dhasenan
always lowercase
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I didn't exactly bust a rib, but I did find it humerus.
Let's Play Every Final Fantasy Game In Order Of Release [Now Finished: Final Fantasy Tactics]
- Thread starter Omicron
- Start date
- Let's Play
Have you tried chucking Phoenix Down at her? Or using revive? Perhaps this whole tragedy could be avoided through the power of chemistry.
They've absorbed the mass of his nose.
The flames surge, and there's a great roar like collapsing walls, and all of it swallows Delita.
Fade to white.
Estuans interius
Ira vehementi
Estuans interius
Ira vehementi
Sephiroth
Sephiroth
Masters and Slaves maybe? Frauds and Fools?
Alas, Ramza may have renounced nobility but still carries noble biases and doesn't consider his subordinates to be people, aside from Delita.
That's because both you and the devs are COWARDS.
Being charitable I'd assume engine limitations or something was making it difficult to do all the unit menu stuff on the map, possibly due to it being in 3d on the PS1.
Because I'm pretty sure all the other tactical rpgs I've seen do have you do everything on the map for obvious reasons.
FunkyEntropy
Occasionally insightful, possibly grumpy
- Location
- Los Angeles
I mean, it kinda makes sense from an in game perspective because it's not like Ramza is going to have any idea what the field is going to be like in advance either. Particularly in missions where narratively he's rushing in blindly due to haste.
Doesn't mean it doesn't suck when it screws you over though.
Tactics Ogre (at least the PC port) allows you to preview battles: you're deployed on the map, as usual, all the enemies are placed where they would be, you can scroll around and see their status screens, but everyone's AI/controls are disabled. Then you go back to the deployment screen and can adjust your positioning/choice of units if you want.
Of course, it also doesn't fuck with deployment that much. Usually you just deploy in a big formation, and it doesn't matter much if your archer is on the left or right, just that they aren't in front. It's mostly useful to see if there are any dragons around, so you should deploy your dragoons or a lot of water for your rune fencers to shine, etc.
Still, something like that would be perfectly doable for FFT. The one flaw is that you get to see the map and everyone on it, so if the presence of a given character is a spoiler, well, you're gonna be spoiled (unless the game hides their presence on the preview map, but that diminishes its usefulness).
- Location
- Singapore
- Pronouns
- Singular They
Additional context: Zalbaag's name in katakana is ザルバッグ. This is neither "Zalbaag" (ザルバーグ) nor "Zalbag" (ザルバグ). It would instead be "Zalbagg".
So I'm not really that bothered by changes made in transliterating the names from the mess of katakana into something vaguely readable in English. The arguments tend to end up with "the translation needs to be precise, but not that precise", and it turns into arguing about the minute degree of precision.
As another example of tone differences, Gragoroth is talking like the desperate hostage-taker he is. He's backed into a corner, yelling out threats, and reiterating on the explosives in the fort because it's one of his last few options available. It's a litany of "don't come any closer, or Bad Things will happen", and his fear and panic are very apparent.
Zalbaag's response is as haughty as the WotL style suggests. He goes "We, the Order of the Northern Sky, do not yield to your threats", and does so in the same manner as a police chief might coldly tell the media "We do not negotiate with terrorists, no exceptions".
It's a little amusing that WotL chooses to have the Northern Sky Knight say "two score, mayhap three" for the high Shakespearean style, when the Japanese text is fairly direct in saying "about 50". Which is indeed between two score and three score, but one might as well just say "about 50".
Completely incidental: I'm strangely amused by the idea yet again of how translations need to read into the famously Implicit nature of Japanese dialogue. When Delita says "You whoreson dog!" in the WotL translation, in Japanese he just says "Argath! You!", and it's the sort of thing where old fansubbers would have put in "Translator's note: 'you' in this case is angry and derogatory". (貴様, which I'm sure many would be familiar with as "kisama".) So to translators, it's basically an instruction of "Insert insult here".
