Solarstream
It's all in the cards
- Location
- Zombie World
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X][JER] No
[X][TRA] Yes
[X][TRA] Yes
Legacy of The Tenth Crusade - A Divergences of Darkness Nation Quest [Finished]
- Thread starter Fission Battery
- Start date
- Alt. History
Eh, I suppose, though by joining Egypt Jerusalem will have the same rights as any other city in the country, once you get to enact democratic and revolutionary reforms. Jointly administering it by all members of the UAR would be kind of stripping Jerusalem of their rights to assembly. They could vote for Egyptian members on the city council but then the rest of the seats would be given to other countries. You can see why that'd be a bit of an issue for people?
Side note it's safe to say a lot of the old legal system is being swept aside by Nadir off screen and major reforms are being enacted back in Egypt. I didn't know where to put it during the war or this section. I definitely want a vote about reforms after the wars are done so it feels impactful.
- Location
- New York
[X][JER] No
[X][TRA] Yes
If we can avoid a multiway brawl for Jerusalem in the next war, we should do so. The monarchies and the Islamists had no sense of subtlety here. You would think that they would try to be subtle to avoid offending some of the powerful non-Muslims in the room including the Prime Minister of Egypt but no. They show off their plans for a Muslim only Jerusalem to everybody to see.
Arab Economic Unions have not been very successful in OTL because Arab states tend to focus on exports to the outside world over trade in the Arab world and that still applies here but it will probably not hurt us to set one up regardless.
The Conference was not completely unproductive. We did manage to codify the previously secret agreements with Turkey and Iran publicly. The Conference was overall a failure, and we are headed to war. Aside for the obvious failures, we did not manage to decide what to do with the Crusader POWs and the Southern Italian colonists which was on the Conference's to do list. Let us hope that the POWs do not break out and cause trouble during the Arab Brothers' War and that nobody feels the need to execute the POWs to prevent a breakout either.
We have a half-baked plot to murder Khouri and the Red Guard officers. It was probably the remnants of a larger Islamist plot to strike at Socialist influence in the Egyptian military that was disrupted by the removal of the Islamist officers. The conduct of the Islamist officers during the Sinai Crisis gave us a suitable publicly presentable reason to remove them. The attempted assassination of Khouri, the modern Saladin, by an Islamist soldier and the attempts by the Islamist leadership to falsely claim that Khouri was dead and to pin the blame on the Copts is a good publicly presentable reason to do a larger crackdown on the Islamists than the one before. Khouri will probably be upset with us that we didn't outright purge the Islamists before he ended up losing a kidney and some of his officers but now, we have a lot more political cover to do so. The Islamists will be no longer respected war heroes in the eyes of the general public and the military but are instead traitors and murderers.
[X][TRA] Yes
If we can avoid a multiway brawl for Jerusalem in the next war, we should do so. The monarchies and the Islamists had no sense of subtlety here. You would think that they would try to be subtle to avoid offending some of the powerful non-Muslims in the room including the Prime Minister of Egypt but no. They show off their plans for a Muslim only Jerusalem to everybody to see.
Arab Economic Unions have not been very successful in OTL because Arab states tend to focus on exports to the outside world over trade in the Arab world and that still applies here but it will probably not hurt us to set one up regardless.
The Conference was not completely unproductive. We did manage to codify the previously secret agreements with Turkey and Iran publicly. The Conference was overall a failure, and we are headed to war. Aside for the obvious failures, we did not manage to decide what to do with the Crusader POWs and the Southern Italian colonists which was on the Conference's to do list. Let us hope that the POWs do not break out and cause trouble during the Arab Brothers' War and that nobody feels the need to execute the POWs to prevent a breakout either.
