Okay, decided to fix it real quick before I pass out. Now the enmity is because of an intense personal rivalry, but otherwise same deal.

Let me know if you spot any other weird stuff.
 
Okay, merchants are a bit bad/dishonorable? Geisha are worse. Hinin means non-person. They are literally metaphysically soulless. Trying to make them samurai would be like declaring a farm animal a samurai. Your Clan status would be revoked.

Being a Clan of samurai that patronize and protect geisha, on the other hsnd, is perfectly fine, because the Celestial Order isn't being rearranged.
Not that into L5R, and I know that rokugan is not much like the japan it's very loosly based on. For some reason I just didn't understand that rokugani Geisha were not the quite respectable and often chaste and well educated courtesans of real life. I had never read anything about them in any rule books or internet discussions and since the codes of honor in L5R didn't seem to conflict with Geisha very harshly I just assumed their social status were similar to how they were in real life. I guess I will just add it to my list of problems with the setting.
 
it's an open secret that the scorpion have covert operatives (and some even suspect that there are those among them who are samurai).
Scorpion Samurai caught in such activities either suicides in process of capture or commit seppuku afterwards. While Scorpion clan publicly denies involvement and officially expell such Samurai. Officially accepting them? They risk losing status of Great Clan and they are Great Clan and not just newly established minor one.

Geisha are not necisarrily prostitutes, and can perform honered duties such as playing music, acting, storytelling or artistry. Compare this to the merchant class, whose very existence is a disgrace, and who can only be useful parasites at best but they were still accepted into the Mantis.
Musicians, actors, storytellers and artists are hinin. Barely better accepted than Geisha and definitely way lower status than merchants. When samurai are famous for that they are famous for their hobby with implication that all other time they are either murdermachine of maimdeathkill or perfect administrator of celestial order - and those that live from such are hinin. And making actor in samurai would be as much acceptable as making geisha one - as in not at all.

Being patron of arts is more acceptable that being patron of sex trade, but that doesn't mean that workers of such trade are of better status.
 
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Eh, those are some solid fixes. The only other thing that really strikes me as a bit odd is that a Mirumoto is in charge of a diplomatic envoy instead of a Kitsuki, but it's the Dragon, they're inscrutable at the best of times.

Other than that, a cursory glance at the timeline indicates that the Akodo family should presently be hip deep in the beginning of a ten year war against the corrupted Shimizu family. They're the lost 5th Family of the Lion who fell to the taint of Jigoku, and according to the wiki they died out after a ten year war against the Akodo over the Shireki Plain.
 
Not that into L5R, and I know that rokugan is not much like the japan it's very loosly based on. For some reason I just didn't understand that rokugani Geisha were not the quite respectable and often chaste and well educated courtesans of real life. I had never read anything about them in any rule books or internet discussions and since the codes of honor in L5R didn't seem to conflict with Geisha very harshly I just assumed their social status were similar to how they were in real life. I guess I will just add it to my list of problems with the setting.

They actually are.

The geisha are in a bit of an unusual spot, really, one of many cases where the rigid rules of Rokugani society don't quite work correctly. Technically they're not actually people and are held to be lower than the roughest farmer. In practice they are often highly educated professionals who boast a wide range of artistic talents and entertain at the highest courts in the land.

They're not prostitutes, though a samurai can certainly conduct a romantic affair with one. Their role is to provide a friendly and welcoming place where a samurai can actually relax and show human emotion, acting as a sort of pressure valve that stops the highly wound aristocrats breaking down entirely from all the pressure. That's probably why they're hinin - it is shameful to show emotion around other people, but geisha aren't people and thus it doesn't count, right? Right, and I have a duelist here who will fucking murder you if you disagree with my obviously correct interpretation of the rules of etiquette.
 
Not that into L5R, and I know that rokugan is not much like the japan it's very loosly based on. For some reason I just didn't understand that rokugani Geisha were not the quite respectable and often chaste and well educated courtesans of real life. I had never read anything about them in any rule books or internet discussions and since the codes of honor in L5R didn't seem to conflict with Geisha very harshly I just assumed their social status were similar to how they were in real life. I guess I will just add it to my list of problems with the setting.
In real life Geisha (and for that matter entertainers) were also non-people and were not part of proper hierarchy.

Just what samurai do in free time and what samurai do in service to his lord were very separate lives so Geisha and other Entertainers could be famous, wealthy, etc... but they never could rise above they stature because it intruded on that other life.

