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Let's Play Every Final Fantasy Game In Order Of Release [Now Finished: Final Fantasy Tactics]

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SerGregness said:
You may not like it, Omicron, but this is what peak performance looks like.
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Yeah, peak performance of a garbage fire, maybe.
SolipsistSerpent said:
I remember disliking Hojo when I played the game but this thread is definitely making him into one of my 'love to hate' characters.
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Zap Rowsdower said:
Non-spoiler Crisis Core Fun Fact:
All of the Soldiers First Class had fanclubs; everybody you interact with in person from the fan clubs were fangirls, although Zack can also receive news bulletins from said clubs that don't explicitly show the sender.

It is very heavily implied that the head of the Sephiroth fanclub ("Chairwoman H"), who includes extremely specific personal details about Sephiroth up to and including his bathing habits in said club news bulletins, is Hojo using an alias. Who, as this update reveals, is Sephiroth's dad. And apparently monitors his son's bathing and reveals details of it to the public.

Hojo is fractally eww; zooming in closer only reveals all new and terrifying in new ways kinds of eww.
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...hello darkness my old friend...
clockworkchaos said:
Sephiroth: Okay I can

1. Accept I'm human and Hojo is my father

or

2. Reject my humanity and side with the Alien out to destroy all life

-

Considering the choices can any of us say we would have done any differently?
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In light of the above?! Absolutely not. Hell, I'd bring about the apocalypse just to wipe out the planet if that was my history.
 
Omicron said:
Hojo is Sephiroth's biological dad.
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And it all makes sense now!

To echo other people, it makes a lot of sense Sephiroth went mad at this point. Man had the deck stacked against him from the beginning.

That said, it does neatliy explain why there is a genre of FF7 fics where a character goes and breaks into Shinra, rescues baby Sephiroth, and shoots Hojo. They never get very far, authors don't tend to think that far ahead, but you can quite easily see how that would stop... like 90% of everything bad in canon 7.
Nottheunmaker said:
So remember when I said Hojo getting worse wasn't a spoiler? That he'd get even worse?

This isn't then end of that.

He can still get worse baby.
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What are you talking about? This is clearly set up for Hojo's redemption arc that only becomes available if you have Vincent in the party as Hojo realises he lost his way, aiding the party before retiring to a beach on Costa Del Sol.
 
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...

...

...

......

Is Hojo a deliberate attempt to skewer the once-popular perception of the doctors who perpetuated various war crimes during WWII?

"The trains ran on time" is a famous meme from fascist Italy about how the brutality of the regime was balanced out by how it made things work. Except it didn't, of course, and the whole thing was a piece of propaganda fluff. There used to be similar ideas about the crimes committed in conjunction with the Holocaust, how the human experimentation and torture was terrible, but it did advance our scientific understanding. But that was full of it, too. By 1997 these ideas were being repealed for the absolute bunk they were, but it was a time 50 years removed from the events themselves and there was still plenty of belief in them. Some of the people who'd perpetuated them were still around, even - many having been pardoned by the American and Soviet governments in the name of getting their hands on that "data" for use in the coming cold war.

Hojo. He's of inordinately high rank in Shinra despite his blithering incompetence, and it turns out his successes in the scientific fields are largely stolen from his predecessor. He's bizarrely popular (especially with women) despite his greasiness. And as noted, he's by far the most Japanese-coded man in the Shinra lineup. We've been making fun of Hojo as the worst person to ever live throughout this LP, but is there a writer on the FF7 team screaming through time and space at us that "yes you jackasses, the Unit 731 asshole is a sleazy fucking idiot who blinds others by parading his false scientific greatness up and down the story, that's on purpose."

(In case you've gotten to November 2023 without learning about Unit 731...keep a barf bag handy if you look them up.)