We have a half-baked plot to murder Khouri and the Red Guard officers. It was probably the remnants of a larger Islamist plot to strike at Socialist influence in the Egyptian military that was disrupted by the removal of the Islamist officers. The conduct of the Islamist officers during the Sinai Crisis gave us a suitable publicly presentable reason to remove them. The attempted assassination of Khouri, the modern Saladin, by an Islamist soldier and the attempts by the Islamist leadership to falsely claim that Khouri was dead and to pin the blame on the Copts is a good publicly presentable reason to do a larger crackdown on the Islamists than the one before. Khouri will probably be upset with us that we didn't outright purge the Islamists before he ended up losing a kidney and some of his officers but now, we have a lot more political cover to do so. The Islamists will be no longer respected war heroes in the eyes of the general public and the military but are instead traitors and murderers.
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Regency
PFP by vanathema (previously yubishines)
- Location
- Morioh Town, Mt. Ebbot
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Oh right, oops.
A less controversial suggestion would probably be Jerusalem's metro area, and eventually Makkah's and Madinah al-Munawwarah's metro areas, as direct sub-federation members equal to other UAR members (of which I prefer Maghreb/West Arab and Mashriq/East Arab as the other two members). due to those three cities' historical and international significance
Anyways, vooting
[X][JER] No
[X][TRA] Yes
Edit: corrections
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[X][JER] No
[X][TRA] Yes
[X][TRA] Yes
[X][JER] No
[X][TRA] Yes
[X][TRA] Yes
- Location
- The observable universe
Islamists don't do subtlety or long term thinking at all, observe them assasinating Sadat for camp David when Sadat was their key ally who practically invited them back to power and freed most of them from prison, or observe the Morsi regime literally banning women in 2012 and outright airing plans to bomb Ethiopia on live television
- Location
- his hidden lair
When you have to recover a city from being at war, and all the damage of massive firestorms and chemical weapon releases into a major population center... The Council isn't going to be a bunch of super villains, the first priority is going to be the thousands of people dosed with chemical weapons and repairing the damage from the fire and bombings.
I don't know about you... but I'm confident they're going to have their hands full.
Regency
PFP by vanathema (previously yubishines)
- Location
- Morioh Town, Mt. Ebbot
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Considering the slant they take against monuments & historical sites not in complicance with their extremely narrow interpretation of Islamic scripture and jurispudence, and the likes of Salaam's plans of demolitions (as stated in this very update), I think it's a legitimate worry that they'd at the very least neglect the damaged sites which are against Islamist interest should they gain majority. Which they would by number of countries. At worst they'll use the cover of supervision to actively damage those sites while helping those not explicitly against Islamist & royalist interests - which would likely cause a pseudo-battle over Jerusalem between our (intended to be) humanitarian personnel & theirs as we scramble to stop them.
Even if they only do malicious neglect of sites & peoples they deem in opposition, the upcoing war would very likely cause an escalation that could mean a monarchist enroachment behind the lines thru the Arab League-adminitered Jerusalem.
Tbh I'm not opposed for the actual post-war rebuilding of Jerusalem in particular being a joint Arab League effort *if* we win the Arab War and stack the deck in our favor thru the League being dominated by UAR members & allies. The timing is sadly unfavorable for such a joint rebuilding considering the present Islamist royalist vs socialist republican split.
You mean all those Egyptian citizens they're going to expel from the city for "safety concerns?" Those people? Why would they take care of them? The first priority is shipping them out of the city. Jerusalem's been bulldozed, leveled, fortified, and ruined by Crusader occupation and bombing. Any historic site they didn't like was torn down, a lot of neighbourhoods were torn down and inhabitants expelled or killed, so the only civilians there were locals forced into slums to serve the massive garrison. People in slums around the area likely suffered from the toxic fumes.
Except the majority of Jerusalem's inhabiitants don't seem to be muslims. We don't have hard numbers (as far as I can remember) but when we bombarded the city we got a brief description of what Jerusalem looks like. There are no sinagogues or mosques left, whole neighbourhoods were leveled to build fortification in its place... The Kingdom of Jerusalem clearly tried to make Jerusalem a fort-city and they are not about to invite disloyal elements (read: muslims and jews) to their fort.