It's exactly same in Rokugan. Geisha can be famous, cherished, be hotly contested by several honorable samurai of high status... in their "free time". Rest of the time she still would be filthy eta to be cut down if stay in the way by the very same samurai that showered her with gifts just a hour ago.
 
I still wish we were taking Auntie. Going to Court without your expert Court person strikes me as not unlike going to war without your warlord.

And she'd love going to the Emperor's Winter Court, it'd be something nice we could do to repay her knocking "Patron of the Arts" completely out of the park and immortalizing Tsubaki forever in drama.

And...look, one of our Clan's things is we're associated with geisha. Everyone knows this. It's not something we can hide. So let's own it. Just like the Scorpion do with being untrustworthy dishonorable scum, or the Yasuki do with being money grubbing merchants.

"Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armor yourself in it, and it can never be used to hurt you."

That sort of thing.
 
Anyway, the point of the whole Geisha thing is that Geisha are classy nonpersons. This gives them some options that regular samurai CAN'T take....but they are also uniquely vulnerable because they have none of the protections that even a farmer would have had at court.

Its a true OCP game, in that there will be scandal, confusion, opportunity and massive risks.

If you bring her you'd have to have an aggressive courtly play to capitalize on it, and leverage the shock.

You also have to account for where normally your diplomat, as samurai, has to cross a certain level of offense before a duel is a thing...a nonperson would simply be cut down on the spot and then the servants ordered to clean up the mess.
 
Anyway, the point of the whole Geisha thing is that Geisha are classy nonpersons. This gives them some options that regular samurai CAN'T take....but they are also uniquely vulnerable because they have none of the protections that even a farmer would have had at court.
...
You also have to account for where normally your diplomat, as samurai, has to cross a certain level of offense before a duel is a thing...a nonperson would simply be cut down on the spot and then the servants ordered to clean up the mess.

It is really bad form to kill a Geisha, the kind of bad form which is liable to be lethal to the offender. Worse still is to kill a Geisha in a major court like this, especially if she hasn't given offense and the thing is Hatsuyuki is experienced enough to avoid giving that kind of actionable offense. Whats more to quote page 147 of Sword & Fan "...The Crab have a stronger need for geisha to assist with courtly arts during diplomatic meetings..." It is fairly common to involve Geisha in affairs of Court, it is not uncommon to lean on them to assist. What we are doing is pushing the envelope in the degree to which we are using Geisha, but it isn't completely without precedent.
 
I'm hearing "if Hatsuyuki gets killed, we'll get a whole bunch of political influence out of it."

That's not the same as, "Hatsuyuki won't be killed."
I am saying that somebody would have to be suicidal, unfortunately not that big a deterrent in l5r, and willing to deeply shame themselves and their Clan to kill her. It isn't something that is likely to happen, especially given that one is traditionally disarmed during formal court events.
 
Mind you, she's certainly skilled enough to avoid making such a mistake.

But the point being pushed is that it's a significant risk, and that means you need to actually have an objective where she'd be the best possible candidate as chief diplomat. As hinin, she can dodge around the usual rules of propriety to some extent, for instance, talking about matters with samurai which would be too shameful to discuss with any other caste, so if for instance, you want to help the Crab by having her spread the idea of increasing Jade supply around...she could do it without causing anyone deadly offense.

If you have no specific play that demands such a stunt, then a more traditional diplomatic choice is better as a court defense option.

Like the QM said earlier, Warrior Yojimbo are the 'defensive' option. Loyal or Diplomatic yojimbo are the half offense/half defense option(in that they protect in some angles, expose vulnerabilities in others, but have aggressive social options), while Clever or Sneaky yojimbo are the aggressive option good at seeing a specific goal to fruition, but which also leaves many vulnerabilities open.

For advisors Hatsuyuki is the aggressive option, because defensively she represents, on her own, numerous avenues by which we can be 'attacked' or cause offense, but is also incredibly skilled if we want to push an agenda.

The Boss meanwhile, is the halfway option, since he's cunning, famed, respected and practiced enough to do all the roles decently, but leaves a vulnerability if complicated shit happens at home.
 
Like the QM said earlier, Warrior Yojimbo are the 'defensive' option. Loyal or Diplomatic yojimbo are the half offense/half defense option(in that they protect in some angles, expose vulnerabilities in others, but have aggressive social options), while Clever or Sneaky yojimbo are the aggressive option good at seeing a specific goal to fruition, but which also leaves many vulnerabilities open.

I think you may have gotten mixed up, here is what the QM said.

