Lands of Red and Gold

[Estro]

So, the name was given, one that apparently will stand the test of time. Nice.

 

[The Sandman]

This does mean that OTL Antarctica will probably be called Australia instead, which would quite confusing to any crosstime explorers.

 

[Estro]

This does mean that OTL Antarctica will probably be called Australia instead, which would quite confusing to any crosstime explorers.

Click to shrink...

I mean, both names are valid for Antarctica as it's southern and it's opposite the north pole, so it might still get named as we know.

 

[Zam]

A super cool and fascinating post!

I really loved the opening, you did an excellent job setting the mood, tone, conveying the information and painting a vivid picture of the locale, its people and the politics!

I really, really enjoyed the cultural and languages exchanges, not just over one layer, but a minimum of three, it was amazing and fascinating to see, Jerimbee is an excellent translator and everyone else came across quite well, as well. Love the details about the differences in the cities, really nice stuff!

 

[Jared]

So, the name was given, one that apparently will stand the test of time. Nice.

Click to shrink...

Yes, the English name for Land of Gold came after the English visited a land that was full of... gold.

This does mean that OTL Antarctica will probably be called Australia instead, which would quite confusing to any crosstime explorers.

Click to shrink...

I mean, both names are valid for Antarctica as it's southern and it's opposite the north pole, so it might still get named as we know.

Click to shrink...

The use of the name Antarctica for the southern regions of the globe goes back to at least 350 BC from Aristotle, and references to the polus antarcticus to mean the South Pole go back to the first or second century AD from Roman authors. Either name is quite plausible. While I haven't made a definite decision yet, there's a strong temptation to go for an allohistorical double entendre by calling it Australia.

I really loved the opening, you did an excellent job setting the mood, tone, conveying the information and painting a vivid picture of the locale, its people and the politics!

I really, really enjoyed the cultural and languages exchanges, not just over one layer, but a minimum of three, it was amazing and fascinating to see, Jerimbee is an excellent translator and everyone else came across quite well, as well. Love the details about the differences in the cities, really nice stuff!

Click to shrink...

Glad you liked it. Multiple cultural exchanges are always fun, if challenging to write about at times.

 

[Zam]

Glad you liked it. Multiple cultural exchanges are always fun, if challenging to write about at times.

Click to shrink...

You do an excellent job of it if that helps

 

[ThePoarter]

Since I was banned from Alternate History I'll ask several questions here:

• How will the frontier wars likely play out here?
• What has changed for the Ottoman Empire in this world?
• How far do Aboriginal Australians trade or interact with the rest of the world here?

 

[Jared]

Lands of Red and Gold #40: The Christmas Spirit

This is a slightly more light-hearted look at the future of the LoRaG-verse. This was originally posted in time for the festive season. This kind of Christmas (or Easter, or Halloween, or other holiday) special post should not be treated as entirely canonical.

--

Taken from a discussion thread posted on the allohistory.com message board.
Note: all dates are in the Gregorian calendar. All message times are listed in what would be the equivalent of North American Eastern Standard Time.

Thread Title: AH Challange: Dual state North America

*

Original Post

From: The Last Gunfighter
Time: 24 December, 9:35 PM

Got a new challenge for you folks. This is a challange inspired buy a novella I'm working on.

The basic sceanrio is that North America must be wholly divided into two great powers: an Anglophone power in the north and east, and a Hispanophone power in the south and west.

These too great states must be the recognised sovereign states for the entirety of North America. There can be small autonomous regions and formal dependencies if you like, but de jure sovereignty has two reside with the two great powers. No protectorates, satellite states, or corporate states allowed.

More, the two states must be predominately English and Spanish speaking, respectively. The sole official language for the nations as a whole must be English or Spanish. It is acceptable to have relatively small minorities who speak other languages – Dutch, French, Swedish, Nahuatl, Congxie, whatever – and those languages can even be official languages of subnational regions. But no single linguistic minority can from more than 10% of the population of either nation. At least 80% of the people in each nation much speak the majority language as their sole native language.

The border between the dual states can be flexible depending on your chosen divergence, but it must includ the Rockies for much of their length. The north-south portion of the border should be somewhere around the southern extremities of the Rockies, or a bit further south than that. Maybe a river border, say the Red River [1], maybe the Rio Neuces, or at a pinch the Rio Bravo [Rio Grande]. Or you can use a border determined by settlement or military division, but it shouldn't be any further south than the Rio Bravo.

In tems of population, industrial capacity, political structure or other demographics, you can pick pretty much whatever you want. But thw two great powers need to be both stable enough and wealthy enough to be effective geopolitical rivals – one can't dominate the other.

The divergence date must be no earlier than 23 April 1529, ie after the Treaty of Saragossa ratified the division of the globe into Spanish and Portuguese zones. Ideally the diveregence should be after 1753 – the later the better, as far as I'm concerned.

Have at it, folks!

*

From: Hasta la Vista
Time: 24 December, 9:42 PM

What are the borders of North America?

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From: Patrician
Time: 24 December, 9:44 PM

What about Greenland?

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From: The Last Gunfighter
Time: 24 December, 9:54 PM

@ Hasta La Vista and Patrician

Good call, folks!

For these purposes, North America includes all of the mainland of the continent from the Arctic to as far south as, well, I'd prefer it to stretch as far as the Isthmus of Panama. I suppose a lesser challenge would be to have North America defined as ending somewhere no further north than the Isthmus of Tehuantepec.

I don't care what happens to Greenland or the Caribbean islands. They can be part of either of the dual states, still colonies or dependencies of European powers, or even independent micro-nations. It doesn't matter. (Althgouh I'd love to hear how Greenland could be part of the Spanish great power!)

*

From: Christo Columbo
Time: 24 December, 10:12 PM

@ TLG

Is this novella going to be part of a series? It'd be great to see this setting as part of a broader literary universe like R.R. Floyd's "Hammer of Gold" novels - both series, and the follow-ons. I loooove those books. Favourite moment: when the Atjuntja armies bring Shah Jahan himself for appeasement at the House of Pain. Allohistory needs more writers like him!

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From: Patrician
Time: 24 December, 10:17 PM

Erm, Floyd is a woman. Ruth Roxanne, I believe her initials stand for.

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From: Christo Columbo
Time: 24 December, 10:22 PM

Patrician, are you serious? That doesn't get mentioned in the "about the author" section.

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From: The Last Gunfighter
Time: 24 December, 10:24 PM

@Columbine

Have to get the novella finished and sold first before I can think about a whole series.

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From: Patrician
Time: 24 December, 10:27 PM

Deadly serious. She just uses her initials since male readers are less likely to buy from authors with female first names.

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From: The Last Gunfighter
Time: 25 December, 7:06 AM

Come on, doesn't anyone have any ideas?

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From: Hats
Time: 25 December, 7:21AM

In two words: im-possible.

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From: Kumgatu the Bold
Time: 25 December, 7:26 AM

Originally written by The Last Gunfighter:
> The basic sceanrio is that North America must be wholly divided into two great
> powers: an Anglophone power in the north and east, and a Hispanophone power in
> the south and west.

Partner, not going to happen. Even as few as four sovereign nations in North America is major-implausible territory. Three is space-cuckoo land or wish-fulfillment, take your pick. Two is who rolled the dream grass [cannabis] into your klinsigar?

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From: Hasta la Vista
Time: 25 December, 7:28 AM

Whether North America is defined as ending in Tehuantepec or Panama won't really change things much. Holding that part together is reasonably straightforward. Its the western coast further north which you need to worry about.

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From: The Last Gunfighter
Time: 25 December, 7:41 PM

@ Hasta La Vista

So hwo woudl you keep that part of the Hispanophone great power?

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From: The Last Gunfighter
Time: 25 December, 7:46 AM

@ Hats and Boldie

Try to be more constructive, folks! This is a challange. It's not meant to be easy, but help me find a way.

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From: Hats
Time: 25 December, 7:53AM

Originally written by The Last Gunfighter:
> Try to be more constructive, folks! This is a challange. It's not meant to
> be easy, but help me find a way.

Partner, threads on two- or three- or even one-nation North America come up a lot. They get shot down just as quickly as they deserve. Look them up in the search engine; that's what it's there for.