The translation is kind of downplaying Argath's contempt here. In the Japanese text, he says "I will teach you that chattel will always be chattel!"
Tangentially, to belatedly explain a translation point back when Argath first uses "chattel", the word he uses in Japanese is 家畜. Which is translated directly as "house domestic animals", meaning "livestock", rather than "animals" in general. So "chattel" is an appropriate term, neatly encompassing both the idea of "livestock beasts" and "people denied human dignity".
Argath has been quite consistent in considering all commoners to be equivalent to livestock, so he's been using that word whenever the topic of Nobles vs Commoners comes up. It's not just "commoners are below nobles", it's "commoners are so far below nobles they're not even worthy of being acknowledged as human".
And with the above in mind, Argath talking to Ramza actually does sound like he's still trying to convince Ramza. Argath is taking the tone of scolding Ramza for his naivete, and imparting Hard Truths that Ramza must acknowledge.
Meanwhile, Ramza is barely coherent, going "Why? WHY!?" and "Tietra was Delita's sister, why did this have to happen?". At a glance, he has more lines than Delita, mostly because Delita is focused on Kill Argath Now, while Ramza is caught up in emotion. Delita is Locked In, barely acknowledging Argath's speech other than "I am not being used", while Ramza is lost in a haze and all of Argath's taunts are just adding to the morass.
For the tone, Argath is using relatively simpler words, so he's not being Shakespearean at all. He keeps repeating how Ramza is "naive" (甘い), and instead of flowery language when describing how exalted House Beoulve is, he uses words like "top (of the ranks)", ie the English loanword into katakana トップ. Argath is no longer orating like Richard III; he's a cartoon villain gloating and taunting the heroes.
"Pro wrestling heel" might indeed be a better comparison, although I should mention I don't follow wrestling other than by cultural osmosis, so I might be missing nuances. But the idea is Argath is not putting on any airs, and he's just being a Bad Guy saying "you suck, you suck" over and over, rather than being especially creative with the insults.
The Japanese text is clearer: Ramza didn't make a reasoned and calm choice to turn his back on what he has known. Ramza ran away from what he has known, casting it away and abandoning it.
In Japanese, Agrias says she will not accept help from anyone who is not a "proper knight". The text isn't entirely clear what Agrias considers a "proper knight", but given her next line is "A knight is someone who sets right with their own power what they had failed at", that might be a part of Agrias's personal definition of knighthood.
I don't know if "Lionsguard" is something mentioned in one of the profiles or rumours. In the text itself here, Agrias's unit is simply "escort squad" (護衛隊). As in "This is the duty of we, the escort squad".
Another case of Implicit Japanese. Simon says "You mustn't... If you do, you (Lady Agrias) will..." and then the translator has to extrapolate what Simon is so worried about. In this case, "lose your life" is a reasonable guess.
Anyway, tone. No change from the prologue, apart from Ramza, which I'll bring up in a bit. Agrias is still talking in the high Shakespearean style, which fits her "proud prickly noble knight" character archetype, and Gaffgarion is still rough and direct and low-tone. Simon is still vaguely Generic, possibly because he's just a very minor NPC.
For Ramza's characterization, he's sounding more like a young person eager to prove himself (or at least tag along on the mission) than in the previous chapter. Ramza is essentially going "Me, pick me, I want to go too!" like an early-episode shounen hero. It's a strange and quite sudden (from the player's perspective) change from the polite Generic Ramza in most of Chapter 1.
I missed this the first time around, so I should mention: "The Meager" in Japanese is 持たざる者. We last saw this phrase in the "grass whistle" cutscene, where Delita used it to describe himself and all commoners in general. I translated it as "the have-nots", but in hindsight I should have translated it as "the meager", to call back to the chapter title.
