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Indestructible Spirit (Kancolle AU)

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Mega1987 said:
Please.... China? Helping Japan?
I dont think, even in mankinds dark times that the CPC will even aid japan.

Hell. They're might be the one that needed help and will take aid from anyone except from japan.
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At least it has the depth. If Chinese coastal cities were wrecked by Abyssal attacks with huge humanitarian disaster, the same should be applied to Japanese cities before they figured out how to summon the ship girls. But unlike Japan, China can retreat into the hinterland and lick their wounds while Japan... not so much.

Heck, CPC might aid Japan first so they can rub it on the Japanese face. They can be petty, but they're not stupid.
 
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Alagon said:
I think the only reason they would need is quote Reasons unquote, China and Japan REALLY don't like each other.
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Yeah... no brainer there. But then again, doing something to temper with your enemy's pride and so they will never live it down is something that a culture which values the concept of 'face' likes to do.

Not helping your enemies is good. But helping your enemies so you can embarrass them is even better.
 
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    • Whelp, that's a lot to read over.

    After I get back from lunch, I'll reply to everything but the whole China-Japan thing, since that is something better fitted for Current Affairs.
     
    I'm pretty sure that China would help Japan with convoys. Japan and its shipgirl fleet falling would lead to open season on the coastal areas of China. And cities like Shanghai or Beijing and all the other Chinese port cities are not cities the PRC would like to see reduced to smoking rubble. Because the effects of that would definitely be a serious blow to China.

    China relies a lot on maritime trade, as the west of China doesn't lend itself well to transport routes. If they want to keep up their trade with Europe they will have to built ten thousands of kilometers of railway, often through harsh terrain. That's not something even a country like China that can throw millions of workers at this problem will be able to complete quickly. Same goes for Russia, they need shipping and the western part of Russia ia already pretty well-connected to Europe by rail. In the meantime until the rails are built, their convoys will need shipgirl escorts. Escorts they can get from either Russia (but in smaller numbers) or Japan. China will swallow its pride there and ask for Japanese help in exchange for ensuring a steady flow of resources to Japan where Japan will swallow its pride to accept the deal help for resources. This way they can continue to hate each other after things are over. Japan helped China to not see its economy collapse and China helped Japan to not fall prey to famines. They're even, so now they can go back to hate each other for older stuff. It'd be a good example of teeth-clenched teamwork. Going at things alone is madness, so you will ally with that barbarian from across the sea, as they have something you need while you have something they need and both sides understand that this alliance is temporary.

    As for the UK being heavily taxed, well, for one they'd also have to keep Ireland under their umbrella and the channel tunnel, while being a lifeline, would likely not suffice to ensure that Britain can get everything it needs in the quantities it needs. Some things can't be imported in the quantities needed without ships. For example oil and gas. Offshore platforms are big, stationary goals so the world would rely on the oil fields of the middle east and pipelines would have to be constructed to reduce the dependence on tankers. Again, not something that can be done within short amounts of time. Also, while the French and Italian surface navies are likely strong enough to at least secure some routes in the Med, Great Britain wouldn't see a whole lot of surface help. France would rely on Britain securing the Channel while it defends its Atlantic coast. The Deutsche Marine can basically throw a whole fucking lot of U-boats into the fray, but when it comes to surface vessels Britain won't see much coming from Germany. 2 massive battleships, several smaller battleships, some cruisers, somewhere around 50 destroyers and an aircraft carrier. And while Bismarck and Tirpitz may be the biggest battleships fielded by any European power, they're also just two ships. A fleet in being doesn't hinder the abyss. Adding the Hochseeflotte would give some more battleships, but they are older models and won't be as useful for convoy duty and such, mostly relegated to coastal defense. Italy is tied down with holding the Med open. Spain didn't have much of a navy back then and that would be about it. Russia is already fighting on 4 or even 5 fronts, depending on the question if the Abyss can operate in the Caspian Sea. There won't be much help, if any, coming from there.

    Maritime trade on the whole is a big deal and Britain was twice brought close to collapsing when their trade was severely hit. So they will want to ensure it doesn't happen a third time.
     
    wildredlifer said:
    How come I get the feeling that Kongou's sisters had their own Iron-bottom sound between them.
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    Sixpack said:
    Yeah, I can see them having an ugly slugging match in world war two somewhere.
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    Heh...heh.