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From: Kumgatu the Bold
Time: 25 December, 8:01 AM

Originally written by The Last Gunfighter:
> Try to be more constructive, folks! This is a challange. It's not meant to
> be easy, but help me find a way.

Not my job to make the impossible happen, partner. You want to make it work, you find a way. Just don't be surprised if you're shot down in flames when you try.

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From: The Last Gunfighter
Time: 25 December, 8:09 AM

@ Hats and Boldie

If you cant say something helpful, just stay out of this thread, hey?

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From: Hats
Time: 25 December, 8:18 AM

TLG, since you're clearly too illiterate to work out how to use the search engine, let me give you a quick-and-dirty summary of why it wouldn't happen.

During colonial times, everyone wanted a piece of North America. No single European power could defeat all of the others without provoking a general European war. Everyone was too concerned with the balance of power to allow one nation to come out on top in Europe. That always applied to divisions of colonial territory after European wars, too. Colonial borders could get adjusted, and even the odd colony fully handed over, but not on the scale required to divide all North America in half.

And by the time independence came, separate identities were too well-established in North America for the nations to unite.

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From: Kumgatu the Bold
Time: 25 December, 8:28 AM

Originally written by Hats:
> And by the time independence came, separate identities were too
> well-established in North America for the nations to unite.

Truth, Hats.

Just to add to that, even colonies by the one power would find it quite difficult to unite when they had been administered separately for so long. To pick the most obvious example, England had lots of colonies in North America, but they didn't all join together.

Some did unite, of course, both before and after independence, and maybe a few more could in an allohistory. But only if they weren't too far apart or too disparate in their culture and governance. For instance, can you imagine Alleghania and New England uniting even if Tigeria wasn't in the way?

Of course, The Last Goober can't seem to figure that out.

*

From: The Last Gunfighter
Time: 25 December, 8:29 AM

@ Hats

Just because your lingo is Hats doesn't mean that you should talk through it!

This is allohistory, not fixed history. Just because something turned out one way in our history doesnt mean that ith as to work out the same way if the wheel of time was given another spin.

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From: The Last Gunfighter
Time: 25 December, 8:36 AM

@ Boldie

Stop thinking so fixed-historically! Given who you picked your lingo from, I'd have thought you would be more courageous about thinking in new ways.

Don't you think that if, say, Tigeria fell to the English early enough, that there would be more commonality among the northern and southern English colonies?

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From: Guido the Guide
Time: 25 December, 8:48 AM

Be nice, everyone. This is Christmas. Save your fights for your family, not fellow AH.commers.

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From: Kumgatu the Bold
Time: 25 December, 8:59 AM

Originally written by Guido the Guide:
> Be nice, everyone. This is Christmas.


I'm a Plirite, partner. I don't care about Christmas.

If Goober is going to make stupid pronouncements or ask for space-cuckoo scenarios, I'm going to call him on it, regardless of which day it is.

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From: Hats
Time: 25 December, 9:04 AM

Originally written by The Last Gunfighter:
> Just because your lingo is Hats doesn't mean that you should talk through it!

In the spirit of the season, and given that a guide has already warned you about it, I'll ignore this comment for now.

> This is allohistory, not fixed history. Just because something turned out
> one way in our history doesnt mean that ith as to work out the same way
> if the wheel of time was given another spin.

Allohistory does not mean anything goes. It means picking an event which might have gone differently, and then extrapolating what might plausibly have happened from there. Some things may have changed if history had gone differently, but you can't just ignore the causes of why particular historical events or trends happened.

There's nothing wrong with the principle of picking an outcome you want and see if there's a plausible way for it to happen. But you're ignoring that there are reasons why North America ended up as we know it today. Flapping your arms won't change that.

Go back far enough, and you might be able to create a two-power NA scenario, but 1753 is far too late. 1529 is too late. Even 1492 is probably too late, although you might be able to make a case for a post-Columbus scenario where things change. (Maybe, just maybe, if John Cabot survives for longer and is much more successful.)

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From: Guido the Guide
Time: 25 December, 9:05 AM

Kumgatu, just cool it. Speak civilly of other members. Take the argument to individual messages, if you really must, but even then, remember that good conduct is still in effect. I don't want the Admin to come back tomorrow and have to start evicting people for things they wrote on Christmas day, of all days.

*

From: Kumgatu the Bold
Time: 25 December, 9:17 AM

Originally written by Guido the Guide:
> I don't want the Admin to come back tomorrow and have to
> start evicting people for things they wrote on Christmas day,
> of all days.

Partner, how many times? I'm a Plirite. I'm not a Christian. I DON'T CARE ABOUT CHRISTMAS.

You worshippers of a dead god can believe what you want, but don't try to impose it on me or the world.

Originally written by The Last Gunfighter:
> Stop thinking so fixed-historically! Given who you picked your
> lingo from, I'd have thought you would be more courageous about
> thinking in new ways.

Stop being such a patronising piece of donkey's vomit.

> Don't you think that if, say, Tigeria fell to the English early enough,
> that there would be more commonality among the northern and
> southern English colonies?

A few more things in common, maybe, but not enough to matter. It was hard enough getting Virginia and Cavendia to unite. Wine, hemp and tobacco growing free farmers didn't get on that well with rice and tea growing, slave-owning planters. How well do you think it's going to work if you throw in whatever mercantilists you have in ex-Tigeria and puritans in New England?

*

From: Emerald
Time: 25 December, 9:26 AM

Originally written by Kumgatu the Bold:
> You worshippers of a dead god can believe what you want, but
> don't try to impose it on me or the world.

So you want balance instead of Christmas peace? Just don't give us the harmony which comes through self-detonation.

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From: Kumgatu the Bold
Time: 25 December, 9:32 AM

Fuck you, Emerald. Fuck you with a 200-metre redwood up the arse.

The worst part of it is, you can't even be creative with your baiting. You could at least have come up with something smarter like "partner, you have a really explosive personality".

Instead, it was just a boring insult. The only thing you left out was calling me a black-heart or nigger or something equally puerile. It's as bad as if I called you a ritual cannibal, which I won't, because it would be predictable.

*

From: Guido the Guide
Time: 25 December, 9:47 AM

@ Emerald, that was disgraceful. I've deleted your second message, since it was even worse. Consider yourself locked for a week. It would be longer, but that's the maximum I have the authority for. Whenever the Admin checks back in, I'm sure he'll evict you permanently.

@ Kumgatu, what Emerald wrote was reprehensible, but you were steaming even before that. You're locked for seventy-two hours to give you a chance to calm down.

@ TLG, you're still pretty new around here, so I'll settle for a warning in your case: be more civil to people. This isn't a playground, and you're not Mighty Mouse.

As for the rest of you, anyone who tries to keep any baiting going will get the same punishment as Emerald. Anyone else who tries to derail the thread some other way will be summarily locked for twenty-four hours.

*

From: Jason Markham
Time: 25 December, 10:51 AM

Originally written by The Last Gunfighter:
> The basic sceanrio is that North America must be wholly divided into two great
> powers: an Anglophone power in the north and east, and a Hispanophone power in
> the south and west.

Very difficult one, TLG. Maybe not space-cuckoo difficult as some have suggested upthread, but still a very hard thing to pull off.

You'd certainly need an early divergence. 1753 is right out. I think that you'd need to have New Amsterdam fall to the English before it gets properly established. I'm not up on the military and naval history enough to work out the latest date when that would be possible, but once the whole New Netherlands are in place, it's too late. Even if they fall to the English later, there's still too much of a sense of separation among England's disparate colonies.

*

From: The Profound Wanderer
Time: 25 December, 11:11 AM

Maybe have New Amsterdam fall to someone else first. Sweden maybe, or France? Having one set of foreign overlords might mean that the people there have a weakened sense of identity, then if the English take over later, its less of an issue.

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From: The Last Gunfighter
Time: 25 December, 11:21 AM

@ PWanda

Yeah, that mihgt work. Doesn't help that much with the Spanish half, though. Can you think of a divergence which would help with that?

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From: Neville Maximum
Time: 25 December, 11:24 AM

Keeping California part of the Spanish great power is going to be a bitch!

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From: Cuchulainn
Time: 25 December, 11:32 AM

You've set yourself quite a task here, TLG. I'm afraid I do not see any way to help with the scenario as a whole, but I recommend that you read everything that Stayman has written on the history of Virginia and Alleghania to give yourself some idea of the requirements for unification.

