MiskWisk
Hoot
- Location
- Somewhere devoid of wit
- Pronouns
- He
My read is on the text the game gives you which you haven't got to yet.
Let's Play Every Final Fantasy Game In Order Of Release [Now Finished: Final Fantasy Tactics]
- Thread starter Omicron
- Start date
- Let's Play
kairuf
(Verified Kaiger) (Not the Siberian)
- Location
- The land of Potatoes
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- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
wild he really hasn't. Reading over his wiki page his first name might be literally the english word President? Because he is referred to as President Shinra, as in the english word President, by people, and Rufus is not- Rufus is referred to as a company president in just japanese and that's President Shinra's given position in company charts, but when speaking to or otherwise referring to him, including his speech boxes, according to the wiki it's always the english word president.
But if it's not that (and nothing clearly says 'no he is literally named president', apparently) then yeah we literally only have his surname. Truly wild given the amount of remakes and side materials and spin offs and what have you.
kairuf
(Verified Kaiger) (Not the Siberian)
- Location
- The land of Potatoes
And thus we discover the cause of President Shinra's ruthless rise to power. When you are a boy named President, you have to make something of yourself else you end up a laughing stock for eternity.
Everything was done to meet his parents unrealistic demands.
Whichever one causes you the most mental anguish. Or considering JENOVA shenanigans, both.
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GilliamYaeger
M'crazy.
Vincent has an impenetrable aura of no bitches that causes me to believe that he never had a hope in hell with Lucrecia.
I'd say that radiates Fuhrer King Bradley energy, but President Shinra is just not cool enough to do that.
Seph's much more of a creep (toward Cloud) than brooding emo.
(He also managed to have some style for a minute, which is more than either one of the two. Maybe from his mother?)
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I think that Hojo is the more likely candidate to be Sephiroth's father then Vincent, if only because it functions better as you yourself pointed out.
Vincent is just such a non-character in FF7 due to his everything being left on the cutting room floor that him being Sephiroth's father would be such an out there revelation. Shadow and Relm gets more foreshadowing. Hojo, meanwhile, functions as Frankenstein with Sephiroth as his monster. Hojo has always been the bridge between the Shinra plot and the Jenova plot, him being the literal father of Shinra's false Messiah is well written storytelling.
- Location
- East Coast
Chairman President Shinra.
Fuhrer King Bradley.
Founding members of the 'Too On the Nose Club'.
- Location
- Singapore
- Pronouns
- Singular They
If we take one end of the interpretation spectrum, Hojo's misdeeds are Hojo's alone, and the culpability of the system Shinra embodies just lets Hojo do his horribleness with resources and reach. Thus, removing Hojo and putting someone else in his place (as mentioned, potentially Amoral Gast) means much of the horribleness in the story don't happen, and nothing similar happens either. The blame is all on Hojo.
The other end of the interpretation spectrum is that if it wasn't Hojo causing all this Sephiroth and Jenova business, it would be someone else. Perhaps not exactly in the form of a rogue super-SOLDIER casting Meteor to end the world at the behest of an alien parasite, but something else similar in scope and horribleness; another Umbral Calamity candidate, to use FFXIV terms. The primary influence Hojo has on the state of the world is merely the form of the apocalypse, rather than the apocalypse happening at all.
So a Gast, or even a Bugenhagen, in the latter case would be the sort to go "of course I'm not going to try to breed the last Cetra with a cat-dog thing, that's terrible. Now, these Huge Materia are interesting, what if we supercharge them and maybe expose them to Jenova energy..."
As usual, most interpretations will probably fall somewhere between these two extremes. To bring it back to the question of whether it's a response to "science" war crimes in WWII (ie war crimes for the purposes of claimed "scientific research"), it would be like trying to decide if Unit 731 was especially horrible because of the people involved, and so an alternate timeline with different people involved would be "better", or if the whole situation with the Imperial Japanese Army and the sort of people it attracted (and the culture within it) meant there would always be a Unit 731.
And I don't really know what is the intended interpretation regarding Hojo here. This is largely a consequence of FFVII being, well, a game, so the game text has to ration out its time and attention between multiple focuses, and might not have been able to be more explicit with whether Hojo is One Bad Apple, or go into an essay about Shinra's Systemic Sins. I don't think it's impossible, since Metal Gear Solid exists, but it's just not what FFVII decided to concentrate on.
The old President Shinra has not been given a first name, no. I also find this surprising, given the "Tales From The Mos Eisley Cantina" level of added details to the FFVII setting in the years since its first release.
And for the subject of this discussion, Hojo has not only not been given a full name, we don't even know for certain whether "Hojo" is his first or last name. His predecessor actually gets a full name in extra materials: Gast Faremis. Which means "Professor Gast" would be referring to him by his given name.