It is safe to assume that they took advantage of leveling the neighbourhoods to displace "undesirables" (or outright murder them) and whoever was left was a minority when compared to the settler population. We can safely bet on the fact that, if given half a chance, they will try to repair all that damage by using all the tactics the crusaders did (but targeted to jews and christians instead of jews and muslims).
Hell, they have even attempted a campaing of repression against the Copts. Salaam just did the pro gamer move of enciting racial and religious tensions after we just finished a war. Islamists (Salaam, the medieval Caliph and company) don't seem to truly grasp the fact that every coin we put on solving (or "solving") racial tension is a coin we can't put on bettering everyone's lives.
It is safe to assume that they took advantage of leveling the neighbourhoods to displace "undesirables" (or outright murder them) and whoever was left was a minority when compared to the settler population. We can safely bet on the fact that, if given half a chance, they will try to repair all that damage by using all the tactics the crusaders did (but targeted to jews and christians instead of jews and muslims).
Hell, they have even attempted a campaing of repression against the Copts. Salaam just did the pro gamer move of enciting racial and religious tensions after we just finished a war. Islamists (Salaam, the medieval Caliph and company) don't seem to truly grasp the fact that every coin we put on solving (or "solving") racial tension is a coin we can't put on bettering everyone's lives.
Damn it, why can't they be normal and not plot eye-for-an-eye-esque shenanigans.
- Location
- his hidden lair
So... these people, only some of whom are expecting a war with Egypt in the near future, sitting on a council where Egypt and several of its allies sit... are going to forcibly expel every single Egyptian in the city, while surrounded by Egyptian armed forces because what? If you're going to present the Council as fundamentally nothing more than a vehicle for mustache twirling villains than of course it, like everything that isn't us is wrong and amoral.
I'm just baffled how anyone would think forcible population expulsion as an enclave while surrounded by the people you're expelling, who are more militarily powerful than you, and to whom the council is nominally in part composed of works. There's literally no reason for the Egyptian council member to simply not say 'You're violating the sovereignty and rights of our citizens and the citizens of Jerusalem- Egypt can no longer recognize this council as legitimate'. Tell me how these are real nations with real motivations and logic behind them because that looks a lot like a pile of straw because historically speaking, internationally administrated regions like this tread lightly precisely so they don't have members throw tantrums and start talking about military intervention when their interests are outright attacked.
Cause frankly, if this vote is literally to shout down or not shout down a hamfisted attempt for joint 'Arab' rule so the reactionaries can pack it - its irrelevant and never needed to be put to a vote. I was assuming y'know... that this would include such arab nations like Morocco, and Maghreb who might frown on a policy of absolute religious purges given they likely have Christian minorities that aren't being exterminated and that would alone bring the council to 4 v 5 on the issue (and 3 of the against would be the stronger and far more industrialized powers whom the council truly depends on for legitimacy). Threatening or bribing someplace like Funj into abstaining should be relative peanuts by that point. And given it's Maghreb, the constitutional monarchy liable to go socialist in the next decade who proposed this, I assumed the option was more than a tacit encouragement of religious extermination and that balancing relations might matter more.
Okay, wait, back up, the comment chain was about Nejd's bloc exerting influence on a council running Jerusalem. I said they'd push for extreme stuff if given the opportunity. Give them an inch and they'll take a mile type of thing. The entire point of establishing joint administration over Jerusalem would be ceding Egyptian sovereignty over it to the Arab League. That's the most extreme scenario though, and I'll admit it fits giving Hejaz full control over the city better than an international council. Nejd would shit up council proceedings for the short period it was involved.
Obviously war is about to break out so its a bit of a moot point that they won't get to exert their influence over it. Afterwards the only members are likely to be part of the UAR, which at that point the joint administration becomes kind of pointless.
- Location
- France
- Pronouns
- She/They
No real point in giving them a foothold if we're going to war is there.
One thing I don't really understand is why we expect Iraq is going to be able to sit out the conflagration and just leave the Arab League if we win and the socialism in it turn them off. Don't they see where this is going and won't they just join Nejd's war?