*

From: Patrician
Time: 25 December, 11:39 AM

Keeping the French out of North America entirely is going to be hard. New France is easy enough to have them lose pretty much any time, even Canada, but Louisiana is a 'hole other story.

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From: The Profound Wanderer
Time: 25 December, 11:55 AM

Originally written by Patrician:
> Keeping the French out of North America entirely is going to be hard.
> New France is easy enough to have them lose pretty much any time, even
> Canada, but Louisiana is a 'hole other story.

There can still be significant numbers of French speakers, remember. Just a 10% minority of the whole population. If you can hold the rest of North America east of the Rockies into one nation – I know, I know, but finding a divergence for that is the challenge – then Louisiana won't be that big a proportion of the people.

It would have to fall to the English eventually, or even the new sovereign nation after it wins independence.

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From: Alex 1001
Time: 25 December, 12:03 PM

Originally written by The Profound Wanderer:
> It would have to fall to the English eventually, or even the new
> independent nation after it wins independence.

Or after the English grant them independence.

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From: The Profound Wanderer
Time: 25 December, 12:09 PM

Originally written by Alex 1001:
> Or after they win independence.

Yeah, I suppose. Given what's already happened in this thread, though, I don't want to derail things by getting into the ever-contentious arguments about whether independence was better granted by the pen or the gun barrel.

From a macro-level it's pretty much irrelevant anyway. You have go figure out how to make the English colonies the only ones north of the Spanish great power. Once you've worked that out, the details of how independence is achieved will be relatively minor.

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From: Lopidya
Time: 25 December, 12:14 PM

Everyone's forgetting about the Spanish half of the challenge. How to create a super-Mexico or preserved New Spain which stretches from Alaska to Panama? That's a major undertaking in itself, never mind combining the anglophone half of the continent too!

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From: The Profound Wanderer
Time: 25 December, 12:21 PM

Originally written by Lopidya:
> Everyone's forgetting about the Spanish half of the challenge. How to
> create a super-Mexico or preserved New Spain which stretches from
> Alaska to Panama?

Personally, I'd see the English-speaking half as the greater challenge. Find a divergence which can accomplish that, and the Spanish unification might follow from that – if only as a response to the threat posed by this English great power.

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From: Neville Maximum
Time: 25 December, 12:28 PM

No-one's answered how any Super-Mexico is going to hold onto California as a single country!

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From: Hats
Time: 25 December, 12:41 PM

Originally written by Neville Maximum:
> No-one's answered how any Super-Mexico is going to hold onto
> California as a single country!

Oh, please. No Californian Migration scenarios are commonplace around here. Learn how to use the search engine.

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From: Neville Maximum
Time: 25 December, 12:45 PM

@ Hats

California is a problem coming and going, partner. If there's no migration, then there's not enough people to make it worth Spain's trouble to hold onto it, either!

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From: The Last Gunfighter
Time: 25 December, 12:52 PM

@ Hats and Maxxie

Actually, for the scenario I have in mnd, I'd prefer it if California does have a large population.

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From: Neville Maximum
Time: 25 December, 12:59 PM

Then you're stuck, partner. If California has the migration, then it won't be part of any super-Mexico. If California doesn't have the migration, then how can it have so many people?

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From: AlyssaBabe
Time: 25 December, 1:01 PM

Originally written by Neville Maximum:
> If California doesn't have the migration, then how can it have so
> many people?

Cali-fornication...

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From: Tin Man
Time: 25 December, 1:06 PM

Gunfighter, do you have a map of the borders you have in mind?

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From: Patrician
Time: 25 December, 1:10 PM

So, would a fall of Tigeria – when still the New Netherlands – to Sweden or France be possible?

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From: Special Jimmy
Time: 25 December, 1:14 PM

@ Patrician
Not bloody likely. Sweden had too much else to worry about in Europe during the seventeenth century to pick a fight over Tigeria. France didn't have the navy to hold it until it was too well-established to be conquered and bargained away at the diplomatic table.

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From: Patrician
Time: 25 December, 1:19 PM

So it's down to England conquering it directly, if anyone does?

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From: Special Jimmy
Time: 25 December, 1:21 PM

@ Patrician
Hard to see who else could do it. Spain couldn't even beat the Dutch in the Netherlands, not like they're going to bother taking New Amsterdam.

*

From: Hats
Time: 25 December, 1:26 PM

Originally written by Neville Maximum:
> California is a problem coming and going, partner. If there's
> no migration, then there's not enough people to make it worth
> Spain's trouble to hold onto it, either!

That's oversimplifying to the point of absurdity. It would be worth less, not worthless. A near-empty California give less motivation to keep it, but it's easier to hold with fewer rebellious locals around, too.

This has come up before. Many times. Check out Red Dawn's excellent "When We Were Young" timeline, which is based on a variant of the No California Migration premise, or Orb's seminal "Night and Steel" timeline, which has a near-empty California as a flow-on.

Or, failing that, use the search engine to find the dozens of discussion threads on this topic. You're not discussing anything new here.

*

From: Patrician
Time: 25 December, 1:28 PM

So basically we need a specific divergence which gives the English early control of Tigeria.

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From: The Last Gunfighter
Time: 25 December, 1:36 PM

Everyone, this thread is drifting. Does anyon have any ideas for how to solve both halfs of the challenge?

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From: The Last Gunfighter
Time: 25 December, 1:38 PM

@Tin Man

No, don't have a map. Would you mind drawing one based on what I've described?

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From: Hats
Time: 25 December, 1:41 PM

Originally written by The Last Gunfighter:
> Everyone, this thread is drifting. Does anyon have any ideas for
> how to solve both halfs of the challenge?

No, because it can't be done, as you've already been told. We've moved on to discussing whether one half or the other of your challenge can be accomplished. That might be possible, and more interesting to boot.

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From: The Last Gunfighter
Time: 25 December, 1:47 PM

@ Hats
Stop being a spoilsport. If you can't think of a way to make it work, don't disencourage everyone else from trying.

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From: Patrician
Time: 25 December, 1:49 PM

TLG, stop being a jackanape. If you're so precious about your scenario, tell us exactly what you have in mind and we'll see if we can help.

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From: Hats
Time: 25 December, 1:54 PM

Wow, TLG, you are a piece of work. Since Guido has already had to drop a warning over conduct in this thread, I won't say anything else except welcome to my eyes shut list. Population: you.

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From: The Last Gunfighter
Time: 25 December, 1:56 PM

@ Patrician
Dont want to give too much away, but it's mostly set in Africa.

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From: Patrician
Time: 25 December, 1:59 PM

If that's the best you can do, goodbye. I have better things to do on Christmas than help someone who refuses to be helped.

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From: Neville Maximum
Time: 25 December, 2:16 PM

Those timelines are much too long. You can't expect me to read all of them!

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From: Pierre Dubois
Time: 25 December, 2:53 PM

Much as it pains me to agree with Hats about anything, he's right in this case. TLG, you might as well be farting into the wind.

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From: The Last Gunfighter
Time: 25 December, 3:48 PM

Is there anyone left who actually feels up to meeting an AH challange?

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From: Tuar'e'mont Tua'ru'il
Time: 25 December, 4:02 PM

Love to read a scenario based on this, but don't know enough about it to suggest how you could achieve it.

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From: Lopidya
Time: 25 December, 4:14 PM

Does it matter for your scenario if there's still Plirites in North America?

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From: The Last Gunfighter
Time: 25 December, 4:33 PM

@ Lopidya
It would be fine if there's still religious Plirite influence. Mkes no difference for my scenario. The only things I nede are that there are only two states, and that linguistically they must be Anglophone and Hispanophone. But the later the divergence the better, since it could flow-on to what I have in mind elsewhere in the world.

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From: HistoryMinor
Time: 25 December, 6:11 PM

You're all going about this challenge wrong. A later divergence date is perfectly plausible, if you think about the essential requirements.

The original poster wants a dual state North America where English and Spanish are the dominant languages today. Not in 1900. Not in 1800. Today.

That's plenty of time for linguistic change, and for military conquest, too.

Why couldn't two military great powers emerge in North America, even after independence? Wars are complex things. Given the right circumstances, I could easily see a post-independence state conquering most of its neighbours. And holding them, too. Sure, they might be unhappy subjects, but subjects they could remain.

