gamebreaking "FFT is now a terrible plot 4ever" moment.
- Location
- Brittany, France
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Also, lest I forget, thank you to everyone who provided advice on character building after my "current roster" post. That was the roster as of right now, following the last proper update, and I'll now sift through everyone's comments and attempt to use that input to formulate coherent build choices.
I feel like, more than anything, a game just shouldn't waste my fucking time. Except in particular circumstances, a game should not place a mechanical hurdle to prevent plot development X only to make plot development X happen anyway.
If you want the story to go a certain way, just make it so. Don't make me spend maybe a full hour on something that gets fully undone.
If you want the story to go a certain way, just make it so. Don't make me spend maybe a full hour on something that gets fully undone.
somewhatLazy
Serial Procrastinator
- Location
- lurking
This whole discussion about how artificial and frustrating the repeated escapes despite you clearly defeating them in gameplay feel make me think about how Fabula Ultima, a JRPG-inspired TTRPG, handles this trope. Basically, Villains (like Wiegraf and Isilud, important NPCs with goals that oppose ours) have a certain number of Ultima Points, which they can spend to reroll checks and escape from the scene after being reduced to 0 HP.
But. They only have a limited number of Ultima Points. It is completely impossible to regenerate them unless they choose to double down on villainy and abandon their prior ideals to escalate even further, like Wiegraf does with the auracite. And even then, there are only a limited number of times a villain can escalate before they hit the "final boss" tier. So even if they can return to plague you another day, there's still the palpable sense of them losing something as they flee. They can't keep pushing their luck forever. Eventually, they're going to run out of energy, and you will have the freedom to determine their fate.
It's a nice and funny way how Fabula Ultima is both more gamey than the games it's inspired by, and in that way makes the story feel even more integrated with the game.
Of course, mechanizing "escaping from defeats" can't fix the writing issue of "escaping from defeat and also achieving all your goals", which… yeah. Daddy's clueless little minion Isilud sure did that.
But. They only have a limited number of Ultima Points. It is completely impossible to regenerate them unless they choose to double down on villainy and abandon their prior ideals to escalate even further, like Wiegraf does with the auracite. And even then, there are only a limited number of times a villain can escalate before they hit the "final boss" tier. So even if they can return to plague you another day, there's still the palpable sense of them losing something as they flee. They can't keep pushing their luck forever. Eventually, they're going to run out of energy, and you will have the freedom to determine their fate.
It's a nice and funny way how Fabula Ultima is both more gamey than the games it's inspired by, and in that way makes the story feel even more integrated with the game.
Of course, mechanizing "escaping from defeats" can't fix the writing issue of "escaping from defeat and also achieving all your goals", which… yeah. Daddy's clueless little minion Isilud sure did that.
- Location
- Brittany, France
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Bruh what is this
- Location
- Spain
FFT freelancer, kinda.
Although unlike FFV, it's not really a practical class at all unless you do soul-crushing amounts of grinding.
(Basically the Onion Knights have terrible stats but they get better for each mastered job they have).
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Says it's an onion on the tin
- Pronouns
- Him/He
Good job Omi, you've now unlocked 50% of the new generic classes added in War of the Lions. I'm totally sure you're probably right around the corner of unlocking that magic sword class you want so bad, honest.
Muramasa
Best Girl
Onion Knight is a WoTL version exclusive job. It can basically equip everything but it's stats are horrible at the start and has no skills. It gets better for each mastered job class you have besides squire and chemist and has the best stat growths in the game when you really get it going.
If the Multiplayer was functional you could also get unique gear for the class.
As it is, you can ignore it. The amount of grinding you need to do to get it going is not even remotely worth it.
If the Multiplayer was functional you could also get unique gear for the class.
As it is, you can ignore it. The amount of grinding you need to do to get it going is not even remotely worth it.