It can't be an accident that every time we revisit Hojo in the narrative he's fucking up in some brand-new way, a human wrecking ball smashing his way through the environment, the history, the caster of characters one and all in the name of his supercilious ego. He's not developing understanding or furthering scientific knowledge, he's an Adult Swim cartoon character stapling a gerbil to a potato gun for SCIENCE!! Even with Vincent's backstory, the game seems all too happy to subvert the "cool edgy vampire" by shoving his dignity off a cliff and yelling cry me a river you fucking coward, maybe if you'd stood up a little sooner you wouldn't be a bastardization of science now on its way down.
 
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Kuja said:
It can't be an accident that every time we revisit Hojo in the narrative he's fucking up in some brand-new way, a human wrecking ball smashing his way through the environment, the history, the caster of characters one and all in the name of his supercilious ego.
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You make a very good argument. Unfortunately, you used this turn of phrase and inspired me.



I hope you're happy.
 
Yeah, as usual with every new appearance of Hojo, we can add another tally to the "why don't you just kill him?" column, this time with Vincent being the "you" in question. As I said in the past, Hojo is the least divisive character in Final Fantasy history, because everybody has the same feeling about him, those being "kill him with fire".

Omicron said:
You could honestly fit a whole prequel spin-off game in the narrative space of "Vincent leaves the basement, comes to grips with his monstrous side, starts listening to The Sisters of Mercy, and is eventually sealed in the basement, choosing not to resist because his actions have led him to believe he is a sinner unworthy of freedom.
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See, now that would have been a much better approach to a Dirge of Cerberus-like game. That's not what we got, sadly.

Also, as foamy said, if you spend some time fighting and go back to the cave, there's a consolation prize inside of it for having had to suffer through Vincent's backstory.
 
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Kuja said:
Is Hojo a deliberate attempt to skewer the once-popular perception of the doctors who perpetuated various war crimes during WWII?
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It's honestly a little difficult to tell, because while that analysis might be true, the way it's presented by the game is vague enough that it's also a valid reading to go "the problem with the war crimes is the person committing them", with the implicit "so change the person committing them to someone more competent and all will be fine", rather than "so don't commit war crimes".

Overall I'd say Hojo can be seen as an attempt to skewer the Evil Mad Scientist Getting Results perception, but I'm less confident that it's deliberate. If Gast hadn't had his crisis of conscience (however belated), would he be doing the same general things Hojo was doing, but more competently? Is it a systemic problem with Shinra's corporate culture and power? Especially given the other board members, who are not exactly decent people either.
 
foamy said:
I've said it before, I'm saying it now, and I know I'm gonna say it again:

Everything that happens in FF7 is Hojo's fault.
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Not just FF7, anything FF7 adjacent. Crisis Core, Advent Children, Dirge of Cerberus, Before Crisis… everything can be traced back to Hojo in three degrees or less.

Sounds like a fun party game. /s

Honestly now that Sora has completed his journey to become a Final Fantasy Character I would not be surprised if Hojo is responsible for some of KH4 plot
 
AHAHAH YES
Also, we might want a refresher about Vinny boy here:
Letter: I must get rid of all those that stand in the way of my research. Even that one from the Turks. I scientifically altered him and put him to sleep in the basement. If you want to find him, search the area. But… This is merely a game I thought of. It is not necessary for you to participate if you don't want to.
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Vincent
...To wake me from the nightmare

He throws off the lid.

Who is it!?

He sits up.

...Never seen you before. You must leave.

Cloud, Tifa, or Cid
You were having a nightmare.

Barret
I woke ya up. Ya outta be thankin' me.

Aeris
You'll dream about bad things if you sleep in a place like THIS.

Tifa
How bad was your dream?

Nanaki
...You don't look good.

Yuffie
Man, you really WERE having a bad dream! Even I feel bad!

Cait Sith
Aren't you glad you woke up?

Cid
The air's pretty heavy here. How can you sleep in a place like this?

Vincent
Hmph... a nightmare...? My long sleep has given me time to atone.

Cloud
What are you saying?

Tifa
What's he talking about...?

Cid
What the hell are you saying?

Vincent
I have nothing to say to strangers. Get out.
This mansion is the beginning of your nightmare.

Cloud
...you can say that again.

Tifa
...That's for sure.