New England has the potential on the eastern seaboard, I think, and Mexico in the south. Not easy, of course, but not impossible either. (Not even im-possible.)

If conquest can be achieved in the right timeframe, then linguistic change would follow. Consider: languages, even well-established languages, can decline over time. Particularly in the era of modern communications.

If New England launches a successful program of military expansion, say sometime after 1870 when its industrial advantage will really be at its height, then it might take over much of North America.

If New England can hold its conquests, then English will be a clear majority language over the whole eastern half of the continent. Of course, there will be significant linguistic minorities, but they will be as islands in an English sea. Most official communications will be in English; so will most education, especially higher education.

Given that sort of linguistic pressure, I'd expect substantial declines in the proportion of minority language speakers. Sure, French or Dutch will never disappear entirely, but they will gradually attrite speakers, particularly in smaller communities. Before too long, the majority of their speakers will be bilingual; in a few generations, many of them will speak English as their first language.

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From: Broken Drum
Time: 25 December, 6:38 PM

Originally written by HistoryMinor:
> If New England launches a successful program of military
> expansion, say sometime after 1870 when its industrial advantage
> will really be at its height, then it might take over much of North
> America.

That's some impressive space-cuckoos you have singing there, partner. New England launching a continent-wide military expansion program after 1870? Using what, genetically enhanced super dolphins?

Sure, they've got more population and manufacturing capacity than any other individual nation in North America, but not all of them together. New England might get away with conquest once, maybe even twice. But don't you think that after that, the rest of the continent would form a defensive alliance to stop them? Especially if New England is annexing whole nations.

And don't even get me started on the possibility of foreign intervention from Europe, Argentina, or Brazil.

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From: HistoryMinor
Time: 25 December, 6:48 PM

@ Broken Drum
Guess it's easier to bitch than to create, hey?

I didn't say it was likely. Just that it was possible. Mistrust can stop nations allying together; foreign wars can keep the European and South American powers busy elsewhere. Don't write off a whole scenario as impossible just because there's circumstances where it might not happen.

*

From: The Last Gunfighter
Time: 25 December, 6:54 PM

@ HistoryMinor
Lov you're style, man! Can you develop that scenario a bit more?

*

From: Broken Drum
Time: 25 December, 7:14 PM

Originally written by HistoryMinor:

> I didn't say it was likely. Just that it was possible. Mistrust can stop
> nations allying together; foreign wars can keep the European and South
> American powers busy elsewhere. Don't write off a whole scenario as
> impossible just because there's circumstances where it might not happen.

There's mistrust, and there's bloody insanity.

Mistrust is: Alleghania and Louisiana stand aside while New England invades Tigeria over some trumped-up pretext.

Bloody insanity is: Alleghania, Louisiana, California, Mexico, and everyone else in North America don't notice when New England cunningly invades and annexes them one by one, and they just stand around smoking kunduri and do nothing about it, because, well, they think that New England's armies have flashy uniforms or something.

Spot the difference?

*

From: HistoryMinor
Time: 25 December, 7:16 PM

@ The Last Gunfighter:
Glad you like my suggestions, but I can't help noticing that this is about the fifth thread you've started where you ask other people to come up with ideas for you, but you're never willing to put any time or thought into developing them yourself. I think that this time you should flesh things out on your own.

*

From: Sword of Allah
Time: 25 December, 7:21 PM

Originally written by Broken Drum:
> Bloody insanity is: Alleghania, Louisiana, California, Mexico, and everyone
> else in North America don't notice when New England cunningly invades and
> annexes them one by one, and they just stand around smoking kunduri and
> do nothing about it, because, well, they think that New England's armies
> have flashy uniforms or something.

If Alleghania, Louisiana, and the rest are involved in a lengthy war; they might not be able to do something about it when New England starts the attack. And they probably won't be a very good shape to do much after they stop fighting each other. After all, there is historical precedence for that (multiple occasions, for that matter). War-weary Persia and Byzantium getting largely swallowed by the Caliphate, for one.

*

From: HistoryMinor
Time: 25 December, 7:23 PM

@ Broken Drum

There's constructive criticism, and there's unhelpful pedantic nitpicking.

Constructive criticism is: pointing out the problems with someone else's allohistorical scenario and suggesting alternatives to make it work.

Unhelpful pedantic nitpicking is: carping and quibbling and refusing to change your position or keep an open mind, and never actually coming up with any scenarios or ideas of your own.

Spot the difference?

*

From: Dozy
Time: 25 December, 7:31 PM

I think that the best time to create an English-speaking great power in North America is in later colonial times. Maybe do something to muck about with the Nine Years' War. You'd have to change the alliance structure or diplomatic priorities a fair bit – maybe have Denmark intervene, for instance – but it might be possible for England to make some major colonial acquisitions as a result of that war (or a close allohistorical analogue).

That wouldn't be enough in itself to create a single English nation in North America, but it would be a good start.

*

From: Mark Antony the Guide
Time: 25 December, 7:39 PM

Right. There's far too much hostility in this thread. I'm closing it now before things get even worse. The Admin can sort out any necessary punishments in the morning.

Compliments of the season to everyone who celebrates it, and good luck to everyone else.

--

[1] This refers to the Red River which forms the OTL Texas-Oklahoma state border, not one of the at least six other Red Rivers in OTL USA or Canada.

--

Thoughts?

 

[kilopi505]

So...is our United States an impossibility for alt!AH.com?

 

[bookwyrm]

Ah the internet; even massive changes to the time-space continuum can't stop you from being a toxic dumpster fire from time to time.

 

[Zam]

That read as incredibly realistic, invested in the world and believable, kudos, everyone had distinct voices and styles as well.​

 

[Arthur Frayn]

Always love a good alt history alt history discussion, especially when you can sort of guess who's based on who (I've kind've always wanted to see a version of myself pop up in on of these).

Great update, this gives us some good insight into the state of North America (and really South America, interventionist Argentina and Brazil?). Looks like we've got an independent New England that's the big kid on the block, an independent New Netherlands/Tigeria (so, OTL New York, give or take?), some kind of Mid-Atlantic state (Alleghania is probably Pennsylvania, give or take a New Jersey), and a union of Virginia and the Carolinas.

Not sure if it's a spoiler, but I'd love to see a map; love a good allohistorical/Balkanized North America.

 

[Jared]

So...is our United States an impossibility for alt!AH.com?

Click to shrink...

Depends who on alt-AH.com you ask. Some would agree, so would quibble, and some would say .

What I did here was deliberately distinct from the far too common AH trope where ATL people speculate on an alternate world and somehow always pick our world.

In this case, what's being asked for is not our world, but (more or less) the North America as it was set up in Robert Sobel's classic AH For Want of a Nail. This ends up with an even more combined North America than in OTL, with only two states rather than the three in mainland North America in OTL. (With the obvious caveat that this depends on where you define North America as ending and Central America as beginning). The ATL characters come from a "divided North America" kind of world, and most of them have trouble accepting that it could be united. Some of them would concede three states are possible, and so might accept that our United States could exist. But many would not.

Ah the internet; even massive changes to the time-space continuum can't stop you from being a toxic dumpster fire from time to time.

Click to shrink...

Some things are just inevitable as long as people are in them.

That read as incredibly realistic, invested in the world and believable, kudos, everyone had distinct voices and styles as well.​

Click to shrink...

Glad you liked it.

Always love a good alt history alt history discussion, especially when you can sort of guess who's based on who (I've kind've always wanted to see a version of myself pop up in on of these).

Click to shrink...

I tend not to base characters on any specific real person (except by permission), mostly because I'm always worried I wouldn't capture their style properly. I tend to go more for distillation of styles of online communication which I've seen multiple times. The "use the search engine" is one which shows up a lot on actual AH.com, for instance, where I first wrote this.

Great update, this gives us some good insight into the state of North America (and really South America, interventionist Argentina and Brazil?). Looks like we've got an independent New England that's the big kid on the block, an independent New Netherlands/Tigeria (so, OTL New York, give or take?), some kind of Mid-Atlantic state (Alleghania is probably Pennsylvania, give or take a New Jersey), and a union of Virginia and the Carolinas.

Click to shrink...