One thing I don't really understand is why we expect Iraq is going to be able to sit out the conflagration and just leave the Arab League if we win and the socialism in it turn them off. Don't they see where this is going and won't they just join Nejd's war?
Vote closed
- Location
- New York
@Fission Battery When will the North-South line and the Aswan Low Dam megaprojects finish again? I believe the industrial projects and the Tatarstan aid sped up the megaprojects two turns. I think that the North-South line will be finished soon if the war mobilization did not affect the construction.
For a man that seems relatively politically savvy until recently, why is King Harroun so determined to die and risk everything achieved so far over the point of restoring the Yemeni monarchy? He has marriage ties to the exiled Yemeni royals but plenty of reigning kings have hosted and intermarried into exiled royal houses without ever actually pressing their relatives' claims in history. The Arab Republic of Yemen is a potential threat and a possible source of revolution against the monarchies of Arabia but the King's efforts to get rid of President Nagi is antagonizing the newly independent Egypt which is a much bigger threat than Yemen. All of previous attempts to get the Egyptian leadership to abandon Yemen failed and it should have been clear that Egypt was not going to change its mind on the matter. Recognizing the status quo in Yemen and arguing that conquering the monarchies would be too costly for it to be worthwhile for the Arab socialist bloc was the only viable way to start negotiating a partition plan offer that Egypt might seriously consider as an alternative to war with the monarchist bloc. So why he did not do that? Victory disease? A lot of faith in his Entente backers?
For a man that seems relatively politically savvy until recently, why is King Harroun so determined to die and risk everything achieved so far over the point of restoring the Yemeni monarchy? He has marriage ties to the exiled Yemeni royals but plenty of reigning kings have hosted and intermarried into exiled royal houses without ever actually pressing their relatives' claims in history. The Arab Republic of Yemen is a potential threat and a possible source of revolution against the monarchies of Arabia but the King's efforts to get rid of President Nagi is antagonizing the newly independent Egypt which is a much bigger threat than Yemen. All of previous attempts to get the Egyptian leadership to abandon Yemen failed and it should have been clear that Egypt was not going to change its mind on the matter. Recognizing the status quo in Yemen and arguing that conquering the monarchies would be too costly for it to be worthwhile for the Arab socialist bloc was the only viable way to start negotiating a partition plan offer that Egypt might seriously consider as an alternative to war with the monarchist bloc. So why he did not do that? Victory disease? A lot of faith in his Entente backers?
North-South Line finishes Summer 1919, so this turn, and Aswan Low Dam finishes Summer 1920. Tatarstan sped it up by 1 turn. The war did not seriously affect construction. The industrial actions taken before helped cushion the blow from raising the reservists.
King Harroun is motivated by fear. I think that's far to say. President Nagi is the Savoir of Mecca when he drove away an Aragonese army during the Tenth Crusade. Nagi's extremely popular among the common people and now Egypt's got its own rising star with Khouri. King Harroun had been counting on Levant's larger, more experienced and mechanized forces to weaken Egypt's army and stall it. Nejd then would have claimed glory for pushing into Levant first while Egypt was stuck on the defensive, then negotiated from a position of strength post war. That did not happen.
Egypt walked into Levant before Nejd's coalition army could reach the border. It did well, but it didn't get the glory for itself. Nejd's also dealing with unrest in the gulf states that it conquered when Spain's empire collapsed. Ba'athism is popular among the revolutionaries and many chant Nagi's name in the hopes of joining their revolts together. King Harroun also doesn't trust Hakim, so he thinks any deal reached with Egypt will be undermined immediately.
It's kind of a grim nihilism of seeing the writing on the wall and hoping war now will cause enough chaos to stall Egypt, if not potentially throw it back and weaken its bloc of allies. He doesn't expect Egypt to peacefully demobilize and go back to its side of the border, which in a way kind of guarantees that there'd be a war.