Cid
...It's startin' to look that way!

Vincent
Hmm? What do you know?

Cloud, Tifa, or Cid
- Don't say a thing
- Talk about Sephiroth

Don't say a thing

Vincent
I see. Then, I'll return to my nightmare...
...What? More?

Cloud, Tifa, or Cid
- No, good night
- Tell him about Sephiroth

Talk about Sephiroth

Cloud talks about Sephiroth.

Cloud
Like you said, this mansion is the beginning of a nightmare.
No, it's not a dream, it's for real.
Sephiroth has lost his mind. He found the secrets hidden in this mansion...

Tifa
Just like you said, this mansion is the start of a nightmare...
No, not a dream... it's reality.
Sephiroth has lost his mind. He found the secrets hidden in this mansion...

Cid
It's like you said, the mansion's the beginning of a nightmare.
No, it's not a dream, it's the truth.
Sephiroth's gone nuts. He found a ton of secrets hidden in this mansion...

Vincent
Sephiroth!?

Vincent + Cloud, Tifa, or Cid
You know Sephiroth?

Vincent leaps from the coffin and lands on its edge.

Vincent
You start first.

Cloud gestures as he tells his story.

Cloud, Tifa, or Cid
...That's how it was.

Vincent
So Sephiroth knows he was created five years ago? And about the Jenova Project?
...He was missing, but has just recently reappeared.
He has taken many lives and is seeking the Promised Land.

* Note: Vincent's comment here is likely a translation error and should have been something like "So five years ago, Sephiroth learned that he had been created?"

Cloud, Tifa, or Cid
Now it's your turn.

Vincent
Sorry... I cannot speak.

Barret
Hey! You lyin' white-faced!

Aeris
That's dirty!

Tifa
Hmm... I'm disappointed.

Nanaki
What... you're serious?

Yuffie
Oh, that's okay. It was probably depressing anyway.

Cait Sith
Hey, that's not right---

Cid
Good! I'm not in the mood to hear long stories. Let's get the hell outta here!

Vincent
Hearing your stories, has added upon me yet another sin.
More nightmares shall come to me now, more than I previously had.

He gets back into the coffin.

Now... please leave.
...You're still here.

Cloud, Tifa or Cid
- Good night
- Who are you?

Good night

Nothing happens.

Who are you?

At least tell us your name.

Or, from Cid:

At least say your name.

Vincent
I was with... the Shinra Manufacturing Department in Administrative Research, otherwise known as--the Turks...
Vincent.

Cloud or Tifa
The Turks!?

Cid
Turks!?

Vincent
Formerly of the Turks.
I have no affiliation with Shinra now.
...And you?

Cloud
Cloud, formerly of SOLDIER.

Tifa
Tifa, formerly of the AVALANCHE.

Cid
Cid, formerly of the Space Program Department.

Vincent
You were also with Shinra...? Then do you know Lucrecia?

Or, to Tifa:

Ex-AVALANCHE...... Then you wouldn't know Lucrecia...

Cloud, Tifa, or Cid
Who?

Vincent
......Lucrecia.

Cloud and Tifa shake their heads.

Cid
No idea.

Vincent
The woman who gave birth to Sephiroth.

Cloud
...gave birth...?
Wasn't Jenova Sephiroth's mother?

Tifa or Cid
...gave birth...?
Isn't Jenova Sephiroth's mother?

Vincent
That isn't completely wrong, but just a theory.
He was born from a beautiful lady.
That lady was Lucrecia.
She was an assistant to Professor Gast of the Jenova Project. Beautiful... Lucrecia.

Cloud, Tifa, or Cid
...A human experiment?

Vincent
There was no way to cancel the experiment.
I couldn't stop her.
That was my sin.
I let the one I loved, the one I respected most, face the worst.

Barret
That why you started sleepin' in a box? Gimme a break!

Aeris
So your punishment was to sleep? That's... kinda weird.

Tifa
So the punishment was sleep? That's weird.

Nanaki
So you slept as punishment? Isn't that strange? That thinking...