Alleghania is actually the union of Virginia and the Carolinas, and a few other bits and pieces. Virginia was the dominant player in the unification, hence the character speaking about the history of "Virginia and Alleghania".

Tigeria is more or less New York, although the coastal borders are a bit different and the amount of the interior it occupies has not been specified.

New England would indeed be described as the big kid on the block, although I should note that this was referring to a particular period in history and not necessarily down to the modern day.

In terms of other states, California, Louisiana and Mexico are also described as states that existed, at least for significant periods, along with unnamed other states. So need to factor those in too.

Not sure if it's a spoiler, but I'd love to see a map; love a good allohistorical/Balkanized North America.

Click to shrink...

A map of ATL modern North America would unfortunately be extremely spolierific, for reasons which I can't really go into because they would also be extremely spoilierific.

 

[LiteralistPedant]

A map of ATL modern North America would unfortunately be extremely spolierific, for reasons which I can't really go into because they would also be extremely spoilierific.

Click to shrink...

Would you be willing to put up a map without labels (no names, just borders)? Or is the mere layout of countries itself too spoilery?

(I'll freely admit that I prefer the modern-encyclopedic narrative over the historical one, and seeing even a vague instance of how Aururia has affected the modern world is making me even more invested in the story, so a map of alt-modern-day ANYWHERE would honestly make my day.)

 

[Jared]

Would you be willing to put up a map without labels (no names, just borders)? Or is the mere layout of countries itself too spoilery?

Click to shrink...

Unfortunately, posting the modern borders is spoilerific since it will show the fate of various regions before that gets covered in the main timeline. (If a known state does not exist as a separate region in a modern map, it's rather a hint as to its fate). It's not as spoilerific as naming the states, but it's still a significant spoiler.

(I'll freely admit that I prefer the modern-encyclopedic narrative over the historical one, and seeing even a vague instance of how Aururia has affected the modern world is making me even more invested in the story, so a map of alt-modern-day ANYWHERE would honestly make my day.)

Click to shrink...

Producing a map also faces the more fundamental problem that I'm rather graphically challenged. All of the maps posted here, as have been credited, are designed by various contributors over at AH.com. So any map would also need someone willing to design it.

Possibly I could come up with borders for North America as it is in somewhere between 1760-1800, if someone is willing to design a map. That would still give some glimpse of the future without showing the modern outcome.

 

[LiteralistPedant]

Unfortunately, posting the modern borders is spoilerific since it will show the fate of various regions before that gets covered in the main timeline. (If a known state does not exist as a separate region in a modern map, it's rather a hint as to its fate). It's not as spoilerific as naming the states, but it's still a significant spoiler.

Producing a map also faces the more fundamental problem that I'm rather graphically challenged. All of the maps posted here, as have been credited, are designed by various contributors over at AH.com. So any map would also need someone willing to design it.

Possibly I could come up with borders for North America as it is in somewhere between 1760-1800, if someone is willing to design a map. That would still give some glimpse of the future without showing the modern outcome.

Click to shrink...

Ah, that's understandable. Thanks anyways!

 

[Jared]

Since I was banned from Alternate History I'll ask several questions here:

• How will the frontier wars likely play out here?
• What has changed for the Ottoman Empire in this world?
• How far do Aboriginal Australians trade or interact with the rest of the world here?

Click to shrink...

I'll take up these questions by PM since they involve spoilers for how far the timeline has progressed on AH.com but hasn't yet been published here.

Ah, that's understandable. Thanks anyways!

Click to shrink...

I should also add that there as the timeline progresses there will be quite a few "special" posts - Christmas, Halloween, etc - and other flash-forwards which give some idea of parts of the future, although naturally those are limited in terms of the scope of how much they show in the future.

 

[Jared]

Lands of Red and Gold #41: Shaking the Branches

"Hope is the delusion of fools. Acceptance is the choice of wisdom."
- Batjiri of Jurundit [Koroit, Victoria]

--

Picture, if you will, a plain outside a city, leading down to a gently sloping beach. The city is one which its inhabitants call Coonrura, and which another history will call Kingston [Kingston SE, South Australia]. At this time, the city is inhabited mostly by a people who call themselves the Yadilli and who follow the wisdom of the Good Man [ie Plirites], but it is ruled by the Yadji. Or it would be, if the divided Yadji could ever end their seemingly endless civil war and decide on a single Regent.

On the plain outside, an army is encamped, watched over by strange ships anchored offshore in the bay. An army unlike any which has ever been seen before in the Land of the Five Directions. A force composed mostly of men with strange, half-coloured skin as if they had been pulled out of the oven too early.

Under the command of Pieter Nuyts and his son Lauren, they have come in the name of gold. Thirteen hundred foot soldiers with arquebus and pike. Three hundred cavalry, all veterans of the long war which is slowly grinding to a halt in Europe. Not all of their horses survived the voyage here, and some of those which did are in a poor state, but still, these strange four-legged giant beasts have both impressed and terrified the Yadilli. Two dozen cannon of varying calibre, brought most astutely by the elder Nuyts, who had heard of the impression which those weapons have made among the Aururian peoples further west.

With these Raw Men march allies. Five hundred mercenaries of the Mutjing, survivors of their own people's endless squabbling. None of the Yadilli have taken up arms yet, but Nuyts is making most valiant efforts to persuade them to join him.

The Nedlandj invasion has begun.

--

Founded by the teachings of the Good Man, the Plirite faith is both united and divided. United in its acknowledgement of the wisdom of its founder, divided in both polity and its interpretation of how that wisdom should be applied.

The Nangu branch of the Plirites is the most widely-known of those interpretations, thanks to being carried afar by the Island's merchant venturers, but it is not universal, and not even the eldest interpretation. Another, older interpretation is cherished by the people who call themselves the Yadilli.

The Yadilli are among the most ancient of Gunnagalic-speaking peoples. Their ancestors settled on the lower reaches of the Nyalananga [River Murray] in the earliest days of Aururian agriculture. Their ancestors were quick to adopt copper-working, and were the first to learn the art of working arsenical bronze. It was the vigorous pursuit for mining that metal which led to uprising, and indirectly to the collapse of the Formative Gunnagal culture which will so puzzle future archaeologists [1].

The ancestors of the Yadilli were among those who had burned the ancient great city, triggering the Interregnum. They fled across the mighty river to the south. There they found that for days and days of travel, they were cut off from the sea by a series of long, bittersweet lakes with sand dunes beyond [2]. The water there promised fishing and waterbirds for food, but it did not offer safety for people who still feared being forced to work in mines and out of the sun.

They fled further, until they arrived at a region where the lakes disappeared, to be replaced by a wide sheltered bay with glistening white beaches, and where the shape of the coastline protected it from the worst weather of the southern ocean [3]. Here, they felt safe. Here, they settled, and would remain for a very long time.

The Yadilli have long believed themselves to be a people apart. They did not expand much further from their ancestral lands, and they have lost even legends of that far-off time when they migrated from across the Nyalananga. But they maintain a strong sense of their own identity.

The Yadilli have preserved their language and culture through more than two millennia of local and foreign rule. They survived the chaos of the Great Migrations. They endured the rule of the First Speakers. They had a short time of independence where they adopted the faith of the Good Man before being conquered by the growing might of the Yadji. For some brief periods, their lands have been claimed by the kingdom of Tjibarr, although the Yadji have ruled them for the last half-century.

Now, in the year which another continent's calendar calls 1637, they face a new challenge...

--

A small scroll of wattle-bark paper is carefully unrolled. The ink markings on it [4] are clumsily-drawn, as if the writer had only rarely used a quill. Which is indeed the case, as the reader knows.

This scroll has come from a listener [spy] assigned to Coonrurua. That listener knows only the basics of writing, and indeed has used far more pictographs in his message than should be properly used, including a few employed incorrectly.

Still, the gist of the message is clear enough:

"Strangers have come on ships. Not Islanders or Tjibarri. Men uncooked. Led by One True Egg [5]. Some ride giant dogs. Summon thunder and throw iron balls like the breath of the Rainbow Serpent. One True Egg urges Yadilli to rise against the Neverborn. Their elders have not announced yes or no."

With a muttered curse against the Lord of the Night, the reader rises. He wonders whether he can find another to bring this news to the prince.