Except "Hojo", as written in Japanese (宝条), is a common Japanese surname. It's mostly unremarkable (as opposed to "Shinra", which is completely unseen outside of FFVII) as a surname, with the only notable part being how it uses slightly different kanji than normal. Which is "北条", made famous by a number of historical clans that have no relation to each other, illustrating how common the name is.
So if we assume "common sense", "Hojo" is his surname, but if we take Professor Gast's example, it could be his given name.
I mean, there's an even-more-unsupported-by-canon option of it being Gast. No idea if there's any fan belief behind it, but since Gast's whole thing is that he's simultaneously the one responsible for unearthing Jenova in the first place and the one who's responsible for Aerith existing, it'd sort of tie into his theming of "commits massive fuckup while working for Shinra that he tries unsuccessfully to make up for with Ifalna," and he is mentioned as one of the people Vincent 'failed to stop' during the flashback.
The main problem, of course, being that as far as I can tell Gast and Lucrecia have basically zero screen time together... and also that it means Vincent's Cuck Arc is now a Double Cuck Arc I guess.
Kuja
I'M A SQUIIIID
- Location
- AZ
- Pronouns
- He/Him
"Just 'Hojo.' Like Madonna."
Zap Rowsdower
Ex-cultist vagrant
- Location
- Bright lights, big city
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Maybe the world is low population enough that not everybody HAS a surname? Like, maybe President Shinra only has a given name, Shinra, but because he got fame and prestige he made it into a surname for his son. Surnames ARE a fairly recent phenomenon IRL for many outside European nobility, although lacking them while also not using universal patronyms is admittedly unusual
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kairuf
(Verified Kaiger) (Not the Siberian)
- Location
- The land of Potatoes
Chairman President Shinra.
Fuhrer King Bradley.
Founding members of the 'Too On the Nose Club'.
You know, none of the most senior members of Shinra have clear first/last names. Maybe it was fashionable to give kids important sounding names (I've seen weirder crazes).
Chairman President Shinra
Director Dictator Heidegger
Director Bloody Scarlet
Director Professor Hojo
Director Reeve Tuesti
Director Greasy Palmer
That would make to much sense for a Final Fantasy game. Also Rufus would hate that.
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- Location
- Singapore
- Pronouns
- Singular They
Unrelated to almost everything, but this made me think about Hojo deciding to have his name changed to simply a symbol, viz The Professor Formerly Known As Hojo.
Which then made me recall that when I was looking up the historical Hojo clans (for Total War Shogun, if it matters), I learned that their clan emblem is "three dragonscales", which is represented by three triangles in a triangle formation. Which gamers might recognize as the Triforce symbol.
So I had this image of Hojo naming himself as the Triforce symbol, and people in this thread trying to speculate how he is connected in any way to Power/Wisdom/Courage, and Aerith/Zelda comparisons, and then I realized it's 4am and I should go to sleep.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Man, that gets into FF7's messy development stuff.
In different drafts of FF7's script, Sephiroth and Aerith were siblings, then exes, before finally settling on being foils for one another. From Nomura's notes, Tifa was originally the last Ancient (presumably why she was living in Nibelheim, right outside the mad science mansion), and Sephiroth had Vincent's design. Eventually, Tifa and Aerith were split off into two separate characters (probably to increase party diversity, although the idea of a mystic girl with sworn bodyguards would be reused later), with Tifa retaining the childhood friend role and Aerith retaining the Ancient role. Late in development, Aerith's romantic relationship with Sephiroth was altered so that she instead was in a relationship with Zack.
In the draft where Aerith and Sephiroth were siblings, Ilfana bore Sephiroth while in captivity, along with other SOLDIERS. Super gross, I understand why that was cut, and it also explains Hojo's weird breeding fetish in the final game.
In the draft where Aerith and Sephiroth were siblings, Ilfana bore Sephiroth while in captivity, along with other SOLDIERS. Super gross, I understand why that was cut, and it also explains Hojo's weird breeding fetish in the final game.
Egleris
Vagrant Dragon
- Location
- Italy
As mentioned by yourself and others, the narrative weight that "he's Hojo's son" adds to the story is so huge that it seems the most obvious reading.
Additionally, given my already expressed opinion on how many people seem to desperately want Sephiroth to be "cool" when in FFVII he's really NOT, it should be no surprise that it really feels to me like arguing in favor of "Vincent is Sephiroth's father!" is just another desperate attempt to make Sephiroth "cool" by having him be the soon of "at least he looks cool" Vincent, rather than "very much NOT cool" Hojo. Which is hilarious when the fact that Vincent really is a very clear declaration of "people who dress and act like this aren't cool, they're pathetic" is really not something FFVII is shy about saying. Not that this is necessarily my opinion, to be clear, just what the game (or at least its writers) very obviously believe.