Chapter 2's title is 利用する者される者. And it's a blatant callback to the midbattle dialogue at Ziekden Fortress, where Argath divides the world between "those who use others" and "those who are used". Which is what Chapter 2's title directly translates into: "Those who use, and those who are used".
Feel free to insert the "subtlety is for cowards" meme image here.
Trivia: Gaffgarion's full name in katakana is ガフ・ガフガリオン. Which would transliterate into "Gaff Gaffgarion". I do not blame the WotL translation for going "let's just say it's short for 'Goffard'".
No mention of "Lionsguard" in the Japanese text here either. Agrias is stated to be a member of the 近衛騎士団, which I'm not sure about a proper translation of other than the literal: "close protection knight order". As in the knight order with the role of "close protection" of their charge. Since this knight order is "under the direct command of the royal family", this works out to be "royal bodyguards". (近衛 is often translated as "Imperial Guards", because the context assumed is for the Japanese imperial family. Thus, same idea.)
I suppose "Lionsguard" might be an invention of the translation, to create a proper name for Agrias's affiliation. "Praetorian Guard" is too fraught with historical baggage, and "Royal Guard" is too vague.
If it matters, there are indeed minor variations from the Japanese script site I'm looking at. And on surface Googling, the variations also exist in the PSP version.
As we've seen in Omicron's playthrough, if you chose to save Argath, he goes "I was saved only because you wanted to use me, am I right?". If you chose not to save him, he goes "Back at the Mandalian Plains you prioritized your duty over my life, why can't you do the same now".
So it's kind of a Morton's Fork situation. For the "do not save Argath" dialogue version, Ramza doesn't have a rebuttal other than a frustrated tsk.
So it's kind of a Morton's Fork situation. For the "do not save Argath" dialogue version, Ramza doesn't have a rebuttal other than a frustrated tsk.
(Put in spoilers in case it counts as one. There appears to be no relevance beyond that one dialogue exchange.)
Additional trivia: there's one more mid-battle trigger, which didn't seem to have happened in Omicron's playthrough.
EDIT: I was mistaken, and the exchange is very significant. If Delita loses HP, on Ramza's next turn he goes "Are you okay, Delita?", and Delita goes "Don't you worry about me, Ramza. Once I'm done with Argath, you're next", which is kind of an awkward thing to say in the middle of a battle where the player still has to mechanically heal up Delita.
Cura: "Wind of pure life, dance in the sky. Heal the evil wounds!" Very close.
Ramuh: "Lord of all creation, I look to thy judgment!" Also quite close. I really like this chant, because it has a couple of cool bits: the word "thy" is 汝, familiar to anyone who plays the Persona games in Japanese audio as "nanji", ie the old form of saying "you". As for "all creation", the phrase is 森羅万象, "shinra banshou". Literally "The ten thousand forms of the cloth/thread of the forests".
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- Location
- Sweden
Yes, specifically the line where Argath mentions Ramza saving him because he "saw some use in him", if you chose to not focus on saving him, he'll say that he thought Ramza understood that the mission is more important.
The psx translation follow through on the ran away stuff.
Argath while actuallly make you lose the brave you gain from taking the not saving option in this encounter if you do that, you can keep the brave by killing him faster then he can open his mouth, not that it matter you get a skill to boost brave this very next map for purchase.
Argath while actuallly make you lose the brave you gain from taking the not saving option in this encounter if you do that, you can keep the brave by killing him faster then he can open his mouth, not that it matter you get a skill to boost brave this very next map for purchase.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
- Location
- Singapore
- Pronouns
- Singular They
- Location
- USA
Wait, really? On the script site I'm looking at, Delita's line was "オレに構うな、ラムザ！ アルガスの次は、おまえの番だッ！！", which translates as "Don't you care about me, Ramza! After Argath, you're next!!"
Which is a rather significant difference. And also a great callback to Milleuda's "You bear the name Beoulve, and that name is my enemy."
- Location
- Malaysia
Probably to fit the CGI. Honestly, I am not liking the CGI additions at all. The PSX version only has a wall of text with sepia background.