--

The Time of Troubles, as it will later be known, or the Year of the Twisted Serpent, as the Yadji or the era call it. Either way, it is finally nearing its end. The largest civil war in the history of the Yadji Empire has been traumatic, bloody, and lengthy, but now, in the year which the visiting Raw Men call 1637, the end is in sight.

Or so it should be.

Gunya Yadji and his commanding general Bidwadjari have fought a long war. Despite superiority of numbers and force of arms, his great rival Bailgu Yadji has refused to submit under any terms. It has taken siege after long siege to bring Bailgu's supporters into submission.

The core of the Land of the Five Directions has been cleansed of Bailgu's taint. The greatest province, the Lake Country, is entirely cleared, while in the western province of the Red Country, two cities have recently fallen, and only one last holdout remains at Balam Buandik [Beachport, South Australia]. Only in the farther reaches of the Golden Country and the even more distant White Country does Bailgu have any strong remaining presence, and even then his remaining outposts in the Golden Country are under siege [6].

Bidawdjari has judged that, barring the intervention of the Lord of Night [ie misfortune], most of the remaining enemy strongholds should have fallen within another year. Capturing the rest would take longer, but it is possible that seeing Bailgu facing annihilation will make his remaining royal supporters abandon him. Particularly if they can secure a pardon if they change sides; Gunya has already begun to make some efforts along those lines.

If only all of those plans had not been halted by the news out of the west.

--

Taken from:
The Tenth Classic
A novel by Duarte Tomás

"Report," Lauren Nuyts said crisply.

The scout dismounted, passed the reins to a waiting attendant, and then nodded. "All as expected. The kuros [7] are encamped for the night. A few scouts for warning, but they're not wandering far."

"Numbers?"

"Maybe five thousand," the scout said.

"Good work," Lauren said, then turned on his heel and walked back into the camp.

Finding the command tent was a matter of moments, even with the gathering darkness. His father waited inside, looking composed as ever. Madjri was still beside him; Lauren thought he had never seen the local headman anywhere else since they had struck the alliance to bring down these heathen Yadji.

Not that the Yadilli creed is any better, Lauren mused. But they will be our subjects soon. Time enough after to bring them to Christ.

The head of the mercenaries was there, too, along with a few of the senior Dutch soldiers.

"Scouts are back," he said. "Yadji army is bedded down for the night. About eight or ten thousand of them. They'll attack tomorrow."

"Of course they attack," Madjiri said in his broken Dutch. "They say leave or die, you stay, they attack."

"I'd rather know how they will attack," his father said. "We know so little of Yadji tactics."

"With straightforward courage," observed Dandal – at least, that was the closest Lauren could come to pronouncing the name of the Mutjing mercenary leader. "Not all Yadji soldiers seek death, but none of them fear it. They will see that they outnumber us, and they will aim for our centre and seek to crush us."

"Good thing they not know we have thunder, eh," Madjiri said, the whiteness of his teeth amazingly bright against his black skin.

His father shrugged. "We have steel and horses. I would fight even without cannon."

"But how best to use the weapons we have?" asked Colonel Michel. "Bombard them with cannon balls as they march on us, or give them a volley of muskets when they are near?"

"Your thunder will break the Yadji armies either way," Dandal said.

"Panic is good, but with cannon, they will flee before we can close with them," his father said. "I think that we should keep our cannon for another time. Let them feel the weight of shot and musket."

The conversation grew intricately involved with battle plans and deployment after that. Lauren listened with only half an ear. He needed to hear these things, but he did not pretend to be a master tactician. That was why they had recruited the German and Dutch soldiers in the first place.

No, what intrigued him more was how the Yadji would react after they were defeated. They were here to conquer an empire, after all, as Cortes and Pizzaro had done before them. Winning the battles was important, but more would need to be done afterward.

In time, the soldiers settled on a battle plan which would require the Dutch troops to hold a solid centre and face the main Yadji charge. The Mutjing mercenaries would protect the left flank, while the cavalry would be on the right flank with the most open ground and the chance to pursue the enemy when they broke. The Yadilli militia were to be held in reserve. His father explained that this would be for pursuit, too, but the unspoken message was that the Yadilli would not yet be trusted.

Once the battle plans were settled, Lauren asked Dandal to translate his words into a form which the Yadilli would understand; he did not trust Madjiri's broken Dutch for these questions.

Via Dandal, he asked, "With the Yadji defeated here, what will they do next? Will their emperor submit?"

Madjiri laughed. "Were you not listening? Yadji will not fear death, but welcome it. To them, this invasion will be part of the end of the world, when they must fight utterly until their over-powered god is released."

Of his own initiative, Dandal added, "Prince Gunya is a man of great drive. He has fought his brother for ten years and more. He will not stop until he has no armies left."

Not the most cheering of thoughts, Lauren mused.

*

Smoke still hung over the field of battle. The air hung still and hot, with no waft of breeze to clear the haze or mask the noises. Lauren's ears still brought him the sound of screams, and more distant shots and shouts as the cavalry and Dutch infantry pursued the remaining kuros.

Before him, though, was a more urgent problem.

A couple of hundred Yadji had surrendered, whether through injury or lack of courage. Some of the Yadilli militia had been assigned to guard them while his father oversaw the pursuit.

Madjiri said, "What good keep Yadji alive? No need prisoners. That not..." He went back and forth with a Mutjing mercenary who was assigned as an interpreter. "Lack decisiveness."

"You can't just kill prisoners," Lauren said. Well, it could be done sometimes, depending on the bitterness of the fighting. Such a wholesale bloodlust struck him as excessive, though.

"Not kill all of them," Madjiri said. "Spare... one in hundred, send back to tell of their defeat. Rest must die – only way to bring balance."

Lauren started to argue, then stopped. These Yadilli had been only half-hearted supporters until now. Some had agreed to join to fight, yes, but many more had stood aside. Victory now would inspire the rest. No need to antagonise them over this when the Dutch needed local allies.

"So be it," he said.

--

[1] See post #6.

[2] This is a series of lakes along the coast of modern south-eastern South Australia, which are an extension of the Murray Mouth, and separated from the sea by a long series of sand dunes created by silt deposited by the Murray. They are a mixture of fresh and salt water, depending on the balance of rainfall and river flow. The nature of the coastline makes settlement by the sea itself difficult, although it makes for very good fishing.

[3] This is Lacepede Bay, which is not a completely sheltered harbour, but whose geography protects it from most weather except when the wind is blowing directly out of the west.

[4] Mostly irrelevant aside which didn't fit into any earlier post: the ink which the Aururians use is made from a combination of soot (from burnt wattle wood) mixed with wattle gum (as a binding agent – much as gum arabic was used elsewhere in the world). The Yadji take this one step further by writing on a kind of paper made from the boiled inner bark of wattles. Wattles: The Trees with One Thousand and One Uses.

[5] By one of those coincidences of allohistorical linguistics, the name Pieter Nuyts, to Junditmara speakers, sounds like the words for "one true egg", and hence his name has been rendered that way.

[6] See post #16 for a description of the Yadji provinces, and also the map which follows it.

[7] Kuro, an allohistorical Dutch term for Aururian peoples, was first used by Pieter Nuyts and his son Lauren. It is derived from the Japanese word for black; the two Nuyts learned that term during their imprisonment in Japan, and use it to distinguish dark-skinned Aururians from even darker-skinned Africans.

--

Thoughts?

 

[bookwyrm]

Now the author puts the massacre at the hands of the inscrutable barbarity of the savage natives, but honestly I very seriously doubt 1,600 Europeans + camp followers logistically supplied by their surviving ship stores and the half-trusted Yadili surplus would be very able to maintain hundreds of prisoners. Or at least not without spending the political capital and bribes to have the Yadili take on the burden and leaving such a powerful task entirely in the hands of the headmen they want to keep apart and below them.

 

[Zam]

I am a bit surprised/concerned that the cruelty is placed in the hands of the Yadili, especially given the sheer contempt and disregard demonstrated by the invaders not long ago and that which is required for their plan to work.

Beyond that, very interesting world building, you also do an excellent job of conveying the flow of events and time, the war was previously well established, and now we see its end, only for a surprise new enemy to appear and strike the Yadji from behind, I feel for them, this is a tricky situation.

