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Let's Play Every Final Fantasy Game In Order Of Release [Now Finished: Final Fantasy Tactics]

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A basic workable plot is:

1) Let the Lions fight it out.
2) Declare the winner was secretly a Lucavi.
3) Assemble the Zodiac Braves to sieze power drive back the demonic threat.
4) Profit

So...basically the original Zodiac Brave story and the Cardinal is just an uninspired hack reusing the Church's greatest hits. It's not that much of a reach on Ramza's part.
 
Omicron said:
"Cardinal Delacroix plans to grab his twelve most loyal knights, give each one a piece of auracite and shout 'BEHOLD! THE ZODIAC BRAVES RETURNED!'
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I'm getting a weird Reservoir Dogs image in my mind of Delacroix handing out the stone
Delacroix: "You'll be Taurus, You'll be Aquarius-"
Knight 1: "Why do I have to Aquarius? Can't I be Leo?"
D: "No."
Knight 2: "Here, I'll give you Capricorn, I'll take Aquarius."
D: "No, there will be no switching!"
Knight 3: "Can I be Ursa Major?"
D: "That's not even a choice!"
 
Thozmp said:
I'm getting a weird Reservoir Dogs image in my mind of Delacroix handing out the stone
Delacroix: "You'll be Taurus, You'll be Aquarius-"
Knight 1: "Why do I have to Aquarius? Can't I be Leo?"
D: "No."
Knight 2: "Here, I'll give you Capricorn, I'll take Aquarius."
D: "No, there will be no switching!"
Knight 3: "Can I be Ursa Major?"
D: "That's not even a choice!"
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Knight #4 burning down a village: "Can't help being a Gemini!"
 
Omicron said:
Knight #4 burning down a village: "Can't help being a Gemini!"
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By the way, @Omicron, if you missed it, the list of treasures (such as those you retrieved from the errands) now includes the Zodiac Stone Mustadio is carrying, so you can check out which constellation it is in your menu; you might want to check it out! I always thought that was a fun little Easter egg for them to include.
 
Thozmp said:
I'm getting a weird Reservoir Dogs image in my mind of Delacroix handing out the stone
Delacroix: "You'll be Taurus, You'll be Aquarius-"
Knight 1: "Why do I have to Aquarius? Can't I be Leo?"
D: "No."
Knight 2: "Here, I'll give you Capricorn, I'll take Aquarius."
D: "No, there will be no switching!"
Knight 3: "Can I be Ursa Major?"
D: "That's not even a choice!"
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RIP to whichever knight gets assigned Virgo

He might survive the war but he will never survive his comrades' teasing
 
Zap Rowsdower said:
RIP to whichever knight gets assigned Virgo

He might survive the war but he will never survive his comrades' teasing
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Counterpoint: Wiegraf is Virgo, as is Gaffgarion. (As were Algus/Argath, Milleuda, and as we checked in FFVIII, Squall too, for what that's worth). I have a feeling that people might not be so quick to dismiss that particular sign when doing so might insult that kind of badass. Just a hunch.
 
Notably in Saint Seiya, the Golden Saint of Virgo, Shaka, is the strongest of the Golden Saints and a serene being of incredible power, who fights with his eyes closed and has mastered an "8th Sense" beyond even the "7th Sense" that other Saints master. He's also typically portrayed meditating and doing mudras in a Buddhist-like fashion. He might also be the reincarnation of Buddha?

For whatever reason it seems Japanese authors might think Virgo is the coolest of the Zodiac signs?
 
Omicron said:
"Cardinal Delacroix plans to grab his twelve most loyal knights, give each one a piece of auracite and shout 'BEHOLD! THE ZODIAC BRAVES RETURNED!' to win the people to his side" is defnitely a plan that would better fit the vibe of Final Fantasy Tactics so far, with its emphasis on deceit, the falsity of noble ideals, and magic being a prosaic 'some combat units can throw grenades with their mind' tactical concern rather than grand miracles, than "summon King Arthur". I can't quite say it makes more sense as a thing for Ramza to guess, though, it still comes kind of out of nowhere.

Also I suspect it will end up being "summon King Arthur" anyway because this is still, at the end of the day, a Final Fantasy game.
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Well, we know summoning King Arthur really does give you unstoppable power:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heL6FCojAbI
 
Omicron said:
For whatever reason it seems Japanese authors might think Virgo is the coolest of the Zodiac signs?
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If you've been Virgo long enough, you become a wizard. It is known.
Egleris said:
Well, it is the sign symbolizing "purity". If you go by conventional heroic qualities, that really ought to be the most important.
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View: https://youtu.be/jSJ6PvALbCA?si=yaGgCZbIo48-Kri2
Undead Martyr said:
While I don't think this is where the story is going, imagine-
Zodiac Brave Mechs.

"Get in the Capricorn Ramza"
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Agrias: "That's stupid. Surely 'men of iron' was a more poetical line meaning-"
Mustadio, /vibrating with excitement: "Don't ruin this for me."
 