    Amancai said:
    Probably off the Malayan coast. In OTL, PoW and Repulse were within 6nm from Chokai, which was acting in support of Kongo during the night before the two British capital ships were sunk.
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    Possibly.

    SV5195R said:
    Oh Indy... it seems you just fell into the same trap as Hiei.

    This can only end in (more) tears.

    P.S. Also, I take it that Irresistible and Implacable were never retrofitted as battleships during their service life?
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    They were actually, more or less. Difference being, the British didn't actually redesignate them as battleships. There's a disconnect in the Royal Navy vs the IJN there. To their command, while the Indestructible-class may have been refit and upgraded to the point they were more or less equal to the Hiei-class, they are still fundamentally battlecruiser hulls. Indy considering herself a battleship is her own thing, really. Clearly, the Japanese would do the same, since they did with Hiei and it's the same hull right?

    Selonianth said:
    Between Hiei... and the admirals... Methinks the two sets of Kongou sisters met in THIS life. And it did NOT go well.
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    Actually, they haven't met in this life before. Note Kirishima's reaction to Hiei.

    Jrin said:
    My, what kind of havoc Irresistible and Implacable had unleashed, i do hope the battles are AU enough to change the war on the British side. Oh sure the Americans would had their glory.
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    Selonianth said:
    ... The... what?
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    Jrin's talking about WW2 here. And as I said before, the war didn't go exactly the same. Especially in regards to the greater Kongou Indestructible family.

    cswvna said:
    There's a logical knot I feel I have to raise about the delays that lead to Kongou becoming Indestructible. OTL, IJN Kongou was launched sixteen months after her keel being laid, and completed after thirty-one months. Hiei was laid ten months later, launched in twelve-and-a-half months, and her total time to completion was thirty-three months exactly. (A little under a year after Kongou.)

    So with Hiei as baseline, and the same design, how does Vickers screw things up so badly? A shipyard cannot afford to have its docks and slips tied up for so long, not only because they have other ships to build, but because it can ruin their reputation. She was likely launched as Kongou without too much delay, and the majority of the delay must have been after.

    I can only think that it must have been political, with some bribery thrown into the mix. After her sale to the RN, those delays would have, must have, simply evaporated. In other words, Japan was bilked out of a battlecruiser.

    Proving it then would have been unfeasable and distasteful for Japan. Proving it now, or at least arguing the logic to Indestructible? Well...
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    Starfield said:
    Well, googling the 1910s in Great Britain reveal that the 1910-1914 period was filled with political unrest and strikes (google: The Great Unrest). I can easily imagine the shipyards being hit by a major strike.
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    Agelastus said:
    The Japanese have already changed the original design from 12" to 14" guns with Kongou; perhaps you could have them hear about the 15" guns on the Queen Elizabeths and demand another redesign. They assume that this can be done quickly as the change from 12" to 14" didn't delay construction (thanks to how early the change was made and due to some herculean efforts from the drafting teams) but, of course, it can't as Kongo's nearly ready for launching or possibly has even been launched.

    To be honest, changing Kongou to 15" is the only way I can imagine her getting any sister ships or being kept on post Washington/London. 14" is an oddball calibre for the Royal Navy of the time that only makes sense for a wartime emergency or a purchase to keep a vessel out of problematical hands (such as the purchase that gave the RN a pair of 10" pre-dreadnoughts at the time of the Russo-Japanese War.)

    Actually, if Kongou was bought into the Royal Navy I can see her ending up in Chilean hands post-war as a substitute for Eagle/Almirante Cochrane. The Chileans said they'd complete the purchase of Eagle if she was converted back to a battleship - as a 14" gun vessel Kongo's a decent substitute and Britain could do with the currency or debt forgiveness involved.

    As for her sisters, Kongou/Invincible would be an extra but to get them you'd probably have to replace two other vessels as the RN wouldn't be getting any more money. Depending on the time frame either Malaya and a Revenge (possible), two of the Revenge class (improbable) or Renown and Repulse (likely - the DNC can just use Kongou/Indestructible's drawings rather than having to hastily draft a new design when Fisher revives the Royal Navy's interest in battlecruisers in 1914 - which otl had died with the 1911-12 program that produced Tiger.)