 

[Jared]

Now the author puts the massacre at the hands of the inscrutable barbarity of the savage natives, but honestly I very seriously doubt 1,600 Europeans + camp followers logistically supplied by their surviving ship stores and the half-trusted Yadili surplus would be very able to maintain hundreds of prisoners. Or at least not without spending the political capital and bribes to have the Yadili take on the burden and leaving such a powerful task entirely in the hands of the headmen they want to keep apart and below them.

Click to shrink...

A certain amount of suspicion is certainly called for, given that the crucial account was relayed via an author of fiction rather than a viewpoint character or even a "historical" book. Not to mention that I explicitly use unreliable narrators within this timeline. That said, as explained in more detail below, Plirites to have a tendency not to take prisoners in what they deem as a "necessary war", which for practical purposes means against non-Plirites.

I am a bit surprised/concerned that the cruelty is placed in the hands of the Yadili, especially given the sheer contempt and disregard demonstrated by the invaders not long ago and that which is required for their plan to work.

Click to shrink...

This cruelty is attributed to the Yadilli by a non-Aururian fictional author (judging by the name, someone whose family is of Spanish descent) writing at least 200 years after the time of the events. It's possible that this bears some resemblance to what actually happened, but it's also quite possible that what is being shown is just what later European accounts claimed happened.

More generally, this is a case of where I'd like to leave readers to make up their own minds as to exactly what happened. On the one hand, Plirites do have a deserved reputation for being reluctant to take prisoners. Part of the Sevenfold Path is the path of decisiveness, also expressed as "no half-actions." Their view is that war should be something engaged in only when truly necessary, but as a result, if you are going to fight a war, it tends to be one which gets fought to the finish. Taking prisoners is often not encouraged, particularly against foes who aren't Plirite. So it's something which the Mutjing and/or the Yadilli (both Plirite peoples) could conceivably have suggested.

On the other hand, as @bookwyrm pointed out, the Europeans are also not in a position where they would be inclined to take on the burden of prisoners. This isn't like Europe where they could expect to ransom the people of stature. The Yadji do have a tradition of allowing people to be "paroled" for a period of time, which allows for potential repatriation of prisoners if they swear an oath not to take up arms again until the war is over. (Something similar was also known in Europe during this period). But the Yadji wouldn't be inclined to swear such an oath for uncivilized peoples (as they see it) - this kind of parole is usually reserved for wars against what the Yadji consider civilized states, ie the Five Rivers kingdoms of Tjibarr, Gutjanal and Yigutji. They may consider Mutjing as close enough to seek parole, but not Yadilli (rebels) or Europeans (unknown heathens). So realistically, what would the Europeans have done?

Beyond that, very interesting world building, you also do an excellent job of conveying the flow of events and time, the war was previously well established, and now we see its end, only for a surprise new enemy to appear and strike the Yadji from behind, I feel for them, this is a tricky situation.

Click to shrink...

The Yadji are indeed in an awkward position. They are not a pushover, by any means, but they are facing a significant challenge.

 

[Wanik]

I should probably reread this, but I can't wait until it's caught up where I left off back at the zoo.

 

[Jared]

I should probably reread this, but I can't wait until it's caught up where I left off back at the zoo.

Click to shrink...

Depending on when you finished reading it over at allohistory.com, catching up could still take a bit of time. I'm trying to strike a balance between "not dumping too many chapters too fast" versus "it would be nice to get the story up to date here at some point". Current pace is about 1-2 chapters per week, which given there's about 80 chapters left to post which have already been published on allohistory.com, could still take a small amount of time before it's up to date.

 

[Jared]

Lands of Red and Gold #42: The First Pods Fall

"The wars of mankind today are not limited to a trial of natural strength, like a bull-fight, nor even mere battles. Rather they depend on losing or gaining friends and allies, and it is to this end that good statesmen must turn all their attention and energy."
- Count Gondomar, ambassador to London, to Philip III of Spain, 28 March 1619

--

Taken from:
The Tenth Classic
A novel by Duarte Tomás

Darkness outside, kept at bay by flickering of lanterns and tallow. Coolness in the air, not the harshness of a Dutch or Japanese winter, but a welcome relief from the heat of the day.

"They not give us food, then they will have no food," Madjiri said. As always, the Yadilli commander had a disconcertingly bright smile, thanks to teeth polished God only knew how.

Lauren Nuyts shrugged. The Yadilli rebels had a way of warfare which made even the most long-serving veterans of the German war uneasy. Massacre of prisoners with not even the possibility of ransom or exchange. Now this, too.

"Why antagonise the locals needlessly?" He took in their confused expressions, and said, "I mean, why upset them."

"I understood," said Dandal, the Mutjing mercenary commander. Madjiri shook his head, suggesting that he also followed.

"Not your words that puzzle me, but your meaning," Dandal added. Which made sense; these kuros had proven to be extremely quick in picking up the gist of Dutch. "These villagers have food, but they will not open their storehouses to us. If they will not open their storehouses, then they should have no houses."

Lauren absently swatted a mosquito that had been buzzing around his ears, then said, "Destroying this entire village would get us food here, but it would make enemies of everyone else who hears of it."

Madjiri chuckled; it was not a pleasant sound. "It will make them think that maybe they should obey us."

Dandal said, "If we let this village refuse us, we will never receive food or aid from any others. We must show them what we are. War is not a time for half-measures."

Lauren looked to his father, who had been conspicuously silent throughout this discussion. He ventured a question in Japanese, a language which they had both perforce learnt during their exile [ie imprisonment] there. "I know we need to make an example of these natives, but wouldn't that go too far?"

The elder Nuyts said, "Heathens know heathens best." He switched back to Dutch. "Let them know our anger."

--

Year of the Twisted Serpent [1629-1638 AD]
Balam Buandik [Beachport, South Australia]
Land of the Five Directions (Yadji Empire)

Balam Buandik: a place with nothing to recommend it now.

In happier times, it would have been a place to treasure. A town on an isolated neck of land beside a rich, teeming lake [Lake George]. The lake had been one of the most prized of waters, a mix of true and bitter water, where waterfood could be found in abundance [1].

The lake was useless, now. The besieging army had blocked the channels which brought true water into the lake. Now it was a drying wastewater with more salt than the sea. Useless for food, useless for transport, leaving only glistening salt plains behind as the waters receded.

The town of Balam Buandik remained, despite the best efforts of Gunya's besiegers. Its location on the narrow lands meant that it could be protected by one short wall on the main landward approach, and a longer wall across the dunes on the western side. With enough canoes bringing in fish from the sea, and enough land within the walls to allow gardens for yams and wealth-trees [wattles], it could never be starved into submission, no matter how poor the fare [2].

The valuable location meant that Balam Buandik had held out for Bailgu Yadji even while the other western strongholds had fallen, one by one. So far as Warmaster Reewa knew, Balam Buandik was the last stronghold to remain west of the White Country.

How much longer he could keep this town intact, though, he wondered. Food was not the problem. Water was abundant enough from wells, too.

No, the problem was piling up almost beneath his feet.

The walls of Balam Buandik had withstood all attempts to storm them, so far, but his opposing commander had been doggedly persistent. Rather than continue with futile efforts of ladders and ropes, he had resorted to a more long-term solution.

Every night, enemy soldiers came under cover of emu-hide shields and dropped loads of earth and rock beside the wall. There were too many of them standing with bows ready to permit the defenders to dislodge the growing pile during the day. Every night, the mound of earth and rock grew larger. It was slow work, but the enemy commander proved to have the patience to carry it out.

The mound almost reached the top of the walls, now. It would not take many more nights before the enemy soldiers could climb directly onto the wall. When that happened, everyone inside would fight a last battle, and then their Last Battle.

"Warmaster, see!"

The voice broke Reewa from his reverie. Outside of bow range, one of the besieging armies held up a banner of unmarked blue.

They want to parley now? Strange, so very strange. Now that they held an inexorable advantage, why would they bother with that? They knew full well that Reewa would never surrender unless ordered to by Bailgu Yadji himself.

"How should we answer?" the nearest soldier asked.

"Colour a blue flag with one white dot," the Warmaster said. Whatever words needed to be said would be between him and the enemy commander alone. No-one else should overhear.

After his orders had been carried out, the enemy forces replied by pulling their banner down and raising it with a single white dot, too.