FunkyEntropy said:
So...basically the original Zodiac Brave story and the Cardinal is just an uninspired hack reusing the Church's greatest hits. It's not that much of a reach on Ramza's part.
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Yeah. I think the main issue is not so much the plot or the conclusion. It's that Ramza of all people is jumping right there when it feels like he really should have needed another couple of lines of dialogue back and forth with Mustadio to get there.

Might be a 'Ramza tells the chronicler they figured out the scheme (assuming it's not later revealed Ramza is totally wrong) but the exact dialogue is speculative' situation. Though I have to suspect that the developers were just so deep in plotting the story out that it seemed obvious to them, so they wrote the scene where Ramza Figures Something Out a bit too succinctly.
 
Egleris said:
Well, it is the sign symbolizing "purity". If you go by conventional heroic qualities, that really ought to be the most important.
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I rather imagine the fact that Shinto emphasizes purity and cleanliness as virtuous really hard might be more relevant than any generalized statements about conventional heroic qualities to how Japanese authors particularly might assess the sign representing purity.
 
@Terrabrand: That seems likely, yes. Given my zero knowledge of Japanese religious practice, I'll defer to the opinion of more knowledgeable people on the matter.
 
It made me thinking if there is a hidden thirteen Zodiac Brave. Someone who does most of the job, but, for reasons, history erases it. If there is a return of the twelve Zodiac to save the world, it would make sense that Ramza will be this thirteen Brave and why he has been erased from the story. There is the question of why though ? My random guess would be that the 12 Braves are in fact the 12 Evils and 13th put things straight, but to save order and the church, the 13th has to be branded as evil. Well, we'll see.

So, the cardinal is not a good guy finally ? I was wrong, but I should have saw this one coming. I was a bit naive then.

And so sad for blorbos who are replacing at battle. But, in the same time, it means their life are not in danger to die in a fight, so, it's not a bad for them in-universe.
But it makes me remember why I love how Vandal Hearts 1 has deal with it. No blorbos here, only plot characters enter your party. You begin with three dudes, and at the end of the game, you have a full team of one dozen of characters to deploy. Because, if I remember right, every character who enters your team, increase your party limit in fights. So, basically, you don't need to choose who to deploy because you can always deploy your full party. The downside though, is that the evolution of each character is more limited. Usually, each character have only two end-classes and nothing more, so not a lot possibilities or tinkle.
Vandal Hearts 2 try to address this by giving the opportunity to switch class just by changing the weapon. I didn't really like the idea at this time. It doesn't really make sense for me, that one who dedicated its life to the sword, can suddenly become a perfect magician because he grabs a staff.

Btw, for people which are interested to try a TRPG and doesn't really want to deal which the large depth and choice that the genre usually can offer like FFTA here, Vandal Heants 1 is the way to go. It's a little old, but it's very straightforward, not too difficult to play and the mechanics are easy to understand, have a decent story, is not too long to complete (between 15-25 hours of play depending of the type of player you are), no grinding, no permadeath, love to show blood geyser when you kill someone and as a banger music for the opening.
 
Maybe Ramza's just a history nerd that focused on learning How Ancient Magic Works when all the other nobles were learning How To Scheme. Hes like "yeah summoning the Zodiac Knights with the Auracite, very easy, I could do that, and there arent any other ways to use those dumb rocks anyway"
 
Omicron said:
"Cardinal Delacroix plans to grab his twelve most loyal knights, give each one a piece of auracite and shout 'BEHOLD! THE ZODIAC BRAVES RETURNED!' to win the people to his side" is defnitely a plan that would better fit the vibe of Final Fantasy Tactics so far, with its emphasis on deceit, the falsity of noble ideals, and magic being a prosaic 'some combat units can throw grenades with their mind' tactical concern rather than grand miracles, than "summon King Arthur". I can't quite say it makes more sense as a thing for Ramza to guess, though, it still comes kind of out of nowhere.
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Hmm .... So, how in-character is the whole 'soul-crystal-nabbing' thing from letting someone go down three turns in combat for perma-death? I mean, there was that blurb at the very beginning*, but like, if it's a relatively-known thing that eating someone's crystal gives you their powers, then it doesn't take much thought to go to, 'grab the Auracites and deliberately infuse their powers into twelve loyal retainers to (effectively) call the Zodiac Braves into the world to save it.' Especially if you're disillusioned with 'nobles' and similar people and suspect that they might not give a rat's ass about holy relics being preserved.


*:
"Sword in hand, a warrior clutches stone to breast
In sword etched he his fading memories
In stone, his tempered skill
By sword attested, by stone revealed
Their tale can now be told
The Zodiac Brave Story"
 
Corti said:
It made me thinking if there is a hidden thirteen Zodiac Brave. Someone who does most of the job, but, for reasons, history erases it. If there is a return of the twelve Zodiac to save the world, it would make sense that Ramza will be this thirteen Brave and why he has been erased from the story. There is the question of why though ? My random guess would be that the 12 Braves are in fact the 12 Evils and 13th put things straight, but to save order and the church, the 13th has to be branded as evil. Well, we'll see.
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Honestly, I would not be surprised if there was a Hidden Thirteenth Zodiac Brave, because this is Final Fantasy, and it's exactly the sort of thing Final Fantasy would do. (And Final Fantasy adjacent, like Kingdom Hearts.)