So, both for narrative reasons and for personal preference reason, the fact that Hojo is Sephiroth's father was always an "oh, of course" moment for me. In fact, I was puzzled when I found, once I started reading FFVII fanfiction, how common making Vincent Sephiroth's father (which would then generally lead to redemption or salvation for Sephiroth) actually was.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
My take on 'no, Vincent is Sephiroth's father' ideas is that they are born of nothing more complex than an instinctive revulsion to the idea that this man
this man
this man
fucks
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I feel like Vincent the Vampire Man being Sephiroth's father is just a set up for a "dead beat dad" joke, though the idea of Sephiroth going through his whole messiah breakdown while his dad sleeps in the next room is pretty funny.
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- He/Him
If Henry Kissinger could get laid, then Hojo pulling it off isn't beyond the imagination.
Well, you still shouldn't imagine it, but for entirely different reasons.
Well, you still shouldn't imagine it, but for entirely different reasons.
Connelly
As useless as a penguin with mittens
- Location
- Salamanca, Spain
I can't recall if it's confirmed outright any any other part of the base game, but other media confirms Sephiroth is 10000% Hojo's own personal little enfant terrible. There's even a short story published where he's doing everything but wearing an "I <3 MY EVIL SON" t-shirt.
Guile
Having a really great time right now
I don't remember any textual evidence one way or the other, but I lean more towards Hojo Son because it's actually less awful. If he was Vincent's son, you kind of think 'Could he have been saved if Vincent gave a damn, tho?'
Like, your party member there was sulking while his son grew up a lab rat and child soldier. Vincent's good image has been damaged enough, thanks.
FF7R gives it a damn good try, at least.
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- Location
- Brittany, France
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The "President Shinra" thing isn't that weird to me, because President Shinra is very obviously the effective head of state of Migdar, a kind of "Corporate Monarch," and that's just how monarch names work.
It's most obvious with Japanese Emperors, what with FF7 being a Japanese game: Naruhito is Emperor of Japan and belongs to the Yamato Dynasty, but he's not "Naruhito Yamato." He's just Naruhito (although to the Japanese press he is currently specifically "His Majesty the Emperor" and never referred to by name).
The British monarchy is different, I think? "Mountbatten-Windsor" is their surname but you don't use it as a surname (unless you're the French press, who insist on referring to British monarchs as "Elizabeth Windsor" or "Charles Windsor.") Charles III in normal nomenclature is just "King Charles."
So to me it parses as totally coherent for President Shinra to be using "Shinra" as his "royal name" - if he had a surname before, it got erased from the historical record. He's just "Shinra," and by extention under his full honorific title, "President Shinra."
The only thing that makes that weird is Rufus. Because Rufus is Rufus Shinra instead of, like, Shinra II. It'd be like if Charles ascended to the throne and took on the name Charles Elizabeth. He throws a wrench in a very simple analogy.
It's most obvious with Japanese Emperors, what with FF7 being a Japanese game: Naruhito is Emperor of Japan and belongs to the Yamato Dynasty, but he's not "Naruhito Yamato." He's just Naruhito (although to the Japanese press he is currently specifically "His Majesty the Emperor" and never referred to by name).
The British monarchy is different, I think? "Mountbatten-Windsor" is their surname but you don't use it as a surname (unless you're the French press, who insist on referring to British monarchs as "Elizabeth Windsor" or "Charles Windsor.") Charles III in normal nomenclature is just "King Charles."
So to me it parses as totally coherent for President Shinra to be using "Shinra" as his "royal name" - if he had a surname before, it got erased from the historical record. He's just "Shinra," and by extention under his full honorific title, "President Shinra."
The only thing that makes that weird is Rufus. Because Rufus is Rufus Shinra instead of, like, Shinra II. It'd be like if Charles ascended to the throne and took on the name Charles Elizabeth. He throws a wrench in a very simple analogy.
It's weird to say but out of all the FF7R characters who got a glowup from the original, President Shinra is absolutely one. He doesn't get to shine much but his final confrontation with Barret actually had some charisma even though he starts the scene cringing and begging for his life.I don't remember any textual evidence one way or the other, but I lean more towards Hojo Son because it's actually less awful. If he was Vincent's son, you kind of think 'Could he have been saved if Vincent gave a damn, tho?'
Like, your party member there was sulking while his son grew up a lab rat and child soldier. Vincent's good image has been damaged enough, thanks.
FF7R gives it a damn good try, at least.
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P.R.E.S.I.D.E.N.T. Shinra. It's an acronym.
Percival Rutherford Eustace Simon Ignatius Dominguez Emmanuel Norton Tracy Shinra. It's a big family; he had a lot of uncles to be named after.
From the looks of it President Shinra is Fuhrer King Bradley decade or two after he removes the eye patch and his hair greyed. Or just a dye job. Maybe he decided he needed a new identity and went undercover.
I mean, we never see them in the same room so maybe they are the same guy, right?