"Find a rope to lower me onto their mound," he said. "May as well get some use out of their work, yes? And make sure that archers are ready to kill the enemy commander if I am attacked out there."

When he had started to descend, one man stepped out from the enemy lines. Even at a distance, the shine on his armour was obvious.

They met roughly in the middle, of course, as custom and honour required. The man was indeed the enemy commander, with armour which must have been specially polished for this purpose. No sign of gold anywhere, though.

"I am Illalong," the enemy commander said, using the neutral form. No mention of his rank, either. Clever fellow, if that meant he was trying to avoid sounding either of higher or lower status.

"I am Reewa," he replied. "Have you invited me out here to gloat, now that your mound is nearly finished?"

"No, I invited you to parley because I have been so ordered by Gunya Yadji himself."

Reewa managed a slight chuckle. "Nice to hear that your prince cares so much about capturing Balam Buandik."

"To be frank, I think that he would be content to let you rot inside your walls until he has taken the crown," Illalong said.

"Why bother me, then?"

The other commander frowned. "News from the north. The Yadilli rise up in revolt, aided by Islander mercenaries and strange men from the uttermost west, beyond the seas."

News indeed, if it was true. Reewa suspected it was; Balam Buandik was hardly such a prize that Gunya Yadji would resort to a ruse to capture it. "Does your prince propose a truce to defeat them, as was done with the Kurnawal?"

"Not that he has told me," Illalong said. "Only that your prince needs to hear this news. And to believe it. Gunya Yadji thinks that he will be more likely to accept it if is delivered by your troops being given safe passage to one of the fortresses he still holds."

"You ask me to abandon my duty to hold this place?"

"I ask you to make your prince fully advised of this new threat," Illalong said. He shrugged. "It is I who am deprived, anyway. Without this order, I would have taken Balam Buandik within a week."

Reewa thought he heard exaggeration there; the mound would not be completed that quickly. Still, the words held enough truth for him to shake his head. "And if I refuse?"

"If you have not accepted by tomorrow's dawn, I will attack as soon as I can. There must be no secondary threat when Gunya Yadji marches to defeat these rebels."

"The decision will not take that long," Reewa said. In truth, he was already minded to accept. He had been offered an honourable course to preserve his soldiers. Still, it would not do to appear too hasty. "If I accept, I will raise a black banner above the walls before sundown. And if so, my soldiers will be ready to march at first light tomorrow."

"So be it." Illalong sketched a slight bow, then turned and strode away.

--

September 1637
Gurndjit [Portland, Victoria]
Land of the Five Directions (Yadji Empire)

Another day with no sign of cloud or ship.

For over a year and a half, Maurice Redman had been the commander of this most isolated of Company outposts. So isolated, in fact, that the directors of the East India Company might not yet know that they possessed this foothold in a new world. A new New World.

By now, he hoped, Baffin had brought his ships back to a Company outpost in India, or perhaps even back to England itself. He had four ships; surely at least some of them should have survived. When the Company knew what it had here in Aururia, it would send a relief ship, or perhaps even a trade ship or two.

If all of Baffin's ships had been wrecked during the voyage, well... there would be time to deal with that later. Perhaps they could build a ship; they should have sufficient tools, if the Yadji would supply the iron and timber required.

If not, perhaps he could bargain with their Islander interpreter about hiring an Islander ship to sail to Surat [3]. The Islander ships were capable of the voyage, he was sure; smaller than most English ships, but sturdy enough. The Company would not be happy that the Islanders had been shown the way to India, but the news of Aururia should make up for that.

In the meantime, though, he needed to wait. And wait. Depending on what else happened on his voyage, Baffin's ships might be delayed for quite a long time, and the voyage from England to Aururia could take a year in itself. He would have to allow at least another year from now before he sought other ways of getting word back to the Company.

"At least there are things to learn here," he murmured. Both about the Yadji and the Islanders.

He had already acquired a good grasp of the Islander language; he had passed some of the waiting by writing a book of comparative words and grammar.

No-one tried to learn the Yadji language anymore. Not after the Yadji headman ordered Charles executed for using the wrong word when attempting to speak to him. That had only been the most unpleasant of the incidents which confirmed that the Islanders had not been joking about Yadji touchiness.

Redman shook his head, realising he had been letting himself grow mental cobwebs, and returned his attention to the latest entry in his word list. Dandiri was a multifarious Islander word; trying to understand all of the shades of meaning which the Islanders imparted to it could give a man nightmares [4].

Before he could find another equivalent to that annoying word, he found another, more genuine distraction. One of the other Englishmen came in to report that Redman had been summoned to attend the local headman.

"What does that bloody devil want with us?" Redman muttered, but he hurried outside, anyway.

Eighteen months in Gurndjit, and he still couldn't find anyone who would say the headman's name. That was meant to be a sign of royalty around here, but this headman definitely reported to Gunya Yadji, who claimed their capital even if the civil war still continued. The Yadji were beyond strange, sometimes.

After he entered the former priestly temple, the headman gave him his usual greeting. Superior to inferior, from what he understood of Yadji ways, but he could live with that.

The headman said, "Gunya Yadji summons you to Kirunmara. You will attend with all haste."

A dozen questions came to Redman's lips, but he swallowed most of them again. Questions could be dangerous with the Yadji, as he and his countrymen had discovered. "I will attend. Does the prince require just me, or my countrymen also?"

The headman smiled; a question which sought further instruction was the least likely to anger a Yadji. "You, and any of your men who know about war. Especially anything about your cannon."

Redman shook his head; that meant agreement among the Yadji.

"You will follow the Royal Road. You are expected, and will find succour in any town you pass."

Redman bowed, wondering to himself what the devil had brought this about, after so long being ignored by the Yadji rulers.

--

Darkness, or so it seems. He can feel heat on his skin, and worse than heat beneath his skin, but no light.

Are his eyes not working? The question takes a long time to come to his mind, and longer to answer. Something is blocking them. Whether it is swelling – his face feels light and puffy – or something placed over his eyes, he cannot work out.

Voices sound in his ears, faint as if they are floating through cloud. Sometimes the meaning registers, sometimes it does not.

"This is my son you're talking about," a voice says. He knows that voice. It is his father, although right now he cannot picture a face to match the voice. He lacks the concentration required.

"We talk about, but not to," another voice says. One of the natives, he thinks, but cannot place which one. "No point talking to him. Swamp rash reach that stage, only thing a man can do is bring his mind into balance."

"A doctor could..." His father's voice trails off.

"No doctor here. Gunnagal doctors not come among Yadji."

"Could they do something?" his father asks, an edge of something in his voice. "Not just for Lauren. A quarter of our men – yours and mine both – lie abed with this affliction, and many of them will die. Can these... Gunnagal doctors save them?"

"Some can, or so it is said," the native says. "No help now. Too far away, even if they would come among Yadji."

"God help me, there must be something we can do," his father's voice says, but it seems to come from even further away.

The voices keep talking, but he is no longer able to understand them.

--

[1] Lake George is one of a series of coastal lakes created through the accumulation of sand dunes on their seaward side. Most of these lakes (including Lake George) have no natural outlet to the sea, and are hypersaline due to the accumulation of salts and with water lost only to evaporation. Historically, Lake George had a drainage channel dug to the sea early in the twentieth century, which reduced the salinity and turned it into a useful fishing area. Allohistorically, Yadji engineers have developed a much more complex series of water inflow channels and a dammed exit which maintains the water level, and have stocked the lake with their favourite fish to encourage its productivity.

[2] While Yadji will eat seafood if nothing else is on offer, they consider it much inferior to the fish and other waterfood which they grow through aquaculture in fresh or brackish water.

[3] Then the site of the largest English trading outpost in India.

[4] This is because dandiri is a word used in the Plirite faith to mean bringing order or harmony. Given how the faith intertwines with their lives, the Islanders use it in many different senses, although its most common non-religious meanings are to indicate approval or to describe prosperity or good fortune.

--

Thoughts?

 

[Zam]

I had some issues with the opening, however after that I rolled with this chapter intensely, kudos, I really loved the exchange between the two generals, the planning and larger strategies at play, the terse attitudes, and I adored the language and phrasing involved, the idea makes a great deal of sense as well. Also genius idea with a disease hitting the invaders, I should have thought of that XD