    Of course, with the above, Kongou probably becomes only a half-sister to Hiei, not a full sister; I would imagine the Japanese would see sense with Kongou's delay and complete their three with the original 14" guns (particularly as the 14" mountings and barrels would already have been under construction - they're the items with the longest lead time of anything in battleship construction.)

    -------------------------------------

    Anyway, please don't take any of the above as criticism - I'm really enjoying the story and eagerly awaiting updates as it is.
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    I will freely admit that the how of Kongou being delayed is something I'm not planning on touching on, overly much. Suffice to say, something happened to keep her in Britain, and so forth. Mostly because that's not intended to be a focus of the story, and I should note that even the Japanese Admiral is firmly of the belief that it wasn't political wrangling to rob Japan.

    That being said, I like the 'combination of strikes and upgunning Kongou' if I had to do something.

    Insofar as her sisters, as with the delays, I didn't map out which ships they could have theoretically replaced (certainly not Renown/Repulse since Renown herself has already featured twice). At least, that they could have replaced when built, as the first chapter indicates how they survived to WW2 at least.

    Skywalker_T-65 said:
    For when Japan modernized her Hiei-class battlecruisers into fast battleships, the Royal Navy- with ships that were nearly identical -decided the best option was to do the same, and sacrifice three of the Revenge-class battleships instead, to keep to the treaties.
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    Hypothetically, one could argue they replaced Malaya/a Revenge, but that's like I said, something I haven't mapped out quite yet.

    And I was already running on the assumption that Hiei/Indy fit more as half-sisters in design. Even working on a model of a hypothetical British-modernized Kongou/Indy, for an RP I'm in. Sadly I can't draw humanoid figures to save my life so unless I pick up a fanartist or two, we won't have anything on that front. That being said, half-siblings or not, I've made a point that Indy and her full sisters tend to look at the younger BCs in the Royal Navy as sisters (Hood, Tiger, probably Renown/Repulse to some extent) so it's not hard to argue they view their half-sisters as full ones.

    Hiei definitely does.

    Shaithan said:
    Well, the problem with that scenario is that the US is as far as I am aware actually bound by treaty to protect Japan in case of war. So if Japan calls upon them because they can't defend themselves the US actually will have to send a relief force.

    Furthermore, it's pretty much impossible to defend the whole coastline of the US anyway, especially now that the US Navy will be operating from the position of the inferior navy. The abyss has them beat when it comes to ships and planes and as far as I can tell they show no signs of running out of either.

    If the US has shipgirls, they will likely focus on defending key areas and military harbors from whence they sortie their shipgirls to try and head off abyssal incursions. If they don't have shipgirls, the US better hope it can produce high-tech ships capable of fighting the abyss faster than the abyss can sink them. Also, if the US has shipgirls, it can more easily justify stationing them in Japan, they're there to help with convoy escort duty that keeps an allied nation from starving to death or getting bombed into the ground by the abyss. If they don't have shipgirls it's easier to explain not sending a relief force with the simple statement that sending ships out on the sea is too likely to see the loss of the whole taskforce before it ever gets near Japan.

    The abyssal war likely saw most of their surface and submarine assets sunk, especially the aircraft carriers. The only thing the US can take home as consolation is that other navies will likely not have carriers left, either. Or much of any type of ship, really.

    If what I think is true, then you can only get a shipgirl once in this world. Once sunk they're lost forever. The US Admirality gains precisely nothing by ignoring an allied nation that has a sizeable navy they will very likely not want to miss if they ever get to the point of doing counterstrikes and working on regaining the seas.

    Furthermore, by virtue of cutting all sea trade alone we're likely already looking at a tremendous humanitarian catastrophe, especially in the developing countries. And that's without factoring attacks on harbors in. The death toll is at the lowest estimation already eclipsing WW II.