Picking your best warriors isn't likely to appear belligerent, it would more likely appear respectable and strong.

Loyal warriors is best defensive option.

Most honorable is half respect, half defensive.

Diplomatic or Clever may give you special options.
 
Look I am the guy who wanted to just try and survive this court and not do anything big. However in the end Patron of the Arts and Spy on Nobles won the vote due to their use at court. If we turtle up now at court we will be wasting a lot of the potential of those options and missing out on the domestic turn one options. Essentially we have already made the investment let's try and get something for it. If you want some specific objectives I can give you a few.

Emperor - Build personal relationship and assert absolute loyalty.

Crab - Establish trade ties and negotiate possible military/training assistance.

Crane - Calm them and make clear we aren't enemies. If possible, establish trade relationship (We want to sell the Crab their rice). Get them interested in the arts scene.

Scorpion - Assert ourselves and establish a working relationship. Establish trade relationship and possibly figure out smuggling scene. Specifically we are more than happy to not only overlook, but facilitate the smuggling of their less offensive items for a price.

Minor Clans - They may not attend, but if they do things are a bit complicated. We want to make sure that they don't get mad at us for being buddies with the Crab when the Crab are leaning heavily on them. We do want to establish strong trade relations with them, in particular we want to be their middleman. This is a more long term thing, but some kind of agreement to help each other would be really good. It might simply be a general trade zone type thing, it could be a mutual defense pact. Whatever it is, the fact is that we minor clans are way outclassed by the major clans and by banding together can come far closer to parity
 
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However in the end Patron of the Arts and Spy on Nobles won the vote due to their use at court.
I assure you that I didn't vote for Patron of the Arts for Winter Court, though the lower infamy is a bonus that takes no further investment to make use of.

I voted for Patron of the Arts because entertainment is one of the surest paths to influencing large numbers of people - see that trait we just gained and its implications! - and I damned well want Hatsuyuki alive to leverage that advantage.

That it also makes us a fair bit of money? Not to be dismissed, either.
 
I think you may have gotten mixed up, here is what the QM said.
*Makes grumbling noises about trying to reference stuff on mobile*

I assure you that I didn't vote for Patron of the Arts for Winter Court, though the lower infamy is a bonus that takes no further investment to make use of.

I voted for Patron of the Arts because entertainment is one of the surest paths to influencing large numbers of people - see that trait we just gained and its implications! - and I damned well want Hatsuyuki alive to leverage that advantage.

That it also makes us a fair bit of money? Not to be dismissed, either.
Similarly. It was about reducing a disadvantage, not creating an advantage where Winter Court was concerned(or we'd be dealing with all kinds of sniggers from the various clans considering this newbie who associates with whores, how scandalous).

Well, all the money it's going to return does help.
 
Yeah, going through Sword and Fan "bring your geisha to court" doesn't seem like the iconoclastic gambit people are making it out to be, especially since it'd be unlikely just she came along. The old girl's smart, knows where she can and can't push the rules, and is our strongest courtier option with the added benefit that she opens up all sorts of back channels. Seriously, having an okaasan and a handful of her best girls on call seems like a no brainer.

Edited in votes:
[X] The most skilled in battle
[X] Stay with Hatsuyuki. She is the most experienced person you have with dealing with nobles, and the Silken Song's recent performance should have won you the Glory that you need to get away with it.
-[X] And a contingent of her most polished girls.
 
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Yeah, going through Sword and Fan "bring your geisha to court" doesn't seem like the iconoclastic gambit people are making it out to be, especially since it'd be unlikely just she came along. The old girl's smart, knows where she can and can't push the rules, and is our strongest courtier option with the added benefit that she opens up all sorts of back channels. Seriously, having an okaasan and a handful of her best girls on call seems like a no brainer.
The problem isn't her coming along, the problem is having her there in an official capacity.

Anyway, we've come up with some decent ideas for gifts for everyone but the Emperor and the Crab. Maybe a boat figurine carved from jade for the Emperor? I'm thinking it would count as art and not something practical.
 
Probably not jade, but more something with some symbolic value? Like the figurine being carved from the rudder of the boat that carried him to safety?
 
Emperor, the best one I've seen is something memorializing Yoshitsune.

Because its a secret between us about its relevance, it pleases him a lot...and the other clans have no idea what the fuck is going on so they'd be wasting a lot of intrigue effort figuring out why the boss man is so pleased(because we remembered) AND sorrowful(because his friend died saving him).
 