Yuffie
OK. Boring story no. 1.

Cait Sith
You think that's punishing yourself? You're just sleeping.

Cid
You shouldn't sleep just because of that. Sleep?

Vincent lies back down.

Vincent
Let me sleep...

Cloud and the others start back down the hallway.

Vincent
Wait!
If I go with you will I meet Hojo?

Cloud
Dunno. But we're after him and Sephiroth. So, I guess sooner or later...

Tifa
Hmm, I don't know. But we're going after Hojo and Sephiroth. So, we might......

Cid
I dunno. But we're going after him and Sephiroth. So there's a good chance...

Vincent
Lucrecia...
All right. I've decided to go with you.

Barret
W, what?

Aeris
Sure is a quick change of heart. Huh?

Tifa
What? You're coming with us?

Nanaki
What?

Yuffie
Huh? Oh great just what I needed...

Cait Sith
What?

Cid
Hey, hold on sleepy. You're pretty damn pushy!

Vincent
Being a former Turks, I may be of help to you...

Cloud
All right, then.

Tifa
All right, I understand.

Cid
Alright then.
So, picture waking up from coma, and learning that your former GF planned fetus had become the worst.

Also, note his age from the manual: 27. Not counting his naptime, it would seem.

Omicron said:
If we go back inside the cave afterwards, Lucrecia isn't there anymore, the cave is empty.
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12 random encounters, then go back.
 
kairuf said:
Not just FF7, anything FF7 adjacent. Crisis Core, Advent Children, Dirge of Cerberus, Before Crisis… everything can be traced back to Hojo in three degrees or less.
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...If it wouldn't spoil anything for Omicron, please explain how Hojo leads to Don Corneo. Especially in the two degrees or less needed to make this true for his subordinates.
 
beowolf said:
...If it wouldn't spoil anything for Omicron, please explain how Hojo leads to Don Corneo. Especially in the two degrees or less needed to make this true for his subordinates.
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Who do you think Don Corneo bought Aps and Rapps from?
(We don't actually know, but it'd make sense for them to be custom made horrors)
 
Egleris said:
As I said in the past, Hojo is the least divisive character in Final Fantasy history, because everybody has the same feeling about him, those being "kill him with fire".
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Well. I don't think that's quite the case. Considering that I've seen unironically horny fanart of him by a Hojo fangirl in Tumblr… he's setting at least one person's loins on fire.
 
somewhatLazy said:
Let's be honest, setting people on fire to see if it makes them sexier is exactly the sort of half-assed experiment Hojo would run.
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No one can deny that.

The body count will be extensive and the results poorly documented. Hojo will be fine, of course.

Later, Hojo may be foiled by some kind of eternally burning man. Hojo will talk a lot about how things are going to plan. He will learn nothing.
 
beowolf said:
...If it wouldn't spoil anything for Omicron, please explain how Hojo leads to Don Corneo. Especially in the two degrees or less needed to make this true for his subordinates.
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Don Corneo wants the crown of "Most horrid person on Gaia" and knows that Hojo is the man to beat. /s

(The competition for second place is fire)

MiskWisk said:
Who do you think Don Corneo bought Aps and Rapps from?
(We don't actually know, but it'd make sense for them to be custom made horrors)
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How do you think he bought Aps and Rapps

Theory:
Don Corneo made his wealth and position off of providing Hojo bodies to experiment on.
 
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And of course Final Fantasy has done the "we forgive the war-crime "scientist" " bit themselves with Banana Mengele just a game ago so make of what you well. Depending on your prospective it either proves @Adloquium 's point or is evidence that someone in the FFVII team was uncomfortable with Cid the 6th and created Hojo as response. Or maybe both.
 
MysticSeer said:
And of course Final Fantasy has done the "we forgive the war-crime "scientist" " bit themselves with Banana Mengele just a game ago so make of what you well. Depending on your prospective it either proves @Adloquium 's point or is evidence that someone in the FFVII team was uncomfortable with Cid the 6th and created Hojo as response. Or maybe both.
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It's an interesting contrast, isn't it. I was thinking about it when writing my post but forgot to go in on that. The perils of posting at 2am.