    I'm sorry, but I can't see the US public and government going and saying "Let everyone else perish, so we are safe!" It would mean that the US turns its back on a world that's currently at war with an enemy they neither understand nor can they predict them. They'd abandon old allies in a global conflict that won't care one bit about their desire to not be part of it. Like it or not, the US is already at war and they will have to look out for their allies so they don't see them dying and taking a sizeable fleet with them. And, the abyss will attack the US, too. Mercilessly and ruthlessly. The US will face considerable losses, no matter if they try in vain to protect a gargantuan coastline or not. The US will have to learn something from the Russians. Namely how to take horrifying losses that see cities razed and still keep fighting. Protecting the US and the US alone will not see a victory for the US, merely a dragged out, brutal and bloody defeat.
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    Suffice to say there are reasons the US isn't getting involved in Japan, as of yet. Spoilery reasons though, so I can't give this the reply it probably deserves.

    Amancai said:
    Speaking of Russia, that country is traditionally a land power with vast resources and industrial output. Having Abyssal wrecking havoc on the coastal area is unfortunate, but its continental trade should be relatively unaffected.

    TBH, I don't think Japanese situation is too dire even if they're an island nation. Surely they have a strong force of ship girls to keep supply lines between home islands, Korean peninsular and Vladivostok open. Geographically, Sea of Japan is practically their own backyard with restrictive access from the Pacific with Sakhalin and Japan itself as the barriers. It makes me worry how they're going to sortie far out if they can't even secure that patch of sea.

    Same goes to the English Channel, North Sea, Baltic Sea and the Meds. These are area with supposedly strong WW2 navies.

    And don't start with China. While it has no ship in ww2 to be summoned as ship girls, its industrial capacity is not a thing to be laugh at, unless CPC is being deliberately obtuse and refuse to help Japan for whatever the reason is.

    Nevertheless, MOAR!!!!
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    China's actually a fun situation, if I choose to take the story in that direction. Being as any Chinese ship girls would likely end up in the RoC instead of the PRC.

    That being said, that would be a long time in the future if at all. Gotta focus on Indy for now.


    (my dear lord that was long)
     
    Shaithan said:
    Well, the problem with that scenario is that the US is as far as I am aware actually bound by treaty to protect Japan in case of war.
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    Yeah.

    We're also bound by NATO to assist them, probably also willing to help Panama guard the canal because lord knows they can't do so with just a few patrol boats against Abyssals, have to keep the Middle East and the oil there flowing, as the only other naval power in that area that can do more than just brush their teeth without US assistance is Iran, guard the US coasts, and for good measure, keep a reserve on hand in case of emergencies.

    At the moment, the US Navy total ship strength is, 272 combat vessels as of September of this year.

    You can see why they might not respond too quickly to Japanese requests for aid, what with them being tied down all over the place.
     
    Night_stalker said:
    Yeah.

    We're also bound by NATO to assist them, probably also willing to help Panama guard the canal because lord knows they can't do so with just a few patrol boats against Abyssals, have to keep the Middle East and the oil there flowing, as the only other naval power in that area that can do more than just brush their teeth without US assistance is Iran, guard the US coasts, and for good measure, keep a reserve on hand in case of emergencies.

    At the moment, the US Navy total ship strength is, 272 combat vessels as of September of this year.

    You can see why they might not respond too quickly to Japanese requests for aid, what with them being tied down all over the place.
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    And adding to the probable losses, the US Navy will most likely be reduced to a glorfied Coast Guard in the beginning stages of the war. Later, it's very possible that the US will produce a lot of ships, but that takes time and shipyards. Time the US may have had, shipyards in the numbers needed? Not so much. Well, at least the Rust Belt will be happy with the need for new steel mills for massive warship production.

    As for the middle east, it's likely that at least the Med and the waters around the Arabian peninsula won't need American help, Italy and France will likely keep a lid on things (with a bit of help from Greece and Turkey) with their shipgirls and the Black Sea will see Russian presence. Also, at least the European powers will be very cosy with Iran. Iran can supply a whole lot of oil to them, something that wll make them happy.

    The US Navy, even with the full number of ships as shipgirls it had during WW2 will not be able to be everywhere or defend every important port at home. I mean, take the US mainland, that's at least 20 major cities they have to defend, plus a whole lot of smaller towns. That's basically impossible, the US Navy can only react to incursions.

    All in all, the US likely has the problem of standing there and seeing that everywhere is in danger and protecting everywhere is nigh impossible.
     