Also do people want a vote on how to handle POWs and settler population? Some of the leadership managed to flee ahead of the Arab armies and evacuate to Cyprus, but the bulk of the settlers are in Jaffa and Acre. They fled north as Egypt's army advanced. Italy doesn't want them. Aragon might want them, though it doesn't have the budget to handle them well. 200k to 300k South Italian Christian fundamentalists aren't exactly an appealing population.... Actually Granada might want them.
Well figuring out what to do with them does sound like an interesting thing to debate about, but I have concerns that it will delay the update or something.
I suppose there is letting them sort it out for themselves and letting become refugees scattered to the winds. The Sicilian Partisans will like to try to recruit from them and start sending people back to Sicily, which would likely need to be smuggled in since Italy doesn't want a bunch of militant nationalists in the area.
Voting on this issue (the settlers and the POWs) would be interesting. The only question I have is on this fact:
Are all settlers fundamentalists? The Sicilian Resistance (their willingness to pact with Egypt) gave me hope that, at least, some of them were not.
Honestly, if it comes to a vote the option that I would likely go for is something along the lines of letting them live their lives with a possible check to make sure they wouldn't be doing terrorist shenanigans the moment they are set free.
- Location
- Somewhere in the area
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
If they aren't new arrivals (as in, within a month before the war), all the settlers have participated in the brutal apartheid and genocidal policies of the Crusader State. This was illustrated in detail in the sidestory specifically focused on the crusader state.
They cannot be allowed to remain in the Levant, not just for the safety of the native inhabitants, but for their own safety as well. We are about to go to war with the Arab Monarchies, we will not be able to effectively police both groups to prevent reprisal killings from spiraling out of control while also fighting what is shaping up to be a multi-front war.
They cannot be allowed to remain in the Levant, not just for the safety of the native inhabitants, but for their own safety as well. We are about to go to war with the Arab Monarchies, we will not be able to effectively police both groups to prevent reprisal killings from spiraling out of control while also fighting what is shaping up to be a multi-front war.
There's definitely people that aren't committed fundamentalists, but the system benefits them and a lot set up small farms off stolen land. They all settled in Levant in the last ten to five years. The nature of settler colonialism kind of pits the settlers against the locals resisting colonization and creating a system of antagonism. There's a lot of settlers that don't want to remain there now that they've lost and want to leave before the any reprisal killings can kick off. The diehards that want to retake Levant are trying to wage an insurgency with little success, fled to Cyprus, or are malding and seething. Aragon's sphere has effectively collapsed by this point. There's nobody that wants to take up their mantle.
- Location
- The observable universe
Way I see it in order to prevent a brutal insurgency or the settlers aiding invaders their political and economic power needs to be broken completely.
For starters we simply offer that any who wish to leave will recieve a ticket for a destination of their choosing provided its feasible, as for those who stay it will be announced that all land grants, claims and sales during colonisation are null and void and that those settlers who wish to remain will have to negotiate with the original owners or their next in kin to either buy the land at a real fair price or to vacate and be resettled elsewhere in the UAR should the owners refuse payment , all mediated by a commission we create solely for this purpose. If there is no one to negotiate with then the commission will directly handle the matter of fair land payments and set a tax whose proceeds will go to aid in rebuilding shattered Arab communities and/or helping Italians who wish to live and work in other areas of the UAR adjust.
For starters we simply offer that any who wish to leave will recieve a ticket for a destination of their choosing provided its feasible, as for those who stay it will be announced that all land grants, claims and sales during colonisation are null and void and that those settlers who wish to remain will have to negotiate with the original owners or their next in kin to either buy the land at a real fair price or to vacate and be resettled elsewhere in the UAR should the owners refuse payment , all mediated by a commission we create solely for this purpose. If there is no one to negotiate with then the commission will directly handle the matter of fair land payments and set a tax whose proceeds will go to aid in rebuilding shattered Arab communities and/or helping Italians who wish to live and work in other areas of the UAR adjust.