FF6 gives Cid Mengele an immediate come-to-Hydaelyn moment upon meeting him with an "oh gosh I put my daughter in danger I'm sorry I let Kefka bully me into doing Crimes" and the camera just sorta sliiiiiiiiides away from the gulf of human/esper wreckage we had to wade through to get to him, putting the evil on the dynamic duo of Gestahl & Kefka. In regard to FF6's deliberate theatricality, I can give some credit to Cid's face turn...and the game does rather karmically punish him later on (players catching the biggest fish notwithstanding).

Then a few years later, in comes Hojo, The Guy Who Is Responsible For Everything And Proud Of It. And it's not just a reversal in character - in FF6 Cid's adopted daughter Celes is narratively his lifeline, snapping him to his senses and caring for him as he lays dying. In FF7, Sephiroth is Hojo's plaything, a lifelong human experiment that, if anything, gets egged on by Hojo to greater atrocity. In retrospect it makes for a hell of an about-face.

Adloquium said:
It's honestly a little difficult to tell, because while that analysis might be true, the way it's presented by the game is vague enough that it's also a valid reading to go "the problem with the war crimes is the person committing them", with the implicit "so change the person committing them to someone more competent and all will be fine", rather than "so don't commit war crimes".

Overall I'd say Hojo can be seen as an attempt to skewer the Evil Mad Scientist Getting Results perception, but I'm less confident that it's deliberate. If Gast hadn't had his crisis of conscience (however belated), would he be doing the same general things Hojo was doing, but more competently? Is it a systemic problem with Shinra's corporate culture and power? Especially given the other board members, who are not exactly decent people either.
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I think the answer to the Gast question is in the story of FF7 itself, in that people who have a crisis of conscience don't rise to the top of an organization like Shinra - they get the fuck out, run and hide and find a bolthole to vanish into. At best they become a Domino, working to undermine the system from inside, at worst a Reeve, someone who really seems the type who thought he could Change Things if he worked his way up the ladder and who nowadays probably kills most of a whiskey bottle over the course of an evening before collapsing onto his office couch at 1:30 in the morning.

I think it's worth noting that one of the most iconic moments of horror in FF7 has little to do with Hojo - the dropping of the Sector 7 plate is masterminded by old man Shinra* himself and carried out by the Turks. It's a moment the game kind of forgets about over time, as Shinra soon gets made into a Sephy-kabob and the Turks go on to become Team Rocket for the rest of the story but...yeah, that happened. Hundreds or maybe thousands of people crushed to death because Shinra wanted to get rid of a single-digit number of people. Shinra's board of execs is all in on the mass murder, except for Reeve whose BAC is probably above 5% by now and has to be thrown into his chair by Tseng and Elena.

(*= has this guy still not been given a first name after 20 years?? Fuck it I'm gonna start calling him Bill Shinra or something.)
 
This discussion has been hilarious (and painful) but, actually, let me segue into a related topic.

While I was playing through this scene, I briefly thought, "the timeline is so ambiguous that it's not clear if Lucrecia broke up with Vincent, started a relationship with Hojo, and then became pregnant, or if she had already been pregnant (possibly not knowing she was) by the time she and Hojo became an item - that is, if Sephiroth is Lucrecia and Hojo's son, or Lucrecia and Vincent's son.

I ended up deciding that the most natural read of the scene was that he was Hojo's, and after thinking about it for a bit and coming up with that whole "Gast vs Hojo/Aerith vs Sephiroth" angle at the end, I feel pretty strongly that this is my read.

With that said, it's been brought to my attention that the "Vincent is Sephiroth's father" is a relatively common interpretation of events? I obviously can't go and look it up without risking spoilers for what remains of the game, but having asked around it does seem like there has never been an explicit, canonical clarification of who is Sephiroth's father, so it's up to the reader's interpretation which one is true, and Vincent does seem to have some numbers on his side in that particular match.

I'm curious what are my readers' take on this particular topic?
 
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