    Acutally, Sky already spoiled the big issue I suspect: "We haven't summoned all our..." was from the British Admiral. it likey takes TIME for the US to summon all their ships, and they're still spamming away. And if US loses Sea-tac, Pearl, Dutch Harbor, Japan's beyond screwed. So's China. They _need the US FOOD._. What Japan needs the most is convoys... and well, if I was the US, I'd spam the 19 (21, if partial ship construction counts) BB's, the 3 CB's(Per pro, Hawaii showed up, though I suspect that since no mention was made of Kentucky or Illions, they haven't been yet and well... um.) , the horde of CV's first, then start working the way down. You DO realize that includes 60+ CVE, around 30 CV, (more, acutally, but I don't have my numbers handy and don't feel like wikiwalking), at least 100 CA/CL, plus... jeeze, upwards of a k worth of DD's, and I don't think anyone has a solid number on how many DE's... I agree with a poster above that yes, the US is treaty (NOT NATO, Japan is NOT a member state of NATO, it was of the old PATO, and several others) bound (and morally bound for reasons that are beyond the discussion of this fic), to defend Japan, but how many ships HAVE the US sent, etc, etc, what political games are in the US, et al... how many LOSSES did the US take trying to do exactly that already?


    We don't know the state of the USN non OR shipgirl fleet, we don't know the status of the USAF< etc, etc, or what else the US is doing.
     
    I cant understand the insistence to secure supplies from US thousands of miles away. You only need to cross the Tsushima Straits to the tip of Korean Peninsula and get supplies from mainland Asia, or hundreds of miles to Vladivostok. Both of which are much closer to Japan anyway.

    Its not like food production from Russia cant feed the Far East.

    Before Japan project their shipgirls into the Pacific, it should be more than logical for them to secure their west coast first.
     
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    Amancai said:
    I cant understand the insistence to secure supplies from US thousands of miles away. You only need to cross the Tsushima Straits to the tip of Korean Peninsula and get supplies from mainland Asia, or hundreds of miles to Vladivostok. Both of which are much closer to Japan anyway.

    Its not like food production from Russia cant feed the Far East.

    Before Japan project their shipgirls into the Pacific, it should be more than logical for them to secure their west coast first.
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    The Japanese, China and Russia don't have the very best of relationships. The US is the friendliest country that the Japanese have right now and the US would be more than willing to help out the Japanese. Although I could be wrong. They could also be getting some from Russia and China and it isn't stated.
     
    MageOhki said:
    Acutally, Sky already spoiled the big issue I suspect: "We haven't summoned all our..." was from the British Admiral. it likey takes TIME for the US to summon all their ships, and they're still spamming away. And if US loses Sea-tac, Pearl, Dutch Harbor, Japan's beyond screwed. So's China. They _need the US FOOD._. What Japan needs the most is convoys... and well, if I was the US, I'd spam the 19 (21, if partial ship construction counts) BB's, the 3 CB's(Per pro, Hawaii showed up, though I suspect that since no mention was made of Kentucky or Illions, they haven't been yet and well... um.) , the horde of CV's first, then start working the way down. You DO realize that includes 60+ CVE, around 30 CV, (more, acutally, but I don't have my numbers handy and don't feel like wikiwalking), at least 100 CA/CL, plus... jeeze, upwards of a k worth of DD's, and I don't think anyone has a solid number on how many DE's... I agree with a poster above that yes, the US is treaty (NOT NATO, Japan is NOT a member state of NATO, it was of the old PATO, and several others) bound (and morally bound for reasons that are beyond the discussion of this fic), to defend Japan, but how many ships HAVE the US sent, etc, etc, what political games are in the US, et al... how many LOSSES did the US take trying to do exactly that already?


    We don't know the state of the USN non OR shipgirl fleet, we don't know the status of the USAF< etc, etc, or what else the US is doing.
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    That is part of it, yes. Then again, I've been hinting that it's not just as simple as 'summon ship girl, PROFIT!'. Remember Indy and her problems with using her rigging? I operate on the assumption that you can hypothetically summon as many kanmusu as you have resources for at once, but that doesn't change the fact that- much as a real ship and crew -you have a 'working up' period. They have to train on how to use their rigging and such before they're combat capable. That takes time, even if you have certified Mom Boats like Hosho around to help.