The problem isn't her coming along, the problem is having her there in an official capacity.
Anyone at the court is there in an official capacity though, it's an exclusive invite only white elephant. :V

I guess the question is does the option as written mean we ignore what the combined Etiquette skills of Tsubaki and Auntie would say about marching in to the court and presenting her as our right hand woman and someone you should treat like an equal all you samurai that are now sharpening swords and looking very cross, or do we need a write in to specifically define her relationship vis a vis high court functions: namely that she's an intermediary, the creature we've contracted to provide entertainment since oh woe is us, brand new clan, all we have are expensive, talented young women to sing you songs and listen to your every woe while you wait for Spot-face McDaimyo and if by chance something you want to ask isn't something you could ever possibly raise with a real person, well that's fine, because she doesn't count. Right?
 
Eh, those are some solid fixes. The only other thing that really strikes me as a bit odd is that a Mirumoto is in charge of a diplomatic envoy instead of a Kitsuki, but it's the Dragon, they're inscrutable at the best of times.

Other than that, a cursory glance at the timeline indicates that the Akodo family should presently be hip deep in the beginning of a ten year war against the corrupted Shimizu family. They're the lost 5th Family of the Lion who fell to the taint of Jigoku, and according to the wiki they died out after a ten year war against the Akodo over the Shireki Plain.

Year 913, Kitsuki are a brand new family. They will be present but are not yet important enough to put in charge!

I will look up the Shimizu, that may change the diplomatic situation.
 
But the point being pushed is that it's a significant risk, and that means you need to actually have an objective where she'd be the best possible candidate as chief diplomat.

Well, I kinda do?

-Tsubaki needs a husband
-We need for the Scorpion to please not try and cause problems for our tiny Clan Underhand-dono.

Getting a Scorpion husband kills two birds with one stone.

And yes, that isn't the end of all problems with the Scorpion forever, yes, the Scorpion will pick somebody who's going to try and push the Scorpion agenda for the Namazu with non stop whispers in Tsubaki's ears and...ahem, other methods.

But better to have Scorpions inside the tent pissing out than outside pissing in.

And I chose Auntie for this because I have faith in her ability to be as crafty as any Scorpion, because I doubt the Clan that revels in their reputation of the nasty people who do things proper bushido following samurai won't do is going to get their drawers in a wad having to deal with someone of somewhat questionable status, and I trust Auntie to ensure whoever gets picked as husband won't make Tsubaki's life miserable while he's covertly pushing the Scorpion agenda for the Catfish.
 
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Eh, those are some solid fixes. The only other thing that really strikes me as a bit odd is that a Mirumoto is in charge of a diplomatic envoy instead of a Kitsuki, but it's the Dragon, they're inscrutable at the best of times.

Other than that, a cursory glance at the timeline indicates that the Akodo family should presently be hip deep in the beginning of a ten year war against the corrupted Shimizu family. They're the lost 5th Family of the Lion who fell to the taint of Jigoku, and according to the wiki they died out after a ten year war against the Akodo over the Shireki Plain.

OK, so having read up on the Shimizu, they exist, they're warring with the Akodo, and nobody knows that they are Maho-tsukai.

Congratulations, @Emerald Oracle , for your help in making sure that all of my ideas are timeline-compliant, you are the lucky winners of a Free Raise, to be used on whatever roll you deem necessary.

Congratulations, players. There will be a secret maho-tsukai family of Lion samurai attending Winter Court.
 
Anyone at the court is there in an official capacity though, it's an exclusive invite only white elephant. :V

I guess the question is does the option as written mean we ignore what the combined Etiquette skills of Tsubaki and Auntie would say about marching in to the court and presenting her as our right hand woman and someone you should treat like an equal all you samurai that are now sharpening swords and looking very cross, or do we need a write in to specifically define her relationship vis a vis high court functions: namely that she's an intermediary, the creature we've contracted to provide entertainment since oh woe is us, brand new clan, all we have are expensive, talented young women to sing you songs and listen to your every woe while you wait for Spot-face McDaimyo and if by chance something you want to ask isn't something you could ever possibly raise with a real person, well that's fine, because she doesn't count. Right?

You can absolutely do the latter.

With that said, Auntie Hatsuyuki remains the 'shenanigans option'. Bringing her will result in trouble, also potentially in opportunity.

Boss Koibu is the safest option. He's slightly less wily than Hatsuyuki, but significantly more publicly acceptable.

Jiro is the 'train your future subordinate daimyo' option. He won't be very helpful, but it would be a terrific learning experience for him.
 
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