It's most likely because of the title of game? 'War of the Lions'? Black Lion, White Lion, putting the Royalguards' translated name as 'the Lionsguard' just made sense then, since it is still in theme.
"The players and the pawns" could work.
- Location
- Sweden
Incidentally, that trigger can happen even if Delita loses enough HP to die, and will revive him with 1 HP.
This is important to remember about the Undead and Ghosts. On a positive side, the old FF 'healing hurts undead' works, too.
So, the PSX version had it so if you hit SELECT you can pull up additional info on the map, the roster screen, etc. Summoner I believe mentions that the summons are illusions that still can effect the world. One of the early forests mention that it used to have Moogles, but no one had seen them in centuries. FFT also predates No Mou, Bangaa, and Viera in the series, so no mention of them.
*Looks at levels* Gosh, they're low. I know I overlevel, but I don't know I've ever hit this level at less than twice yours.
Coming from the PSX version.... my read on the situation was that Zalbaag was operating on Dycedarg's orders. If he could save Tietra, fine, but the priority was wiping out the Corpse Brigade, not saving a commoner. Zalbaag was willing to live with Argath 'missing' and hitting Tietra, as long as Argath finishes the job at the Fort. So Dycedarg and Argath are dicks, Zalbaag is willing to look the other way.
I joke in FFXIV for others not to worry, Argath deserves what we do to him in it.
I do prefer the PSX version, done in the ingame engine.
Ramza: "I had lived my life the only way that I had known. But when the pillars of that life came crashing down, I did not stand and watch them fall. I turned, and walked away."Remember what Ramza's dad said on his deathbed? Ramza's whole worldview has been hit.
Okay, a lot to unpack here.
First, the Queen. She has a good reason to be worried. The Prince is the Queen's third child, is a year or three old, and has lived the longest out of all of her children. The Prince was also born during the King's declining health. And then there's Princess Ovelia, the daughter of the much more popular king before Ondoria, adopted by Ondoria to have an heir since Louveria's first two children didn't live a year.
So, why did Orinus live, unlike the others? Is he really Ondoria's son? Louveria's situation (and thus Larg and the Northern's Sky-aligned nobles) is very vulnerable.
Also, this is pretty much the last mention of the Order of the Eastern Sky. Hope you didn't get attached!
Agrias's attitude makes plenty of sense - she's a member of the Lionsguard. Her entire job is protecting the royalty.
On a side note - I personally always took the point of view that the various Orders of the Sky were basically how the armies of Ivalice were organized. While led by nobility, not everyone in it is a knight. Or if they are, they are running on the game mechanics definition of knight, which just means they hit job level 2 on Squire.
- Location
- Singapore
- Pronouns
- Singular They
You're right, I was mistaken. Delita is actually threatening Ramza, which has a great deal of Implications which are nowhere to be found in any other piece of dialogue in that battle.
Which means its missability is certainly A Decision.
I don't like that version. That's a weird jump for Delita to suddenly make, since Ramza himself is only passively to blame for the entire sequence.
- Location
- Malaysia
Probably a spur-of-the-moment thing. Argath is gloating about the worthlessness of commoners' lives literally after shooting his baby sister with Zalbaag's express permission. He's really not in the right mind to separate Ramza Beoulve from Zalbaag Beoulve when one just casually permitted murder of the girl he claimed to treat as family.
- Location
- Canada
So first off, that fight. My strat (at level 5) was to just run behind the fort, leave Delita to die, and wait for Argath to run in front of everyone and get dogpiled.
Also the Lionsguard is, yes, a reference to Game of Throne's Kingsguard. In the PSX version Agrias is mentioned as a Knight of St. Konoe... somewhere I forget where.
Also also. Man, Argath, am I right?
Also the Lionsguard is, yes, a reference to Game of Throne's Kingsguard. In the PSX version Agrias is mentioned as a Knight of St. Konoe... somewhere I forget where.