    Which, incidentally, means the only navies that have hypothetically summoned every last ship they can, are smaller ones like Greece and Turkey. Bigger navies (RN, IJN, USN, possibly Germany/Italy/Russia) are likely to take time to summon every ship they possibly can. Bigger the navy, bigger the problem. Resources and training are a bottleneck on how fast one can hypothetically spam out kanmusu.

    'course, that's not the only problem in Freedom Land, as will come up later- probably the second Arc, once we've dealt with the Indy situation a bit more. There's a reason I haven't said anything on the state of the USN/USAF/etc, yet. And that's because for now, the story is by necessity focused on Indy and reactions to her. The greater Abyssal War isn't needed quite yet, though hints will be dropped here and there.

    Amancai said:
    I cant understand the insistence to secure supplies from US thousands of miles away. You only need to cross the Tsushima Straits to the tip of Korean Peninsula and get supplies from mainland Asia, or hundreds of miles to Vladivostok. Both of which are much closer to Japan anyway.

    Its not like food production from Russia cant feed the Far East.

    Before Japan project their shipgirls into the Pacific, it should be more than logical for them to secure their west coast first.
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    This too. As previously mentioned- and let's try to avoid getting too deep into it again, since we've already had a mod message on it once -despite the fact that China/Japan/Russia don't particularly like each other, they won't turn down supplying each other. Japan has the ships to make up for China's total lack of non-conventional forces (I operate on the assumption that, since kanmusu are WW2 and older only so far, all the Chinese girls would be loyal to the RoC first), and Russia's need to cover several fronts.

    And they have the supplies to support Japan.

    Mutual dislike can, and I imagine would, be put aside in favor of y'know, surviving.

    pharaoh122 said:
    The Japanese, China and Russia don't have the very best of relationships. The US is the friendliest country that the Japanese have right now and the US would be more than willing to help out the Japanese. Although I could be wrong. They could also be getting some from Russia and China and it isn't stated.
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    We are certainly the most friendly, and I imagine US supplies are getting to Japan.

    Much as with the US problems, where Japan is being supplied from hasn't been mentioned because it hasn't really had a reason to come up yet, since Indy's the focus at the moment. Though suffice to say, Russia/China are helping. To some extent or another.

    still_guns said:
    How on EARTH did this escape my attention? XD
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    Heh. Well, glad you've found it now.

    ALL: If all goes well, I'll get the next chapter up today. This much discussion has really lit a fire under the muse. More discussion=more inspiration after all!

    EDIT: And for those curious about the Greater Abyssal War, I'll likely do omakes on occasion, from the smaller navies. I've already got stuff in mind for the Nordics (Sweden/Norway more specific) for instance.
     
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    Skywalker_T-65 said:
    Much as with the US problems, where Japan is being supplied from hasn't been mentioned because it hasn't really had a reason to come up yet, since Indy's the focus at the moment. Though suffice to say, Russia/China are helping. To some extent or another.
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    Granted, in terms of naval capability, Russia can't help much on the Pacific theater. The Pacific Fleet focuses more on submarines, and while those are very likely to be used (especially those Project 949/949A/949AM SSGNs, since a Granit or an Onyx to the face would ruin anyone's day, even though hitting human-sized targets with them would be very difficult), the surface component only has a single Project 1164 missile cruiser and six Project 956 and Project 1155 destroyers (plus a few more in storage), and those would be stretching thin, considering that Russian Far East relies on the sea trade and sea transport more heavily than other regions of the country, has several (relatively) large coastal settlements, and nowhere near enough people. (At least most of Okhotsk Sea freezes in the winter). Moreover, depending on whether the location where a shipgirl is summoned is dependent on which region the ship was last active in its service life, the Russian Far East is unlikely to get shipgirls (at least initially; now, the Baltic, Black Sea and Northern Fleets are probably going to get a few for obvious reasons).

    Though I imagine we'd use a few of our LSTs in the supply convoys.
    EDIT: And for those curious about the Greater Abyssal War, I'll likely do omakes on occasion, from the smaller navies. I've already got stuff in mind for the Nordics (Sweden/Norway more specific) for instance.
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    I don't envy Norwegians. They have a small navy, a long coastline, fjords penetrating deep inland and lots of stuff at sea, inculding numerous oil drilling platforms (which would be a bitch to protect from being attacked or captured by the Abyssals).
     
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