I admit I don't know if the Hidden Thirteenth makes so much sense because I keep thinking about FFXIV, where the Convocation are twelve members with their own Greek Zodiac signs (for some inexplicable reason, because as mentioned FFXIV has no culture using the Greek Zodiac beyond obvious Ivalice references), plus Elidibus as a Super Special OC Do Not Steal thirteenth; he wears a white robe when all the other Ascians on the Convocation wear black robes. (And then there's the Fourteenth member of the Convocation, but that goes into spoilers for Shadowbringers and Endwalker. Open spoilers already in this thread, but I don't know how much more I can say.)

But even without that, having a Hidden Thirteenth is just standard. Like the Sixth Ranger.

(For stories involving the Chinese Zodiac, the role is taken by the Cat representative.)
 
Corti said:
It made me thinking if there is a hidden thirteen Zodiac Brave.
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Adloquium said:
Honestly, I would not be surprised if there was a Hidden Thirteenth Zodiac Brave
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You're thinking too small. There shouldn't just be a hidden Thirteenth Zodiac Brave (Special OC Donut Steel!!!11!!) There will be revealed a hidden second set of Zodiac Braves using the Chinese zodiac! It'll be a big crossover fight thing, like when the Power Rangers and the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles had their crossover.

Or something. There are times when I want to see a trope (in this case the Hidden Sixth Ranger) exaggerated to extremes. Like someone claiming to have a 9th sense about certain things.
 
In terms of thirteen Zodiac Braves being possible, bear in mind: Ophiuchus

it shows up fairly regularly in anime and video games stuff: Megaman Star Force and Fairy Tail come to mind, and a bit of googling says it showed up in the sequel manga to Saint Saiya,

...also that this is written by Japanese writers more familiar with the Eastern Zodiac, where the cat is a much more prominent honorary 13th sign, so I strongly suspect thats the reason Ophiuchus shows up so often when Japan uses the Western zodiac; they latch onto it as a western Cat equivalent even though we don't have any particular mythological relevance to Ophiuchus the way the cat has a connection to the Eastern zodiac legendary background

edit: no actual idea if there's a thirteenth Zodiac Brave, though - I know a lot of spoilers from various sources but the exact nature of the Zodiac Braves isn't one of them
 
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I will get into the details a little later, but the Zodiac Stones are one of the larger connections to Ogre Battle, Matsuno's previous series for Quest which is a soft prequel to FFT, with it often being speculated Tactics plot was built on the bones of the never produced finale to that franchise (something Matsuno would do again with Crimson Shroud being built from Vagrant Story 2's drafts)

Within Ogre Battle, the Zodiac Stones were a gift from the gods which could only be used by the "worthy" (ie, someone with a high reputation score) for a massive power boost, having been previously been used by the Twelve Sages (basically the Zodiac Braves). Collecting all twelve would allow player character Destin to get the True Ending.
 
FunkyEntropy said:
A basic workable plot is:

1) Let the Lions fight it out.
2) Declare the winner was secretly a Lucavi.
3) Assemble the Zodiac Braves to sieze power drive back the demonic threat.
4) Profit

So...basically the original Zodiac Brave story and the Cardinal is just an uninspired hack reusing the Church's greatest hits. It's not that much of a reach on Ramza's part.
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Its not a bad plan if you have the legitimate stones which seems to hold genuine supernatural power(of sorts they can be used to power machines might be more scientific tbh butt their not normal rocks to be sure) its not exactly a reach to use them to gain legitimacy.
Agrias is the reason why anyone using the knight class is redundant their is zero reason to use a knight when she exist as her class is knight+. If you need a secound knight well Ramza exist with his souped up squire class. So the knight class kinda has issues as a longterm venture for generics in that light. Heck knights skills allows you to use its equipment sets outside its own class. Its got one lategame niche where you'd want to use a knight in addition to uniques but it really isn't that substantial tbh.
Mustadio's cool but his skill tree is very small sadly. What you see is what you get and longterm it may be a good idea to move him out of his base class, however unless your using a combo thats using his skill as secondary there's not much reason to use him versus a generic with loads of jp.

Both these unique characters come early enough to benefit from being able to gain jp compared to other ones but even now you see how their lacking in it at base compared to your dudes my team is way lower levelled but it was still notable to me when Agrias joined the party, its not that bad due to jp bleed and wanting to mainly spam sword skills but fundamentally your using the unique charecters for their unique skills either in their unique class or out of it as otherwise they lag jp-wise. Really the question to ask if you want to use them is the unique skill worth it.
 
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