Also also. Man, Argath, am I right?
- Location
- USA
🤦♂️
"konoe" is how 近衛 is pronounced. Adloquium explained what that phrase means in their post further up this page. Did the English translators back then really turn "holy knight from/of the royal bodyguard" into "knight of St. Konoe"?
"konoe" is how 近衛 is pronounced. Adloquium explained what that phrase means in their post further up this page. Did the English translators back then really turn "holy knight from/of the royal bodyguard" into "knight of St. Konoe"?
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- Location
- Canada
Well strictly speaking it's "St. Konoe Knights" but yes.🤦♂️
"konoe" is how 近衛 is pronounced. Adloquium explained what that phrase means in their post further up this page. Did the English translators back then really turn "holy knight from/of the royal bodyguard" into "knight of St. Konoe"?
They weren't the best translation team out there.
- Location
- Singapore
- Pronouns
- Singular They
🤦♂️
"konoe" is, uh, how 近衛 is pronounced. Adloquium explained what that phrase means in his post further up this page. Did the English translators back then really turn "holy knight from/of the royal bodyguard" into "knight of St. Konoe"?
Given the presence of "Hokuten" and "Nanten" in the PSX translation, it would seem so.
For further trivia, this is the Wikipedia page for the Imperial Guard of Japan. To summarize, they were a thing from the Meiji Restoration until the end of WW2, because they were part of the Imperial Japanese Army and thus an endless fount of warcrimes. After WW2, the role was given to the police, specifically the Tokyo Metropolitan Police. In English they're still "Imperial Guard", but their name in Japanese is different (皇宮警察本部, literally "Imperial Palace Police Headquarters").
近衛 as "Konoe" is slightly more understandable, because someone who isn't aware of the historical Imperial Guard of Japan might see it as the surname of several fairly famous people in older history. Including a number of people from the Konoe clan, ranging from historically powerful courtiers to the current president of the Japanese Red Cross society. Still, a translator should have looked at the Fantasy Faux-Europe circa War Of The Roses of FFT, and asked themselves "would the Konoe clan be present or relevant here?"
Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
Considering the prevalence of ninja, samurai and kung fu monks in the otherwise fairly standard western fantasy settings of Final Fantasy, I can't quite blame the translators for making this mistake.
The monks are actually Dominicans. They know kung fu for unrelated reasons.
Thozmp
Gets my kicks above the waistline, Sunshine.
Class progression gets weird sometimes.
Like, let's say everyone at the Akademy, starts as a student. You have some going, "P.E. is all I need!" and become a squire, while others are like "Alchemy is like magic with training wheels, right?" and become a chemist.
From Squire, you have two options, either "I've trained for this!" and become a knight, or "Yeah, that looks painful..." and become an archer. From there, the knight goes, "But what if my body is a weapon?" drops their armor and sword and becomes a
Then it gets weird, because the monk probably got high and started thinking, "What if, the environment was my weapon?" and becomes a geomancer; meanwhile, the thief is thinking, "It really hurts when I get hit!" picks up the armor the knight dropped, and becomes a dragoon, because they've never skipped leg day.
One the other side, we have the Chemist, who is looking at the potion they're holding and thinking, "I have the power of life and death in my hands, but what if I didn't need the bottle?" Some lean towards the life side, and become white mages, while others lean towards the death side and become black mages.
From there the progression kind of makes sense, Black mages master the basic fundamentals of the arcane arts, as a time mage use those fundamentals to manipulate time and space, and as a summoner, use their knowledge of time and space to reach beyond and call on powerful entities to aid them.
White mages are all about the healing and the helping (and that one bit of hurting), but takes a long look at stuff like Protect and Wall and wonders what else these more indirect magics can do, thus starting their path as Mystics.
I'd expand on this, but I think I'll just leave it at the stuff Omi has unlocked.